A new and better FBS thread

[BigHorns]

More proof that the quality of your football program means less and less when it comes to moving up. Missouri St provides a better area for recruiting prospective athletes and students, more eyeballs for TV, and a significantly higher enrollment than NDSU does.

Let's face it - NDSU just doesn't offer much to attract an FBS conference but I don't think NDSU has much interest in CUSA right now anyway.

Yep, for most FBS conferences its all about markets and location. We've never been on CUSA's shortlist. They will add Tarleton and SFA before looking our way.

MWC is really a much better fit for us, and it sounds like there have been some active discussions. Just need the dominos to fall in a way that creates an opening.

[KSBisonFan]

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2024/05/10/missouri-state-conference-usa-missouri-valley-mvc-cusa-conference-realignment/73640094007/

More details in this article.

[NDSUstudent]

MO State going CUSA. Cool, Cool, Cool. Everything is fine here.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/FDI1O7Be2IEAAAAd/fuck-this-everything.gif

[Grizzled]

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2024/05/10/missouri-state-conference-usa-missouri-valley-mvc-cusa-conference-realignment/73640094007/

More details in this article.

Not a team on that schedule that would excite me as a fan. Zero chance this is cost neutral for that department.

[KSBisonFan]

Not a team on that schedule that would excite me as a fan. Zero chance this is cost neutral for that department.

Misery State has always positioned itself as a basketball school and the MVC has been pretty decent. Wichita State leaving hurt a bit, but they're in the running for more than 1 NCAA bid some years.

Is Larson on the phone asking about the basketball opening in the MVC?

Not a direct reply to your post, BTW.

[NDSUstudent]

Misery State has always positioned itself as a basketball school and the MVC has been pretty decent. Wichita State leaving hurt a bit, but they're in the running for more than 1 NCAA bid some years.

Is Larson on the phone asking about the basketball opening in the MVC?

A league that is obsessed with bus trips and small private schools, good luck with that.

They will probably add UST now and the Summit will add the homeless dregs from the WAC since that league is now dead.

[KSBisonFan]

A league that is obsessed with bus trips and small private schools, good luck with that.

They will probably add UST now and the Summit will add the homeless dregs from the WAC.

I agree with both your points. My point is MVC > Summit for stability and funding basketball. I'll take any upward movement at this point, no matter how small.

[THEsocalledfan]

Okay NDSU administration, the the f are you going to do? The house is on fire; REPEAT THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE. Do something or at least say something!

[scottietohottie]

Can somebody do a welfare check on lakes please.

[Strommer10]

Kolpack making a plea for NDSU to finally move up to the FBS:

https://www.inforum.com/sports/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/kolpack-mr-president-the-time-is-now-for-fbs


FCS is hanging in there with just a few football-serious programs capable of winning a national championship this coming fall: South Dakota State, NDSU, Montana and Montana State. By and large, the FCS is dominated by basketball schools playing football.

Yes, there's talk out there that the top FCS programs could join the Group of Five schools to form another D-I subdivision, but how long can you wait? It’s time for NDSU to take the plunge, anyway it can do it.

Too little, too late in my opinion. This push from the local media should have happened 5 years ago.

[bruinbison]

Wyatt Wheeler
@WyattWheeler_NL
·1h

Missouri is no longer the second-largest state in the country with only one FBS program.

[TAILG8R]

Read ML's comments today ... at least publicly the dumbass is content running NDSU football into the ground by saying they need to wait and see how things play out and "when" (big if imo) another tier is created that's where we need to be. What a fuckin dumbass.

If NDSU misses the FBS boat I can tell you that I and my group will have a hard time supporting at the level we currently do. Not happy.

[Professor Chaos]

It is kind of ironic all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how awful the FCS is when it's Missouri St that's leaving. The FCS will be about 99.98% of its former self without da Bears. If anything it makes things harder for NDSU and SDSU to win FCS titles because it takes away a team that has been a perennial cellar dweller in the MVFC outside of the few years Bobby P caught lightning in a bottle with a load of transfers.

[ByeSonBusiness]

Kolpack making a plea for NDSU to finally move up to the FBS:

https://www.inforum.com/sports/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/kolpack-mr-president-the-time-is-now-for-fbs



Too little, too late in my opinion. This push from the local media should have happened 5 years ago.

It took him until now to figure out FCS football has been dying? It's been dying since I was in school.

FCS football is dead. Such is life.

[heckler]

Well they did ask ML about the summit adding hockey and he said everything is on the table... guess that is where our FBS money is going lol.

[NDSUstudent]

Well they did ask ML about the summit adding hockey and he said everything is on the table... guess that is where our FBS money is going lol.

If we aren't going to FBS and we are going to continue to not give a shit about basketball, we may as well start hockey.

[NDSU92]

If we aren't going to FBS and we are going to continue to not give a shit about basketball, we may as well start hockey.

What a waste of money lol. No one cares about it, it will hurt the brand as we won’t be competitive, and the last thing we need is another Olympic sport that we half-ass.

There are 0 people who are asking that we add hockey. Let the average Joe be a NDSU football/UND hockey fan. That school can waste their time and money on a sport that no one cares about. We start hockey I’m never giving another dollar to NDSU athletics at least until dumbass Larsen is gone. If he’s looking for something to do, start campaigning to get NDSU to get NDSU athletics equivalent state/institutional funding to put us amongst our peers. We’re about $10-$15M short in that perspective and if we had that we would’ve been Mountain West long ago.

The tone deafness of hearing people complaining about the lack of FBS and then giving them hockey instead would be 100% on-brand tho.

[reformedUNDfan]

try to make an SMU-deal with the MWC

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

Assuming ML knows more than us mere peons, the number he threw out there for the 'premier league' was 40 teams, which would seem to suggest 20/20 SEC/B1G

IF this is real, that leaves many teams still left in FBS, vying for CFP spot and (hypothetically) 2nd tier playoff. I just don’t see the creation of a new FBS league as remotely viable in this situation. It will be a small and select few, if anyone, and if you believe Herder, UM/MSU/SDSU aren’t interested

[TAILG8R]

Assuming ML knows more than us mere peons, the number he threw out there for the 'premier league' was 40 teams, which would seem to suggest 20/20 SEC/B1G

IF this is real, that leaves many teams still left in FBS, vying for CFP spot and (hypothetically) 2nd tier playoff. I just don’t see the creation of a new FBS league as remotely viable in this situation. It will be a small and select few, if anyone, and if you believe Herder, UM/MSU/SDSU aren’t interested

I can't imagine NDSU ever seriously considering adding teh hockies but if that day were to come at the expense of being in the appropriate level of football combined with the lack of support for basketball(both men's and women's) I would easily be able to find a lot of other activities to spend my time and resources on outside of NDSU athletics.

[ByeSonBusiness]

I can't imagine NDSU ever seriously considering adding teh hockies but if that day were to come at the expense of being in the appropriate level of football combined with the lack of support for basketball(both men's and women's) I would easily be able to find a lot of other activities to spend my time and resources on outside of NDSU athletics.

It'd probs make money tbh

[HerdBot]

What a waste of money lol. No one cares about it, it will hurt the brand as we won’t be competitive, and the last thing we need is another Olympic sport that we half-ass.

