NDSU vs SDSU

[Big Bird]

Even though both teams have had pretty different seasons, I still think NDSU has a chance to win this dual today. The path to victory is wins at 125, 141, 149, 184, and HWT with bonus at 125, 184, and HWT. Here's my prediction:

125- Rodriguez maj Gillette. Could just be a reg dec, or it could be a bigger win.
133- Simms dec Nico. Simms is probably favored to win by more than a dec, but I'm putting faith in Nico.
141- Gross dec Bengston. Gross has been wrestling really well of late and Bengston needs to attack. Toss up
149- Ream dec Kocer. I still think it'd be beneficial for Kocer to win this one, but I think Clay wins. Toss up
157- Pack maj Gliva. Just a matter of how big of a win it'll be.
165- Zilverberg dec Nehring. Nehring needs to control the ties and slow Zilverberg down as best he can.
174- Kocer dec Thompson. Thompson has been able to slow down Kocer in the past, so I expect to see him. Otherwise I expect at least a major.
184- Zillmer maj Ayers. I'd love to see a body lock to a fall.
197- Rotert dec Paxton. Hopefully Paxton can keep it to a dec.
HWT- Tynan fall Macki. Macki does NOTHING and Tynan is a much better wrestler.

19-17 SDSU.

[SC_TX]

Explosive start to this one. Cracking atmosphere

[SC_TX]

Nice performance by the NDSU Fighting Zilmeriguez's.

[BYZEN]

That referee should be working junior high matches, not Big XII. :facepalm: :facepalm:
Sent from my Windows phone using Tapatalk

[Sweepsingle]

3 Wins can not be blamed on the referee...If not for the Zilmer and Rodriguez with an occasional win by Tyanan...this team would not even be ranked in the tournament field. When you have a packed house and the gym is going crazy...how can the team be flat?

Really deflating to see how this season has played out. At least we can cheer for the two studs to advance to the NCAA's and become AA's. Hayden still has a shot at the title!

[roadwarrior]

Takedowns seem to be a lost art....

[roadwarrior]

Takedowns seem to be a lost art....

[Big Bird]

All in all, pretty bad dual....mainly because of the officiating. I'm not sure I've seen a performance where the ref had this level of inconsistency. He also seemed to wilt whenever pressured to make a call. I get that this can occur at Carver Hawkeye, but shouldn't happen in a dual between NDSU and SDSU. I'm fairly confident that he didn't know about the new stalling rules this year, and it consistently showed. I saw exactly 1 instance where he called "action" as the wrestlers went out of bounds. The stalling was an absolute joke with 0 consistency. For the first half of the dual, there was no consistency with the stalemates and the SDSU fans mocked the ref pretty good on it and he pretty much stopped calling them midway through the dual. Stopping the 141 match at the very end when Bengston had a clear reversal and a very real chance to tie it up with a quick exposure was inexcusable. I don't expect refs to be perfect or to agree with all of the calls, but I do expect consistency and general knowledge of basic rules and principles.

125- Rodriguez looked great yet again. Had the tech locked up with his last takedown, but still able to get the fall. Gillette had 1 stalling call all match...1...he did absolutely nothing and Rodriguez dominated him in every facet and Gillette raced for the edge and a fresh start numerous times.
133- Nico got majored because of a questionable stall call and because the Bison coaching staff inexplicably had Nico choose down. I was flummoxed when they initially made the decision, and the period showed why. Nico just isn't strong enough to get away from Simms, and that was abundantly clear after the first period.
141- Bengston isn't 100% but his mindset is what is most broken. Do something, anything really. You're supposed to be solid from the front head, but I haven't seen him really do anything effective from it all year.
149- Too flat footed. I was surprised to see him pick down, but he did get away. I just don't understand what has happened to his leg riding ability from last year.
157- Gliva wrestled well and Pack clearly isn't 100%. I still don't understand the decision to put Gliva down in the third period. He was more than competitive on his feet, Pack was limping badly, Pack hadn't been close on any takedown attempt, Gliva had the only takedown of the match AND Pack is really good on top....yet they picked down...
165- Nehring is flat footed on his feet. It's been a consistent problem and not getting better. He could've finished several takedowns, but didn't. At least he was active on bottom.
174- Embarrassing finish for McNutt. Just absolutely stopped wrestling and gave up a major. Coach Garnett was so disgusted, he ripped off his suit jacket, and threw it at the stage. McNutt needs to develop a gas tank and bulk up. Hell, shoot for 184 next year.
184- Zillmer is an all time NDSU great, if not the greatest.
197- Popp wrestled well, considering the huge size and strength difference. I don't like Rotert at all and find him highly overrated.
HWT- What a terrible match. Macki is soooo bad and did literally nothing all match. I hated the Tynan celebration at the end as well. Your team just finished generally getting there asses handed to them by your rivals and you snuck away with an overtime win over perhaps the worst D1 starter at your weight???? Yeah, that calls for taunting the SDSU fans...

NDSU Grades:
Officiating- F
Coaching- D
Wrestling- C+ (Rodriguez and Zillmer were great, while Tynan won, and Gliva and Bengston were in it vs good competition)
Operations- D (Vettel was awful and the delay at the beginning sucked)
Atmosphere- A-, The crowd was actually vocal and it helped having a bus full of SDSU fans in attendance.

[SC_TX]

Big Bird you bring up some good points. What do you think of the difference between the SDSU bench and NDSU bench? SDSU coaches and players were up and yelling most of the match, supporting their guys and yes maybe being annoying in some spots but that could just be looking through Bison goggles. Meanwhile the NDSU coaches aren't nearly as active or vocal during the dual and the wresters do not support their teammates whatsoever. This was an intense dual that had so many ulterior things happen to spice things up, from the power fail early, the awful officiating. Vettel having a disaster of a day (I'm glad I am not the only one that noticed, from several stumbles over Zilmer's senior day reader, to forgetting to announce certain weights as they began to getting far too worked up for a PA at things like officiating and replays) and SDSU's intensity was perfect for the wild dual it was whole NDSU's deer in the headlights silence was just swallowed up.

[Sweepsingle]

While watching the two contrasts in the the way the teams were coached, how the wrestlers prepared, supported their teams, etc. It is clear that the Rabbits are far ahead of the Bison. The teams are a direct reflection of their coaches. Kish is conservative and not a dynamic personality. His Coaches Corner sessions are stiff and dry. They lack excitement and energy. While the Monday Jacked Up sessions are full of energy and enthusiasm...Exactly the way that Bono is on the bench and how he leads the team. The lack of enthusiasm is directly reflected in the energy and performance of the team. Today SDSU showed up and expected to win...they brought energy and a winning attitude in to our house and spanked us! To make matters worse...we can not even create a professional performance environment to recognize our ONLY Senior! Really disappointing...how can we expect top recruits to want to be a part of this train wreck?

[BisoninNWMN]

It all starts at the top. Kish is putting bad dual teams out on the mat. Sure, there are a couple of very good individuals but overall the team is not good.

There is a huge difference in coaches......HUGE!

[Mr Meaty]

It all starts at the top. Kish is putting bad dual teams out on the mat. Sure, there are a couple of very good individuals but overall the team is not good.

There is a huge difference in coaches......HUGE!

Just my thought but does NDSU have a mentor for new/younger coaches to help them with things or at they just put out their to succeed or fail on their own. I see it with Kish and Walseth. I am not saying they are bad coaches. I just wondering if their is someone on staff to help them succeed. I have faith in both that they are capable.

[Bisonator98]

Wrestling is about Jr's and Sr's IMO. This team is just too young at most weights. Give them another year or 2.

