EWU Officiating

[THEsocalledfan]

I did not see a thread focused on this, but would like to segregate some discussion.

I was listening to the presser before the 1660 feed cut out. Coach K again claimed the cut blocks on the outside were legal. Here is what I found online:

Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2016-08-03/college-football-need-know-rule-changes-2016-season

To me, this rule is confusing as hell. So, Indy and others, penalty or not? (apologize if already discussed elsewhere) And why would you make a rule so complicated?

[1993bison]

Well I haven't seen it call all year except this game and I've watched too much college football this year

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[HerdBot]

You can cut anyone anywhere as long as its straight on. Can't do it from the side. . Refs were clueless

[THEsocalledfan]

You can cut anyone anywhere as long as its straight on. That's all anyone really needs to know

Well, they were calling that and what does "However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage." even mean?

[HerdBot]

Well, they were calling that and what dose "However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage." even mean?

Not sure but Coach K called it the 10-2 rule, think steering wheel.

[thundarsdaddy]

I did not see a thread focused on this, but would like to segregate some discussion.

I was listening to the presser before the 1660 feed cut out. Coach K again claimed the cut blocks on the outside were legal. Here is what I found online:

Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2016-08-03/college-football-need-know-rule-changes-2016-season

To me, this rule is confusing as hell. So, Indy and others, penalty or not? (apologize if already discussed elsewhere) And why would you make a rule so complicated?

This is a great question!
I dont have an answer, especially ever since the EWU game, I dont even know what a simple tackle is anymore, after the Field Judge threw a flag on Deluca for simply making a tackle??

But too complicated?? YES..WAY too complicated. The more they try to legislate football rules, with more verbage etc., the worse things get! As the old saying went..."the more drain pipe you add, the easier it is.....to plug up the drain".

[BisonAccountant44]

I did not see a thread focused on this, but would like to segregate some discussion.

I was listening to the presser before the 1660 feed cut out. Coach K again claimed the cut blocks on the outside were legal. Here is what I found online:

Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2016-08-03/college-football-need-know-rule-changes-2016-season

To me, this rule is confusing as hell. So, Indy and others, penalty or not? (apologize if already discussed elsewhere) And why would you make a rule so complicated?

Indy did chime in somewhere saying his guess without seeing the film was we got nailed for the crossing the los piece, which I think he said was new. I don't think that could've been true on Shepherd's, but may have been on others.

I'll admit this is one of the technical areas of the game I don't have a handle on, so I won't comment on whether they were good or bad calls. Were they visible on the webcast though? In the dome I wanted to see what happened to try and understand more, but never saw them on the replays. The closest on any was seeing enough of Shepherd to read his number at the end of that replay, but he was still standing so I assume the cut either hadn't happened yet or was very early in the play.

[BisonNation11]

Well, they were calling that and what dose "However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage." even mean?

Basically you can't come from the outside and block a guy back towards the inside. Basically, you must block in to out. From the middle of the field out to the sides. After the runner reaches the line of scrimmage, I think it's all fair as long as you're blocking in front of the defender. Like coach said, think of your hands at 10-2. That's the direction you can block below the waist, as long as it's not towards the original position of the play (in towards the center of the field) or after the runner has reached the line of scrimmage. Considering how much of a staple of this type of blocking we've used in the past, when our players and coaches are confused on the calls, I'm going with the refs don't have a clue. Indy could probably clear this all up better than I can, but this is how I understand it.

[THEsocalledfan]

That's the direction you can block below the waist, as long as it's not towards the original position of the play (in towards the center of the field) or after the runner has reached the line of scrimmage.

I really appreciate the explanation, but this still is not clear to me. I pointing out the stuff I don't get as you make it sound more complicated than you can only block in to out. It think I need examples of this that are different than only in to out.

And this is an issue; I think a lot of us are not dumb on this board. If we can't figure out out, how the hell do you expect and official to get it right?

[Bison 4 Life]

How far can a kicker be offside before kicking the ball?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RFJ_Iv4uty4/V9bT6t3HPWI/AAAAAAAAAAk/miaVfqOT-24DdUfM3fdzI89mdHMRB2vUgCL0B/w916-h518-no/2016-09-12.jpg

[BisonNation11]

How far can a kicker be offside before kicking the ball?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RFJ_Iv4uty4/V9bT6t3HPWI/AAAAAAAAAAk/miaVfqOT-24DdUfM3fdzI89mdHMRB2vUgCL0B/w916-h518-no/2016-09-12.jpg

Glad I wasn't the only one who saw this. Of course I was at home and there were a million other things to complain about. That crew needs to be suspended and go through testing again.

[THEsocalledfan]

Glad I wasn't the only one who saw this. Of course I was at home and there were a million other things to complain about. That crew needs to be suspended and go through testing again.

What conference were they from? I know last game was B1G crew.

[Jay]

How far can a kicker be offside before kicking the ball?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RFJ_Iv4uty4/V9bT6t3HPWI/AAAAAAAAAAk/miaVfqOT-24DdUfM3fdzI89mdHMRB2vUgCL0B/w916-h518-no/2016-09-12.jpg

This is not a penalty. His plant foot can cross.

[BisonNation11]

What conference were they from? I know last game was B1G crew.

I never did find out. I also didn't read every post on here either so I was hoping someone else caught it. I'm almost willing to pay Indy to show up here soon and provide us with the information we seek. :biggrin: It seems like a lot of these refs are so used to the spread it out, don't hurt me football that they don't know what to do when a team/teams play physical, smash mouth football.

[tjbison]

What conference were they from? I know last game was B1G crew.

JJ and Jeff said they were indeed MVFC refs

[thundarsdaddy]

What conference were they from? I know last game was B1G crew.

I dont know what conference, but I know the Field Judge(lady) and the Referee(white hat) were both from Michigan. We spoke to the lady at the Candlewood about 7:30PM as she was checking out. She said they were from all over the midwest, Illinois, Indiana etc. She was just going to head home via her own car...driving all night back to Michigan!! We had never heard of that before as they usually fly in, unless they come from Minnesota? Even ones who came in from Nebraska once flew out of Omaha.

[THEsocalledfan]

JJ and Jeff said they were indeed MVFC refs

In danger of being demoted to the Big Fluffy after that crap.

[ndsubison1]

I did not see a thread focused on this, but would like to segregate some discussion.

I was listening to the presser before the 1660 feed cut out. Coach K again claimed the cut blocks on the outside were legal. Here is what I found online:

Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2016-08-03/college-football-need-know-rule-changes-2016-season

To me, this rule is confusing as hell. So, Indy and others, penalty or not? (apologize if already discussed elsewhere) And why would you make a rule so complicated?

Because people who've never played football think they need to get involved and think they can "improve" the game

[THEsocalledfan]

Because people who've never played football think they need to get involved and think they can "improve" the game

And, seriously, NCAA, you can't have a rule be so complicated and expect it done right; I honestly put this more on the NCAA than the officials. (talking about the block stuff; many other things the officials deserve grief on)

[NorthernBison]

Well, they were calling that and what does "However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage." even mean?

An example would be a tackle who pulls and has nobody in front of him so he peels back to block a defender trailing the play or coming across the field. If he blocks below the waist it has to be from the front (10-2).

We had two linemen get called on the same play.

Dudzik said it's all about angles. What he didn't say is the rule is expanded this season.

Did the zebras get the calls wrong? Maybe. Some of it is judgment. Officials from different conferences call games differently.

After listening to Shawn and Timmerman, it is 100% clear to me that they spent ZERO time learning NCAA rule changes for 2016. There were 14 changes and about 5 or 6 affect play on the field.

The roughing the passer call was for a low hit. They didn't seem to even understand that there was a rule about that. The official saw it different than I did but they didn't have a clue what happened.


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[Christopher Moen]

From NDSU's stat page:

Referee: Chris La Mange
Umpire: Jim Scifres
Linesman: Jim Swider
Line judge: Denis Schinderle
Back judge: Marty Abezetian
Field judge: Nikki Randolph
Side judge: Pat Brown

I looked up a few, and from what I found, this was a MVFC crew. Not good if NDSU has to put up with this crap for at least eight more games.

In regards to Nikki Randolph, she didn't do women justice when trying to prove that they can (I believe they can) officiate college football. The penalty call on DeLuca looked like something a mother would call if their child got tackled. Football is a violent game played by big, strong dudes. However, I will credit her for calling the "simultaneous catch" when R.J. stole back the interception.

[SDbison]

This is a great question!
I dont have an answer, especially ever since the EWU game, I dont even know what a simple tackle is anymore, after the Field Judge threw a flag on Deluca for simply making a tackle??

But too complicated?? YES..WAY too complicated. The more they try to legislate football rules, with more verbage etc., the worse things get! As the old saying went..."the more drain pipe you add, the easier it is.....to plug up the drain". So how in the heck was there a penalty on the tackle by Deluca? As far as any roughness on that tackle, may as well throw a flag 50% of the time a tackle is made. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a pinky finger push makes a tackle, and 5 the average hit) that tackle might have been a 6. In no way did it deserve a roughness penalty.

[bisonp]

So how in the heck was there a penalty on the tackle by Deluca? As far as any roughness on that tackle, may as well throw a flag 50% of the time a tackle is made. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a pinky finger push makes a tackle, and 5 the average hit) that tackle might have been a 6. In no way did it deserve a roughness penalty.

And why did it take a discussion before the flag was thrown?

If you saw something, throw the flag! If not, don't throw it! Every frickin' time they had to huddle and discuss if they actually saw anything. Those guys were awful, perhaps the worst officiating I've ever seen live.

[HerdBot]

Anyone got a picture of Menard sacking the qb at the waist and they called a below the knee penalty?

[Mr Meaty]

How far can a kicker be offside before kicking the ball?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RFJ_Iv4uty4/V9bT6t3HPWI/AAAAAAAAAAk/miaVfqOT-24DdUfM3fdzI89mdHMRB2vUgCL0B/w916-h518-no/2016-09-12.jpg

I saw this also... What is the rule or margin for error? Does a kicker get more room than the gunners on each side of him?

