2016 WR Thoughts

[THEsocalledfan]

So, we lost a legend, and have two budding legends coming back, but no true big bodied outside guy particularly since it sounds like no redshirts will be pulled.

So, who plays X, Z, and the third position when on the field?

[El_Chapo]

RJ, Shep & Engel when those 3 are on the field, its a match up NIGHTMARE!!

[BisonFanMan10]

So, who plays X, Z, and the third position when on the field?

Y is the tight end...

[17>1]

So, we lost a legend, and have two budding legends coming back, but no true big bodied outside guy particularly since it sounds like no redshirts will be pulled.

So, who plays X, Y, and the third position when on the field?

I still think Engle is on the fence for a possible shirt pull, but we'll all know for sure in a week. Coach is probably hoping he won't have to use him, but there are still some question marks with guys like Williams and Hawkins and how they'll produce. Freeman had a huge spring game so I'm excited to see how he performs. Gotta feel like with Vraa gone and RJ being nicked up in camp, that there was some wide open competition going on and I'm sure some guys stood out.

[THEsocalledfan]

Y is the tight end...

Fixed; thank you.

[THEsocalledfan]

I still think Engle is on the fence for a possible shirt pull, but we'll all know for sure in a week. Coach is probably hoping he won't have to use him, but there are still some question marks with guys like Williams and Hawkins and how they'll produce. Freeman had a huge spring game so I'm excited to see how he performs. Gotta feel like with Vraa gone and RJ being nicked up in camp, that there was some wide open competition going on and I'm sure some guys stood out.

So, who plays where? What is interesting about this to me is not only "who" plays, but "where." You seem to be following closer than me, so thoughts?

[MAKBison]

I still think Engle is on the fence for a possible shirt pull, but we'll all know for sure in a week. Coach is probably hoping he won't have to use him, but there are still some question marks with guys like Williams and Hawkins and how they'll produce. Freeman had a huge spring game so I'm excited to see how he performs. Gotta feel like with Vraa gone and RJ being nicked up in camp, that there was some wide open competition going on and I'm sure some guys stood out.

Sounds like SE was nicked up as well, I thought I heard missed 5 practices.

[17>1]

So, who plays where? What is interesting about this to me is not only "who" plays, but "where." You seem to be following closer than me, so thoughts?

I'm only following what I've heard from the staff and read on here. Every year it seems as if the staff knows what they have in certain returning guys. Then you have the group of kids that are supposed to step up and improve from year 1 into 2, or 2 into 3. Then you have a walk on like Freeman that to me just came out of no where and surprises (Moody type of guy). As far as specific spots, the X's and the Z's tend to go over my head a bit as far as terminology. I can tell you where a slot guy lines up, but after that I kind of just nod my head when smarter people are talking football. So maybe someone else with a little more offensive football knowledge can answer your question.

[17>1]

Sounds like SE was nicked up as well, I thought I heard missed 5 practices.

Yep, I heard that too. Was it a quad injury maybe? I can't remember specifically. One of the more recent practice update videos showed him out there running around and making a pretty sweet one handed grab over our best CB. Maybe this is why Coach responded to the redshirt pulling question with "We'll know more in a week" because Sean missed time with an injury. Just spitballin' there.

[THEsocalledfan]

I'm only following what I've heard from the staff and read on here. Every year it seems as if the staff knows what they have in certain returning guys. Then you have the group of kids that are supposed to step up and improve from year 1 into 2, or 2 into 3. Then you have a walk on like Freeman that to me just came out of no where and surprises (Moody type of guy). As far as specific spots, the X's and the Z's tend to go over my head a bit as far as terminology. I can tell you where a slot guy lines up, but after that I kind of just nod my head when smarter people are talking football. So maybe someone else with a little more offensive football knowledge can answer your question.

Part of the reason I am asking is they all seem like slot guys to me, other than SE who will likely shirt.......

[SDbison]

Why is it NDSU struggles so much to find a good core of receivers?.......there are 14 of them on the roster right now. Sure NDSU does not pass a lot, and requires receivers to be good blockers, but this is not an uncommon situation. NDSU is 5 time national champs! Why are most of the WR recruits and guys on roster right about 6'0" plus or minus an inch tall? We had Vraa forever, but nobody else stepped up until Urzendowski. Now Engel at least has height, but he is a Freshman.