[Big Bird]

Big Bird you bring up some good points. What do you think of the difference between the SDSU bench and NDSU bench? SDSU coaches and players were up and yelling most of the match, supporting their guys and yes maybe being annoying in some spots but that could just be looking through Bison goggles. Meanwhile the NDSU coaches aren't nearly as active or vocal during the dual and the wresters do not support their teammates whatsoever. This was an intense dual that had so many ulterior things happen to spice things up, from the power fail early, the awful officiating. Vettel having a disaster of a day (I'm glad I am not the only one that noticed, from several stumbles over Zilmer's senior day reader, to forgetting to announce certain weights as they began to getting far too worked up for a PA at things like officiating and replays) and SDSU's intensity was perfect for the wild dual it was whole NDSU's deer in the headlights silence was just swallowed up.

I didn't have a problem with the bench. Thanks to the officiating, Kish was exasperated towards the end of the dual, and I can't blame him. As the HWT match was winding down, he made sure all of the wrestlers were up and vocal and that was nice to see. SDSU did do a better job of it throughout the dual, but both teams had a really good idea who was going to win after the 141 match and it's a lot easier to be loud and fired up when things are going well.

Also, Manny was even getting after the ref at times, and that doesn't happen often. I like Garnett. How ticked he was after McNutts match was refreshing to see.

[Gladiator Dad]

3 Wins can not be blamed on the referee...If not for the Zilmer and Rodriguez with an occasional win by Tyanan...this team would not even be ranked in the tournament field. When you have a packed house and the gym is going crazy...how can the team be flat?

Really deflating to see how this season has played out. At least we can cheer for the two studs to advance to the NCAA's and become AA's. Hayden still has a shot at the title!

I can honestly say that in the 16 years my son has wrestled I have blamed a loss on an official less than five times but I can honestly say after going back and watching his match from Sunday three times (I wanted to make sure I didn't have rose colored glasses on) I believe that the official missed some calls that ultimately cost him the match. I especially watched the so called take down at the end of the first several times and for the life of me I can't see how you call a take-down in the middle of a scramble. The second missed call is when he reversed him in the 2nd and didn't receive any back-points, he didn't get a 4 count but there was ample time for a 2-3 count. The reversal that he gave up in the 2nd is clearly on him, he took a risk that didn't pay off to say the least. In a 9-6 match, you take away the 2 for the takedown and give the 2 for the backpoints and if my math is correct that's a 8-7 win. I highly doubt he cuts him in the 3rd so you could argue that it could've been a 8-6 win, either way without a review system being available, ther'e no way to argue anything. The review system not being available is just not acceptable by the way. I will also say that in Mitch Bengston match the official stopping the action when Mitch was taking him to his back is just not forgivable and that clearly played a part in Mitch loosing that match. For the life of me I have no idea why an official would stop a match at that point. As for the rest of the losses, not much you can defend in most of those matches.

As for who has been winning on the team this year outside of Josh & Hayden, here is the breakdown. Clearly some issues at some of the weights no argument to be made by me on that but when you say that Tynan is the only one wining besides Hayden & Josh, I would point out Bengston, Ream & Gliva with 15, 18 & 17 wins on the year each. I think they match Tynan's 18 on the year. Bengston would have a couple of more wins I would think if he was not out due to injury.

MITCH BENGTSON, So., 141/149, St. Cloud, Minn. (St. Cloud Apollo HS)
Overall: 15-9 Duals: 4-2 Pins: 5 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 0

NICO COLUNGA, Fr., 133, Oakdale, Calif. (Oakdale HS)
Overall: 14-16 Duals: 2-6 Pins: 4 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 3

KYLE GLIVA, So., 149/157, Inver Grove Heights, Minn. (Simley HS)
Overall: 17-11 Duals: 3-4 Pins: 1 Tech Falls: 3 Major Decisions: 3

TYLER McNUTT, RFr., 165/174, Saint Joseph, Mo. (Benton HS)
Overall: 11-11 Duals: 1-4 Pins: 2 Tech Falls: 3 Major Decisions: 1

GRANT NEHRING, So., 157/165, Kimball, Minn. (St. Cloud Apollo HS)
Overall: 5-9 Duals: 4-5 Pins: 4 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 0

LOGAN PAXTON, Jr., 197, Elk Grove, Calif. (Sacramento CC/Pleasant Grove HS)
Overall: 6-17 Duals: 1-8 Pins: 1 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 0

CHARLEY POPP, RFr., 174/184/197, Crystal Lake, Ill. (Prairie Ridge HS)
Overall: 2-7 Duals: 0-2 Pins: 0 Tech Falls: 1 Major Decisions: 0

CLAY REAM, So., 149/157, Wentzville, Mo. (Holt HS)
Overall: 18-14 Duals: 4-6 Pins: 3 Tech Falls: 3 Major Decisions: 3

JOSH RODRIGUEZ, Jr., 125, Guadalupe, Calif. (Righetti HS)
Overall: 30-7 Duals: 9-1 Pins: 7 Tech Falls: 7 Major Decisions: 6

BLAKE THOMPSON, RFr., 174, Clovis, Calif. (Utah Valley/Clovis HS)
Overall: 5-13 Duals: 2-5 Pins: 0 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 1

BEN TYNAN, Jr., 285, Kennewick, Wash. (Highline College/Hanford HS)
Overall: 18-10 Duals: 7-3 Pins: 4 Tech Falls: 1 Major Decisions: 2

TOMMY WALTON, So., 141, Fargo, N.D. (Fargo North HS)
Overall: 7-8 Duals: 1-2 Pins: 1 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 1

HAYDEN ZILLMER, Sr., 184, Crosby, Minn. (Crosby-Ironton HS)
Overall: 28-3 Duals: 10-0 Pins: 9 Tech Falls: 6 Major Decisions: 7

[Gladiator Dad]

I didn't have a problem with the bench. Thanks to the officiating, Kish was exasperated towards the end of the dual, and I can't blame him. As the HWT match was winding down, he made sure all of the wrestlers were up and vocal and that was nice to see. SDSU did do a better job of it throughout the dual, but both teams had a really good idea who was going to win after the 141 match and it's a lot easier to be loud and fired up when things are going well.

Also, Manny was even getting after the ref at times, and that doesn't happen often. I like Garnett. How ticked he was after McNutts match was refreshing to see.

I had talked to Coach Garnett at the end of last week and I know he has been putting in a lot of time working with McNutt, I'm sure the frustration was due to in large part some mistakes that Tyler made that they have been working to correct.

In looking forward to next year, some of the Freshman that will be starting next year in my opinion have had a pretty good Red-Shirt Season and I look forward to seeing them next year.

CORDELL EATON, Fr., 197, Long Grove, Iowa (North Scott HS)
Overall: 21-5 Duals: 0-0 Pins: 7 Tech Falls: 0 Major Decisions: 4

ANDREW FOGARTY, Fr., 157/165, Jordan, Minn. (Scott West HS)
Overall: 26-5 Duals: 0-0 Pins: 4 Tech Falls: 6 Major Decisions: 5

Fogarty has grown this season and most likely will be at 165 next season but both of these young men will be able to come in next year and contribute right away.

[Sweepsingle]

Records can be subjective...the quality of the dual teams scheduled this year is very disappointing. The Bison tournament was down in overall competition. When you look at the records of the team...how many of those 15, 16, 17 wins for guys are from weaker opponents. In the tough tournaments and against the few tough dual teams...the Bison wrestlers have been over matched.

This is Kish's Senior class...what has happened to all of his recruits over the last 4 years? There should be more than one senior. I get that it it still a young team...but when you say wait until next year and name just two more guys in the redshirt class that can come in and contribute...that will not make the Bison competitive in the Big XII.

When you compare Bono to Kish...same level on most aspects...former D2 schools...in the Dakotas...same recruiting areas...There is quickly becoming a separation in programs...SDSU will be a top 10 team in the next couple of years...and NDSU will stay mid tier...Unless something changes...It is going to be more of the same for the Bison...high hopes at the start of the year...no growth in the team during the season...and there is always next year at the end of the season!