I saw this was answered already sorry.

[ndsubison1]

An example would be a tackle who pulls and has nobody in front of him so he peels back to block a defender trailing the play or coming across the field. If he blocks below the waist it has to be from the front (10-2).

We had two linemen get called on the same play.

Dudzik said it's all about angles. What he didn't say is the rule is expanded this season.

Did the zebras get the calls wrong? Maybe. Some of it is judgment. Officials from different conferences call games differently.

After listening to Shawn and Timmerman, it is 100% clear to me that they spent ZERO time learning NCAA rule changes for 2016. There were 14 changes and about 5 or 6 affect play on the field.

The roughing the passer call was for a low hit. They didn't seem to even understand that there was a rule about that. The official saw it different than I did but they didn't have a clue what happened.


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You seriously cant low tackle a QB in the pocket? Mother of God.

[Bison 4 Life]

I saw this also... What is the rule or margin for error? Does a kicker get more room than the gunners on each side of him?

I just looked it up. Kicker is exempt.

[MrSnuffleupagus]

In regards to Nikki Randolph, she didn't do women justice when trying to prove that they can (I believe they can) officiate college football. The penalty call on DeLuca looked like something a mother would call if their child got tackled. Football is a violent game played by big, strong dudes. However, I will credit her for calling the "simultaneous catch" when R.J. stole back the interception.


lol

/10char

[Mr Meaty]

I just looked it up. Kicker is exempt.

Not to be technical but I hope it said the person kicking the ball. It was not the kicker that kicked it.

[BisonAccountant44]

You seriously cant low tackle a QB? Mother of God.

If I'm interpreting these correctly (and they're correct) you can't make first contact at or below the knee with your head or shoulder.


Low hits on the passer
This rule that protects the passer is clarified that the tackler may not legally make forcible contact against the passer at the knee or below, even if he is making a wrap-up tackle.
http://www.footballfoundation.org/tabid/567/Article/55650/Need-to-Know-Rule-Changes-for-2016-College-Football-Season.aspx


4. Low hits on the passer are clarified (Rule 9-1-9b)

The reason hits on kickers and passers are specifically called out in the rules? The defenseless nature of their positions. It's particularly complicated with passers, as they are often surrounded by eager defenders or being chased across the field.
Last year, the NCAA made it illegal to hit on or below the knee of a player in control of the ball and in a "passing posture" (the rules avoid the term "quarterback" because, particularly in college, you never know who might attempt a pass). There were exceptions to that rule, including the tackler appearing to make a bona fide attempt at a "conventional tackle."
This year, the words "without making forcible contact with the head or shoulder" were added to the "conventional tackle" exception, to make crystal clear that if a defender is coming in at the knee head- or shoulder-first, he should be flagged. So when you watch the instant replay of these fouls, watch for the contact of that head or shoulder "in the knee area or below" of the passer.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/13/12113306/college-football-rules-changes-2016

[EC8CH]

Sissiest called game ever.

It's amazing any of the players were brave enough to even attempt a block or tackle by the end of the game.

PF calls on DeLuca and Menard were trash and thank god the Grimsley targeting call was overturned otherwise it would be practically impossible to touch a receiver across the middle.

The technicalities of the low blocking calls are open for debate, but those three PF calls were absolute garbage. If that's what college football has become then it's not really football anymore.

[89MTBISON]

The hit in question here was by Menard, correct? It started at the waist, clearly seen on replay. How about the catch by EWU in the first have that the linesman marked incorrectly giving them 4th and inches instead of 4th and a yard? Why wasn't that reviewed? The targeting call on Grimsley, that was fortunately reversed, was also terrible. Worst officiated game I have ever seen.

[THEsocalledfan]

If I'm interpreting these correctly (and they're correct) you can't make first contact at or below the knee with your head or shoulder.


http://www.footballfoundation.org/tabid/567/Article/55650/Need-to-Know-Rule-Changes-for-2016-College-Football-Season.aspx


http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/13/12113306/college-football-rules-changes-2016


This stuff is so nuts. Yes, we need to keep QBs safe, but to me there is a big difference if they have the ball or not. If they don't have the ball, ok, pretty much make anything roughing even though that is tough. But if they have the ball, this is insanity.

[matt]

And why did it take a discussion before the flag was thrown?

If you saw something, throw the flag! If not, don't throw it! Every frickin' time they had to huddle and discuss if they actually saw anything. Those guys were awful, perhaps the worst officiating I've ever seen live.

That is something I did not understand about the officiating in this game, if you have to stop and discuss whether a violation occurred, it did not occur. I don't know NCAA football rules, but I am a pretty highly qualified official in another sport and we always stress, benefit of doubt goes to the athlete, and be sure of what you see, and only call violations that you are 100% sure of.

[NorthernBison]

So how in the heck was there a penalty on the tackle by Deluca? As far as any roughness on that tackle, may as well throw a flag 50% of the time a tackle is made. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a pinky finger push makes a tackle, and 5 the average hit) that tackle might have been a 6. In no way did it deserve a roughness penalty.

I'll have to watch the whole game I guess. When did DeLuca get flagged? I remember Bachmier getting one (#29) on a play where DeLuca made the tackle. Maybe that was a different play.


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[BisManBison]

From NDSU's stat page:

In regards to Nikki Randolph, she didn't do women justice when trying to prove that they can (I believe they can) officiate college football. The penalty call on DeLuca looked like something a mother would call if their child got tackled. Football is a violent game played by big, strong dudes. However, I will credit her for calling the "simultaneous catch" when R.J. stole back the interception.

She's certainly not the only one that seemed to struggle in that game, but there were two other particular plays that made me go what?

The first was the targeting call on Grimsley. Please correct me if others feel differently or that I'm blatantly wrong as far was what you saw/heard during the TV broadcast, but during the broadcast, they mentioned that there was a flag on the field and insinuated that Nikki threw the flag as Klieman was out pleading Grimsley's case with her. I have not replayed the broadcast to see if I was hearing that correctly.

The second was the 2nd touchdown to Kupp. Not being an officiating expert, I could very well be in the wrong here again, but on the TD where Kupp had a very obvious push off, Nikki was no where to be seen in the play. Seems like she should have been positioned on the back corner pylon and in perfect position to see the push off. Am I wrong? Was she there and I just didn't see her? I saw several replays and am certain she wasn't anywhere in that picture.

[BisManBison]

I'll have to watch the whole game I guess. When did DeLuca get flagged? I remember Bachmier getting one (#29) on a play where DeLuca made the tackle. Maybe that was a different play.


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That's the play you're thinking of, it was DeLuca that drew the flag, they just had the wrong number.

[bisonsupporter]

Minard low hit- Not a penalty
DeLuca Tackle- not a penalty
Grimsley hit- shouldn't even have been a question
Ball spotting all game- not even close
Kupp TD pushoff- offical can call the simultanous catch but not the clear offensive PI?
"Chop Block"- pretty sure they were guessing at that one

Overall official Grade- F. Those officals need to stay in NAIA or High School. Were completely overwhelmed by the dome.

[EC8CH]

So how in the heck was there a penalty on the tackle by Deluca? As far as any roughness on that tackle, may as well throw a flag 50% of the time a tackle is made. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a pinky finger push makes a tackle, and 5 the average hit) that tackle might have been a 6. In no way did it deserve a roughness penalty.

Official who threw the flag motioned that she didn't like the way he twisted their QB and brought him down to the ground with his forearm. As if finishing the tackle by landing on the QB with his forearm was excessive.

IT'S CALLED FINISHING A TACKLE LADY!

[THEsocalledfan]

While I do think Kupp pushed off on the one TD, it was not blatant and did a good job of hiding it. That was one of the few mess ups I can forgive.

[Christopher Moen]

She's certainly not the only one that seemed to struggle in that game, but there were two other particular plays that made me go what?

The first was the targeting call on Grimsley. Please correct me if others feel differently or that I'm blatantly wrong as far was what you saw/heard during the TV broadcast, but during the broadcast, they mentioned that there was a flag on the field and insinuated that Nikki threw the flag as Klieman was out pleading Grimsley's case with her. I have not replayed the broadcast to see if I was hearing that correctly.

The second was the 2nd touchdown to Kupp. Not being an officiating expert, I could very well be in the wrong here again, but on the TD where Kupp had a very obvious push off, Nikki was no where to be seen in the play. Seems like she should have been positioned on the back corner pylon and in perfect position to see the push off. Am I wrong? Was she there and I just didn't see her? I saw several replays and am certain she wasn't anywhere in that picture.

Like I said, "she didn't do women justice." I hope she improves.

[EC8CH]

While I do think Kupp pushed off on the one TD, it was not blatant and did a good job of hiding it. That was one of the few mess ups I can forgive.

I agree. Allison looked to be doing a fair amount of acting and generally top receivers tend to find a way of not getting flagged for those things anyway. Maybe Allison wasn't acting but Kupp did a good job of minimizing his likelihood of getting called.

[SDbison]

Official who threw the flag motioned that she didn't like the way he twisted their QB and brought him down to the ground with his forearm. As if finishing the tackle by landing on the QB with his forearm was excessive.

IT'S CALLED FINISHING A TACKLE LADY! So during a tackle that is totally legal a tackler is supposed to back off to allow for a more gentile landing? Maybe not push to get the runner to the ground as quickly so they can possibly wriggle free and get more yardage? I am going to stop here as there is so much I could say.

[StL Bison Fan]

I am less likely to question a call if you act like you know what you are doing. Calling a conference and then throwing the flag, looking at the EW coach and then throwing a flag, and not being able to actually speak, are things that make me question your capabilities.

[EightyfourBison]

She's certainly not the only one that seemed to struggle in that game, but there were two other particular plays that made me go what?

The first was the targeting call on Grimsley. Please correct me if others feel differently or that I'm blatantly wrong as far was what you saw/heard during the TV broadcast, but during the broadcast, they mentioned that there was a flag on the field and insinuated that Nikki threw the flag as Klieman was out pleading Grimsley's case with her. I have not replayed the broadcast to see if I was hearing that correctly.

