Attrition

[westnodak93bison]

Listening to Kolpack & Izzo say you cant have attrition that drops classes down to single digits in their video blog and expect to win. My interpretation not their exact words.
Got me thinking. I'll go against the grain here. If a kid doesn't come in and seize playing time or make a significant contribution by the time they are a RSO then they will probably get passed up.
We bring in too many solid kids, even preferred walkons. We are looking for and expect to get the next Heagle, Dudzik, Haeg, Marcus, Billy etc. every year. Kids that can come in and bypass the so-so SO or JR that has been hanging around the program. Best players play. I'm not saying any of these kids are bad players but if a better younger player comes in then move over. What say you.
http://bisonmedia.areavoices.com/?p=92205

[Bison Dan]

Listening to Kolpack & Izzo say you cant have attrition that drops classes down to single digits in their video blog and expect to win. My interpretation not their exact words.
Got me thinking. I'll go against the grain here. If a kid doesn't come in and seize playing time or make a significant contribution by the time they are a RSO then they will probably get passed up.
We bring in too many solid kids, even preferred walkons. We are looking for and expect to get the next Heagle, Dudzik, Haeg, Marcus, Billy etc. every year. Kids that can come in and bypass the so-so SO or JR that has been hanging around the program. Best players play. I'm not saying any of these kids are bad players but if a better younger player comes in then move over. What say you.
http://bisonmedia.areavoices.com/?p=92205
I agree 100% - There's a ton of work involved to be a Bison FB player and if you feel that you're not going to see the field some kids want to move on. Plus our recruiting is getting better and better and some of the young one's will be seeing playing time faster.

[HerdBot]

I wouldn't make much out of it since the 2013 class has a TON of players who are starting, in the rotation, or will be starting.

2014 had 3 guys.

These guys beat out the players in the classes with high attrition and we still have some youth

Also even though the attrition is high we picked up amazing walk ons like Haeg and Schaetz and the guys who remain are studs

[wagsabison]

I don't know the numbers of other FCS schools but I'd imagine the same thing happens at other schools. Some classes stay strong for 4-5 years and others have 50% leave. Not really isolated to NDSU.

[Mr Meaty]

Great competition in practice is what is pushing our program to higher levels. Scout team is smart and good and preps the main squad for the game. Besides the great athleticism of our players , they are intelligent student athletes as well. Great coaches, great players, great administration and of course greatest fan base in the world.

[Vet70]

I don't know the numbers of other FCS schools but I'd imagine the same thing happens at other schools. Some classes stay strong for 4-5 years and others have 50% leave. Not really isolated to NDSU.

I looked everywhere I could think of and couldn't find any source with those FCS figures----some FBS conference data popped up, but that isn't of any help to us. You can find some information on a few schools like ISU-R that had their 2010 class decimated.

[Bison 4 Life]

I wouldn't make much out of it since the 2013 class has a TON of players who are starting, in the rotation, or will be starting.

2014 had 3 guys.

These guys beat out the players in the classes with high attrition and we still have some youth

Also even though the attrition is high we picked up amazing walk ons like Haeg and Schaetz and the guys who remain are studs

That can only help our recruiting.

[Bison Loaf]

To me, it's just a case of diminishing returns from the players standpoint.

I gotta believe that we are bringing in super high quality student-athletes that are very competitive and want to compete for actual PLAYING TIME. Not just a roster spot, but PLAYING TIME. At some point in their careers they may see that there are guys ahead of them on the depth chart that aren't going anywhere, and that the younger guys behind them are equal to or better right now. Human nature takes over and causes one to weigh the benefits (scholarships & being a part of a team) vs. the negatives (lack of playing time) with all the hard work you are putting in.

No one is questioning the desire, work ethic or commitment of these athletes. I'm sure they are working their butt off, in most cases. And certainly injuries may have been a part of it, too. But highly competitive sports like Bison FB is a dog-eat-dog world and I would hope that most understand that coming in.

Bottom line: Sometimes, it's just simply a matter that a guy is better than you, and beat you out in a fair competition. I don't see this as a program negative right now.

[SDbison]

Can't disagree with what is being said in this thread. Also, I think the high expectations at NDSU (win the Natty) and all the dedication and work required can burn out some guys who eventually will quit, even if they have starting potential (like Woods, etc.). The question is will there ever be a year where players leaving impacts the overall quality of starters, back ups and scout teams such that week by week team performance is affected? In other words the new guys can't make up the difference.