[BisoninNWMN]

Wrestling is about Jr's and Sr's IMO. This team is just too young at most weights. Give them another year or 2.


This team is always "young".....every year. Kids do not stay the course and that is why the Bison are perpetually "young".

[Gladiator Dad]

Records can be subjective...the quality of the dual teams scheduled this year is very disappointing. The Bison tournament was down in overall competition. When you look at the records of the team...how many of those 15, 16, 17 wins for guys are from weaker opponents. In the tough tournaments and against the few tough dual teams...the Bison wrestlers have been over matched.

This is Kish's Senior class...what has happened to all of his recruits over the last 4 years? There should be more than one senior. I get that it it still a young team...but when you say wait until next year and name just two more guys in the redshirt class that can come in and contribute...that will not make the Bison competitive in the Big XII.

When you compare Bono to Kish...same level on most aspects...former D2 schools...in the Dakotas...same recruiting areas...There is quickly becoming a separation in programs...SDSU will be a top 10 team in the next couple of years...and NDSU will stay mid tier...Unless something changes...It is going to be more of the same for the Bison...high hopes at the start of the year...no growth in the team during the season...and there is always next year at the end of the season!

The Bison was down this year but I know Ream & Bengston didn't wrestle in the Bison. The team wrestled at the Daktronics, Cliff Keen, Reno Tournament of Champions and Midlands. I think those are very respectable tournaments the last I checked. I know SDSU wrestled a tough dual schedule this year but their tournament schedule consisted of the Dak, Midlands & the Cyclone Open but again their dual schedule was tough.

Bengston
Reno Tournament of Champions (12-20-15, 141, 6th Place)
W fall Matt Weber (MSU-Northern), 0:53
W fall Mike Shaw (Eastern Michigan), 3:00
L dec Tristen Moran (Unattached), 3-0
W dec Jarod Maynes (Utah Valley), 4-2
W fall Lincoln Olson (Unattached), 4:14
L major dec Ian Nickell (CSU Bakersfield), MD 8-0
L medical forfeit Cole Weaver (Indiana), MFF

Cliff Keen Invitational (12-4-15, 141)
W tiebreaker-2 Jared Maynes (Utah Valley), TB-2 4-3
L dec #8 Solomon Chishko (Virginia Tech), 6-2
W fall Noah Teaney (Oklahoma), 0:35
W dec George Fisher (Michigan), 3-0
L dec Matt Manley (Missouri), 11-6

Warren Williamson/Daktronics Open (11-1-15, 149, 4th Place)
W fall Colin Ayers (Augustana), 6:09
W dec Jordan Shearer (Nebraska), 2-0
W dec Carson Brolsma (Minnesota), 4-0
L dec #6 Jake Sueflohn (Nebraska), 7-0
W tie breaker-1 over Tyler Stenberg (Northern State), TB-1 13-7
L dec Fredy Stroker (Minnesota), 8-1

Ream
Midlands Championships (12-29-15)
L tech fall Michael Kremerer (Iowa), TF 18-3
W dec Kenan Carter (Old Dominion), 6-5
W tech fall Blayne Briceno (Iowa State), TF 19-4
L dec Max Thomsen (Northern Iowa), 6-3

Reno Tournament of Champions (12-20-15, 5th Place)
W tech fall Brandon Weber (MSU-Northern), TF 23-4 6:23
W major dec Chandler Michael (Southern Oregon), MD 9-0
W dec Luke Blanton (Indiana), 13-7
L dec #18 Geo Martinez (Boise State), 8-4
L major dec Paul Fox (Stanford), MD 11-3
W sudden victory-1 Kyle Gliva (North Dakota State), SV-1 5-3

Cliff Keen Invitational (12-4-15)
L dec #17 Matt Krauser (Arizona State), 6-4
W dec Destin McCauley (Nebraska-Kearney), 6-4
W fall Bradford Gerl (Cal Baptist), 7:00
W dec Joey Delgado (Oregon State), 9-2
L major dec Geo Martinez (Boise State), 20-8
L major dec #17 Matt Krauser (Arizona State), MD 14-3
W dec Joey Galasso (Cornell), 9-6

Warren Williamson/Daktronics Open (11-1-15, 2nd Place)
W tech fall Tayt Boeckholdt (South Dakota State), TF 16-1
W fall Devin Tortorice (Unattached), 5:46
W major Justin Arthur (Nebraska), MD 13-5
W injury default Jake Short (Minnesota), INJ. 1:29
L dec #6 Jake Sueflohn (Nebraska), 8-7


Yeah, You're right it looks like pretty lower tier competition, I guess I will just have to be put in my place on this one.

[BYZEN]

I can honestly say that in the 16 years my son has wrestled I have blamed a loss on an official less than five times but I can honestly say after going back and watching his match from Sunday three times (I wanted to make sure I didn't have rose colored glasses on) I believe that the official missed some calls that ultimately cost him the match. I especially watched the so called take down at the end of the first several times and for the life of me I can't see how you call a take-down in the middle of a scramble. The second missed call is when he reversed him in the 2nd and didn't receive any back-points, he didn't get a 4 count but there was ample time for a 2-3 count. The reversal that he gave up in the 2nd is clearly on him, he took a risk that didn't pay off to say the least. In a 9-6 match, you take away the 2 for the takedown and give the 2 for the backpoints and if my math is correct that's a 8-7 win. I highly doubt he cuts him in the 3rd so you could argue that it could've been a 8-6 win, either way without a review system being available, ther'e no way to argue anything. The review system not being available is just not acceptable by the way. I will also say that in Mitch Bengston match the official stopping the action when Mitch was taking him to his back is just not forgivable and that clearly played a part in Mitch loosing that match. For the life of me I have no idea why an official would stop a match at that point. As for the rest of the losses, not much you can defend in most of those matches.


I believe the official refused to use the review system when it appeared to us that Kish was asking for a review. He did use it once but he refused to overturn his own ruling. He was clearly intimidated by Bono and was oblivious to him on the mat and in front of the scorers table. He was amateurish at best. IMHO 2 officials are much better than one.

[Big Bird]

I'd just like to add that the program isn't going to shut down due to one down year. I've been one of the people worried about SDSUs rise and NDSUs apparent demise, but it isn't nearly as bleak. SDSU has lost Louie Sanders, Cameron Sykora, and Anthony Cefolo from last years recruiting class, and has alienated Collin Holler pretty well. Cefolo was already a starter and Sykora was being counted on as a 4 year starter as well. SDSU loses Gillette, Simms, and Pack this year, while we lose Zillmer. Fogarty will step in and be a NQ right away and Eaton won't be a world beater, but he will be a massive upgrade at 197. McNutt and Popp have a whole offseason to bulk up and Nielson and Harrington both have shown some promise, so 174 and 184 could be OK.

Strides must be made by everyone. We've seen guys with bad gas tanks, no offense, terrible mat wrestling, and pretty everything else this year. The coaching staff needs to do a much better job of getting these guys better prepared and become better in match strategists too. They also need to recruit better on the whole. Last year's debacle was embarrassing and we're fortunate we got Sykora back, but we still lost multiple others (losing Rylee Streiffel will really hurt) and we haven't landed any blue chip recruits this year yet (which I hope isn't a reflection on what went down last year). Buuuuuut, with all that said....better times are on the horizon and I think we beat SDSU next year.

PS: We're going to have 2 AAs and a guy with a chance at a title this year, while SDSU will remain with 0 AAs

[CAS4127]

Is it just me, or are wrestlers kinda of little bitches?!


Sent from my iPhone.