There are 0 people who are asking that we add hockey. Let the average Joe be a NDSU football/UND hockey fan. That school can waste their time and money on a sport that no one cares about. We start hockey I’m never giving another dollar to NDSU athletics at least until dumbass Larsen is gone. If he’s looking for something to do, start campaigning to get NDSU to get NDSU athletics equivalent state/institutional funding to put us amongst our peers. We’re about $10-$15M short in that perspective and if we had that we would’ve been Mountain West long ago.

The tone deafness of hearing people complaining about the lack of FBS and then giving them hockey instead would be 100% on-brand tho.

Nobody cares about hockey while a team of kids that haven't enrolled in college yet (Fargo Force) outdraw Bison Basketball 4 to 1. Yeah I have to respectively disagree with that statement :rofl:

Fargo is a hockey town, hosts squirt international, has some of the highest participation rates in the country and has elite level facilities for youth hockey

We have no chance to ever be competitive in basketball again nor does anyone in the summit league. The region is flush with talent. Hockey would be successful within 5 years

We would pack Scheels Arena day 1 until we can build our own arena and it wouldn't take away from football. Different audience that is untapped. If we start hockey I bet wr could even get public support for a new duel purpose hockey/basketball arena. Maybe even attached to the Fargodome

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

No to hockey. ND is already spread too thin as a state in this new D1 era, and susie has to compete with the B1G now, plus the portal. Not going super great in case you haven’t been paying attention (which would be ironic since you’re pushing D1 Bison hockey)

Like 92 says, use the money to elevate men’s BB and try to climb. I think you underestimate the loyalty of the state to the UND hockey brand, and there is no external value in trying to create a 2nd whole new brand to compete with it internally (although admittedly, it is a better brand)

It would be an epic fail by the state, the NDUS, and NDSU for Bison FB to not be at the 2nd level if there’s a split, so no reason to go there now. Let's see what happens

[BisonJD]

The solution is out there. With the MWC still stiff arming the PAC-2 for a PAC-12 revival...Oregon St. and Wash St. should start the next G5 Conference.
Invite:
Montana
Montana St.
SDSU
NDSU
Wyoming (buyout)
Boise St. (buyout)
UND
USD

Gives you solid state-sponsored schools with a full slate of athletics. Conference would be immediately competitive with other G5 conference for football and hoops bids. Decent travel (considering other conference footprints). Solid war chest from PAC-12 conference.

[NI4NI]

The solution is out there. With the MWC still stiff arming the PAC-2 for a PAC-12 revival...Oregon St. and Wash St. should start the next G5 Conference.
Invite:
Montana
Montana St.
SDSU
NDSU
Wyoming (buyout)
Boise St. (buyout)
UND
USD

Gives you solid state-sponsored schools with a full slate of athletics. Conference would be immediately competitive with other G5 conference for football and hoops bids. Decent travel (considering other conference footprints). Solid war chest from PAC-12 conference.

Love the idea of being in a real conference for all sports!
What would be NDSU buyout expenses to exit MVFC, Summit & Big 12?

[taper]

The solution is out there. With the MWC still stiff arming the PAC-2 for a PAC-12 revival...Oregon St. and Wash St. should start the next G5 Conference.
Invite:
Montana
Montana St.
SDSU
NDSU
Wyoming (buyout)
Boise St. (buyout)
UND
USD

Gives you solid state-sponsored schools with a full slate of athletics. Conference would be immediately competitive with other G5 conference for football and hoops bids. Decent travel (considering other conference footprints). Solid war chest from PAC-12 conference.

WSU and OSU are staying independent rather than admit they've fallen to the G5 ranks. There's no way they're going to start slumming(in their eyes) with a bunch of FCS call ups.
There's no PAC-12 warchest either. They're nearly broke with some big expenses coming.

[The_Sicatoka]

Frankly, do WasSU and OrSU look more like:

- USC and UCLA, or
- ColoSt and Nevada

The PAC12 dissolution exposed what WasSU and OrSU really are: G5s.

[BisonJD]

WSU and OSU are staying independent rather than admit they've fallen to the G5 ranks. There's no way they're going to start slumming(in their eyes) with a bunch of FCS call ups.
There's no PAC-12 warchest either. They're nearly broke with some big expenses coming.

Agree with you that they would see this as a "step down"...unfortunately. I don't see a path forward for them unless they submit to the MWC entirely. This would give them autonomy and (I would assume, some measure of control). At some point, common sense needs to re-enter the conversation.

[The_Sicatoka]

At some point, common sense needs to re-enter the conversation.

In college sports? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wait. You're serious?

Money has made common sense no longer a viable option.

[Professorbum]

Yep, for most FBS conferences its all about markets and location. We've never been on CUSA's shortlist. They will add Tarleton and SFA before looking our way.

MWC is really a much better fit for us, and it sounds like there have been some active discussions. Just need the dominos to fall in a way that creates an opening.

When CUSA was scrambling for members, everyone was on their shortlist. We absolutely could have waltzed in and somewhat dictated terms. But we were too good for CUSA. So the lifeboats filled up while we had a drink in Titanic's lounge.

[THEsocalledfan]

When CUSA was scrambling for members, everyone was on their shortlist. We absolutely could have waltzed in and somewhat dictated terms. But we were too good for CUSA. So the lifeboats filled up while we had a drink in Titanic's lounge.

Do we really know that? I would like to think that is true, but NDSU was way out of their footprint....

[Professorbum]

Do we really know that? I would like to think that is true, but NDSU was way out of their footprint....

When they were scrambling for survival, their footprint became the continental United States. We've always had a geography problem. That was the one instance in which our potential membership plus our geography was less problematic for a conference than no membership at all.

[taper]

When they were scrambling for survival, their footprint became the continental United States. We've always had a geography problem. That was the one instance in which our potential membership plus our geography was less problematic for a conference than no membership at all.
So in other words, it must be true because you want it to be true, despite our AD(who is subject to open records laws) repeatedly saying otherwise.

[Professorbum]

So in other words, it must be true because you want it to be true, despite our AD(who is subject to open records laws) repeatedly saying otherwise.

Think what you want if it comforts you in being on the wrong side of the FBS issue. Open records laws don't govern hedging or equivocating to journalists. Anyone can read the old news stories and posts. Pretty clear we rebuffed CUSA. In fact, I remember ML on 1660 saying that CUSA was not a good fit for NDSU. You're certainly not going to get a formal invite when that's your message. At a minimum, back channel queries were made as to NDSU's potential interest and we indicated we weren't interested. The administration has forever been wedded to wait-and-see. NDSU...the team that beat #13 Iowa in their house and has had the most dominant FCS program in history...has sat with its thumb up its ass while the FBS world has evolved without them. We've done NOTHING. We've signaled almost NOTHING, and even then only recently. NDSU should be embarrassed. We held out for the supermodel. We remain single while Missouri State is getting married to a decent, librarian-cute gal with a future.

[BigHorns]

So in other words, it must be true because you want it to be true, despite our AD(who is subject to open records laws) repeatedly saying otherwise.

Exactly, we were never on the shortlist, which has been somewhat leaked various places. Missouri St has been floating out there for a few months for people that know where to look. They had conversations with SBC as well.

Sure, CUSA may have put out feelers to see what FCS teams were in play, but their objectives are to build a Southeast regional conference somewhat mirroring the SBC. They will continue to add within and adjacent to that footprint.

ML is exactly right on what’s coming down the pike as well. G5 will have an official top 25 soon, and they are working on creating a separate playoff.