[bisonaudit]

Isn't the concern that having a lot of guys wash out before their senior year, especially a couple of years in a row, could be an indication that you weren't recruiting the right guys? Then the question is, have you actually gotten significantly better at recruiting and that's why the underclassmen are pushing some of them out or are you only marginally better at recruiting and as a result the overall talent level is deteriorating?

Alternatively, if you don't think it's really a raw talent issue, why haven't the upperclassmen continued to develop? They should have an inherent advantage via age, experience, and training. Obviously you're not going to hit on every recruit but if the attrition rate is high for a number of classes in a row it's completely legitimate to question why that may be the case and what it may say about where the program could improve. Of course those are complicated questions that likely don't have obvious answers.

[Professor Chaos]

Isn't the concern that having a lot of guys wash out before their senior year, especially a couple of years in a row, could be an indication that you weren't recruiting the right guys? Then the question is, have you actually gotten significantly better at recruiting and that's why the underclassmen are pushing some of them out or are you only marginally better at recruiting and as a result the overall talent level is deteriorating?

Alternatively, if you don't think it's really a raw talent issue, why haven't the upperclassmen continued to develop? They should have an inherent advantage via age, experience, and training. Obviously you're not going to hit on every recruit but if the attrition rate is high for a number of classes in a row it's completely legitimate to question why that may be the case and what it may say about where the program could improve. Of course those are complicated questions that likely don't have obvious answers.
This is a factor in programs all over the country, not just championship caliber ones. I think the question about recruiting the right guys can be answered by looking at why guys are leaving the program. If guys are leaving the program because they don't want to work (during or after their first year) or because of off the field transgressions then I agree that the type of player you're recruiting should be re-evaluated. However, if guys who've put in the work for 2+ years are leaving due to injury or due to the fact that they're getting passed on the depth chart by guys their same age or younger than them I think you're doing the right thing in recruiting.

You can't bring in 25-30 players every year who were the best of the best at the high school level and expect them all to stick around because you know the playing time isn't going to be there for all of them. If you're able to keep the ones that progress the best that's what's most important for the long term sustainability of the program. I feel like the Bison have avoided that bad attrition for the most part and kept it limited to good attrition (if there is such a thing).

I also think there's a domino effect in each individual class. I feel like the incoming class of redshirts really bond that first year and it can either be a good thing if they all stick around for the most part because they've developed such great relationships it's hard to break that up or it can be a bad thing if they see a lot of their best friends on the team no longer there after a year or three and makes it easier for them to call it quits.

[td577]

A lot of great points. I wonder how much of it is due to the grind as much as the playing time. Along with the championships, this is a top 30-40 program at any level of college football in the country. That kind of stature along with the championships requires intense year round work. Outside a handful of studs getting national attention and the program getting national attention, there are a lot of individuals that are working their tails off 12 months a year in relative obscurity outside of Fargo. Then you add the depth chart, there are so many dynamics coming into play. I have a feeling the coaching staff is very good at letting guys know where they stand all the time on the team but things always change. At the WR position alone, you see Moody and Vraa coming back and RJ coming in and moving up. Your work ethic and level hasn't changed and neither has your position on the depth chart. Some of these guys are also finding themselves playing in a system they were not recruited in. The added pressure they are always recruiting your replacement adds a lot of pressure and eliminates complacency. There is no time to take a deep breath and relax while you are a Bison football player.

So I have to think everyone questions where they really fit and what is their value within the system. Then they question if it is personally worth the sacrifice. I don't know if this is where the coaching staff is failing, but maybe there isn't enough time in the day, week, or month to keep preaching to each individual on the team they are just as valuable in year 3 that they were when they were recruited. Maybe our coaching staff doesn't see where time spent in that area has any value to the team anyways. Maybe they have figured out they want the young men who are self-motivated to show up every day and don't need to be coddled into coming back tomorrow. So far, whatever they are doing produces results. In the long run, we will have to wait and see if this has a serious negative impact on the program. We simply might have a staff and program who feel they can work in a positive direction with those who will do anything to stay on the roster. I suppose there could be a mindset that if a kid is questioning his commitment today, he probably will tomorrow.