[BisoninNWMN]

I'd just like to add that the program isn't going to shut down due to one down year. I've been one of the people worried about SDSUs rise and NDSUs apparent demise, but it isn't nearly as bleak. SDSU has lost Louie Sanders, Cameron Sykora, and Anthony Cefolo from last years recruiting class, and has alienated Collin Holler pretty well. Cefolo was already a starter and Sykora was being counted on as a 4 year starter as well. SDSU loses Gillette, Simms, and Pack this year, while we lose Zillmer. Fogarty will step in and be a NQ right away and Eaton won't be a world beater, but he will be a massive upgrade at 197. McNutt and Popp have a whole offseason to bulk up and Nielson and Harrington both have shown some promise, so 174 and 184 could be OK.

Strides must be made by everyone. We've seen guys with bad gas tanks, no offense, terrible mat wrestling, and pretty everything else this year. The coaching staff needs to do a much better job of getting these guys better prepared and become better in match strategists too. They also need to recruit better on the whole. Last year's debacle was embarrassing and we're fortunate we got Sykora back, but we still lost multiple others (losing Rylee Streiffel will really hurt) and we haven't landed any blue chip recruits this year yet (which I hope isn't a reflection on what went down last year). Buuuuuut, with all that said....better times are on the horizon and I think we beat SDSU next year.

PS: We're going to have 2 AAs and a guy with a chance at a title this year, while SDSU will remain with 0 AAs


Cody Pack as a good chance at AA.

[Sweepsingle]

As I said all records are subjective. Since you wanted to do a comparison of two of the Bison and their tournament results. Lets take a look at some additional information. To be clear, this is not a damnation of these two wrestlers. They are still very young as Sophomores and in the top tier programs would probably not be in the starting lineups until their Junior or Senior years. These two returning NCAA qualifiers are having off seasons. I would never attack a college kid and question their work effort and dedication to the sport. I think in both of these examples, the wrestlers want to be successful and compete for national titles and AA status. I think this is a deeper issue that I will address in the summary.

Bengston 15-9
9 Loses all to wrestlers with winning records
8 of 15 wins over wrestlers with losing records or non-DI wrestlers
5 additional wins against freshman or redshirt freshman
2 additional wins against a 10-8 SR and 10-7 SO
0 - Quality wins

Ream 18-14
14 Loses all to wrestlers with winning records
10 of 18 wins over wrestlers with losing records or non-DI wrestlers
1 additional win over a freshman
3 additional wins over a 13-9 SO, 14-9 SO, 11-10 JR
1 Win over a teammate
That leaves 3 wins over quality opponents.

Summary: We could do a similar analysis of all the wrestlers and it would get much worse. Several members of the team have been beaten by wrestlers with losing records and very few, if any quality wins. I think this information speaks to the points that are being made in this thread.

At this point the Bison are not a quality Division I program. They have a weak schedule and the wrestlers are not prepared to compete with the top tier kids and programs. Clearly the coaching staff is not bringing in top tier talent and the wrestlers that are joining the program are not growing and getting to the next level. That falls directly on the coaching staff. At this point there should be 4 or 5 seniors and 3 or 4 juniors and 1 or 2 sophomores or redshirt freshman in the lineup. That is not the case.

How are the Bison and Coaching staff going to address these issues so that they can compete to be a top 10 team. SDSU has a solid formula and are making progress…so we know it can be done with the right personnel.

[Bisonator98]

Shows what happens when you end up with the wrong recruits for a couple years. BTW did Tyler Lehmann leave Nebraska too? I don't see him on their roster anymore.

[Answer Guy]

Is it just me, or are wrestlers kinda of little bitches?!

It's you and the wrestlers. Both are little bitches.

[BisoninNWMN]

As I said all records are subjective. Since you wanted to do a comparison of two of the Bison and their tournament results. Lets take a look at some additional information. To be clear, this is not a damnation of these two wrestlers. They are still very young as Sophomores and in the top tier programs would probably not be in the starting lineups until their Junior or Senior years. These two returning NCAA qualifiers are having off seasons. I would never attack a college kid and question their work effort and dedication to the sport. I think in both of these examples, the wrestlers want to be successful and compete for national titles and AA status. I think this is a deeper issue that I will address in the summary.

Bengston 15-9
9 Loses all to wrestlers with winning records
8 of 15 wins over wrestlers with losing records or non-DI wrestlers
5 additional wins against freshman or redshirt freshman
2 additional wins against a 10-8 SR and 10-7 SO
0 - Quality wins

Ream 18-14
14 Loses all to wrestlers with winning records
10 of 18 wins over wrestlers with losing records or non-DI wrestlers
1 additional win over a freshman
3 additional wins over a 13-9 SO, 14-9 SO, 11-10 JR
1 Win over a teammate
That leaves 3 wins over quality opponents.

Summary: We could do a similar analysis of all the wrestlers and it would get much worse. Several members of the team have been beaten by wrestlers with losing records and very few, if any quality wins. I think this information speaks to the points that are being made in this thread.

At this point the Bison are not a quality Division I program. They have a weak schedule and the wrestlers are not prepared to compete with the top tier kids and programs. Clearly the coaching staff is not bringing in top tier talent and the wrestlers that are joining the program are not growing and getting to the next level. That falls directly on the coaching staff. At this point there should be 4 or 5 seniors and 3 or 4 juniors and 1 or 2 sophomores or redshirt freshman in the lineup. That is not the case.

How are the Bison and Coaching staff going to address these issues so that they can compete to be a top 10 team. SDSU has a solid formula and are making progress…so we know it can be done with the right personnel.






This is what I have been questioning for a few years now. Why is the wrestling team always "young"? Every start to the year there are a ton of new freshman and then you do not see a lot of them next year. Look at this year......ONE senior. When Zillmer was a true freshman there were 10 other true freshman and 3 RFR.........and he is the only one left....:facepalm:

This year's junior class has 5 guys. Two years ago there were 20 freshman....:omfg: and 7 RFR......where did everyone go?

[RadioBison]

PS: We're going to have 2 AAs and a guy with a chance at a title this year, while SDSU will remain with 0 AAs

An NC would take a lot of the sting out of this season.

[56BISON73]

This is what I have been questioning for a few years now. Why is the wrestling team always "young"? Every start to the year there are a ton of new freshman and then you do not see a lot of them next year. Look at this year......ONE senior. When Zillmer was a true freshman there were 10 other true freshman and 3 RFR.........and he is the only one left....:facepalm:

This year's junior class has 5 guys. Two years ago there were 20 freshman....:omfg: and 7 RFR......where did everyone go?

Thats what Ive been wondering. A few years ago we were supposedly tearing it up with all of these great recruits and the future looked good. What happened? Did they not come or not work out?

[RadioBison]

Shows what happens when you end up with the wrong recruits for a couple years. BTW did Tyler Lehmann leave Nebraska too? I don't see him on their roster anymore.

I try not to worry about those two any more.

[CAS4127]

See post 22! Attitude is "It's all about me"!


Sent from my iPhone.

[RadioBison]

Is it just me, or are wrestlers kinda of little bitches?!


Sent from my iPhone.

This team needs your support. Someone needs to tell them to go make an effin play.

[Gladiator Dad]

This just in Iowa looses dual to NC State. The Iowa Wrestling Program is in a dramatic state of decline and Brands should be fired!!

[BisoninNWMN]

This just in Iowa looses dual to NC State. The Iowa Wrestling Program is in a dramatic state of decline and Brands should be fired!!

Sam Stoll had an injury default for 6 points to NC State. Both teams won 5 weight classes. Brooks got upset at 184 for the Hawkeyes....that was the match.

[Gladiator Dad]

Sam Stoll had an injury default for 6 points to NC State. Both teams won 5 weight classes. Brooks got upset at 184 for the Hawkeyes....that was the match.

I watched the dual but I think you missed the sarcasm I was trying to point out and what I am about to say isn't directly pointed to you BisoninNWMN just something I would like to get out there.