[NDSUguy]

Exactly, we were never on the shortlist, which has been somewhat leaked various places. Missouri St has been floating out there for a few months for people that know where to look. They had conversations with SBC as well.

Sure, CUSA may have put out feelers to see what FCS teams were in play, but their objectives are to build a Southeast regional conference somewhat mirroring the SBC. They will continue to add within and adjacent to that footprint.

ML is exactly right on what’s coming down the pike as well. G5 will have an official top 25 soon, and they are working on creating a separate playoff.

I love all the speculation that if/when something happens that the G5 will just allow more conferences/schools to join. The talk of the G5 and the "top" FCS joining together is speculative and hopeful at best.

The reality is that the G5 doesn't have to do shit and could easily say no more conferences and limit the number of teams to join. NDSU could be on the outside looking in if/when that happens. It would be better to make a move independent to ensure FBS than wait for the perfect situation to come about and be potentially locked out in the future.

[THEsocalledfan]

I love all the speculation that if/when something happens that the G5 will just allow more conferences/schools to join. The talk of the G5 and the "top" FCS joining together is speculative and hopeful at best.

The reality is that the G5 doesn't have to do shit and could easily say no more conferences and limit the number of teams to join. NDSU could be on the outside looking in if/when that happens. It would be better to make a move independent to ensure FBS than wait for the perfect situation to come about and be potentially locked out in the future.

This 100% is the conundrum and what has me personally worried. I challenged Matt Zimmer on this on Twitter, and he basically is "not concerned." I was thinking, well, you sure as hell should be, but he is a journalist and probably not wanting to ruffle feathers are SDSU.

[AKBison]

Nobody cares about hockey while a team of kids that haven't enrolled in college yet (Fargo Force) outdraw Bison Basketball 4 to 1. Yeah I have to respectively disagree with that statement :rofl:

Fargo is a hockey town, hosts squirt international, has some of the highest participation rates in the country and has elite level facilities for youth hockey

We have no chance to ever be competitive in basketball again nor does anyone in the summit league. The region is flush with talent. Hockey would be successful within 5 years

We would pack Scheels Arena day 1 until we can build our own arena and it wouldn't take away from football. Different audience that is untapped. If we start hockey I bet wr could even get public support for a new duel purpose hockey/basketball arena. Maybe even attached to the Fargodome

Hate to say it, but I am fading this way as well. If we aren't going to support and fund hoops at a mid major level, then we should at least take another look at Hockey.

[NDSUguy]

This 100% is the conundrum and what has me personally worried. I challenged Matt Zimmer on this on Twitter, and he basically is "not concerned." I was thinking, well, you sure as hell should be, but he is a journalist and probably not wanting to ruffle feathers are SDSU.

If this were to happen, I propose that we cut football funding by millions and pump it into basketball. By not finding a way to get to the 2nd tier of football, it will effectively destroy the sport at NDSU.

[Professor Chaos]

I love all the speculation that if/when something happens that the G5 will just allow more conferences/schools to join. The talk of the G5 and the "top" FCS joining together is speculative and hopeful at best.

The reality is that the G5 doesn't have to do shit and could easily say no more conferences and limit the number of teams to join. NDSU could be on the outside looking in if/when that happens. It would be better to make a move independent to ensure FBS than wait for the perfect situation to come about and be potentially locked out in the future.
It doesn't have to be a perfect situation to move FBS but it has to be something less than an awful situation to make it worthwhile IMO. Moving all sports to CUSA would be a terrible decision for the athletic department as a whole. Sending baseball, softball, volleyball, etc from New Mexico to Florida to Delaware and many places in between for conference games is not going to work. What's good for the football program isn't necessarily good for the entire athletic department. CUSA, even with Missouri St (now the closest CUSA school to NDSU at 770 miles away), is still not a good option for any sport other than football and a football only invite isn't happening.

[taper]

I love all the speculation that if/when something happens that the G5 will just allow more conferences/schools to join. The talk of the G5 and the "top" FCS joining together is speculative and hopeful at best.

The reality is that the G5 doesn't have to do shit and could easily say no more conferences and limit the number of teams to join. NDSU could be on the outside looking in if/when that happens. It would be better to make a move independent to ensure FBS than wait for the perfect situation to come about and be potentially locked out in the future.
No, they can't. That's a rock solid anti-trust violation and isn't a barrier at all. A lot of people are saying we need to move now or be locked out forever. I don't believe that for a second. That's *literally* illegal.
Remember that the NCAA says you can't join FBS without an invite, but Liberty did it anyway. NCAA denied the UAC's request to be a football conference, but they did it anyway and were given an AQ. NCAA says you have to sponsor basketball to be a conference, but the PAC-12 isn't and is still collecting NCAAT credits.(grace period doesn't apply to this unlike number of members, before anyone says something)
There's a difference between patience and stagnation. It's very clear that in the next 2-5 years there's going to be a major shakeup when the courts mandate pay for play. I suspect several dozen low end programs will drop football, maybe out of D1 completely. That'll force massive realignment. The Dakotas, Montanas, Idaho will be on the right side of that, much of their existing conferences won't. There's some ambitious up and comers in the WAC too. I'm willing to wait a few years to see if that happens vs burning bridges to join a crappy southern conference immediately.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

If the state is hanging its FBS hopes on a potential lawsuit, then we are in serious trouble indeed

But hey, the 1660 guys don't seem too worried so why should I be? ... and they keep bringing up just 4 schools - NDSU, SDSU, UM, MSU

We'll see what happens, but there is tremendous pressure not to blow this, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they won't

[tjbison]

It doesn't have to be a perfect situation to move FBS but it has to be something less than an awful situation to make it worthwhile IMO. Moving all sports to CUSA would be a terrible decision for the athletic department as a whole. Sending baseball, softball, volleyball, etc from New Mexico to Florida to Delaware and many places in between for conference games is not going to work. What's good for the football program isn't necessarily good for the entire athletic department. CUSA, even with Missouri St (now the closest CUSA school to NDSU at 770 miles away), is still not a good option for any sport other than football and a football only invite isn't happening.

Laramie WY is 800 miles away and way more remote than anything in CUSA, but me personally would rather be in the MWC, than go to the east coast.

[tjbison]

If the state is hanging its FBS hopes on a potential lawsuit, then we are in serious trouble indeed

But hey, the 1660 guys don't seem too worried so why should I be? ... and they keep bringing up just 4 schools - NDSU, SDSU, UM, MSU

We'll see what happens, but there is tremendous pressure not to blow this, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they won't

those 4 are the only schools left in FCS that really support the programs also which is sad. Idaho maybe....but once big slob leaves anything can happen.

[HerdBot]

It doesn't have to be a perfect situation to move FBS but it has to be something less than an awful situation to make it worthwhile IMO. Moving all sports to CUSA would be a terrible decision for the athletic department as a whole. Sending baseball, softball, volleyball, etc from New Mexico to Florida to Delaware and many places in between for conference games is not going to work. What's good for the football program isn't necessarily good for the entire athletic department. CUSA, even with Missouri St (now the closest CUSA school to NDSU at 770 miles away), is still not a good option for any sport other than football and a football only invite isn't happening.

Agree. The Great West was far from perfect but look how thst worked out for us. In retrospect, the Great West teams weren't even that good. Northern Colorado, Davis and Poly are very meh.