Those who stay, will be champions. I bet there are only a few kids ever where the thought if they made the right decision never crosses their mind. That is human nature. The program has done pretty well with the ones who have decided the right decision is to see it through to the end.

[HerdBot]

Also consider this. Since we've been playing an extra 4 games per year which amounts to 1-1/2 extra seasons of games and probably 2 years worth of practices, we've been able to develop players quicker and evaluate them much more frequently.

Guys like Nick DeLuca are probably the epitome of this. He came into the program physically ready to go. In Nicks 2 years, he has practiced for 31 games. Last year alone he started 6 games. So in 2 years, the typical team would have had 22 games and practices and Nick has had 31 and he has 2 years left. That's almost a full season more.

Same is true for most of our guys. There is a reason RJ didn't look like a true freshman in the National Champion game. Kids already got more reps than most teams players with 2 years experience

[Bisonwinagn]

I don't see a problem since none of the top players are leaving. It's the same in the job world if you don't get promoted fast enough or get passed over by someone else then it's time to leave and find a new job and maybe get a promotion in the process. If the top talent is leaving then something is wrong.

[bisonaudit]

I don't see a problem since none of the top players are leaving. It's the same in the job world if you don't get promoted fast enough or get passed over by someone else then it's time to leave and find a new job and maybe get a promotion in the process. If the top talent is leaving then something is wrong.

Isn't the concern that attrition is an indication that the program missed on to many recruits not that attrition is an indication that top players are leaving the program?

[Bisonwinagn]

Isn't the concern that attrition is an indication that the program missed on to many recruits not that attrition is an indication that top players are leaving the program?

Yes possibly, but the miss could be on good recruit who is getting beat out by a great recuit. It could mean the recruiting is getting better and was not necessarily bad to begin with.

[56BISON73]

Isn't the concern that attrition is an indication that the program missed on to many recruits not that attrition is an indication that top players are leaving the program?

It runs in cycles. Look at the walker years. They had teams that were pretty well settled with starters for 2-4 years. During those times people are going to leave. We lost players. When the Walkers years were over we were pretty short in some positions. Then we met the MVFC and we had to recruit a different player. After getting up to speed after a couple of poor seasons the cycle is repeating itself. The more good players who are brought in the likely hood of players who havent developed or getting playing time they will leave.

[CaBisonFan]

A worst-case scenario would be if we were having to fill positions by accepting transfers from fbs schools.

[yopaulie]

I agree that this is more cyclical in nature. We had so many 4 (and even 5) year starters of late, that there has been a pileup of underclassmen now competing to start. You may be a senior who is now looking to start for the first time, just like the reshirt freshman, sophmores, and juniors. If you don't start now, your chances are up. Some guys may accept and enjoy the backup role, on a great program, at a great school. But a guy like Mcginnis has the talent to start, and just got caught amongst bison QB greats of Brock and Carson.

[17>1]

I'll try not get long winded, and hopefully I don't repeat something that has already been mentioned. But, with a roster of 100+ kids, does each and every one of these kids actually expect to get significant playing time? I would hope some of them understand that every player on the roster fills a need and has a role on the team, and that doesn't always translate to a starting spot on the field. It might be too much to ask for, but shouldn't we want to have a roster full of kids that simply just want to be Bison, and will do whatever it takes to make the Bison successful?

[56BISON73]

I'll try not get long winded, and hopefully I don't repeat something that has already been mentioned. But, with a roster of 100+ kids, does each and every one of these kids actually expect to get significant playing time? I would hope some of them understand that every player on the roster fills a need and has a role on the team, and that doesn't always translate to a starting spot on the field. It might be too much to ask for, but shouldn't we want to have a roster full of kids that simply just want to be Bison, and will do whatever it takes to make the Bison successful?

Yes we want that. In reality you have talented kids with egos who want to play the game. There is nothing worse than sitting on the sideline knowing you can play.

[td577]

I'll try not get long winded, and hopefully I don't repeat something that has already been mentioned. But, with a roster of 100+ kids, does each and every one of these kids actually expect to get significant playing time? I would hope some of them understand that every player on the roster fills a need and has a role on the team, and that doesn't always translate to a starting spot on the field. It might be too much to ask for, but shouldn't we want to have a roster full of kids that simply just want to be Bison, and will do whatever it takes to make the Bison successful?