It takes time to build a program and in today's instant satisfaction society I think people tend to overlook that. Is everything perfect right now, no it's not, but there are things that are happening everyday within the program that the coaches and wrestlers are trying to do to get better. Too many people get on here and hide behind screen names as say some pretty insulting things from time to time and they don't have a clue as to what is going on. If you want a coach that jumps up and down like a monkey entertaining a crowd at the zoo then that's fine. You hear a lot on this website that they should have hired Steiner, that would've been a good choice as well but I can tell you that he wouldn't be jumping around like Bono either. For the record Zalesky and Steiner have been at Oregon St since 2006 and I just looked and I don't see them ranked in the top 20 either but how can that be? Back to Bono, That's Bono's style and he has always been that way and most likely always will, if it works for him that's fine but not everyone has to be like that to instill passion into their wrestlers. If you think everything is fine in SDSU Land think again, go ask Collin Holler how things are going, why did Sykora leave, why did a MO Kid (name escapes me) de-commit from SDSU? There are many things that happens during a wrestling season that causes kids leave or stay at programs, some can be publicly discussed and others because of the laws of this great land cannot. Kids are going to come and kids are going to leave, it's been that way since the dawn of time and I don't think that's going to change. If you have the nads to get on here and rip coaches and wrestlers apart, then have the nads to drive over to the campus during a practice and tell them to their faces but my guess is that most of you probably won't do that, I guess it's easier to hide behind some sudo screen name and complain about everything. I was once told that if you are going to complain about something that's fine but you better have a solution and not just a complaint. So what are your solutions? How do you convince a kid to come to Fargo North Dakota? How do you come up with enough money to land some of these Blue Chip Recruits that you all want up here when there are only 9.9 Scholarships available to each NCAA Div I Team? Yeah I know that the Iowa's, Penn St. OKSt, OK and some of the other top tier schools land kids every year but kids grow up wanting to wrestle for these traditional power house wrestling schools, after those top tier schools everyone else is scrambling to get some great kids to come to their programs. I would suggest going to your HS State Tournament and watch how many coaches from all Divisions approach the wrestlers, parents and coaches of kids that are being recruited and then tell me how easy it is to keep kids at home or pull them away from another state. How many of you NDSU fans have ever talked to a kid to convince him to attend NDSU and wrestle? I can say that I don't even live up there but I am always telling kids that they should consider NDSU. If this is suppose to be the school that you want to cheer for and see grow in a top wrestling school, then become part of the solution and not part of a problem. Support the kids that are there, do you honestly think they get up the morning of dual or tournament thinking I'm going to go out there and go 0-2 today or loose the dual match for the team? Encourage the kids you like to see attend NDSU.

I know I am ranting but think about this, In today's social media world if you were a potential recruit and got on this board and saw what people post about wrestlers and coaches, would you want to come to NDSU?

Sorry for the Rant.

Pat Ream
Proud Father of a NDSU Wrestler
Proud Supporter of NDSU Wrestling

[larson311]

Well said Pat, some people's negativity sucks.

[BisoninNWMN]

Nothing wrong with asking questions.

Is it criticizing when a person says the talent level at many weights is not there to be productive at the upper echelon of D1?
Is it criticizing when fans ask why coaches do what they do and how they do it?
Is it criticizing when fans ask why the attrition rate is so horrible at NDSU in the Kish era?
Is it criticizing when there are double digit freshman that come in and many times only 1 lasts until their senior year?
Is it criticizing when fans ask "is the program going in the right direction"?

All a matter of perspective.

[mango]

I watched the dual but I think you missed the sarcasm I was trying to point out and what I am about to say isn't directly pointed to you BisoninNWMN just something I would like to get out there.

It takes time to build a program and in today's instant satisfaction society I think people tend to overlook that. Is everything perfect right now, no it's not, but there are things that are happening everyday within the program that the coaches and wrestlers are trying to do to get better. Too many people get on here and hide behind screen names as say some pretty insulting things from time to time and they don't have a clue as to what is going on. If you want a coach that jumps up and down like a monkey entertaining a crowd at the zoo then that's fine. You hear a lot on this website that they should have hired Steiner, that would've been a good choice as well but I can tell you that he wouldn't be jumping around like Bono either. For the record Zalesky and Steiner have been at Oregon St since 2006 and I just looked and I don't see them ranked in the top 20 either but how can that be? Back to Bono, That's Bono's style and he has always been that way and most likely always will, if it works for him that's fine but not everyone has to be like that to instill passion into their wrestlers. If you think everything is fine in SDSU Land think again, go ask Collin Holler how things are going, why did Sykora leave, why did a MO Kid (name escapes me) de-commit from SDSU? There are many things that happens during a wrestling season that causes kids leave or stay at programs, some can be publicly discussed and others because of the laws of this great land cannot. Kids are going to come and kids are going to leave, it's been that way since the dawn of time and I don't think that's going to change. If you have the nads to get on here and rip coaches and wrestlers apart, then have the nads to drive over to the campus during a practice and tell them to their faces but my guess is that most of you probably won't do that, I guess it's easier to hide behind some sudo screen name and complain about everything. I was once told that if you are going to complain about something that's fine but you better have a solution and not just a complaint. So what are your solutions? How do you convince a kid to come to Fargo North Dakota? How do you come up with enough money to land some of these Blue Chip Recruits that you all want up here when there are only 9.9 Scholarships available to each NCAA Div I Team? Yeah I know that the Iowa's, Penn St. OKSt, OK and some of the other top tier schools land kids every year but kids grow up wanting to wrestle for these traditional power house wrestling schools, after those top tier schools everyone else is scrambling to get some great kids to come to their programs. I would suggest going to your HS State Tournament and watch how many coaches from all Divisions approach the wrestlers, parents and coaches of kids that are being recruited and then tell me how easy it is to keep kids at home or pull them away from another state. How many of you NDSU fans have ever talked to a kid to convince him to attend NDSU and wrestle? I can say that I don't even live up there but I am always telling kids that they should consider NDSU. If this is suppose to be the school that you want to cheer for and see grow in a top wrestling school, then become part of the solution and not part of a problem. Support the kids that are there, do you honestly think they get up the morning of dual or tournament thinking I'm going to go out there and go 0-2 today or loose the dual match for the team? Encourage the kids you like to see attend NDSU.

I know I am ranting but think about this, In today's social media world if you were a potential recruit and got on this board and saw what people post about wrestlers and coaches, would you want to come to NDSU?

Sorry for the Rant.

Pat Ream
Proud Father of a NDSU Wrestler
Proud Supporter of NDSU Wrestling

I agree with a lot of what you said but please, please, please do not do the bolded part. That is a recruiting violation.

This is more pertaining to football and Twitter but helpful none the less http://www.sbnation.com/2015/2/3/7969649/should-you-bother-football-recruits-on-the-internet-a-flow-chart

[Gladiator Dad]

Nothing wrong with asking questions.

Is it criticizing when a person says the talent level at many weights is not there to be productive at the upper echelon of D1?
Is it criticizing when fans ask why coaches do what they do and how they do it?
Is it criticizing when fans ask why the attrition rate is so horrible at NDSU in the Kish era?
Is it criticizing when there are double digit freshman that come in and many times only 1 lasts until their senior year?
Is it criticizing when fans ask "is the program going in the right direction"?

All a matter of perspective.

It's not wrong to ask questions but again I ask the question. What are you doing to help the program? It's easy to complain but hard to become part of the solution and I notice that you won't sign your comment with your real name, which is OK, it's your right not to do so but confirms my point that most people will jump on the criticizing band wagon when they can hide.