The second was the 2nd touchdown to Kupp. Not being an officiating expert, I could very well be in the wrong here again, but on the TD where Kupp had a very obvious push off, Nikki was no where to be seen in the play. Seems like she should have been positioned on the back corner pylon and in perfect position to see the push off. Am I wrong? Was she there and I just didn't see her? I saw several replays and am certain she wasn't anywhere in that picture.

Saw the pushoff from our seats when it happened. Then watched the replay on the coaches show and noticed that the older gentleman standing just beyond the corner of the endzone saw it too. He quietly made a pushoff motion with his hands as soon as the ball was caught.

[Mayville Bison]

Official who threw the flag motioned that she didn't like the way he twisted their QB and brought him down to the ground with his forearm. As if finishing the tackle by landing on the QB with his forearm was excessive.

IT'S CALLED FINISHING A TACKLE LADY!

After talking with someone else Saturday night, we thought it had more to do with a "second tackle". Deluca (or Leduca initially in our discussion haha) tackled the runner but didn't think he was down so he went to make sure he was down making it look like he was giving an extra shove after the play was over. You could see in the discussion of the officials that another official was questioning the decision but they went with it.

Is that for sure what happened, no idea. I don't think the officials even know at this point anymore.

[BisonAccountant44]

On DeLuca's roughing I originally thought it was a bad call because the QB was still holding the ball when the contact occured, but from what I remember and after now looking at the replay I think it was correct, but I'd have to go back and watch.

On Kupp's pushoff, I think the no call there is pretty standard. I liken it to rebounding in Bball. You can get your hands in a guys back to move him and get away with it most of the time, but if you extend your arms you're probably going to get it called. Same thing here, I view it as a savvy veteran move by Kupp more than a miss by the refs.

[BisonNation11]

On DeLuca's roughing I originally thought it was a bad call because the QB was still holding the ball when the contact occured, but from what I remember and after now looking at the replay I think it was correct, but I'd have to go back and watch.

On Kupp's pushoff, I think the no call there is pretty standard. I liken it to rebounding in Bball. You can get your hands in a guys back to move him and get away with it most of the time, but if you extend your arms you're probably going to get it called. Same thing here, I view it as a savvy veteran move by Kupp more than a miss by the refs.

So you're saying if the players were reversed and we pushed Kupp to get the interception, the same no call would have been made? The defender was in the air with a very clear and easy play on the ball, and then all of a sudden is 4 feet away... We all know it should have been called.

[RonMexico]

She's certainly not the only one that seemed to struggle in that game, but there were two other particular plays that made me go what?

The first was the targeting call on Grimsley. Please correct me if others feel differently or that I'm blatantly wrong as far was what you saw/heard during the TV broadcast, but during the broadcast, they mentioned that there was a flag on the field and insinuated that Nikki threw the flag as Klieman was out pleading Grimsley's case with her. I have not replayed the broadcast to see if I was hearing that correctly.

The second was the 2nd touchdown to Kupp. Not being an officiating expert, I could very well be in the wrong here again, but on the TD where Kupp had a very obvious push off, Nikki was no where to be seen in the play. Seems like she should have been positioned on the back corner pylon and in perfect position to see the push off. Am I wrong? Was she there and I just didn't see her? I saw several replays and am certain she wasn't anywhere in that picture.

A new rule this year is that the replay booth can call for a targeting penalty if they think there might have been one, and then they can look at the replay to either confirm or reverse. That is what happened here. None of the on field officials threw a flag at first, but then the replay official called down and called for the targeting penalty and that was when they threw the flag.

[Bison03]

Not to be technical but I hope it said the person kicking the ball. It was not the kicker that kicked it.
Well...technically, the person who eventually kicks the ball is still the kicker. Much like if a running back takes a direct snap, he has all the same rules applied to him as a qb despite not technically being one.

[BisonAccountant44]

So you're saying if the players were reversed and we pushed Kupp to get the interception, the same no call would have been made? The defender was in the air with a very clear and easy play on the ball, and then all of a sudden is 4 feet away... We all know it should have been called.

I'm not saying that, but I don't think offensive and defensive PI are called the same both ways at anytime. I mean, on the post game show they called it a "Zach Vraa push off", laughed about it and asked CD how many times Zach had done it to him in practice. I'm not saying it's not a penalty by rule, I'm saying it's a standard no call for offensive PI in that spot.

[Son of a Bison]

I was waiting for a "Ghost whistle" like last year during the UNI playoff game. Would have set the dome off into an absolute fury.

[BisonNation11]

I'm not saying that, but I don't think offensive and defensive PI are called the same both ways at anytime. I mean, on the post game show they called it a "Zach Vraa push off", laughed about it and asked CD how many times Zach had done it to him in practice. I'm not saying it's not a penalty by rule, I'm saying it's a standard no call for offensive PI in that spot.

I guess I'm just saying that it being different for whatever player pushes off is not right. They always say both players have a right to the ball. So why does the offensive player get preferential treatment on a play like that? I get it, it's how football has evolved, but on that particular play when the defender clearly beat the offensive player to the ball, the same rules should apply.

[thundarsdaddy]

Official who threw the flag motioned that she didn't like the way he twisted their QB and brought him down to the ground with his forearm. As if finishing the tackle by landing on the QB with his forearm was excessive.

IT'S CALLED FINISHING A TACKLE LADY!

My opinion too! He twisted the ball-carrier, who happened to be the QB. Deluca and all the defense knew that this QB is a shifty runner with quick feet....but why in the world does anyone have to try to defend a simple tackle?? As SDBison said....50% of the tackles in any FB game could then, be flagged...WTF?

[NorthernBison]

We can argue all day about targeting. I didn't think Grimsley's hit was clearly targeting and I'm glad the replay official agreed.

BUT, any time you hit a receiver up high, that hard, and he stays down, THEY WILL LOOK AT IT.

At that point, it's out of your hands. Either lower your target or live with the potential to get tossed.

Officials will tend to err on the side of throwing the flag because it always gets reviewed.


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[EC8CH]

After talking with someone else Saturday night, we thought it had more to do with a "second tackle". Deluca (or Leduca initially in our discussion haha) tackled the runner but didn't think he was down so he went to make sure he was down making it look like he was giving an extra shove after the play was over. You could see in the discussion of the officials that another official was questioning the decision but they went with it.

Is that for sure what happened, no idea. I don't think the officials even know at this point anymore.

I'm going to look at this again, but don't remember seeing anything extra after the runner was down. I remember seen a quick twist and DeLuca following the runner to the ground with his forearm.

[Mayville Bison]

I'm going to look at this again, but don't remember seeing anything extra after the runner was down. I remember seen a quick twist and DeLuca following the runner to the ground with his forearm.

That's what we saw too. All one motion but could she have seen it as two?


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[EC8CH]

That's what we saw too. All one motion but could she have seen it as two?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If she did, she didn't see it well enough to justify throwing a PF flag then.

[ndsubison1]

[/B]

Saw the pushoff from our seats when it happened. Then watched the replay on the coaches show and noticed that the older gentleman standing just beyond the corner of the endzone saw it too. He quietly made a pushoff motion with his hands as soon as the ball was caught.

So because a fan is close means they know what's going on? haha

[JMB]

We can argue all day about targeting. I didn't think Grimsley's hit was clearly targeting and I'm glad the replay official agreed.

BUT, any time you hit a receiver up high, that hard, and he stays down, THEY WILL LOOK AT IT.

At that point, it's out of your hands. Either lower your target or live with the potential to get tossed.

Officials will tend to err on the side of throwing the flag because it always gets reviewed.


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I believe the Officials are told to Err on the side of throwing the flag.

[bisonfanette]

She talked to us at the hotel after the game... seemed very young & her comments were quite passive. She told us where they were all from, how they all work together etc. We commented on the excessive number of penalties and reviews... and her reply was, "Oh you think so?" She was driving back to Michigan to go to church the following day! We realized she had a long haul ahead of her, so we just wished her safe travels.

[MAKBison]

We can argue all day about targeting. I didn't think Grimsley's hit was clearly targeting and I'm glad the replay official agreed.

BUT, any time you hit a receiver up high, that hard, and he stays down, THEY WILL LOOK AT IT.

At that point, it's out of your hands. Either lower your target or live with the potential to get tossed.

Officials will tend to err on the side of throwing the flag because it always gets reviewed.


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Of course they look at it. The reply official can actually call it even it is not called on the field....which is why there is no need to just to through the flag on the "was it close" anymore.

[MAKBison]

I believe the Officials are told to Err on the side of throwing the flag.

there is no need to err anymore...the reply official can stop play and call it from the booth

[GFBison]

Anyone got a picture of Menard sacking the qb at the waist and they called a below the knee penalty?

7236
Didn't get it before ball was off.

[IndyBison]

Wow. A lot of rules experts on this topic. I'm impressed. We have shortages all over the country and I would love for any and all of you to become licensed in your area and start officiating games. I'm sure they would love to have you! I have not seen one play from this game so I will have no comments on the correctness of any of the calls. I do know a few guys on this crew, and they are excellent officials. A couple of them are mentors of mine. I've clipped several questions/comments and will try to clarify the rules where asked. These were all from the first page (first 40 posts).


How far can a kicker be offside before kicking the ball?

Not to be technical but I hope it said the person kicking the ball. It was not the kicker that kicked it.
There is no limit. They obviously need to be able to be in position to kick the ball, but only the kicker is allowed to be across the free kick line (generally the 35 yard line). By philosophy, on a deep kick the other players are not considered to have encroached unless they get that front foot down beyond the free kick line before the ball is kicked. This is not a huge advantage so no reason to nit pick it. If they kicking team attempts an onside kick, then the free kick line becomes a plane and will be officiated more precisely. That's because a couple feet now gives them a huge advantage to get to the ball.