But without those games we dont get epic games like Sam Houston in the Fargodome

[BISONBRI53]

If the state is hanging its FBS hopes on a potential lawsuit, then we are in serious trouble indeed

But hey, the 1660 guys don't seem too worried so why should I be? ... and they keep bringing up just 4 schools - NDSU, SDSU, UM, MSU

We'll see what happens, but there is tremendous pressure not to blow this, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they won't

RIGHT!!! Those 2 know their shit!!! PURP

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

RIGHT!!! Those 2 know their shit!!! PURP

Well, they're certainly closer to the truth than you are
lol

[BISONBRI53]

Well, they're certainly closer to the truth than you are
lol

Are they? Is Andy really going to be told or have inside info on us moving up? He is an Insider I guess....

[BigHorns]

No, they can't. That's a rock solid anti-trust violation and isn't a barrier at all. A lot of people are saying we need to move now or be locked out forever. I don't believe that for a second. That's *literally* illegal.
Remember that the NCAA says you can't join FBS without an invite, but Liberty did it anyway. NCAA denied the UAC's request to be a football conference, but they did it anyway and were given an AQ. NCAA says you have to sponsor basketball to be a conference, but the PAC-12 isn't and is still collecting NCAAT credits.(grace period doesn't apply to this unlike number of members, before anyone says something)
There's a difference between patience and stagnation. It's very clear that in the next 2-5 years there's going to be a major shakeup when the courts mandate pay for play. I suspect several dozen low end programs will drop football, maybe out of D1 completely. That'll force massive realignment. The Dakotas, Montanas, Idaho will be on the right side of that, much of their existing conferences won't. There's some ambitious up and comers in the WAC too. I'm willing to wait a few years to see if that happens vs burning bridges to join a crappy southern conference immediately.

Liberty was a very unique case.

They applied for a waiver, after going to major media publications threatening a lawsuit on religious discrimination grounds. The backstory is that a few FBS conferences with openings directly told them they wouldn't be considered due to their religion/politics. If they had evidence of that, it was a pretty strong hand to play. The NCAA granted them a waiver, and it is the only FBS waiver I can ever remember being granted in the past 20 or so years.

JMU applied for a FBS postseason/playoff waiver last year and was denied. They slipped into a bowl game due to lack of enough eligible teams, but were not considered for the CFP or NY6. They threatened a lawsuit, then backed down. They were officially ineligible due to transition rules, and did not win their appeal.

All of this to say a legal challenge is a crapshoot at best. It might work, but there really isn't a strong precedent to our situation, or to anyone trying to form a new FBS conference without following the established rules.

And, winning against the NCAA wouldn't be enough. The CFP, which is what really matters, is a separate corporation formed directly between the conferences and media companies. It's why basically all FBS teams have now joined a conference. Trying to force your way into the CFP agreement would be a second battle, and likely even tougher than being declared FBS by NCAA. Notre Dame is the ONLY independent team that contractually has access to the CFP, and they are an ACC affiliate.

[HerdBot]

If the state is hanging its FBS hopes on a potential lawsuit, then we are in serious trouble indeed

But hey, the 1660 guys don't seem too worried so why should I be? ... and they keep bringing up just 4 schools - NDSU, SDSU, UM, MSU

We'll see what happens, but there is tremendous pressure not to blow this, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they won't

Yep. Unless we're Power 5, the rest is irrelevant. No interest in playing in a beefed up MVFC at the G5 level. It will still have teams like Murray State, Indiana State, South Dakota and teams with turrible stadiums and fan bases.

[taper]

Liberty was a very unique case.

They applied for a waiver, after going to major media publications threatening a lawsuit on religious discrimination grounds. The backstory is that a few FBS conferences with openings directly told them they wouldn't be considered due to their religion/politics. If they had evidence of that, it was a pretty strong hand to play. The NCAA granted them a waiver, and it is the only FBS waiver I can ever remember being granted in the past 20 or so years.

JMU applied for a FBS postseason/playoff waiver last year and was denied. They slipped into a bowl game due to lack of enough eligible teams, but were not considered for the CFP or NY6. They threatened a lawsuit, then backed down. They were officially ineligible due to transition rules, and did not win their appeal.

All of this to say a legal challenge is a crapshoot at best. It might work, but there really isn't a strong precedent to our situation, or to anyone trying to form a new FBS conference without following the established rules.

And, winning against the NCAA wouldn't be enough. The CFP, which is what really matters, is a separate corporation formed directly between the conferences and media companies. It's why basically all FBS teams have now joined a conference. Trying to force your way into the CFP agreement would be a second battle, and likely even tougher than being declared FBS by NCAA. Notre Dame is the ONLY independent team that contractually has access to the CFP, and they are an ACC affiliate.
And yet, every school you mentioned got what they wanted despite NCAA bylaws. There absolutely is no deadline that we'll be locked out forever. A new conference isn't simple, but we've done it before. Since it's clear a G5 invite isn't coming this is very likely our only path to FBS. Are you pro FBS unless it's difficult?

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

And yet, every school you mentioned got what they wanted despite NCAA bylaws. There absolutely is no deadline that we'll be locked out forever. A new conference isn't simple, but we've done it before. Since it's clear a G5 invite isn't coming this is very likely our only path to FBS. Are you pro FBS unless it's difficult?

Again, on 1660 today they fielded this very question - 'why can't we just make a new conference?'

It was soundly and immediately dismissed as impossible, so it doesn't sound like NDSU sees this as a viable option, at the same time that they seem confident we'll move up. Go figure ...

[NI4NI]

Is there a path through pairing with SDSU and leveraging our mutual successful histories?
13 championship game appearances in the past 13 seasons. (11 championships)
I cannot understand why a conference would not want us? Sure it's threat to the conference bottom feeders, but winners in life don't view things in that way.
This should be an easy sell. I don't get it.

[Professor Chaos]

Is there a path through pairing with SDSU and leveraging our mutual successful histories?
13 championship game appearances in the past 13 seasons. (11 championships)
I cannot understand why a conference would not want us? Sure it's threat to the conference bottom feeders, but winners in life don't view things in that way.
This should be an easy sell. I don't get it.
Because the quality of the football program doesn't matter at least not as much as other things. Missouri St has a shit football program but they're a better fit for CUSA not only due to fitting more into the conference's geographic footprint but they have a lot more people in the general area to help drive up media contracts and give CUSA schools visibility to more prospective students and athletes in that area.

Get ready because the next school that'll make the FBS jump before NDSU could very well be Tarleton St who wasn't even D1 until a few years ago but they'll again be a better fit with CUSA than NDSU for the same reasons Missouri St is.

[BigHorns]

And yet, every school you mentioned got what they wanted despite NCAA bylaws. There absolutely is no deadline that we'll be locked out forever. A new conference isn't simple, but we've done it before. Since it's clear a G5 invite isn't coming this is very likely our only path to FBS. Are you pro FBS unless it's difficult?

I'm just saying the best path in is to join MWC or MAC. We should be lobbying the hell out of them, and it does sound like those conversations have been happening.

If someday the doors actually lock, then sure, try whatever we have the funds and support to do. Threatening a lawsuit is easy, but wins you no friends. Actually winning a lawsuit is difficult and expensive. Your statement they all got what they wanted is a bit of a stretch. Liberty was stuck in independent status a very long time, and was losing millions upon millions of dollars buying home games until they finally got a conference invite. JMU didn't get considered for the NY6, and by a lot of metrics should have been in. And nobody else in recent history has been able to join FBS outside a conference invite. It's a last resort path, and not one that has any level of certainty.