[mtoutfitter]

Why is it NDSU struggles so much to find a good core of receivers?.......there are 14 of them on the roster right now. Sure NDSU does not pass a lot, and requires receivers to be good blockers, but this is not an uncommon situation. NDSU is 5 time national champs! Why are most of the WR recruits and guys on roster right about 6'0" plus or minus an inch tall? We had Vraa forever, but nobody else stepped up until Urzendowski. Now Engel at least has height, but he is a Freshman.

I'm guessing what you just said is part of it. I'd imagine some of the better receivers know that the Bison don't pass that much and they're gonna have to spend more time blocking than catching.....I'm guessing a player that looks at himself as a big time receiver is gonna look at that and say "I'm gonna go where they pass the ball more"....just spitballing here.

[MAKBison]

Yep, I heard that too. Was it a quad injury maybe? I can't remember specifically. One of the more recent practice update videos showed him out there running around and making a pretty sweet one handed grab over our best CB. Maybe this is why Coach responded to the redshirt pulling question with "We'll know more in a week" because Sean missed time with an injury. Just spitballin' there.

That was my impression from the presser, but then on the coach 's show I got the impression they wanted to sit him for the year. Seems to me they are hoping someone steps up. I am not worried at all Anderson and RJ are studs.

[17>1]

Part of the reason I am asking is they all seem like slot guys to me, other than SE who will likely shirt.......

If I'm following you, because they're all a certain height or size, they seem like slot guys to you? Shepherd is 5'11 and plays on the outside, and he's the same size as a couple of other guys I mentioned. To me, height doesn't always tell the whole story. How good are a kids hands, or how well does he run a route and pick up the playbook, how well does he block, and how well can he create separation and space? To me, those are far more important than his measurables.

[MAKBison]

If I'm following you, because they're all a certain height or size, they seem like slot guys to you? Shepherd is 5'11 and plays on the outside, and he's the same size as a couple of other guys I mentioned. To me, height doesn't always tell the whole story. How good are a kids hands, or how well does he run a route and pick up the playbook, how well does he block, and how well can he create separation and space? To me, those are far more important than his measurables.

Agree with you. I'll take a H. Ward over a R. Moss. And those two are some of the best at what they did.

[BlueBisonRock]

I'm only following what I've heard from the staff and read on here. Every year it seems as if the staff knows what they have in certain returning guys. Then you have the group of kids that are supposed to step up and improve from year 1 into 2, or 2 into 3. Then you have a walk on like Freeman that to me just came out of no where and surprises (Moody type of guy). As far as specific spots, the X's and the Z's tend to go over my head a bit as far as terminology. I can tell you where a slot guy lines up, but after that I kind of just nod my head when smarter people are talking football. So maybe someone else with a little more offensive football knowledge can answer your question.

Yet you had an extended argument with CAS about the role of the safety... Oh I see it now.

[BISONBRI53]

Whatever happened to JC's brother?

[17>1]

Yet you had an extended argument with CAS about the role of the safety... Oh I see it now.

Haha, you know what, I almost added that to my post. Something to the effect "And here I was arguing with a former Bison LB about safeties in a defense".

[tcbison]

Personally, it seems every fan or media type wants that tall 6'5" receiver but I would take a WR like Ryan Smith or Trevor Gebhart every day and twice on Sunday. They fit the NDSU system better and catch the ball when it is thrown to them. I'm interested in seeing how Dimitri Williams does this year.

[17>1]

Personally, it seems every fan or media type wants that tall 6'5" receiver but I would take a WR like Ryan Smith or Trevor Gebhart every day and twice on Sunday. They fit the NDSU system better and catch the ball when it is thrown to them. I'm interested in seeing how Dimitri Williams does this year.

This ^

In this championship run we've had some great ones. Holloway is another guy that comes to mind that was a difference maker at WR.

[THEsocalledfan]

So, who plays on the outside? That is one of my core questions.

[17>1]

So, who plays on the outside? That is one of my core questions.

According to the depth chart, Perk and Freeman are backups to RJ, and Dimitri is the backup to Shep. Frankly man, I don't think you'll really get too many answers until Saturday. We're all equally in the dark on some of these questions you're asking.

[Jay]

So, who plays on the outside? That is one of my core questions.

Any and all. We motion and formation shift so much it doesn't really matter.

[CAS4127]

What kind of game speed does Engle have?


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[Bison20]

Any word on how Hawkins or bridges has looked? I'm sure we will see a bunch of different guys rotating in and out the first few games

[Farmer63]

NDSU's style of offense requires and values running backs, full backs, and tight ends more than receivers. You can see it in the scholarships that are offered.

[CAS4127]

What kind of game speed does Engle have?


Sent from my iPhone.

Ahem????