Yes we want that. In reality you have talented kids with egos who want to play the game. There is nothing worse than sitting on the sideline knowing you can play.

I think it comes down to more of this. You want kids who want to play. I don't think you want guys who are willing to settle for being on the bench. The other reality is some don't become starters and aren't more than spot role players on this team. You don't want them to lose their drive, but where do they fit? The bigger reality is they can see where if they were in another situation, i.e. another school, they could be playing football on Saturdays.

I don't blame the kids or the coaches. It seems every kid who puts on a Bison jersey gets a chance to outwork and outplay those in front of them on the depth chart. Sometimes it just doesn't happen for them and there are other opportunities for them outside the Bison football team. You only get a short period of time to play a kid's game. There is no fault in wanting to make the most of it.

[1998braves64]

There probably are only a handful of kids who are on the team who maybe think they'll never be a starter and never get to start, maybe they see significant backup time, I guess most of the time I don't check to see what # is on the field in every position. I expect them to perform to their best though. This isn't elementary school or junior high or even small time high school where kids are on the team just to be on the team. You have to put in work to get to be on the team and if you want playing time you really have to work. I agree out of a 100 there may be 5-10 or so kids who are happy where they're at and that they can proclaim themselves a Bison player, but they're likely not getting any scholarship money. But usually if you're putting in that kind of work you want some kind of return.

[HerdBot]

Isn't the concern that attrition is an indication that the program missed on to many recruits not that attrition is an indication that top players are leaving the program?

Yes and no. I mean I look at the guys we missed out on those years and its mixed. SDSU beat us on a couple of guys. 1 isn't on their roster anymore and the other hasn't been an impact guy. We lost out to Ben Lauer who went to the Gophers as a grey shirt but had we gotten him at RT, who knows maybe we don't get Landon Lechler or he doesn't get an opportunity. Or maybe we pass on Plankers. Only a handful of players I really wanted. Brett McMakin at UNI is a stud. Then again if we get him, maybe a guy like Greg Menard or Brad Ambrosius doesn't see as big of an opportunity and signs with someone else.

All I know is you need depth to win

I really don't fault a kid for wanting to leave. You only get 1 change to play college football. The only time I get pissed is when a player gets kicked odd the team or laces as a junior or senior. Woods gets a pass since he wasn't playing much and struggled at times.

[Scooter1]

This is the time of the year that I love reading the message boards. Speculation rules the day for the next five months until it is time to second guess play calling, which appears to be Carson's baby next year. On attrition, recruiting can be 65% talent mixed in with a 35% crap shoot on what the future brings. We can talk about being concerned about attrition but doesn't that concern have to be put in context when you are talking about four consecutive national titles? There is a huge difference in wear and tear when one consistently plays an extra month of football. NDSU has had this situation for the past five seasons but the benefit is the expedited learning curve for the young players who get that extra four weeks of practice. The hard cold reality is teams that consistently get a good recruiting class year after year are going to have good athletes eventually start leaving the program to try to get playing time. The other reality is that players who get their progress retarded due to injury or illness are going to have a harder time keeping pace with their competition. The young kids who are practicing every day during those additional weeks continue to improve while the injured are working to get back to where they were before that injury or illness. It's just a reality that athletes have to deal with. Take Austin Farnlof as an example. He' a guy who has had nothing but crappy luck since he joined the Herd and has busted ass trying to get back to where he was before his injury.
Although I don't like to see players leave, I have to hand it to Alex Hahn for sticking it out as long as he did. If I remember correctly, the kid was battling an illness his first year which set him back significantly. I would love to see where this kid would be at had he not been ill before joining his freshman season. I admire the fact that NDSU stuck with the WR from Kansas (Warren) who got injured his senior season then reinjured his first year in Fargo. The kid transferred out of the program but the commitment that NDSU showed speaks volumes to the kids and coaches of the athletes that the Bison are currently recruiting. This reputation for honoring commitments to athletes will only help with recruiting which, in turn, will attract more skilled athletes, forcing some stagnating or struggling sophomores or juniors to look for other options to get a chance to play ball. It's a problem that is tempered when you consider that the sophomore class for next season has been at NDSU for 31 football games and probably 10 extra weeks of practice. The kids that are left are higher on the learning curve than athletes who have not had this extra time to improve, especially in the mental aspect of the game.
Attrition will always be there and the stakes get bigger the more games you play. I'm happy we have this problem and won't give attrition undue credence until we start losing 80% of the head to head recruiting battles like our peers are currently doing against NDSU. Recruiting is like killing zombies... keep reloading and go after the biggest and fastest first. The others can pick off the slower targets.