[BigHorns]

Again, on 1660 today they fielded this very question - 'why can't we just make a new conference?'

It was soundly and immediately dismissed as impossible, so it doesn't sound like NDSU sees this as a viable option, at the same time that they seem confident we'll move up. Go figure ...

It's not a rational gamble until all other avenues have been fully exhausted.

There would be huge expenditures, with a low probability of success. The system is aligned against it.

[BigHorns]

Because the quality of the football program doesn't matter at least not as much as other things. Missouri St has a shit football program but they're a better fit for CUSA not only due to fitting more into the conference's geographic footprint but they have a lot more people in the general area to help drive up media contracts and give CUSA schools visibility to more prospective students and athletes in that area.

Get ready because the next school that'll make the FBS jump before NDSU could very well be Tarleton St who wasn't even D1 until a few years ago but they'll again be a better fit with CUSA than NDSU for the same reasons Missouri St is.

I'm not sure CUSA will add any more schools for a while. 12 is a pretty good number for a conference, and allows them to go to divisions if they choose with some cross-divisional play. That cuts down travel costs for the conference. But if CUSA does expand further, the Texas schools and other nearby regions (ASun, Southland, OVC, even CAA) will certainly get called before the Dakotas, for all the reasons you state.

One school under the radar I think could move to CUSA is NC A&T. Not this year, but potentially within the next 3-5 years.
CUSA filled in Georgia with Kennesaw, North Carolina and South Carolina schools along with Texas would be obvious next targets.

[HerdBot]

It's not a rational gamble until all other avenues have been fully exhausted.

There would be huge expenditures, with a low probability of success. The system is aligned against it.

Nothing has been exhausted. He hasnt contacted any conferences or lobbied anyone, much less put feelers out to like minded schools

ML isn't a visionary like GT and he hopes someday a lawsuit is a reason to wait. Just a retarted logic. Considering he isn't retarded and is very smart, he's just talking out of his ass and trying to pretend like there is hope

Small time mentality

[NDSUstudent]

If NDSU, Montana, Montana State, SDSU and Idaho all got together and said we want to go FBS...They would bust through barriers just like Liberty did, just call their bluff with a strong case for inclusion. It takes vision and guts to make that happen, which I sadly see very little of.

[Professor Chaos]

If NDSU, Montana, Montana State, SDSU and Idaho all got together and said we want to go FBS...They would bust through barriers just like Liberty did, just call their bluff with a strong case for inclusion. It takes vision and guts to make that happen, which I sadly see very little of.
This would be the ideal scenario for NDSU IMO. In addition to vision and guts it also takes solidarity between multiple schools which is tough to achieve and maintain through what would surely be a tumultuous process.

[taper]

I'm just saying the best path in is to join MWC or MAC. We should be lobbying the hell out of them, and it does sound like those conversations have been happening.

If someday the doors actually lock, then sure, try whatever we have the funds and support to do. Threatening a lawsuit is easy, but wins you no friends. Actually winning a lawsuit is difficult and expensive. Your statement they all got what they wanted is a bit of a stretch. Liberty was stuck in independent status a very long time, and was losing millions upon millions of dollars buying home games until they finally got a conference invite. JMU didn't get considered for the NY6, and by a lot of metrics should have been in. And nobody else in recent history has been able to join FBS outside a conference invite. It's a last resort path, and not one that has any level of certainty.

MWC is about to add WSU and OSU to get to 14. MAC just added UMass for 13. Neither of those need or want us. That's a fact, unfortunate as it is.
Liberty has made a bowl game every year they've been eligible. Not possible to say they were locked out. All the G5s lose millions and millions of dollars, but that's a different thread.
Again, no lawsuits necessary. NCAA knows they're a walking anti-trust violation and has repeatedly caved rather than risk an even worse court ruling.
My point is the risk of a lockout is zero. It simply won't happen because it's illegal. Also that none of the G5s are interested in us, so our best chance is to do what we've done in the past and make our own way. If you're pro FBS like me, this is the path you should be pushing for, because it's the only realistic one.

[bisonaudit]

Story today about a possible settlement.

[tjbison]

Is there a path through pairing with SDSU and leveraging our mutual successful histories?
13 championship game appearances in the past 13 seasons. (11 championships)
I cannot understand why a conference would not want us? Sure it's threat to the conference bottom feeders, but winners in life don't view things in that way.
This should be an easy sell. I don't get it.

Fargo has a TV market, Brookings does not. Fargo has a Commercial Airport, Brookings Does Not, Neither of them are making Fargo any more attractive it appears than Brookings and yes Fargo has a greater Value than Brookings, just not enough People it appears.

we will see but I have lost all hope on anything, going to ride off into the sunset watching the NCC 2.0 i guess, or just hanging it up all together at the prices they are charging for the crap we get to watch.. pretty sad when I can go to Boulder for $96 and pay $50 to watch GF U in in Fargo

[tjbison]

MWC is about to add WSU and OSU to get to 14. MAC just added UMass for 13. Neither of those need or want us. That's a fact, unfortunate as it is.
Liberty has made a bowl game every year they've been eligible. Not possible to say they were locked out. All the G5s lose millions and millions of dollars, but that's a different thread.
Again, no lawsuits necessary. NCAA knows they're a walking anti-trust violation and has repeatedly caved rather than risk an even worse court ruling.
My point is the risk of a lockout is zero. It simply won't happen because it's illegal. Also that none of the G5s are interested in us, so our best chance is to do what we've done in the past and make our own way. If you're pro FBS like me, this is the path you should be pushing for, because it's the only realistic one.

I dont see a Future of the MWC as it sits.

Boise
WAzzu
Oregon St
Nevada
SDSU
SJSU
CO St
UNLV
AIR FORCE
UTAH ST
FResno ST

would probably not be too scared to shit away Wyo, NM and Hawaii to get OSU and WAZZU, pretty much re-brand the PAC

[56BISON73]

Story today about a possible settlement.

Well that was certainly informative.

[NI4NI]

Fargo has a TV market, Brookings does not. Fargo has a Commercial Airport, Brookings Does Not, Neither of them are making Fargo any more attractive it appears than Brookings and yes Fargo has a greater Value than Brookings, just not enough People it appears.

we will see but I have lost all hope on anything, going to ride off into the sunset watching the NCC 2.0 i guess, or just hanging it up all together at the prices they are charging for the crap we get to watch.. pretty sad when I can go to Boulder for $96 and pay $50 to watch GF U in in Fargo

SDSU's TV market isn't Brookings, it eastern SD as well as SW MN.
Opponents can fly into Brookings, the primary runway will handle an A320 or a 737
I imagine SDSU is more attractive than we are to prospective conferences due to their performance other sports as well.
Would be arrogant (and probably wrong) to believe we are more appealing.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

SDSU's TV market isn't Brookings, it eastern SD as well as SW MN.
Opponents can fly into Brookings, the primary runway will handle an A320 or a 737
I imagine SDSU is more attractive than we are to prospective conferences due to their performance other sports as well.
Would be arrogant (and probably wrong) to believe we are more appealing.