Definitions are a HUGE part of any sport's rule book. Positions like quarterback, running back, linebacker are not used in the rule book. The following player designations are defined though: lineman, back, passer, kicker, holder, runner, ball carrier. A kicker is defined as anyone who legally kicks the ball. So it doesn't matter who is on the roster as the kicker. In the rule book it's the person who actually kicks the ball. The kicker is allowed to be in the neutral zone (the 10 yards between the two kick lines on a free kick) before the ball is kicked, but that's it.


What conference were they from? I know last game was B1G crew.
The crews for both of the NDSU games this year are form the MVFC.


Because people who've never played football think they need to get involved and think they can "improve" the game
The rules committee is made up entirely of NCAA coaches and administrators. There are representatives from each of the NCAA divisions. NAIA uses the NCAA rule book as well, but I don't believe they have any representation on the rules committee. Per the current rule book, the committee currently consists of the following people:
Mark Alnutt, University of Memphis
Monte Cater, Shepherd University
John Chandler, Coe College
Larry Fedora, University of North Carolina
Joey Jones, University of South Alabama
Michael Mattia, Johns Hopkins University
Bob Nielson, University of South Dakota (chair)
David Sharp, Ouachita Baptist University
Ed Stewart, Big 12 Conference
Brian Surace, Farleigh Dickinson, Florham
Paul Winters, Wayne State University
Tom Yeager, Colonial Athletic Association
Rogers Redding, NCAA Supervisor of Officials/Rules Editor (non-voting member)



After listening to Shawn and Timmerman, it is 100% clear to me that they spent ZERO time learning NCAA rule changes for 2016. There were 14 changes and about 5 or 6 affect play on the field.

The roughing the passer call was for a low hit. They didn't seem to even understand that there was a rule about that. The official saw it different than I did but they didn't have a clue what happened.

I've said this several times, it's very rare for any announcers to study and learn rules or understand them. Most people get their rules knowledge from announcers so that leads to a lot of confusion and mis-understanding. It is what it is. Having former officials in the booth has had some positive affects, but most people view them as only covering for their buddies, so I'm not sure how effective it has been.


And why did it take a discussion before the flag was thrown?

If you saw something, throw the flag! If not, don't throw it! Every frickin' time they had to huddle and discuss if they actually saw anything. Those guys were awful, perhaps the worst officiating I've ever seen live.

That is something I did not understand about the officiating in this game, if you have to stop and discuss whether a violation occurred, it did not occur. I don't know NCAA football rules, but I am a pretty highly qualified official in another sport and we always stress, benefit of doubt goes to the athlete, and be sure of what you see, and only call violations that you are 100% sure of.
The discussions are usually because there are different elements at play and different officials have the information that determines if a foul was committed. I'll provide a couple examples. In NCAA, offensive players are not allowed to block opponents beyond the neutral zone if a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone. A deep wing (F or S) is responsible for watching the widest eligible receiver in the formation. If that player goes 10 yards downfield and blocks a defender before a legal forward pass is completed, the deep wing only knows he was blocking. He has no idea if the ball was caught beyond or behind the neutral zone. He may need to get that information from the short wing (H or L) or possibly umpire. Another example is the pass interference in the CSU-NDSU game. The deep wing threw the flag for the PI call and attempts to get his flag as close to the spot as possible, but from the field level and downfield, it's not always easy to get it in the exact spot. Another official who didn't see enough of the play to rule if there was PI, but he knows where the contact happened may be able to help the spot. Once the spot is established, then you have to determine if the spot was more or less than 15 yards from the previous spot. If it's less, then the ball will next be snapped at the spot of the foul. If it's more the ball will be spotted 15 yards from the previous spot (could be on the opposite side of the field also). That's what they were discussing in that situation. Unfortunately the down indicator (aka Box) had already moved, so they weren't exactly sure where it was. That's why they brought the short wing (H) from the other side of the field. He was pretty certain (and was accurate) on the previous spot. It was 15 yards from where the flag was so they enforced it accordingly. Unfortunately the flag was about 7 yards off so the offense was given an extra 8 yards because the flag was in the wrong spot.

There are many other reasons for conferences that may not be obvious to the casual fan. They don't always indicate uncertainty.

[IndyBison]

Apparently there is a limit in the number of characters in a post. Here are other responses from page 1:


An example would be a tackle who pulls and has nobody in front of him so he peels back to block a defender trailing the play or coming across the field. If he blocks below the waist it has to be from the front (10-2).

We had two linemen get called on the same play.

Dudzik said it's all about angles. What he didn't say is the rule is expanded this season.

There were several comments and questions about the new low blocking rules this year. I've been officiating with college rules for 9 years, and I think they've made a change to the low locking rules at least 6 of those. There was a stretch of about 4 years where it changed every year. As we understand it there are some committee members who want to eliminate low blocking entirely. There are other factions who love the option game which relies heavily on low blocks. The tweaks usually involve clarifying something that helps provide more clarity for safety. Unfortunately that rarely happens. I thought they did a pretty good job simplifying it in 2014 and made no changes in 2015. This year's changes are still confusing to many people including some officials. We discuss them and review video at every study group and pregame and seem to always find some other nuance that isn't completely clear. But in general most of the comments here are on point.

The basic idea is you have restricted players and unrestricted players. Unrestricted players are those in the tackle box (defined as space between the second lineman from the snapper from the neutral zone all the back to the end line). Restricted players are all others. Unrestricted players become restricted when they or the ball leaves the tackle box. Unrestricted players can block low anywhere in the tackle from 9 to 3 (think clock not steering wheel), but they can't clip anywhere. Restricted players have to initiate blocks from the front (10 to 2) and until the ball crosses the neutral zone, they can't block low back toward the initial position of the ball (think line drawn end line to end line through the long axis of the ball at the snap). This is primarily intended for the slot guy who comes inside to cut the DE or OLB on a sweep to his side (aka "crackback" block). That was the guy restricted on this block last year. Now they've included any player so the RG who shoots out 2 yards beyond the LOS (and thus is outside the tackle box) can't cut back toward the middle when he could last year. He could also go out and block 9 to 3 last year but now that block as to be 10 to 2. I'm glad for that change because I saw several OL come out and cut a LB in the side of the knee and end his season. Once the play has developed (defined as the runner is beyond the neutral zone) then low blacks back toward the middle are now legal as long as they are 10 to 2. The other change is once the ball leaves the tackle box, no player can but back toward their own goal line (the one they defend by definition).

There are also rules for defensive players cutting and nobody can cut after a change of possession or any kick play. And that's the simple summary. I'm willing to bet most of the confusion is around the OL moving downfield a couple yards and then cutting back toward the middle. I try to get to the OL before the game during warm-ups and make sure they understand that change.


You seriously cant low tackle a QB in the pocket? Mother of God.
Call this the Tom Brady rule. You can see how dangerous this is when seeing the play where he was injured a few years ago. The NFL passed their version of the rule the following season. NCAA passed a similar rule 2 years ago. A passer in the passing pose is very susceptible to serious injury when he's in the passing posture and someone comes at their knees. If the contact is caused by a teammate of the passer blocking the defender into the passer's legs, then it's not a foul. If it's not a forcible hit then it's not a foul. I haven't seen it happen very often. There was a sight change in the rule this year, but it mostly codified what was called previously by philosophy.


How about the catch by EWU in the first have that the linesman marked incorrectly giving them 4th and inches instead of 4th and a yard? Why wasn't that reviewed?
Replay can only get involved with spots if it involves a first down. If they had marked it 4th and inches and it should have been a first down they could change on replay. If they marked it a first down, but replay showed it was short, they could change on replay.

[56BISON73]

[/B]

Saw the pushoff from our seats when it happened. Then watched the replay on the coaches show and noticed that the older gentleman standing just beyond the corner of the endzone saw it too. He quietly made a pushoff motion with his hands as soon as the ball was caught.

It was obvious from my seats as well.

[IndyBison]

On Kupp's pushoff, I think the no call there is pretty standard. I liken it to rebounding in Bball. You can get your hands in a guys back to move him and get away with it most of the time, but if you extend your arms you're probably going to get it called. Same thing here, I view it as a savvy veteran move by Kupp more than a miss by the refs.

I'm not saying that, but I don't think offensive and defensive PI are called the same both ways at anytime. I mean, on the post game show they called it a "Zach Vraa push off", laughed about it and asked CD how many times Zach had done it to him in practice. I'm not saying it's not a penalty by rule, I'm saying it's a standard no call for offensive PI in that spot.

I guess I'm just saying that it being different for whatever player pushes off is not right. They always say both players have a right to the ball. So why does the offensive player get preferential treatment on a play like that? I get it, it's how football has evolved, but on that particular play when the defender clearly beat the offensive player to the ball, the same rules should apply.
Pass interference by definition is the same regardless of offense or defense. The nature of the players and what they are doing on the play makes different things become PI for offense and defense. The offensive player is running a route and know where they want to go. The defensive player is trying to predict the type of route and defense as best as he can. A push-off by either player could be offensive pass interference. As with most non-safety fouls, there needs to be a material affect on the play or significant advantage gained. When we look at these as fans we see any contact as gaining a significant advantage. The unbiased official sees it completely differently. The reason you don't see OPI very often is because when you look at it objectively, it's not that common for an offensive player to create enough separation to result in a foul. And a defensive player is much less likely to be in a position to push off the offensive player. PI are some of the most subjective judgement calls an official has to make and as an umpire, I never rule on PI. When we review PI or potential PI calls among officials it's not unusual to get different opinions. That's why most officials want to make sure it's absolutely obvious before flagging PI.


A new rule this year is that the replay booth can call for a targeting penalty if they think there might have been one, and then they can look at the replay to either confirm or reverse. That is what happened here. None of the on field officials threw a flag at first, but then the replay official called down and called for the targeting penalty and that was when they threw the flag.

I believe the Officials are told to Err on the side of throwing the flag.