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[ndsubison1]

WR Depth is a huge concern. Hopefully Williams steps up

[THEsocalledfan]

Listening to new Ryan and Ross podcast; Ross is convinced they hope outside guy is Dallas Freeman.

[EndZoneQB]

Ahem????


Sent from my iPhone.

Bingo. This has always worried me. I watched some of his highlights and he moves like a 6'5'' FCS receiver. More of a possession-type, if I had to guess based on my limit knowledge of him. The x-factor is his ability to create separation over and above his speed.

[CAS4127]

Bingo. This has always worried me. I watched some of his highlights and he moves like a 6'5'' FCS receiver. More of a possession-type, if I had to guess based on my limit knowledge of him. The x-factor is his ability to create separation over and above his speed.

Thanks. Was wondering if anyone had same thoughts as me. Separation will need to come at ball possession point rather than during route IMO. Will likely be a solid blocker tho.


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[EC8CH]

What kind of game speed does Engle have?


Sent from my iPhone.

Agree that on his HS tape his speed didn't jump out at you. Hopefully that's not the case on the field in college or it's something he can improve upon during a redshirt year. If he looked like a burner at 6'5" he probably wouldn't be at NDSU though.

[thebigund]

I'm guessing what you just said is part of it. I'd imagine some of the better receivers know that the Bison don't pass that much and they're gonna have to spend more time blocking than catching.....I'm guessing a player that looks at himself as a big time receiver is gonna look at that and say "I'm gonna go where they pass the ball more"....just spitballing here.

This is a very good point. Even when UND was in the darkest deepest point of the Mussman era we were able to recruit great talent at WR. The chuck the pigskin bs offense that we were doing had to have been a big selling point because it was basically the only one. Right now we have a team that is 10X what those Mussman teams were but our WR group isn't anywhere near what it was. A lot of the top WR recruits play a spread in HS and want to play a spread in college.

[thebigund]

Agree with you. I'll take a H. Ward over a R. Moss. And those two are some of the best at what they did.

You're kidding right? Wines Hard over the best WR ever? GTFOH

[thebigund]

Thanks. Was wondering if anyone had same thoughts as me. Separation will need to come at ball possession point rather than during route IMO. Will likely be a solid blocker tho.


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Your best hope is that he could end up like a Brandon Kaufman type with good top end speed but not a really quick first 5 yards. Kaufman ran something like a 10.8 100m in HS though, did Engle do track?

[TwinCityBison]

Agree that on his HS tape his speed didn't jump out at you. Hopefully that's not the case on the field in college or it's something he can improve upon during a redshirt year. If he looked like a burner at 6'5" he probably wouldn't be at NDSU though. Sean is a long strider that runs extremely well and runs in the high 4.5's. He has a chance to be a 4.4 guy with a year in the program and with Kramer.

[MAKBison]

You're kidding right? Wines Hard over the best WR ever? GTFOH

The best receiver ever at the long game, the guy jumps like a dear and can out stride most everyone. However, not so great in the short and middle game and nonexistent in the run game. So for the brand of FB I like, Yeah, HW over Moss any day of the week. WBTW is the point, NDSU is run orientated. They want receives that run solid routes and can take on a LB. We are not looking for Moss we are looking or Ward, which is what influences the type of players we bring in.

[thebigund]

The best receiver ever at the long game, the guy jumps like a dear and can out stride most everyone. However, not so great in the short and middle game and nonexistent in the run game. So for the brand of FB I like, Yeah, HW over Moss any day of the week. WBTW is the point, NDSU is run orientated. They want receives that run solid routes and can take on a LB. We are not looking for Moss we are looking or Ward, which is what influences the type of players we bring in.
Yup no good in the short and intermediate .....

http://youtu.be/-d5jyfNzgsg

[thebigund]

A real one trick pony

http://youtu.be/KxTnVAARhTA

[MAKBison]

[QUOTE=thebigund;1142123]A real one trick pony


I am not saying he is not a great receiver, I am saying I will take a Ward over the a Moss any day. There is a reason one was a SB MVP and the other was not. There is a reason one played on like 7 teams and the other played on one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWmR3kltOsA

[MAKBison]

[QUOTE=thebigund;1142123]A real one trick pony

Its a classic case of how you measure a guys worth.....IMHO I take this guy every time



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmtNjzWlgd8

[thebigund]

[QUOTE=thebigund;1142123]A real one trick pony


I am not saying he is not a great receiver, I am saying I will take a Ward over the a Moss any day. There is a reason one was a SB MVP and the other was not. There is a reason one played on like 7 teams and the other played on one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWmR3kltOsA

Randy's the GOAT. That's all I need to say.