^ look at this clown pretending to be a Bison fan
lol

[NI4NI]

^ look at this clown pretending to be a Bison fan
lol

Just pointing out reality, sunshine.

[tjbison]

SDSU's TV market isn't Brookings, it eastern SD as well as SW MN.
Opponents can fly into Brookings, the primary runway will handle an A320 or a 737
I imagine SDSU is more attractive than we are to prospective conferences due to their performance other sports as well.
Would be arrogant (and probably wrong) to believe we are more appealing.

lol..ok

if you think anyone is looking at Fucking Brooking SD over Fargo for ease of travel and Eyeballs on TV you are totally ignorant or delusional

i can't even imagine you believe a word you said

[tjbison]

Just pointing out reality, sunshine.

but ....its not there sunshine

[NI4NI]

lol..ok

if you think anyone is looking at Fucking Brooking SD over Fargo for ease of travel and Eyeballs on TV you are totally ignorant or delusional

i can't even imagine you believe a word you said

That's not at all what I said, and you know that. The point was/is that SDSU is just as appealing to a prospecting conference as we are, and it would be foolish to not leverage that when brokering a deal.

[THEsocalledfan]

SDSU's TV market isn't Brookings, it eastern SD as well as SW MN.
Opponents can fly into Brookings, the primary runway will handle an A320 or a 737
I imagine SDSU is more attractive than we are to prospective conferences due to their performance other sports as well.
Would be arrogant (and probably wrong) to believe we are more appealing.

I have no idea if that is true about the runway, but the bigger issue is the chartered flights used by football teams have all the same security, etc. EVERY team that has to fly to play SDSU comes in and out of Sioux Falls, including SDSU.

[The_Sicatoka]

Most anything can be overcome save for geography.

[NI4NI]

I thought the same thing until looking into it. I was surprised that their website listed Oklahoma State as a 2023 visitor?
But even so, I would assume that FSD would still be the predominant choice.

https://cityofbrookings-sd.gov/223/Airport

[BisonJD]

This 100% is the conundrum and what has me personally worried. I challenged Matt Zimmer on this on Twitter, and he basically is "not concerned." I was thinking, well, you sure as hell should be, but he is a journalist and probably not wanting to ruffle feathers are SDSU.

Matt Zimmer is a journalist in the loosest of terms. SDSU Fanboy or Twitter Troll is more appropriate for he and his boy Zach "Ice" Borg. SD media is absolutely laughable.

[BigHorns]

MWC is about to add WSU and OSU to get to 14. MAC just added UMass for 13. Neither of those need or want us. That's a fact, unfortunate as it is.

This is where we disagree.

MAC likely will go to 14. WKU was rumored for that spot, but recent CUSA news that came along with the Missouri St add is that WKU will not be moving anytime soon. So MAC is in the hunt for at least one more.

MWC is not stable. There are still rumblings that PAC2 are going to take some of the MWC teams and reform the PAC. That could take some time though.

Believe ‘92 said here there have been confirmed discussions with MWC, and that we were pretty close/towards the top of the list for an invite.

If ML and company think the MWC door is about to open as the G5 separates from P4, then perhaps that is where they’ve placed their bets. If MWC is not an option, then we should be pushing hard to be #14 in the MAC.

[THEsocalledfan]

Matt Zimmer is a journalist in the loosest of terms. SDSU Fanboy or Twitter Troll is more appropriate for he and his boy Zach "Ice" Borg. SD media is absolutely laughable.

Really strange when he is now working for the Forum; you'd think he'd see the writing on the wall. I suppose they will figure it out eventually when the FCS train crashes into the station.

[HerdBot]

SDSU's TV market isn't Brookings, it eastern SD as well as SW MN.
Opponents can fly into Brookings, the primary runway will handle an A320 or a 737
I imagine SDSU is more attractive than we are to prospective conferences due to their performance other sports as well.
Would be arrogant (and probably wrong) to believe we are more appealing.

Yeah you clearly don't understand TV markets. Brookings Airport is the size of Jamestown. Fargo is getting a 200 million dollar upgrade and was ten times better before that. Claiming Sioux Falls as Brookings is like Grand Forks or Jamestown claiming Fargo

[TransAmBison]

Yeah you clearly don't understand Quite a thread could be started with just this heading...

[The_Sicatoka]

Big rosters cost big bucks.
Solution?

https://twitter.com/RossDellenger/status/1788617836597752149

[scottietohottie]

Yeah you clearly don't understand TV markets. Brookings Airport is the size of Jamestown. Fargo is getting a 200 million dollar upgrade and was ten times better before that. Claiming Sioux Falls as Brookings is like Grand Forks or Jamestown claiming Fargo

You know those ratings are flawed. They don't take in account households with more then 2 tv sets and other things of that nature.

[HerdBot]

Big rosters cost big bucks.
Solution?

https://twitter.com/RossDellenger/status/1788617836597752149

That would benefit lower levels of football for sure but getting through season would be difficult. You need pratice squad players

[GreenfieldBison]

Quite a thread could be started with just this heading...
and when you do what will be that ever important initial post?


must spread rep btw.

[NI4NI]

Yeah you clearly don't understand TV markets. Brookings Airport is the size of Jamestown. Fargo is getting a 200 million dollar upgrade and was ten times better before that. Claiming Sioux Falls as Brookings is like Grand Forks or Jamestown claiming Fargo

You seem to believe that SDSU will never be FBS simply because Brookings is a smaller city. I on the other hand believe that when an invite is extended to NDSU it will also be extended to SDSU. I could be wrong, time will tell.

[ByeSonBusiness]

Yeah you clearly don't understand TV markets. Brookings Airport is the size of Jamestown. Fargo is getting a 200 million dollar upgrade and was ten times better before that. Claiming Sioux Falls as Brookings is like Grand Forks or Jamestown claiming Fargo

NDSU's market is North Dakota and a chunk of Minnesota, I think? What is SDSU's? Presumably something similar?

[IndyBison]

NDSU's market is North Dakota and a chunk of Minnesota, I think? What is SDSU's? Presumably something similar?Agreed. IU's market isn't Bloomington and Purdue's market isn't Lafayette. Both are Indiana plus a good reach regionally in Chicago and other cities. The Dakota schools at definitely statewide plus western Minnesota.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[taper]

NDSU's media deal is $2M/yr. SDSU is $1.3M but that ends in 2026 and with their recent success I expect their new contract to be pretty close to ours. SDSU is certainly no slouch in the market.

[HerdBot]

NDSU's media deal is $2M/yr. SDSU is $1.3M but that ends in 2026 and with their recent success I expect their new contract to be pretty close to ours. SDSU is certainly no slouch in the market.

NDSU is statewide coverage. Everyone gets it. Midco is a dying Network that is laying off employees and cutting programming because nobody has cable and they need a subscription to stream. I would be surprised if SDSU renews with them

[THEsocalledfan]

NDSU is statewide coverage. Everyone gets it. Midco is a dying Network that is laying off employees and cutting programming because nobody has cable and they need a subscription to stream. I would be surprised if SDSU renews with them

The question is would a Sioux Falls station step up. As long as Midco continues to offer something, I'm doubtful they are going anywhere. Only possibilities would be KELO or KSFY if they would step up. If they could get KELO, it would be huge and quick state wide tv coverage.