Of course they look at it. The reply official can actually call it even it is not called on the field....which is why there is no need to just to through the flag on the "was it close" anymore.

there is no need to err anymore...the reply official can stop play and call it from the booth
There is a new rule this year allowing replay to get involved if an egregious targeting foul is not called on the field. The ND-Texas play was a good example of one where replay should get involved. There is no "flagging it from the booth" and then reviewing and overturning it. They may stop the play to complete the review, but there is only one additional decision - was it or was it not targeting.

In all instances officials that work in replay are told to officiate as if replay doesn't exist. The reason they do this is because there is always a chance replay will not work. And they don't want the officials to become too reliable on replay. There is a definite dictum to err on the side of safety for fouls like chop blocking (high/low), illegal block below the waist, clipping (low from behind), targeting, roughing, and horse collar.

I think this covers all the questions from this thread. If I missed something, please let me know. If the officials working Bison games suck, I must be absolutely putrid, because they are all better than me. They don't get into the MVFC by accident. They have put in years of working high school and lower level games and spend significant amounts of time in the offseason attending and leading clinics, studying rules and mechanics. During the week they are spending approximately 15-20 hours doing video review, quizzes, attending study groups, and preparing for the next game. It's not something they just show up and do on Saturday. They aren't perfect and they do make mistakes (see CMU-OSU game). But they are still among the best in the country at what they do. Their games are reviewed very closely and grades are handed out on every play. Make enough mistakes and your schedule may become more limited or you are no longer working.

I hope this helps!

[Christopher Moen]

If I missed something, please let me know.

The unnecessary roughness penalty against DeLuca where he tackled the QB running towards him. Happens in the 41st minute of this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp9KvOP09JQ

[IndyBison]

The unnecessary roughness penalty against DeLuca where he tackled the QB running towards him. Happens in the 41st minute of this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp9KvOP09JQ

I'm not going to comment on judgement calls made by officials. That would be very unprofessional of me on a fan forum.

[Christopher Moen]

I'm not going to comment on judgement calls made by officials. That would be very unprofessional of me on a fan forum.

Any chance you can ask your friends that officiated the game what was seen by them to justify the call. As someone who's responsible for video review in wrestling within the United States, I'm well aware that one camera shot doesn't paint the whole picture. Unfortunately, we never got a view from the reverse angle, and hence, the frustration.

Also, I watched the whole game again today, and they did call EWU for cut-blocks too; so it wasn't a one-sided penalty call.

[THEsocalledfan]

Also, I watched the whole game again today, and they did call EWU for cut-blocks too; so it wasn't a one-sided penalty call.

Coach K was clear he thought the EWU blocks were not a penalty, too.

[Mr Meaty]

Coaches and players watch film to get better. Do officials rewatch their games or are they graded by someone on their performance? I am always tough on officials and I do realize it is a hard job. But main thing is get the calls correct and be consistent on making calls as well.

[NorthernBison]

Coach K was clear he thought the EWU blocks were not a penalty, too.

True. One thing that makes me wonder though is his comment about us not changing.

As Indy said, the rule DID change and it is possible that legal blocks last season are now flagged. Especially for linemen who leave the tackle box. Considering that's where we got the flags, it's something to think about.


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[TransAmBison]

I'm not going to comment on judgement calls made by officials. That would be very unprofessional of me on a fan forum.I have to say I was hoping you would chime in and educate us this week...much appreciated.

As for this comment I would have to believe you would color it in in you agreed with the call. The comment you made seems telling. Professional, but telling. Anti-Port if you will.

[thundarsdaddy]

I have to say I was hoping you would chime in and educate us this week...much appreciated.

As for this comment I would have to believe you would color it in in you agreed with the call. The comment you made seems telling. Professional, but telling. Anti-Port if you will.

Anti-Port?
I assume you aint talking vintage wines are ya?

Thanks Indy, you are the best to take the time you do do explain things!
As I said before I dont even know what constitutes a tackle anymore with all the legislation in the rules of football!

All I ask though, not as a coach anymore...but as a fan, is that officials do not GUESS at a call. If you see it...call it! If you dont see it...dont guess or assume, as they seemed to on the roughing-the-passer call on Menard. If you dont see a call, that fans did, or coaches did....we all understand, officials cant see everything...but please do not GUESS!!!

Trouble is sometimes officials get confused with all the updates rules, the certain emphasis of targeting or chop-blocks for example, and they do the right thing by huddling...reviewing to try to get it right!

Thus a 4 hour-6 minute long game, where neither team can get any momentum since they stand on the field waiting for longer and longer field reviews or official huddles!!

So we are not upset at the officials, its the way this is all going...again Thanks Indy!!!

[IBleedYellow]

Indy saying "No Comment" is all that I need to know.

[tony]

Well, Jeff C. Bison1660 just reported that NDSU sent in film on 5 blocking below the waist penalties and the league said that only 1 was valid.

However, as Jeff C. pointed out, these aren't easy calls to make.

That said, given that NDSU got called for a completely imaginary chop block last year, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like they are calling fouls based on suggestions from the sidelines or based on last week's game tape (so make-up calls.)

[ndsubison1]

Well, Jeff C. Bison1660 just reported that NDSU sent in film on 5 blocking below the waist penalties and the league said that only 1 was valid.

However, as Jeff C. pointed out, these aren't easy calls to make.

That said, given that NDSU got called for a completely imaginary chop block last year, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like they are calling fouls based on suggestions from the sidelines or based on last week's game tape (so make-up calls.)

Refs are never wrong

[KilldeerBison]

Well, Jeff C. Bison1660 just reported that NDSU sent in film on 5 blocking below the waist penalties and the league said that only 1 was valid.

However, as Jeff C. pointed out, these aren't easy calls to make.

That said, given that NDSU got called for a completely imaginary chop block last year, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like they are calling fouls based on suggestions from the sidelines or based on last week's game tape (so make-up calls.)

Pretty big news, IMO. Affirming coach K was correct and does understand the new rules.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Right wrong or indifferent on if the penalties were correct or incorrect for me it took the fun out of watching the game. I just wanted to watch football and not a flag fest with multiple multiple long reviews. Yes this game was drug out some by the way that EWU plays football and not a lot of time running off the clock but a game even without the short overtime should not take as long as that took. Heck that game was over a hour longer than any of our home playoff games last year.

[headedscorp]

Coaches and players watch film to get better. Do officials rewatch their games or are they graded by someone on their performance? I am always tough on officials and I do realize it is a hard job. But main thing is get the calls correct and be consistent on making calls as well.

Yes I do high school and we meet and review films all the time


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[SomeBeach]

Thank you, INDY! I appreciate the clarity you always provide. You also help me remember that a lot of my criticisms of the officials is based on my team bias. If I was watching this game as a neutral observer, I would have been more likely to blame the teams for the excessive number of penalties, rather than the officials. Bottom line, this was a hard game to watch; I'm just grateful it turned out the way it did.

[EC8CH]

Well, Jeff C. Bison1660 just reported that NDSU sent in film on 5 blocking below the waist penalties and the league said that only 1 was valid.

However, as Jeff C. pointed out, these aren't easy calls to make.

That said, given that NDSU got called for a completely imaginary chop block last year, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like they are calling fouls based on suggestions from the sidelines or based on last week's game tape (so make-up calls.)

My opinion is likely overzealous enforcement of new rules combined with lack of experience. Wouldn't surprise me if suggestions to keep an eye on cut blocks from the opposing sideline doesn't add to it against certain teams.

Against EWU I think it was mostly newer officials calling things way too tight.

[Bison bison]

I'm not going to comment on judgement calls made by officials. That would be very unprofessional of me on a fan forum.

Dude. You're posting on Bisonville, your professional reputation is shot.

[IndyBison]

Coaches and players watch film to get better. Do officials rewatch their games or are they graded by someone on their performance? I am always tough on officials and I do realize it is a hard job. But main thing is get the calls correct and be consistent on making calls as well.
Absolutely! Just ask my wife. She actually gets frustrated with me because I'm up until 2am some nights watching video. I'll get two copies of each of my HS videos and I review each play watching our mechanics or looking for anything we may have missed. I also note things done well. Fouls/penalties are just one part of it. Was the official in the right place to rule catch/no catch? Did the official get to the goal line before the runner? Did the official crash into the pile to make sure things didn't get out of hand? Did the official get too close to the end of the run and miss action around the pile or possibly get rolled up? As a member of the CFO (College Football Officials), we also get training videos every week. Guys at the D1 and D2 level usually get training videos from their conference as well. D1 officials also have weekly rules quizzes and position meetings with their position coach. It is much more than just showing up Saturday afternoon for a game. D1 officials are graded on every play by a position coach. These are usually current or retired NFL officials or retired D1 officials. The grading determines post season assignments which is what all officials strive for. In D3 we may get feedback on our fouls from our supervisor or he may attend one of our games and provide feedback. We rely on each other for feedback.


Any chance you can ask your friends that officiated the game what was seen by them to justify the call. As someone who's responsible for video review in wrestling within the United States, I'm well aware that one camera shot doesn't paint the whole picture. Unfortunately, we never got a view from the reverse angle, and hence, the frustration.

I have to say I was hoping you would chime in and educate us this week...much appreciated.

As for this comment I would have to believe you would color it in in you agreed with the call. The comment you made seems telling. Professional, but telling. Anti-Port if you will.

Indy saying "No Comment" is all that I need to know.

Dude. You're posting on Bisonville, your professional reputation is shot.
It shouldn't be telling at all because I didn't watch the play so I have no opinion. And even if I did I wouldn't say anything either way. I may try to explain why something may or may not be called, but I could probably argue both sides of some calls.


All I ask though, not as a coach anymore...but as a fan, is that officials do not GUESS at a call. If you see it...call it! If you dont see it...dont guess or assume, as they seemed to on the roughing-the-passer call on Menard. If you dont see a call, that fans did, or coaches did....we all understand, officials cant see everything...but please do not GUESS!!!