You keep talking about everyone that has left so I will look at who came in with Clay in 2013-14. 1) Mitch*Bengtson - still here 2) Alex*Blaney - left team 3) Clay*Cathey - left team 4) Mitchell*Friedman - Still Here 5) Kyle*Gliva - Still Here 6) Grant*Nehring - Still Here 7) Jerrad*Nieland - Still here 8) Tommy*Petersen - Left Team 9) Clay*Ream - Still Here 10) Nate*Rykerd - Still Here 11) Connor*Schlotfeldt - Left Team 12) Cole*Sladek - Left Team 13) Joe*Umlauf - Left Team 14) Tommy*Walton - Still Here In case you were counting that's 8 still here 6 gone, so I guess we didn't have double digit freshman leave then and for the record in looking back there has not been double digit freshman leave each year since Kish has been here. If you don't believe me they have the old rosters right on the NDSU website for you to go take a look at.

I will give you a little of perspective on the attrition rate between NDSU and Minny during the Kish Era, I used MN since most of you are very familiar with both schools starting in the 2011-12 Season, oddly enough they attrition rate is pretty close, so I guess that's why the guys over on the Guillotine want to fire J-Rob too and think that team sucks as well.

2011-12 (Non Returners from Previous Year based off of published rosters, not counting seniors)
NDSU = 7
U of MN = 10

2012-13
NDSU = 10
U of MN = 6

2013-14
NDSU = 11
U of MN = 10

2014-15
NDSU = 12
U of MN = 2

NDSU Average = 10
U of MN Average = 6.5

7-10 is about the average for most D1 Schools in case you were wondering. Yes last year there were a number of kids that did leave but they were never going to start here anyway so why stay? One of those kids decided that he didn't want to go to college and went home to a Technical School to be a Diesel Mechanic, Two of them left for another University and oh they have already left that school as well I believe, a couple of them were tired of wrestling and decided to just be students and a couple couldn't get over nagging injuries and decide to call it and I imagine there were a few who didn't like Kish and that's why they left.

You asked about why no seniors only Zillmer. It looks like there were about 9 Freshman that came in with Zillmer, 1) Anthony*Caputo 2) Tanner*Carlisle 3) Kameron*Hamley 4) Travis*Kammerer 5) Kody*Sorenson 6)Colt*Castlebury 7) Caleb*Meide 8) Dallen*Brauer 9) Grant*Dullinger. I don't know most of these wrestlers so I can't say that they were not good enough to wrestle D1 or not but it's weird we're right in that 7-10 range again.

If my count is correct there about 16 Freshman on the team this year. All of which have wrestled in some opens this year. Let's see who comes back next year and who doesn't. I am going to go out on a limb and say that at least 1/2 don't come back. Why I don't know but if I were to set the over/under that's where I put the number.

[Gladiator Dad]

I agree with a lot of what you said but please, please, please do not do the bolded part. That is a recruiting violation.

This is more pertaining to football and Twitter but helpful none the less http://www.sbnation.com/2015/2/3/7969649/should-you-bother-football-recruits-on-the-internet-a-flow-chart

Meant to say "Consider" not convince because of that fact.

[Abe1727]

Thanks for the insight MR Ream. I enjoy watching your Son and the young Bison team wrestle. Next year will be better as they all grow together as young Men, wrestlers and a team. I feel the Coaches are doing the best they can with a very, very young team. Good luck to our Bison wrestlers at the Big 12 tournament and the NCAA Division 1 national championships.



Abel Colunga

[Bisonator98]

It's not wrong to ask questions but again I ask the question. What are you doing to help the program? It's easy to complain but hard to become part of the solution and I notice that you won't sign your comment with your real name, which is OK, it's your right not to do so but confirms my point that most people will jump on the criticizing band wagon when they can hide.

You keep talking about everyone that has left so I will look at who came in with Clay in 2013-14. 1) Mitch*Bengtson - still here 2) Alex*Blaney - left team 3) Clay*Cathey - left team 4) Mitchell*Friedman - Still Here 5) Kyle*Gliva - Still Here 6) Grant*Nehring - Still Here 7) Jerrad*Nieland - Still here 8) Tommy*Petersen - Left Team 9) Clay*Ream - Still Here 10) Nate*Rykerd - Still Here 11) Connor*Schlotfeldt - Left Team 12) Cole*Sladek - Left Team 13) Joe*Umlauf - Left Team 14) Tommy*Walton - Still Here In case you were counting that's 8 still here 6 gone, so I guess we didn't have double digit freshman leave then and for the record in looking back there has not been double digit freshman leave each year since Kish has been here. If you don't believe me they have the old rosters right on the NDSU website for you to go take a look at.

I will give you a little of perspective on the attrition rate between NDSU and Minny during the Kish Era, I used MN since most of you are very familiar with both schools starting in the 2011-12 Season, oddly enough they attrition rate is pretty close, so I guess that's why the guys over on the Guillotine want to fire J-Rob too and think that team sucks as well.

2011-12 (Non Returners from Previous Year based off of published rosters, not counting seniors)
NDSU = 7
U of MN = 10

2012-13
NDSU = 10
U of MN = 6

2013-14
NDSU = 11
U of MN = 10

2014-15
NDSU = 12
U of MN = 2

NDSU Average = 10
U of MN Average = 6.5

7-10 is about the average for most D1 Schools in case you were wondering. Yes last year there were a number of kids that did leave but they were never going to start here anyway so why stay? One of those kids decided that he didn't want to go to college and went home to a Technical School to be a Diesel Mechanic, Two of them left for another University and oh they have already left that school as well I believe, a couple of them were tired of wrestling and decided to just be students and a couple couldn't get over nagging injuries and decide to call it and I imagine there were a few who didn't like Kish and that's why they left.

You asked about why no seniors only Zillmer. It looks like there were about 9 Freshman that came in with Zillmer, 1) Anthony*Caputo 2) Tanner*Carlisle 3) Kameron*Hamley 4) Travis*Kammerer 5) Kody*Sorenson 6)Colt*Castlebury 7) Caleb*Meide 8) Dallen*Brauer 9) Grant*Dullinger. I don't know most of these wrestlers so I can't say that they were not good enough to wrestle D1 or not but it's weird we're right in that 7-10 range again.

If my count is correct there about 16 Freshman on the team this year. All of which have wrestled in some opens this year. Let's see who comes back next year and who doesn't. I am going to go out on a limb and say that at least 1/2 don't come back. Why I don't know but if I were to set the over/under that's where I put the number.
It would seem wrestling attrition rates are similar to most other sports. Just seems to impact it more since like I said it's a Jr/Sr dominated sport. Takes special kids to put the effort in during the early years. Hopefully these young guys stick it out.

[1998braves64]

Would only having 9.9 scholarships for (ignorance here)~ 30 wrestlers also has some impact on kids leaving the wrestling program? Hard to spread out much money to all the wrestlers? Going to be some disappointed kids after a year or two as you have a short time to prove yourself to get more $?? I guess to me the ratio of scholarship to roster is way different than other sports minus baseball perhaps?

[Gladiator Dad]

Would only having 9.9 scholarships for (ignorance here)~ 30 wrestlers also has some impact on kids leaving the wrestling program? Hard to spread out much money to all the wrestlers? Going to be some disappointed kids after a year or two as you have a short time to prove yourself to get more $?? I guess to me the ratio of scholarship to roster is way different than other sports minus baseball perhaps?

It plays a part for some kids I know. Unfortunately wrestling is no different than other "Non-Revenue Generating Sports" like track, soccer, baseball & La Cross at some schools. The vast majority of Scholarship Money goes to Football & Basketball.

[Sweepsingle]

I get where you want to stand up and support your son...as all good dads want to do. Nobody is being critical of the kids here.

You wanted to brag about the number of wins they have and how hard they are working. I simply pointed out that the quality of their wins...or lack there of is an indication of the strength of the program. NDSU wrestling right now is not very good. Period. The attrition rate of wrestlers is alarming. You can't blame it on the scholarship allotment or the kids. There is something wrong culturally within the program that is making guys leave. Successful coaches have deep junior and senior laden teams if they are in the top tier. Minnesota's current formula is flawed as well. Of course Kish comes from that school of thought. Bring in 15-20 recruits and see which ones stick. How long do you think it takes before recruits figure that out and decide to go somewhere else?