[Tatanka]

This is the time of the year that I live reading the message boards. Speculation rules the day for the next five months until it is time to second guess play calling, which appears to be Carson's baby next year. On attrition, recruiting can be 65% talent mixed in with a 35% crap shoot on what the future brings. We can talk about being concerned about attrition but doesn't that concern have to be put in context when you are talking about four consecutive national titles? There is a huge difference in wear and tear when one consistently plays an extra month of football. NDSU has had this situation four the past five seasons but the benefit is the expedited learning curve for the young players who get that extra four weeks of practice. The hard cold reality is teams that consistently get a good recruiting class year after year are going to have good athletes eventually start leaving the program to try to get playing time. The other reality is that players who get their progress retarded due to injury or illness are going to have a harder time keeping pace with their competition. The young kids who are practicing every day during those additional weeks continue to improve while the injured are working to get back to where they were before that injury or illness. It's just a reality that athletes have to deal with. Take Austin Farnlof as an example. He' a guy who has had nothing but crappy luck since he joined the Herd and has busted ass trying to get back to where he was before his injury.
Although I don't like to see players leave, I have to hand it to Alex Hahn for sticking it out as long as he did. If I remember correctly, the kid was battling an illness his first year which set him back significantly. I would love to see where this kid would be at had he not been ill before joining his freshman season. I admire the fact that NDSU stuck with the WR from Missouri who got injured his senior season then reinjured his first year in Fargo. The kid transferred out of the program but the commitment that NDSU showed speaks volumes to the kids and coaches of the athletes that the Bison are currently recruiting. This reputation for honoring commitments to athletes will only help with recruiting which, in turn, will attract more skilled athletes, forcing some stagnating or struggling sophomores or juniors to look for other options to get a chance to play ball. It's a problem that is tempered when you consider that the sophomore class for next season has been at NDSU for 31 football games and probably 10 extra weeks of practice. The kids that are left are higher on the learning curve than athletes who have not had this extra time to improve, especially in the mental aspect of the game.
Attrition will always be there and the stakes get bigger the more games you play. I'm happy we have this problem and won't give attrition undue credence until we start losing 80% of the head to head recruiting battles like our peers are currently doing against NDSU. Recruiting is like killing zombies... keep reloading and go after the biggest and fastest first. The others can pick off the slower targets.

Excellent post.

[ZHerd]

^^^Lol at Zombie killing analogy

[17>1]

This is the time of the year that I love reading the message boards. Speculation rules the day for the next five months until it is time to second guess play calling, which appears to be Carson's baby next year. On attrition, recruiting can be 65% talent mixed in with a 35% crap shoot on what the future brings. We can talk about being concerned about attrition but doesn't that concern have to be put in context when you are talking about four consecutive national titles? There is a huge difference in wear and tear when one consistently plays an extra month of football. NDSU has had this situation four the past five seasons but the benefit is the expedited learning curve for the young players who get that extra four weeks of practice. The hard cold reality is teams that consistently get a good recruiting class year after year are going to have good athletes eventually start leaving the program to try to get playing time. The other reality is that players who get their progress retarded due to injury or illness are going to have a harder time keeping pace with their competition. The young kids who are practicing every day during those additional weeks continue to improve while the injured are working to get back to where they were before that injury or illness. It's just a reality that athletes have to deal with. Take Austin Farnlof as an example. He' a guy who has had nothing but crappy luck since he joined the Herd and has busted ass trying to get back to where he was before his injury.
Although I don't like to see players leave, I have to hand it to Alex Hahn for sticking it out as long as he did. If I remember correctly, the kid was battling an illness his first year which set him back significantly. I would love to see where this kid would be at had he not been ill before joining his freshman season. I admire the fact that NDSU stuck with the WR from Missouri who got injured his senior season then reinjured his first year in Fargo. The kid transferred out of the program but the commitment that NDSU showed speaks volumes to the kids and coaches of the athletes that the Bison are currently recruiting. This reputation for honoring commitments to athletes will only help with recruiting which, in turn, will attract more skilled athletes, forcing some stagnating or struggling sophomores or juniors to look for other options to get a chance to play ball. It's a problem that is tempered when you consider that the sophomore class for next season has been at NDSU for 31 football games and probably 10 extra weeks of practice. The kids that are left are higher on the learning curve than athletes who have not had this extra time to improve, especially in the mental aspect of the game.
Attrition will always be there and the stakes get bigger the more games you play. I'm happy we have this problem and won't give attrition undue credence until we start losing 80% of the head to head recruiting battles like our peers are currently doing against NDSU. Recruiting is like killing zombies... keep reloading and go after the biggest and fastest first. The others can pick off the slower targets.