So we are not upset at the officials, its the way this is all going...again Thanks Indy!!!
You had better not ever guess! Many calls that you see "missed" are because the official didn't see the entire thing. Rather than guess or assume why something happened (i.e. a player face down on the ground likely due to a block in the back), let it go. Grading of officials downgrades someone more for an incorrect call (IC) and than incorrect no call (INC). Whether or not something is corrected on replay doesn't affect the grading. If you start guessing you are going to be subject to downgrades and no postseason assignments. It's definitely possible though for your eyes to fool you. I've had calls on the field and then watch the video and wonder how in the world I saw what I saw on the field. A simple example was a false start I called on a guard in a HS game. I slowed it down as much as possible hoping the G moved before the ball started moving and it didn't. The only possibility is the snap and the G both moved before the rest of the line so that may have fooled me.


Well, Jeff C. Bison1660 just reported that NDSU sent in film on 5 blocking below the waist penalties and the league said that only 1 was valid.

However, as Jeff C. pointed out, these aren't easy calls to make.

That said, given that NDSU got called for a completely imaginary chop block last year, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on. It's like they are calling fouls based on suggestions from the sidelines or based on last week's game tape (so make-up calls.)
Interesting news. If true I'm going to guess the crew had a misunderstanding of the new low block rule or the supervisors provided an interpretation or update. Something like, yes that is technically what the rule says, but that's not what it means. Or the crew just completely misunderstood the rule. That would be unfortunate.


Right wrong or indifferent on if the penalties were correct or incorrect for me it took the fun out of watching the game. I just wanted to watch football and not a flag fest with multiple multiple long reviews. Yes this game was drug out some by the way that EWU plays football and not a lot of time running off the clock but a game even without the short overtime should not take as long as that took. Heck that game was over a hour longer than any of our home playoff games last year.
Believe it or not the ideal game for an official is a game with no fouls! It makes the game longer and the more flags the more it affects the flow of the game. But you don't not call obvious fouls just to keep the flow going. In blowouts you might start letting procedural fouls slip or not be as technical on a hold. My HS game on Friday was 44-14 at halftime and we had only one foul in the second half - free kick out of bounds.

[Mr Meaty]

In Frisco for the 1st championship we sat behind 3 college officials. One was to have come to Fargo to do a game but got called last minute to help another crew due to a illness of one of their guys. We asked them several questions during the game to learn what the refs are looking at when a call is made or not. They explained a couple of things really well and we never considered that point to view in making the call. It was fun to learn from them. It is a tough job and I am glad there are people out there willing to do it and do their best at it.

[JMB]

Absolutely! Just ask my wife. She actually gets frustrated with me because I'm up until 2am some nights watching video. I'll get two copies of each of my HS videos and I review each play watching our mechanics or looking for anything we may have missed. I also note things done well. Fouls/penalties are just one part of it. Was the official in the right place to rule catch/no catch? Did the official get to the goal line before the runner? Did the official crash into the pile to make sure things didn't get out of hand? Did the official get too close to the end of the run and miss action around the pile or possibly get rolled up? As a member of the CFO (College Football Officials), we also get training videos every week. Guys at the D1 and D2 level usually get training videos from their conference as well. D1 officials also have weekly rules quizzes and position meetings with their position coach. It is much more than just showing up Saturday afternoon for a game. D1 officials are graded on every play by a position coach. These are usually current or retired NFL officials or retired D1 officials. The grading determines post season assignments which is what all officials strive for. In D3 we may get feedback on our fouls from our supervisor or he may attend one of our games and provide feedback. We rely on each other for feedback.





It shouldn't be telling at all because I didn't watch the play so I have no opinion. And even if I did I wouldn't say anything either way. I may try to explain why something may or may not be called, but I could probably argue both sides of some calls.


You had better not ever guess! Many calls that you see "missed" are because the official didn't see the entire thing. Rather than guess or assume why something happened (i.e. a player face down on the ground likely due to a block in the back), let it go. Grading of officials downgrades someone more for an incorrect call (IC) and than incorrect no call (INC). Whether or not something is corrected on replay doesn't affect the grading. If you start guessing you are going to be subject to downgrades and no postseason assignments. It's definitely possible though for your eyes to fool you. I've had calls on the field and then watch the video and wonder how in the world I saw what I saw on the field. A simple example was a false start I called on a guard in a HS game. I slowed it down as much as possible hoping the G moved before the ball started moving and it didn't. The only possibility is the snap and the G both moved before the rest of the line so that may have fooled me.


Interesting news. If true I'm going to guess the crew had a misunderstanding of the new low block rule or the supervisors provided an interpretation or update. Something like, yes that is technically what the rule says, but that's not what it means. Or the crew just completely misunderstood the rule. That would be unfortunate.


Believe it or not the ideal game for an official is a game with no fouls! It makes the game longer and the more flags the more it affects the flow of the game. But you don't not call obvious fouls just to keep the flow going. In blowouts you might start letting procedural fouls slip or not be as technical on a hold. My HS game on Friday was 44-14 at halftime and we had only one foul in the second half - free kick out of bounds.

Off question, but when you "put the whistles away" in a blowout, do you get graded as closely for that?

[PattyBison]

Indy -
Can you explain the replay rules? How are they called - booth, coaches, etc? Are there limits? I think a big frustration for me was the number of replay reviews - at least 7. 2 on back to back plays. I get that refs will make a mistake. And I get they are trying to get it right, but that is way too many. And if we don't have confidence in the crew on the field, why don't they cut the crew in half and send the rest to a replay room/site?

I will agree all targeting should be reviewed because of the ejection aspect but otherwise, this game was way too second guessed.

Thanks!

[BisonHorns]

Heard today on the radio that the review board found that 4 out of the 5 illegal blocking penalties against the Bison were wrong. So, that was 4 drives killed or attempted murder for the Bison taht should have never happened. They also said the roughing the passer was also called incorrectly. We are lucky to have that win.

[thebootfitter]

Heard today on the radio that the review board found that 4 out of the 5 illegal blocking penalties against the Bison were wrong. So, that was 4 drives killed or attempted murder for the Bison taht should have never happened. They also said the roughing the passer was also called incorrectly. We are lucky to have that win.
Sounds like someone will be getting a downgrade. Unfortunate for them.

The one I haven't seen discussed is the play where the EWU player caught the ball in bounds, but the NDSU corner stripped the ball once they were out of bounds. They ruled that incomplete. Everything that happened inbounds certainly made it look like a catch. I don't understand why getting the ball stripped once out of bounds that it should affect what happened in bounds.

[StL Bison Fan]

Heard today on the radio that the review board found that 4 out of the 5 illegal blocking penalties against the Bison were wrong. So, that was 4 drives killed or attempted murder for the Bison taht should have never happened. They also said the roughing the passer was also called incorrectly. We are lucky to have that win.

No this is wrong. we cheated. the eagles board said so.

[CAS4127]

Heard today on the radio that the review board found that 4 out of the 5 illegal blocking penalties against the Bison were wrong. So, that was 4 drives killed or attempted murder for the Bison taht should have never happened. They also said the roughing the passer was also called incorrectly. We are lucky to have that win.

Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.


Sent from my iPhone.

[Hammersmith]

Sounds like someone will be getting a downgrade. Unfortunate for them.

The one I haven't seen discussed is the play where the EWU player caught the ball in bounds, but the NDSU corner stripped the ball once they were out of bounds. They ruled that incomplete. Everything that happened inbounds certainly made it look like a catch. I don't understand why getting the ball stripped once out of bounds that it should affect what happened in bounds.

Pretty sure that was a case of maintaining possession of a catch all the way to the ground. If you've established possession in the field of play, you can lose possession out of bounds or in the end zone and it's okay. But that doesn't apply if you are in the process of catching the ball while going out of bounds or in the end zone. In those cases, you must continue to maintain possession all the way to the ground. Unless that's one of the rules I've gotten wrong thanks to announcers.

In the two cases in the EWU game, the Bison player knocked the ball out of the receiver's hands before the receiver hit the ground. Since the receiver did not maintain possession all the way to the ground, it was an incomplete pass even if the knocking out action occurred out of bounds.

But I'm not an official and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take the above with a large grain of salt until Indy chimes in.

[PattyBison]

Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.


Sent from my iPhone.

Um. No disrespect intended but were you at the game? I wouldn't describe CK as passive.

[CAS4127]

Um. No disrespect intended but were you at the game? I wouldn't describe CK as passive.

No, but watched it on TV and have been to almost every home game the last 5-6 years. I guess passive and assertive are relative terms. I won't accuse CK of being assertive. I'd like to see him develop a middle ground between where he is now and where he could be, while still maintaining the respect of the officials. And, I think he could gain some of that here, because other officials will and have heard of this debacle. It's opportunity time for him IMO.

No disrespect taken.


Sent from my iPhone.

[Gully]

I'm not going to comment on judgement calls made by officials. That would be very unprofessional of me on a fan forum.

Indy, thanks for the extensive information in your posts. I always learn a great deal from your responses. I can understand where you're coming from in not wanting to criticize peers or mentors on a fan forum..........but, you have given lengthy explanations in defense of calls so I guess it comes off a little bit self-serving to the profession.

Officiating is a tough job, I can't even imagine how tough at this level. Heck, I remember reffing a Jr. High basketball game when I was in high school and even that was challenging. So it's not that I think officials are terrible, it just that I don't believe they're above criticism. No different than AD's, coaches or players, or me in my job for that matter.

From what I've heard, it sounds like Coach K doesn't think the blocks were illegal (except for the one they weren't second guessing anyway) even AFTER hearing back from the league. If mistakes were made that just means they're human. Not admitting mistakes just draws more criticism and erodes credibility.

All that said, generally speaking, they get calls right more often than not and it's not surprising they make a few mistakes.

[SomeBeach]

Heard today on the radio that the review board found that 4 out of the 5 illegal blocking penalties against the Bison were wrong. So, that was 4 drives killed or attempted murder for the Bison taht should have never happened. They also said the roughing the passer was also called incorrectly. We are lucky to have that win.

Are these results published every week somewhere?