[17>1]

For the sake of bringing this conversation back to NDSU WR's, where are people coming up with their assumptions about Sean and his game speed? Is it from his high school tape or have you guys seen him play in person? A pretty recent post indicates he apparently can run in the 4.5's and that seems pretty quick to me, however CAS knows as well as anyone that game speed and a 40 time are two completely different things. I'll withhold any assumption about Sean and his game speed until I see him play an actual college football game.

[mtoutfitter]

Sean is a long strider that runs extremely well and runs in the high 4.5's. He has a chance to be a 4.4 guy with a year in the program and with Kramer.

I'm NOT calling you out by any means just want to say that SO many of these times from kids seem to be exaggerated. For instance the school up north is constantly thumping their chests about times in the 4.4 to 4.5 range and I simply don't believe it. Like CAS said earlier if he was indeed running at that clip, being 6'5'', he probably wouldn't be at NDSU.

Everyone seems to throw out this really fast 40 time but when it comes to Pro Day and Combine timers.... everyone that was a 4.5 seems to suddenly be in the 4.7 range. Even JC who's now in the NFL was a 4.6 IIRC.

[EndZoneQB]

Sean is a long strider that runs extremely well and runs in the high 4.5's. He has a chance to be a 4.4 guy with a year in the program and with Kramer.

These guys nailed it, below, before I could even post.


For the sake of bringing this conversation back to NDSU WR's, where are people coming up with their assumptions about Sean and his game speed? Is it from his high school tape or have you guys seen him play in person? A pretty recent post indicates he apparently can run in the 4.5's and that seems pretty quick to me, however CAS knows as well as anyone that game speed and a 40 time are two completely different things. I'll withhold any assumption about Sean and his game speed until I see him play an actual college football game.


I'm NOT calling you out by any means just want to say that SO many of these times from kids seem to be exaggerated. For instance the school up north is constantly thumping their chests about times in the 4.4 to 4.5 range and I simply don't believe it. Like CAS said earlier if he was indeed running at that clip, being 6'5'', he probably wouldn't be at NDSU.

Everyone seems to throw out this really fast 40 time but when it comes to Pro Day and Combine timers everyone that was a 4.5 seems to suddenly be a 4.7 or lower. Even JC who's now in the NFL was a 4.6 IIRC.

Game speed is more important and being a long strider can be a disadvantage getting in and out of breaks...generally causing them to have to chop their feet or risk rounding out the routes. The advantage to it, IME, is that it's quite a bit harder to judge a long strider when you are playing in off coverage. I know, personally, I've had guys look like they were standing still until they were right on top of me. All of my knowledge of him is based on his HS highlight tape, so take that for what it's worth.

I'm also of the belief that in our system, we don't necessarily need a big body WR. Guys with quick feet that can sit in the zones in our west coast offense and then get YAC have worked pretty well so far. As long as we have a deep threat, we should be ok. If it happens to be Engel based on separation at the point of attack, I'd be more than happy. I just need to see it before I believe it.

[MAKBison]

[QUOTE=MAKBison;1142129]

Randy's the GOAT. That's all I need to say.

Wards a warrior Now back to SE :-)

[17>1]

These guys nailed it, below, before I could even post.





Game speed is more important and being a long strider can be a disadvantage getting in and out of breaks...generally causing them to have to chop their feet or risk rounding out the routes. The advantage to it, IME, is that it's quite a bit harder to judge a long strider when you are playing in off coverage. I know, personally, I've had guys look like they were standing still until they were right on top of me. All of my knowledge of him is based on his HS highlight tape, so take that for what it's worth.

I'm also of the belief that in our system, we don't necessarily need a big body WR. Guys with quick feet that can sit in the zones in our west coast offense and then get YAC have worked pretty well so far. As long as we have a deep threat, we should be ok. If it happens to be Engel based on separation at the point of attack, I'd be more than happy. I just need to see it before I believe it.

Good post! Thanks!

[FrozenTech]

From what I've read and what Coach K has said as well as hearing Engle was getting a lot of reps with the ones for a redshirt prior to his injury I think if he hadn't gotten injured in the middle of install and had picked up the offense he had a real solid chance of getting his shirt pulled. Hopefully the existing corps can step up because I think a guy like Sean could really flourish under Kramer. And while we might not *need* a big body receiver on the outside it is nice to have.

[wagsabison]

You're kidding right? Wines Hard over the best WR ever? GTFOH

That's what I was thinking... you don't take Ward over Moss.