Thread////

[CaBisonFan]

Anyone know CJ Smith's condition?

[HerdBot]

This is the time of the year that I love reading the message boards. Speculation rules the day for the next five months until it is time to second guess play calling, which appears to be Carson's baby next year. On attrition, recruiting can be 65% talent mixed in with a 35% crap shoot on what the future brings. We can talk about being concerned about attrition but doesn't that concern have to be put in context when you are talking about four consecutive national titles? There is a huge difference in wear and tear when one consistently plays an extra month of football. NDSU has had this situation four the past five seasons but the benefit is the expedited learning curve for the young players who get that extra four weeks of practice. The hard cold reality is teams that consistently get a good recruiting class year after year are going to have good athletes eventually start leaving the program to try to get playing time. The other reality is that players who get their progress retarded due to injury or illness are going to have a harder time keeping pace with their competition. The young kids who are practicing every day during those additional weeks continue to improve while the injured are working to get back to where they were before that injury or illness. It's just a reality that athletes have to deal with. Take Austin Farnlof as an example. He' a guy who has had nothing but crappy luck since he joined the Herd and has busted ass trying to get back to where he was before his injury.
Although I don't like to see players leave, I have to hand it to Alex Hahn for sticking it out as long as he did. If I remember correctly, the kid was battling an illness his first year which set him back significantly. I would love to see where this kid would be at had he not been ill before joining his freshman season. I admire the fact that NDSU stuck with the WR from Missouri who got injured his senior season then reinjured his first year in Fargo. The kid transferred out of the program but the commitment that NDSU showed speaks volumes to the kids and coaches of the athletes that the Bison are currently recruiting. This reputation for honoring commitments to athletes will only help with recruiting which, in turn, will attract more skilled athletes, forcing some stagnating or struggling sophomores or juniors to look for other options to get a chance to play ball. It's a problem that is tempered when you consider that the sophomore class for next season has been at NDSU for 31 football games and probably 10 extra weeks of practice. The kids that are left are higher on the learning curve than athletes who have not had this extra time to improve, especially in the mental aspect of the game.
Attrition will always be there and the stakes get bigger the more games you play. I'm happy we have this problem and won't give attrition undue credence until we start losing 80% of the head to head recruiting battles like our peers are currently doing against NDSU. Recruiting is like killing zombies... keep reloading and go after the biggest and fastest first. The others can pick off the slower targets.

Well said mang

[Tony Almeida]

Sorry if this was already mentioned...what happened to Anthony Ware RB out of Florida? I see that his #34 now belongs to Ross Effertz a freshman DB out of Mandan, ND...

[A1pigskin]