[BigHorns]

You seem to believe that SDSU will never be FBS simply because Brookings is a smaller city. I on the other hand believe that when an invite is extended to NDSU it will also be extended to SDSU. I could be wrong, time will tell.

I tend to agree.

A reasonable scenario is something like NDSU/SDSU/UM/MSU going to MWC as a package deal.

However, if the destination was MAC instead, it could be only one school taking the #14 slot. I don't think they are looking to add more than one school right now.

[tjbison]

NDSU's market is North Dakota and a chunk of Minnesota, I think? What is SDSU's? Presumably something similar?

yep, same but NDSU is in a small METRO not a 50mile away satellite town.

not at all saying they couldn't join, but for anyone to think Brookings is more attractive is just absurd

[HerdBot]

You seem to believe that SDSU will never be FBS simply because Brookings is a smaller city. I on the other hand believe that when an invite is extended to NDSU it will also be extended to SDSU. I could be wrong, time will tell.

I agree with that.

But you implied Brookings is more attractive than Fargo to conferences, which is where most people laughably disagree

Honestly the argument that Fargo (or Brookings) is in the middle of nowhere is stupid. We're both the biggest team in our respective states and fan bases extend to Minneapolis. There is a reason NDSU has a radio affiliate in Minneapolis. There is a reason the Bison drew 22,546 fans vs a mediocre Eastern Washington team in Minneapolis. Minnesota is a 2nd home to us. SDSU has a good sized fan base there too

Fargo population within a 100 mile radius is 697,738. 100 mile radius of Brookings is a tad bigger at 741,251 although it's an hour from Sioux Falls, the major population center and Brookings is only 23,993 and growing at a snails pace. It's actually shrunk since 2019 but the population around it is growing

[NI4NI]

I agree with that.

But you implied Brookings is more attractive than Fargo to conferences, which is where most people laughably disagree

No, I was making the point that SDSU is just as viable (being FBS) as NDSU and pursuing a 'joint effort' is worth considering.
You were actually the one making the absurd 'Little Brookings vs Huge Fargo' point.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

SDSU doesn’t want to move up anyway, it appears

https://twitter.com/IceBorg/status/1790773043989471390

Doesn’t bother me, and I got no problem with all future marker games being in Fargo if they choose to stay behind

[unbison]

No, I was making the point that SDSU is just as viable (being FBS) as NDSU and pursuing a 'joint effort' is worth considering.
You were actually the one making the absurd 'Little Brookings vs Huge Fargo' point.

And it’s absurd,as brookings is in the Sioux Falls tv market which ranks 112
Ndsu is in Fargo the 113th television market
What they want is tv sets
which in turns equals advertising dollars and we both equally suck in this statistic

[NI4NI]

And it’s absurd,as brookings is in the Sioux Falls tv market which ranks 112
Ndsu is in Fargo the 113th television market
What they want is tv sets
which in turns equals advertising dollars and we both equally suck in this statistic

For sure. The appeal of either school has nothing to do with the TV market they bring, we can agree that both schools would already be FBS if they were in larger markets. Their asset is in the competitiveness they offer, that's the only card they have to play. The potential of making the product of a given conference more appealing. People do want to watch good games and we both bring that to the table.
At least that's how I see it.

[BigHorns]

SDSU doesn’t want to move up anyway, it appears

https://twitter.com/IceBorg/status/1790773043989471390

Doesn’t bother me, and I got no problem with all future marker games being in Fargo if they choose to stay behind

The difference is SDSU is just now enjoying their first success and spotlight in FCS that NDSU has had for a decade. Give it a few more years and maybe the novelty will have worn off. If we move to FBS that changes the game regionally.

[NI4NI]

The difference is SDSU is just now enjoying their first success and spotlight in FCS that NDSU has had for a decade. Give it a few more years and maybe the novelty will have worn off. If we move to FBS that changes the game regionally.

Their fans will go nuts if NDSU moves up and they don't. LOL

However, that makes future 'Dakota Marker' games kind of a 'must win'. (very embarrassing to lose)

[HerdBot]

SDSU doesn’t want to move up anyway, it appears

https://twitter.com/IceBorg/status/1790773043989471390

Doesn’t bother me, and I got no problem with all future marker games being in Fargo if they choose to stay behind

I wouldn't consider that podcast a source

[HerdBot]

And it’s absurd,as brookings is in the Sioux Falls tv market which ranks 112
Ndsu is in Fargo the 113th television market
What they want is tv sets
which in turns equals advertising dollars and we both equally suck in this statistic

Both teams are much larger than their TV market. NDSU is basically the entire state. SDSU is similar

But Brookings as a standalone town is pretty small time. It's an hour from Sioux Falls. It's like Valley City or Jamestown claiming they are the #113th market

[NDSUstudent]

SDSU clearly likes where they are at, in a similar spot that we once were in but that can change in a hurry.

[ByeSonBusiness]

yep, same but NDSU is in a small METRO not a 50mile away satellite town.

not at all saying they couldn't join, but for anyone to think Brookings is more attractive is just absurd

Clemson is a satellite the size of Jamestown. Is Fargo more attractive than Clemson? Perhaps we should call the ACC.

[HerdBot]

Clemson is a satellite the size of Jamestown. Is Fargo more attractive than Clemson? Perhaps we should call the ACC.

Clemson is part of the Greenville–Spartanburg–Anderson metro, which has 1.5 million people

[ByeSonBusiness]

Clemson is part of the Greenville–Spartanburg–Anderson metro, which has 1.5 million people

Have you been? Its not a metro lol.

[GCWaters]

Have you been? Its not a metro lol.

According to the Census Bureau it is....

[taper]

According to the Census Bureau it is....
Census Bureau also says Casselton, Kindred, and Barnesville are part of the FM metro.

[ByeSonBusiness]

According to the Census Bureau it is....
.
It is not if he is referring to 1.5 million people. It's a combined statistical area of ten(!!!) counties. Do you know what is included in the Fargo CSA? Wahpeton. A town an hour away.

[runtheoption]

.
It is not if he is referring to 1.5 million people. It's a combined statistical area of ten(!!!) counties. Do you know what is included in the Fargo CSA? Wahpeton. A town an hour away.

You win, CSA and MSA are different.

I've been stuck on I-85 at different times of the day between Greenville and Spartanburg. It's especially bad when Michelin and BMW are having a shift change. I've also been at stoplights for 3-4 cycles in Greer and Duncan on multiple occasions before getting through it. It seemed pretty damn metro to me. Greenville County has 558,000. It's a metro. Clemson is only 30 miles from Greenville.

[GCWaters]

You win, CSA and MSA are different.

I've been stuck on I-85 at different times of the day between Greenville and Spartanburg. It's especially bad when Michelin and BMW are having a shift change. I've also been at stoplights for 3-4 cycles in Greer and Duncan on multiple occasions before getting through it. It seemed pretty damn metro to me. Greenville County has 558,000. It's a metro. Clemson is only 30 miles from Greenville.

I'm confused....Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson is the CSA, but Greenville-Anderson-Greer, which includes Clemson, is in the MSA....or am I missing something?

[runtheoption]

I'm confused....Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson is the CSA, but Greenville-Anderson-Greer, which includes Clemson, is in the MSA....or am I missing something?

I have no idea if Clemson is in the MSA or the CSA. I just know it is only 30'ish miles from Greenville and Greenville County has a population of 558,000.