[Gully]

In Frisco for the 1st championship we sat behind 3 college officials. One was to have come to Fargo to do a game but got called last minute to help another crew due to a illness of one of their guys. We asked them several questions during the game to learn what the refs are looking at when a call is made or not. They explained a couple of things really well and we never considered that point to view in making the call. It was fun to learn from them. It is a tough job and I am glad there are people out there willing to do it and do their best at it.

I had a similar experience during the last game in Frisco and it was fun. Unfortunately it was that Indy guy I had to sit by! :) I did learn a lot though.

[PattyBison]

No, but watched it on TV and have been to almost every home game the last 5-6 years. I guess passive and assertive are relative terms. I won't accuse CK of being assertive. I'd like to see him develop a middle ground between where he is now and where he could be, while still maintaining the respect of the officials. And, I think he could gain some of that here, because other officials will and have heard of this debacle. It's opportunity time for him IMO.

No disrespect taken.


Sent from my iPhone.

No, and I get that but I feel he was very much sticking up for his team. Could he do more? Yeah, maybe. But that being said, I hope to dear god we never end up with a Pellini either.

[CAS4127]

No, and I get that but I feel he was very much sticking up for his team. Could he do more? Yeah, maybe. But that being said, I hope to dear god we never end up with a Pellini either.

I'm with you there. That would be an embarrassment.


Sent from my iPhone.

[MAKBison]

Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.


Sent from my iPhone.

This seems like BS to me. Are you saying he does not get on the refs, cuz that would not be correct. Every game he is in the refs ear. Two games in and twice the cameras have caught him getting in the refs ass.....gotta huge cheer out of it the last time.

[ndsubison1]

Just rewatched the 2nd quarter. That was brutal.

[NodakNate]

Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.


Sent from my iPhone.

I've enjoyed a lot of your posts, but this one is BS in my opinion. CK may be passive and overly respectful at times in the press conferences, but he is continually letting the officials have it during the game. Much more than a lot of coaches in my opinion. I just have to disagree.

EDIT: I didn't realize others had already posted similar responses to this comment.

[CAS4127]

I've enjoyed a lot of your posts, but this one is BS in my opinion. CK may be passive and overly respectful at times in the press conferences, but he is continually letting the officials have it during the game. Much more than a lot of coaches in my opinion. I just have to disagree.

EDIT: I didn't realize others had already posted similar responses to this comment.

That's fine. I respect other opinions. I'll just ask that you respect mine and keep an open mind. I'll do the same.


Sent from my iPhone.

[Ndsu84]

I agree with CAS. Coach needs to be a bit more authoritative.

[bloodmakesthegrassgrow]

I think Klieman is on the refs alot.

[CAS4127]

I think Klieman is on the refs alot.

Compared to? I'm just asking. IMO, it wasn't close the last two games in comparison to opponent coaches. And who got the majority of the favorable calls. Refs, like other people and animals in general, will take the path of least resistance.


Sent from my iPhone.

[56BISON73]

Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.


Sent from my iPhone.

When you run in to a referee its an automatic penalty. Last year you would get a warning then a penalty.

[CAS4127]

When you run in to a referee its an automatic penalty. Last year you would get a warning then a penalty.

It should depend on how deep the ref is on the sideline, no? And your post doesn't address the other coaches being out to the hash marks constantly.


Sent from my iPhone.

[tojo70]

No, and I get that but I feel he was very much sticking up for his team. Could he do more? Yeah, maybe. But that being said, I hope to dear god we never end up with a Pellini either.
Holy s***. Could you imagine if Pelini was one of the coaches in that game on Saturday?

[Ndsu84]

Deluca's penalty was right in front of us. He had an excellent tackle. As he was forcing the player to the ground he added a burst of power to drive the player into the turf. I thought it was awesome and showed his strength. The call was bs but I can see how a ref could call it.

[bisonmike2]

What a weird game with horrible officiating. By the end of it I was exhausted from booing the officials. That's the only time I ever remember ever hearing the crowd cheer when seeing an official getting taken out during a replay. Strangely hilarious but I was also a little embarrassed by it when my son ask what everyone was cheering about.

[garbageman]

What a weird game with horrible officiating. By the end of it I was exhausted from booing the officials. That's the only time I ever remember ever hearing the crowd cheer when seeing an official getting taken out during a replay. Strangely hilarious but I was also a little embarrassed by it when my son ask what everyone was cheering about.

Why with 2:00 minutes left in the game and Stick runs out of bounds did the clock start again?

[bisonmike2]

Why with 2:00 minutes left in the game and Stick runs out of bounds did the clock start again?

I think since he went out of bounds when the clock was still above 2 mins, the clock started. If he would have went ob at 1:59 it would have stopped. But I could be wrong.

[PattyBison]

Why with 2:00 minutes left in the game and Stick runs out of bounds did the clock start again?

Why at the 7 minute mark did we have a running play where the clock did not start until the play was blown dead?

[CAS4127]

Why with 2:00 minutes left in the game and Stick runs out of bounds did the clock start again?


I think since he went out of bounds when the clock was still above 2 mins, the clock started. If he would have went ob at 1:59 it would have stopped. But I could be wrong.

When a ball carrier goes out of bounds, the game clock stops, but the play clock is still alive.

[bisonmike2]

When a ball carrier goes out of bounds, the game clock stops, but the play clock is still alive.

The game clock stays alive all the time except in the final 2 minutes. Even if the ball carrier goes ob. That was part of the clock management changes made a couple years ago. He ran out with something like 2:03 on the clock so they started the play clock and the game clock at the same time. I may be wrong, but I do like to play arm chair referee on the weekends.

[CAS4127]

The game clock stays alive all the time except in the final 2 minutes. Even if the ball carrier goes ob. That was part of the clock management changes made a couple years ago. He ran out with something like 2:03 on the clock so they started the play clock and the game clock at the same time. I may be wrong, but I do like to play arm chair referee on the weekends.

Huh? I'm confused. Your saying if the ball carrier goes out of bounds the clock starts before the ball is hiked/put back into play? What am I missing? What is the purpose of getting out of bounds to stop the clock?

[gumby013]

Huh? I'm confused. Your saying if the ball carrier goes out of bounds the clock starts before the ball is hiked/put back into play? What am I missing? What is the purpose of getting out of bounds to stop the clock?

The clock restarts after an out of bounds play when the ball is marked ready for play. Exception being in the last 2 minutes of a half, where the clock remains stopped.

[CAS4127]

The clock restarts after an out of bounds play when the ball is marked ready for play. Exception being in the last 2 minutes of a half, where the clock remains stopped.

Oh, now I follow what you gentlemen were discussing--thanks.

[IndyBison]

Off question, but when you "put the whistles away" in a blowout, do you get graded as closely for that?
I wouldn't say whistles get put away, but the threshold for advantage/disadvantage goes much higher. Supervisors and graders will not downgrade someone for something that would have otherwise been a foul under different circumstances. You aren't going to pass on safety fouls or obvious fouls in the open. For example, a huge PI will still be called and an taken down hold in the open field will still be called. I would guess the D1 guys probably do less of that than we do at the D3 level too.


Indy -
Can you explain the replay rules? How are they called - booth, coaches, etc? Are there limits? I think a big frustration for me was the number of replay reviews - at least 7. 2 on back to back plays. I get that refs will make a mistake. And I get they are trying to get it right, but that is way too many. And if we don't have confidence in the crew on the field, why don't they cut the crew in half and send the rest to a replay room/site?
Most replays are initiated by the booth. Coaches can request replay as well, but I've never understand that since the replay official is reviewing every play. I believe it's just a way to make sure the play is stopped. I believe it does cost the team a timeout if the play is not reversed. Replay can be good and bad. It's great for correcting obvious errors in the game, but it can definitely break the flow of the game. Is that worth it to possibly change 1 or 2 calls over the course the game?


Sounds like someone will be getting a downgrade. Unfortunate for them.

The one I haven't seen discussed is the play where the EWU player caught the ball in bounds, but the NDSU corner stripped the ball once they were out of bounds. They ruled that incomplete. Everything that happened inbounds certainly made it look like a catch. I don't understand why getting the ball stripped once out of bounds that it should affect what happened in bounds.
If there were 4 incorrect calls there would be at least 4 downgrades. If someone should have helped the calling official pick up the flag, he may get a downgrade as well.

As for catch/no catch, it sounds like this had more to do with completing the catch and not necessarily going to the ground. If the entire process (either way) has not been completed, it doesn't matter if the receiver is in bounds or in the end zone. If he was going to the ground as part of completing the catch he had better come up with it in his possession.


Time for CK to get some mileage out of this and start being more assertive and less passive with refs. He gets ran over by opposing coaches often. I'm sure he thinks his approach will win in long run, but, in football, time is of the essence. Bohl didn't let refs get the better of him, CK needs to adjust his style. Also, why does he constantly let the opposing coaches be on field all the time. It happened numerous times in these first two games ... and WE END UP WITH THE ONLY SIDELINE VIOLATION CALL. He needs to quit being so passive and start sticking up FOR HIS TEAM. IOW, be the leader he is supposed to be.
Aggressive actions toward the officials will do NOTHING to influence the officials. It only works to show support for his team or make fans think he's doing his job. He'll get a lot more respect and support from the officials by talking with them professionally. Officials are reminded all the time to keep coaches off the field during the game. There is a delicate balance though of dealing with it by walking them back or flagging them. You want to avoid a flag if talking will work. The foul would be unsportsmanlike conduct and 15-yard succeeding spot.


Indy, thanks for the extensive information in your posts. I always learn a great deal from your responses. I can understand where you're coming from in not wanting to criticize peers or mentors on a fan forum..........but, you have given lengthy explanations in defense of calls so I guess it comes off a little bit self-serving to the profession.
I have moved away from saying anything was correct or incorrect unless it was a misapplication of a rule (i.e. CMU-OSU) or explaining why a call may have been made. Going forward I will stay away from giving an opinion on judgement calls. I've actually been doing this for the past year.