They want to know they are part of a winning culture and community. It speaks volumes to the type of team chemistry when the bench sits quiet while guys are on the mat.

As a gladiator...you should know that 300 of us...or 30 in this case...can conquer the world if we have a strong leader and all stick together. I don't see that when I am watching the Bison. They look like they are running wild across the prairie headed for a cliff...we all know how that ends!

[Gladiator Dad]

I get where you want to stand up and support your son...as all good dads want to do. Nobody is being critical of the kids here.

You wanted to brag about the number of wins they have and how hard they are working. I simply pointed out that the quality of their wins...or lack there of is an indication of the strength of the program. NDSU wrestling right now is not very good. Period. The attrition rate of wrestlers is alarming. You can't blame it on the scholarship allotment or the kids. There is something wrong culturally within the program that is making guys leave. Successful coaches have deep junior and senior laden teams if they are in the top tier. Minnesota's current formula is flawed as well. Of course Kish comes from that school of thought. Bring in 15-20 recruits and see which ones stick. How long do you think it takes before recruits figure that out and decide to go somewhere else?

They want to know they are part of a winning culture and community. It speaks volumes to the type of team chemistry when the bench sits quiet while guys are on the mat.

As a gladiator...you should know that 300 of us...or 30 in this case...can conquer the world if we have a strong leader and all stick together. I don't see that when I am watching the Bison. They look like they are running wild across the prairie headed for a cliff...we all know how that ends!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything is perfect and I don't think it ever can be no matter where you are at. I don't blame anything on scholarship money either, I was just answering the question. As for the wins issue, I think if you look at pretty much anyone outside the Big 10 you could probably break down their win and loss record in a similar fashion in what you do in your earlier post. I will also say in the sport of wrestling at least there are some top quality kids that don't wrestle D1 for all kinds of reasons. Take a look at Grandview for example, their 141lber won midlands and I know they have a couple of other kids that were highly recruited by D1 schools that just couldn't get in a D1 school for various reasons. One of Clay's wins at Cliff Keen was over Destin McCauley (Nebraska-Kearney), I don't think there's anyone who follows this sport that wouldn't consider that kid an excellent wrestler. Point being is I learned along time ago that I don't judge a kid's ability by the size of the school he chose or in some cases chose him to wrestle at.

As far as Clay goes, if you ever get a chance to talk to him, ask him how critical his dad can be on him. It should be an interesting answer, LOL, I just don't choose to put our conversations out on a public forum.

I will end this reply with this, I know they (NDSU Coaching Staff) are looking just about everywhere in the country to find quality kids, they're definitely not sitting back and they are also trying to change some of the attitudes that some have on the current team, all of this takes time. If they get even half of who they are looking at I think things will be in the right direction.

[BisoninNWMN]

It's not wrong to ask questions but again I ask the question. What are you doing to help the program? It's easy to complain but hard to become part of the solution and I notice that you won't sign your comment with your real name, which is OK, it's your right not to do so but confirms my point that most people will jump on the criticizing band wagon when they can hide.

You keep talking about everyone that has left so I will look at who came in with Clay in 2013-14. 1) Mitch*Bengtson - still here 2) Alex*Blaney - left team 3) Clay*Cathey - left team 4) Mitchell*Friedman - Still Here 5) Kyle*Gliva - Still Here 6) Grant*Nehring - Still Here 7) Jerrad*Nieland - Still here 8) Tommy*Petersen - Left Team 9) Clay*Ream - Still Here 10) Nate*Rykerd - Still Here 11) Connor*Schlotfeldt - Left Team 12) Cole*Sladek - Left Team 13) Joe*Umlauf - Left Team 14) Tommy*Walton - Still Here In case you were counting that's 8 still here 6 gone, so I guess we didn't have double digit freshman leave then and for the record in looking back there has not been double digit freshman leave each year since Kish has been here. If you don't believe me they have the old rosters right on the NDSU website for you to go take a look at.

I will give you a little of perspective on the attrition rate between NDSU and Minny during the Kish Era, I used MN since most of you are very familiar with both schools starting in the 2011-12 Season, oddly enough they attrition rate is pretty close, so I guess that's why the guys over on the Guillotine want to fire J-Rob too and think that team sucks as well.

2011-12 (Non Returners from Previous Year based off of published rosters, not counting seniors)
NDSU = 7
U of MN = 10

2012-13
NDSU = 10
U of MN = 6

2013-14
NDSU = 11
U of MN = 10

2014-15
NDSU = 12
U of MN = 2

NDSU Average = 10
U of MN Average = 6.5

7-10 is about the average for most D1 Schools in case you were wondering. Yes last year there were a number of kids that did leave but they were never going to start here anyway so why stay? One of those kids decided that he didn't want to go to college and went home to a Technical School to be a Diesel Mechanic, Two of them left for another University and oh they have already left that school as well I believe, a couple of them were tired of wrestling and decided to just be students and a couple couldn't get over nagging injuries and decide to call it and I imagine there were a few who didn't like Kish and that's why they left.

You asked about why no seniors only Zillmer. It looks like there were about 9 Freshman that came in with Zillmer, 1) Anthony*Caputo 2) Tanner*Carlisle 3) Kameron*Hamley 4) Travis*Kammerer 5) Kody*Sorenson 6)Colt*Castlebury 7) Caleb*Meide 8) Dallen*Brauer 9) Grant*Dullinger. I don't know most of these wrestlers so I can't say that they were not good enough to wrestle D1 or not but it's weird we're right in that 7-10 range again.

If my count is correct there about 16 Freshman on the team this year. All of which have wrestled in some opens this year. Let's see who comes back next year and who doesn't. I am going to go out on a limb and say that at least 1/2 don't come back. Why I don't know but if I were to set the over/under that's where I put the number.


What's putting my name on here having anything to do with this?

Brad Campbell
NDSU -92

How is that for you?

Comparing the Gophers and Bison in wrestling is like apple and oranges. U of M is an establish powerhouse that is having a down year this year. Kids will go there to wrestle for no money or turn down partials to go there.

I support the program by going to the matches. I'm a TMer for 13 years and most of my support goes to scholarships. NDSU is a football school and wrestling can be a nice complement in the department. The fact is that the attrition rates are crap and there is no argument about that.

[Gladiator Dad]

What's putting my name on here having anything to do with this?

Brad Campbell
NDSU -92

How is that for you?

Comparing the Gophers and Bison in wrestling is like apple and oranges. U of M is an establish powerhouse that is having a down year this year. Kids will go there to wrestle for no money or turn down partials to go there.

I support the program by going to the matches. I'm a TMer for 13 years and most of my support goes to scholarships. NDSU is a football school and wrestling can be a nice complement in the department. The fact is that the attrition rates are crap and there is no argument about that.

Nice to meet you Brad but why is comparing U of MN to NDSU comparing Apple and Ornges? I did the comparison to point out that is the average across the college landscape. Is it right maybe not but there's no commitment these days to much of anything unfortunately. if you do a little research you would see that this is the average for the vast majority of college programs. I agree that it's a high number of kids that drop every year with these programs but what's the answer in your opinion to stop the bleeding?

[BisoninNWMN]

Nice to meet you Brad but why is comparing U of MN to NDSU comparing Apple and Ornges? I did the comparison to point out that is the average across the college landscape. Is it right maybe not but there's no commitment these days to much of anything unfortunately. if you do a little research you would see that this is the average for the vast majority of college programs. I agree that it's a high number of kids that drop every year with these programs but what's the answer in your opinion to stop the bleeding?