This is the time of the year that I love reading the message boards. Speculation rules the day for the next five months until it is time to second guess play calling, which appears to be Carson's baby next year. On attrition, recruiting can be 65% talent mixed in with a 35% crap shoot on what the future brings. We can talk about being concerned about attrition but doesn't that concern have to be put in context when you are talking about four consecutive national titles? There is a huge difference in wear and tear when one consistently plays an extra month of football. NDSU has had this situation four the past five seasons but the benefit is the expedited learning curve for the young players who get that extra four weeks of practice. The hard cold reality is teams that consistently get a good recruiting class year after year are going to have good athletes eventually start leaving the program to try to get playing time. The other reality is that players who get their progress retarded due to injury or illness are going to have a harder time keeping pace with their competition. The young kids who are practicing every day during those additional weeks continue to improve while the injured are working to get back to where they were before that injury or illness. It's just a reality that athletes have to deal with. Take Austin Farnlof as an example. He' a guy who has had nothing but crappy luck since he joined the Herd and has busted ass trying to get back to where he was before his injury.
Although I don't like to see players leave, I have to hand it to Alex Hahn for sticking it out as long as he did. If I remember correctly, the kid was battling an illness his first year which set him back significantly. I would love to see where this kid would be at had he not been ill before joining his freshman season. I admire the fact that NDSU stuck with the WR from Missouri who got injured his senior season then reinjured his first year in Fargo. The kid transferred out of the program but the commitment that NDSU showed speaks volumes to the kids and coaches of the athletes that the Bison are currently recruiting. This reputation for honoring commitments to athletes will only help with recruiting which, in turn, will attract more skilled athletes, forcing some stagnating or struggling sophomores or juniors to look for other options to get a chance to play ball. It's a problem that is tempered when you consider that the sophomore class for next season has been at NDSU for 31 football games and probably 10 extra weeks of practice. The kids that are left are higher on the learning curve than athletes who have not had this extra time to improve, especially in the mental aspect of the game.
Attrition will always be there and the stakes get bigger the more games you play. I'm happy we have this problem and won't give attrition undue credence until we start losing 80% of the head to head recruiting battles like our peers are currently doing against NDSU. Recruiting is like killing zombies... keep reloading and go after the biggest and fastest first. The others can pick off the slower targets.

Lots of good points.

[BisonNeil]

I don't see a problem since none of the top players are leaving. It's the same in the job world if you don't get promoted fast enough or get passed over by someone else then it's time to leave and find a new job and maybe get a promotion in the process. If the top talent is leaving then something is wrong.

I don't disagree with the bolded section.

But you all can rationalize this all you want, attrition is not a good thing, and most of you are missing the most important piece. The attrition that is being discussed, as mentioned by me in other threads, is with the 2011 and 2012 classes. Back to back classes in which 2/3 to near 3/4 of the players are gone. In the rest of DI history only the 2008 class had that kind of attrition and it was a class sandwiched around three terrific classes of 2007, 2009 and 2010. The attrition rate of the 2009 and 2010 classes was the lowest in the DI era, and I would argue that low attrition of those two classes is a primary reason why NDSU has four nattys. Talent is one thing, experience is a whole other thing that is just as important.

Sure, perhaps not much talent is leaving, but do we really know that? Given the amount of talent, and the sheer numbers because of low attrition, in the last two classes to graduate, and win four national championships, were they really going to be that impactful? I don't know. But to simply rationalize it by saying better players are in the 2013 and 2014 classes is simplistic thinking. We have no idea how talented these guys are because most of them haven't played a game yet and to say they are that talented is nothing more than wishful thinking because NONE OF US KNOW SHIT about how good they really are.

With that said, I think the reality is that the coaching staff was ill-prepared to recruit and make deep runs in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs while trying to recruit at the same time. Bohl said as much in one of his radio interviews (in 2013 I think). So, I think there is probably some truth to the statements that many of you have made saying that the players who left are being beat out by better players. I think the 2011 and 2012 classes were weak and I think one of the reasons we see so many more verbals early. I think it is probably why they pretty much stick to guys who have been in camp because they are known commodities. These are likely only two of the adjustments the coaching staff had to make in order to get better quality recruits while also making deep playoff runs.

[BisonNeil]

Isn't the concern that attrition is an indication that the program missed on to many recruits not that attrition is an indication that top players are leaving the program?

Yes.

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[BisonNeil]

A worst-case scenario would be if we were having to fill positions by accepting transfers from fbs schools.

You mean like this school? :D

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/22/gopher-jephete-matilus-drops-down-to-fcs-level/

[thebigund]

I'm fine with us taking a few FBS transfers since we had two of our best players transfer up to the FBS.

[CaBisonFan]

I'm fine with us taking a few FBS transfers since we had two of our best players transfer up to the FBS.We've played teams with a lot more fbs transfers. No problem.

[Mr Meaty]

I'm fine with us taking a few FBS transfers since we had two of our best players transfer up to the FBS.

We have played teams with all FBS players on them.

[ZHerd]

We have played teams with all FBS players on them.

So have they. Seems though like the outcomes are always somehow vastly different:biggrin:

[Bisonator98]

We have beat teams with all FBS players on them.

FIFY
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