When you run in to a referee its an automatic penalty. Last year you would get a warning then a penalty.
Not correct. It has been a 15-yard penalty for contacting a game official on the sideline. The warning sequence is for just being in the restricted area or on the field near the sideline during a live ball. The first one is a warning, second and third are 5-yards, and the third is a 15-yard penalty. It rarely ever goes beyond the first 5-yarder.


Why with 2:00 minutes left in the game and Stick runs out of bounds did the clock start again?

When a ball carrier goes out of bounds, the game clock stops, but the play clock is still alive.
When a runner goes out of bounds, the game clock stops momentarily but starts when the ball is ready for play. In the last 2 minutes of each half, the game clock will not start until the snap if the runner goes out of bounds. The play clock will reset to 40 and start immediately after the runner goes out of bounds.


Why at the 7 minute mark did we have a running play where the clock did not start until the play was blown dead?
Because the game clock operator made a mistake. If the crew didn't notice it there is nothing they can do. If they did notice it they possibly let it go if the impact is minimal. A common philosophy is 5/5. If the time missed is more than 5 seconds or in the last 5 minutes of a half then correct it. If not, the time it takes to get the time corrected is not worth it.

[stevdock]

As for catch/no catch, it sounds like this had more to do with completing the catch and not necessarily going to the ground. If the entire process (either way) has not been completed, it doesn't matter if the receiver is in bounds or in the end zone. If he was going to the ground as part of completing the catch he had better come up with it in his possession.


Does the college game have this entire process thing that the NFL has or had? I don't understand how a WR just has to get one foot down with complete control of the ball before going out of bounds and it's a catch. But in our game EWU had 2 separate plays where the receiver had control of the ball and got both feet down then the ball was stripped and it's incomplete. To me that makes no sense and the rule has been way over complicated.

[IndyBison]

Does the college game have this entire process thing that the NFL has or had? I don't understand how a WR just has to get one foot down with complete control of the ball before going out of bounds and it's a catch. But in our game EWU had 2 separate plays where the receiver had control of the ball and got both feet down then the ball was stripped and it's incomplete. To me that makes no sense and the rule has been way over complicated.

They have actually greatly simplified the catch rules and the main reason is replay. If you are going to have something be a part of replay you need to reduce the amount of gray area. Control and a foot in bounds are both criteria, but maintaining possession is also a criteria. Otherwise there is too much judgement involved. Other than a foot in bounds, the rule is the same whether you are on the sideline or end zone. So bang-bang the ball comes out, no catch. Going to the ground and the ball comes out, no catch. The main gray area now is the non-bang-bang play where you have to judge if the player was able to become a runner or make a football move or have it long enough (whatever phrase you want to use). When in doubt it's incomplete.

[HerdBot]

When you run in to a referee its an automatic penalty. Last year you would get a warning then a penalty.

So these guys were so bad they even missed THAT penalty. Of course it wouldnt have mattered because as you can see in this picture, a flag was already in the air so it would have been offsetting7261

[WFBisonFan]

Holy s***. Could you imagine if Pelini was one of the coaches in that game on Saturday?

He would have had a stroke.

[Bisonwinagn]

Does the college game have this entire process thing that the NFL has or had? I don't understand how a WR just has to get one foot down with complete control of the ball before going out of bounds and it's a catch. But in our game EWU had 2 separate plays where the receiver had control of the ball and got both feet down then the ball was stripped and it's incomplete. To me that makes no sense and the rule has been way over complicated.

The catch rule is really simple now you either catch it and maintain possession all the way through or it's incomplete. Ref's have been consistent over the past few years with this.

The chop block I new was going to be a problem this year because almost nobody understands what the new rule is including the coaches and refs. This has been and will be horribly inconsistently called all year.

[RonMexico]

So these guys were so bad they even missed THAT penalty. Of course it wouldnt have mattered because as you can see in this picture, a flag was already in the air so it would have been offsetting7261

I think he was referring to the first game when NDSU was flagged for contacting the official on the sideline in the get back area.

[HerdBot]

I think he was referring to the first game when NDSU was flagged for contacting the official on the sideline in the get back area.

Accidentally leveling a douche ref is much cooler anyways. He fell back a good 3-5 yards on am Eastern Washington player who violently pushed him off of him. Kinda funny as long as he didn't get hurt

[GFBison]

I find it ironic that they made all the clock management changes to speed up the game and now the official replays have made the game extremely long. We have traded more plays for more replays.

[IndyBison]

I think he was referring to the first game when NDSU was flagged for contacting the official on the sideline in the get back area.

Correct. a player accidentally hitting an official is not a foul. This is another good example of definitions. In the rule, a player is only one of the 22 players on the field during the play. Everyone else is a non-player. A player intentionally contacting an official is a 15-yard penalty and an ejection.

[thebootfitter]

I have moved away from saying anything was correct or incorrect unless it was a misapplication of a rule (i.e. CMU-OSU) or explaining why a call may have been made. Going forward I will stay away from giving an opinion on judgement calls. I've actually been doing this for the past year.
Are you willing to share why you've changed your approach here? Is it just not considered professional?

I very much appreciate your clarification, but I always liked hearing how you would call something based on the information you have. I get that there can be differences of interpretation and opinion to some degree, and I get that seeing video, photos, or reading descriptions isn't the same as seeing something live, but I always thought your commentary humanized the refs in a good way -- even when your judgment was different than what was called.

[VirginiaBison]

2016 college football rules review #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wbUHc9FT8k&feature=youtu.be

[Bisonfanatical]

2016 college football rules review #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wbUHc9FT8k&feature=youtu.be
Nice

Thanks

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[IndyBison]

Are you willing to share why you've changed your approach here? Is it just not considered professional?

I very much appreciate your clarification, but I always liked hearing how you would call something based on the information you have. I get that there can be differences of interpretation and opinion to some degree, and I get that seeing video, photos, or reading descriptions isn't the same as seeing something live, but I always thought your commentary humanized the refs in a good way -- even when your judgment was different than what was called.
Very fair question. The reason is because I'm not in any position of authority for these officials. This is a public forum so the people I work for or aspire to work for could see it. They would definitely not approve. Nobody has said anything to me, but I decided I should stay away from providing my own judgment on calls either way. I am happy to explain rules and philosophies and answer questions, but I will try to avoid sharing my thoughts on judgment calls.

I also know someone who works most Bison games and I often get a chance to talk to them after games. I avoid sharing something they shared with me regarding officiating unless it's really benign (i.e. having the flag in the wrong spot on DPI call against CSU or they love working in Fargo).

Thank you for your understanding!

[thebootfitter]

2016 college football rules review #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wbUHc9FT8k&feature=youtu.be
Did you catch the clip of Carson throwing a touchdown pass at around 10-15 seconds?

[THEsocalledfan]

Indy, seems to me you know NFL rules pretty well, but is there specific authority in the NFL book given to refs to force a player to leave a game is concerned about their health?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/16/tyrod-taylor-concussion-protocol-decision-was-made-by-ed-hochuli-not-the-atc-spotter/

I'd never seen that happen before, but hard to argue with the logic as refs are some of the only people who can bring sanity to those situations.

[RonMexico]

Indy, seems to me you know NFL rules pretty well, but is there specific authority in the NFL book given to refs to force a player to leave a game is concerned about their health?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/16/tyrod-taylor-concussion-protocol-decision-was-made-by-ed-hochuli-not-the-atc-spotter/

I'd never seen that happen before, but hard to argue with the logic as refs are some of the only people who can bring sanity to those situations.

Don't know how long it has been that way in the NFL, if it is a recent rule or not, but the concussion protocol allows an official, or one of the ATC spotters to have a player removed from the game if they feel they are displaying concussion like symptoms. The player can't return until cleared by the medical personal on the sideline.

[Christopher Moen]

Indy, seems to me you know NFL rules pretty well, but is there specific authority in the NFL book given to refs to force a player to leave a game is concerned about their health?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/16/tyrod-taylor-concussion-protocol-decision-was-made-by-ed-hochuli-not-the-atc-spotter/

I'd never seen that happen before, but hard to argue with the logic as refs are some of the only people who can bring sanity to those situations.

After Cam Newton got mauled last week, I believe the NFL was under a lot of scrutiny to not let a player continue playing if there was a strong chance they had a concussion.

[IndyBison]

Indy, seems to me you know NFL rules pretty well, but is there specific authority in the NFL book given to refs to force a player to leave a game is concerned about their health?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/09/16/tyrod-taylor-concussion-protocol-decision-was-made-by-ed-hochuli-not-the-atc-spotter/

I'd never seen that happen before, but hard to argue with the logic as refs are some of the only people who can bring sanity to those situations.

We have it in NFHS and NCAA so I assume they have it in the NFL. I know they added the ATC role this year since they were afraid of the coaches and/or team doctors pulling their players. I assumed the ATC had pulled this player. Good move by Hochuli to get him out of there and let the professionals make sure he's OK.

[THEsocalledfan]

We have it in NFHS and NCAA so I assume they have it in the NFL. I know they added the ATC role this year since they were afraid of the coaches and/or team doctors pulling their players. I assumed the ATC had pulled this player. Good move by Hochuli to get him out of there and let the professionals make sure he's OK.

I've always thought Hochuli has to be one of the best refs in the business. What a gutty move even with the NFL pressure after the Cam hit.

[BlueHawkAlumni]

On DeLuca's roughing I originally thought it was a bad call because the QB was still holding the ball when the contact occured, but from what I remember and after now looking at the replay I think it was correct, but I'd have to go back and watch.

On Kupp's pushoff, I think the no call there is pretty standard. I liken it to rebounding in Bball. You can get your hands in a guys back to move him and get away with it most of the time, but if you extend your arms you're probably going to get it called. Same thing here, I view it as a savvy veteran move by Kupp more than a miss by the refs.

The db cant push a receiver, why would it be any different?

[EightyfourBison]

Did I just see the lady official that worked our EwU game working the Baylor/Rice game?

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