It is apples/oranges IMO because U of M is a powerhouse in college wrestling that can draw top kids across the country with giving little money to them. That is the way it is with the top programs. Kids will obviously go there even if they do not crack the starting lineup. That is why I have brought up the Blees kid from Bismarck as an example. He would be the starter here at 157/165 right now but he is buried on the depth chart at OK State. I get it.....kids will go where they want to and maybe that is his dream to wrestle for Coach Smith...I don't know. But you would think the Bison coaches could land some of these local guys that are very good. If Kish wants to recruit nation wide that is fine, he is the coach. But in my mind, fans can ask questions.

You, as a father of a wrestler here probably has the best insight on here and the state of the program.

I think this program can be a consistent top 20 program and the occasional run at a top 10. To do this, the program has to keep the kids in the program....or it helps a lot. When you consistently see huge numbers of freshman then in a couple of years there are not many left. I'll go to an early dual and see most of the lineup is different from last year......and it is not from senior graduation. The Bison are perpetually "young" every year.....why is this? Kish has his style, all coaches do. He is not a "Brands" type of coach obviously and you can see "Brands" style in the Iowa wrestlers and how they wrestle. Same thing when Gable was there. The team takes on the personality of the coach.

What are the answers?

Good question. You being a dad....what do you see?

In wrestling, esp at D1 programs that are not in the upper tier, they should be upper class heavy IMO. There will always be some young guys breaking into the lineup because they are good and beat out the guy above them.....look at Penn State, freshman ranked #1. I know Penn State and Coach Sanderson is not a good comparison but at NDSU you would think guys that put the time in would be the starters throughout the lineup. Maybe they are now.

My big question is the attrition rates here on a yearly basis.

[Gladiator Dad]

I agree that it can be a consistent top 20 program and you are right in saying that they need to build depth.

I have seen that when a program transitions from D2 to D1 that during that transition period that you end up with some wrestlers who might not be up to par at the next level and since you are on your probation period you really can't pickup quality kids then either. Take a look at Grand Canyon, I have really felt bad for them struggling through their transition period. It then takes a few years to really start the building process. I think the year Clay was recruited was the start of that building process. I think there have been a few missed opportunities with some of the local ND kids that could have helped build the program for sure but there has been some setbacks within the program. Let's use 133 this year as an example. Scherkenbach was scheduled to be the starter and I would have loved to see him wrestle this year but his knee which he had surgery in the off season, said otherwise. It then fell to Redshirt Freshman Nick O'Brien, unfortunately for Nick he has had some lasting effects from a concussion that he suffered during a practice. The coaching staff tried to avoid pulling Nico's Redshirt but it was obvious that Nico was the best to fill the spot. I think Nico is going to be very good and has stepped in and has gotten better as the season has went on but it sure would have been nice to have kept him on the shelf for another year. That attempt to build depth unfortunately fell short but I think if you can keep the core of Clay's recruiting class together and start looking for their replacements now so they can train with these guys as they get older and mature will start to build that depth you are looking for. In the meantime you still have to address the obvious needs at some of the weights. The problem now becomes how to attract the athletes you need to fill immediate holes and still have the funds left over to to try and start building the depth and honestly I am not sure how to go about doing that yet. I do know that there're a few Redshirts on the team now that are going to really help change the dynamics gong forward. I know the coaches have had long discussions this year to pull more redshirts or just be patient and wait for next year, I think we know what that decision was now that the end of the regular season has concluded.

[Sweepsingle]

Love your optimism and you do wear rose colored glasses. Kish has been here 5 years...the transition period is long over. The roster is not loaded with DI talent. In fact many of the wrestlers would not make top tier DII schools starting lineups. The team has no identity other to say that they wrestle uninspired, don't cheer for or support each other, and most of the time look over matched. The coaches are not developing the talent and in fact several of the guys have taken steps backwards.

9.9 scholarships is plenty to build a great team. There are kids that get other funds, grants and scholarships from a variety of resources so the coach does not need to use all of the 9.9 athletic money to build the team. It appears that the relationships between the coaches and athletes and athletes to athletes is just not there. That is entirely on the coaching staff and creating and environment of winning. It appears that our wrestlers and coaches are not bought in to being the best that they can be. Great Coaches are hard to come by...but we should at least be able to get a good one!

[BisoninNWMN]

Love your optimism and you do wear rose colored glasses. Kish has been here 5 years...the transition period is long over. The roster is not loaded with DI talent. In fact many of the wrestlers would not make top tier DII schools starting lineups. The team has no identity other to say that they wrestle uninspired, don't cheer for or support each other, and most of the time look over matched. The coaches are not developing the talent and in fact several of the guys have taken steps backwards.

9.9 scholarships is plenty to build a great team. There are kids that get other funds, grants and scholarships from a variety of resources so the coach does not need to use all of the 9.9 athletic money to build the team. It appears that the relationships between the coaches and athletes and athletes to athletes is just not there. That is entirely on the coaching staff and creating and environment of winning. It appears that our wrestlers and coaches are not bought in to being the best that they can be. Great Coaches are hard to come by...but we should at least be able to get a good one!



Hard to argue against most of this. The talent comment is spot on IMO and that falls directly on the coaches.

[Bisonator98]

Love your optimism and you do wear rose colored glasses. Kish has been here 5 years...the transition period is long over. The roster is not loaded with DI talent. In fact many of the wrestlers would not make top tier DII schools starting lineups. The team has no identity other to say that they wrestle uninspired, don't cheer for or support each other, and most of the time look over matched. The coaches are not developing the talent and in fact several of the guys have taken steps backwards.

9.9 scholarships is plenty to build a great team. There are kids that get other funds, grants and scholarships from a variety of resources so the coach does not need to use all of the 9.9 athletic money to build the team. It appears that the relationships between the coaches and athletes and athletes to athletes is just not there. That is entirely on the coaching staff and creating and environment of winning. It appears that our wrestlers and coaches are not bought in to being the best that they can be. Great Coaches are hard to come by...but we should at least be able to get a good one!

The past 2 seasons were pretty good. So this year has been a down year. Not exactly time to panic.

[Christopher Moen]

Hate to make excuses, especially when I have no inside information, but this year might be just one of the throw-away years a wrestling program will run into. It happened to us in 1999 and carried somewhat into 2000 during our three National Championships in four years. If this continues into late next year, then I will be worried. I believe what is frustrating as fan, is that this team was on the rise at a consistent rate the past three years.

Hopefully, the coaches can get the program back on course. I know with what Bono and Reader are doing at SDSU, the Bison are going to be in fight for the foreseeable future.

In regards to Vettel, let's remember what he does on daily basis. I know the community is hurting and it can't be any easier on the Police Department. I know as someone who does plenty of announcing for wrestling events, you must do your best to be professional. However, I never lost a coworker like he did.

In regards to announcing on Senior Night, I have a short, funny story about when I use to be the voice for Air Force wrestling. A few years back, one of the nonstarting Seniors for the Falcons had a tricky last name to pronounce and one I had not heard him previously referred to by his teammates and coaches. Right before the ceremony, he told me his last name, Magana, rhymed with lasagna. Unfortunately, I wasn't paying to close attention at that moment due to studying and correcting the script, but when it came to announcing him in front of a huge crowd at Clune Arena, the only thing that entered my mind was the Seinfield episode where Jerry couldn't remember his current girlfriends name, but knew it rhymed with a woman's body part. From that day, poor Magana had a new nickname that is now popular among his Air Force brothers, "Magina."

[RadioBison]

From that day, poor Magana had a new nickname that is now popular among his Air Force brothers, "Magina."

And here I thought you were gonna call him Mulva.

[Christopher Moen]

And here I thought you were gonna call him Mulva.


That's funny. If I had actually pulled that, I don't think anyone would have believed it was an accident as it is too much different from his name.