[GCWaters]

I have no idea if Clemson is in the MSA or the CSA. I just know it is only 30'ish miles from Greenville and Greenville County has a population of 558,000.

It should be in both....I believe the MSA's are nested within the CSA's....there are five MSA's inside the G-S-A CSA.....

[HerdBot]

I have no idea if Clemson is in the MSA or the CSA. I just know it is only 30'ish miles from Greenville and Greenville County has a population of 558,000.

It doesn't really matter I was trying to rebut the idea Clemson is a little hick town. The region is huge.

[HerdBot]

Census Bureau also says Casselton, Kindred, and Barnesville are part of the FM metro.

Wekl they are in Cass and Clay county. Difference is the 10 counties around Clemson are densely populated. FM Metro is surrounded by farmland

How many counties are in the Twin Cities metro? Hint its more than 10

[56BISON73]

It doesn't really matter I was trying to rebut the idea Clemson is a little hick town. The region is huge.

FYT Town and region are different. Just saying. :biggrin: With a population of 17k doesnt scream big.

[NI4NI]

Point is, neither NDSU or SDSU bring enough current viewership to add much television rights value.

[NI4NI]

OK.
El Chapo, you are one stupid sonofabitch.
I was one of the VERY DAMN FEW saying to allow you back on here.
And you've neg repped me twice in a week because you disagree with me? Everyone else is right...you're just a fucking tool.

And don't forget to neg rep me for this post too you dillweed.

[56BISON73]

OK.
El Chapo, you are one stupid sonofabitch.
I was one of the VERY DAMN FEW saying to allow you back on here.
And you've neg repped me twice in a week because you disagree with me? Everyone else is right...you're just a fucking tool.

And don't forget to neg rep me for this post too you dillweed.

He lives for this.

[HerdBot]

OK.
El Chapo, you are one stupid sonofabitch.
I was one of the VERY DAMN FEW saying to allow you back on here.

And you've neg repped me twice in a week because you disagree with me? Everyone else is right...you're just a fucking tool.

And don't forget to neg rep me for this post too you dillweed.

I positive repped you


Point is, neither NDSU or SDSU bring enough current viewership to add much television rights value.

Compared to who in the G5? We get better ratings than your average MAC, Conference USA or Sunbelt team right now vs FCS competition

[NI4NI]

Thanks brother.
What is the point of a forum if you can't have different opinions?

[taper]

Compared to who in the G5? We get better ratings than your average MAC, Conference USA or Sunbelt team right now vs FCS competition
Which is why we get $2M a year while MAC gets $670k, CUSA $750k, and Sunbelt an undisclosed sum greater than their previous $100k.

[HerdBot]

Rumor: Pac-12 anticipated to pursue expansion very soon

https://flywareagle.com/posts/rumor-pac-12-anticipated-pursue-expansion-very-soon

[NI4NI]

Rumor: Pac-12 anticipated to pursue expansion very soon

https://flywareagle.com/posts/rumor-pac-12-anticipated-pursue-expansion-very-soon

What do you think this means for MWC?

[The_Sicatoka]

What do you think this means for MWC?

The MWC has those pesky (predatory?) buy-outs.

Same link has WasSU and OrSU heading to the BXII.

They're all guessing.

[taper]

Rumor: Pac-12 anticipated to pursue expansion very soon

https://flywareagle.com/posts/rumor-pac-12-anticipated-pursue-expansion-very-soon

lol, they've been pursing expansion ever since USC and UCLA left. How'd that go for them?

[HerdBot]

lol, they've been pursing expansion ever since USC and UCLA left. How'd that go for them?

Not good with high buyouts in the Mountain West, but the buyouts get smaller with advance notice

I think it's a long shot but if the top FCS schools like Montana, Montana State, NDSU and SDSU want to launch the FBS era under the Pac 12 banner, that's tough to say no to

[Grizzled]

Not good with high buyouts in the Mountain West, but the buyouts get smaller with advance notice

I think it's a long shot but if the top FCS schools like Montana, Montana State, NDSU and SDSU want to launch the FBS era under the Pac 12 banner, that's tough to say no to

lol……lol…..lol

[NDSUstudent]

Not good with high buyouts in the Mountain West, but the buyouts get smaller with advance notice

I think it's a long shot but if the top FCS schools like Montana, Montana State, NDSU and SDSU want to launch the FBS era under the Pac 12 banner, that's tough to say no to

More like the PAC 12 raids the AAC and MWC and then we team up with the scraps that are left. Which at this point seems like our only real path forward.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

The total NDUS D1 athletic budget is around $60M, which fits right in with SDSU, UNLV, CSU, and Boise. So, no doubt, a nonredundant NDUS D1 model would be in discussion for the PAC rebuild. Maybe that’s what he meant …

[HerdBot]

More like the PAC 12 raids the AAC and MWC and then we team up with the scraps that are left. Which at this point seems like our only real path forward.

With the 2 Montana schools and NDSU/SDSU any combination of existing AAC/MW/Pac2 teams is a solid conference

[The_Sicatoka]

The total NDUS D1 athletic budget is around $60M, which fits right in with SDSU, UNLV, CSU, and Boise. So, no doubt, a nonredundant NDUS D1 model would be in discussion for the PAC rebuild. Maybe that’s what he meant …

You had me confused a second then I re-read: NDUS ... total system, yes.

[BigHorns]

With the 2 Montana schools and NDSU/SDSU any combination of existing AAC/MW/Pac2 teams is a solid conference

NDSUStudent has it right. If there is an opportunity it will come as backfill for MWC after PAC takes who they want.

PAC actually has the money to do this. The PAC assets are nontrivial, and PAC-2 are only allowed to use them to rebuild.

[taper]

NDSUStudent has it right. If there is an opportunity it will come as backfill for MWC after PAC takes who they want.

PAC actually has the money to do this. The PAC assets are nontrivial, and PAC-2 are only allowed to use them to rebuild.

I'm curious what assets you think the PAC has. They lost almost everything in the breakup.

[The_Sicatoka]

2PAC
Need 7 to be an FBS conference; 8 for scheduling

Get six from MWC
MWC buyout is $17M with two year notice; $34M with one year notice

6 * $17M = $102M <-- after revenue split, and paying off the misbilling of the PAC12 network deal, the 2PAC has that to hand over to the MWC remnants?


Also, look into WasSU and OrSU athletic budgets today. They were bleeding red ink in the PAC12; this "newPAC" won't have better revenues.

[BigHorns]

I'm curious what assets you think the PAC has. They lost almost everything in the breakup.

Not what I saw.

Believe they won:
- control of PAC assets
- north of $120m in exit fees from departing schools
- CFP revenues, NCAA tourney shares

There were some restrictions placed on how they use the funds, believe the judgement giving them control said funds not distributed need to be used to rebuild.

This article puts the PAC 2 rebuild cash warchest at over $200m ... it just took a while for them to gain control.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/03/30/pac-12-survival-tallying-the-cash-available-to-washington-state-and-oregon-state-for-rebuilding-the-conference/

This article on final settlement sure doesn't sound like a loss for PAC-2:
- $400m in PAC assets.
- departing schools agreed to forfeit some revenue, and additionally provide guarantees against future liabilities (eg: the PAC12 network deal)

https://sports.yahoo.com/oregon-state-and-washington-state-reach-pac-12-settlement-with-departing-schools-014834788.html

How does any of this equate to "lost almost everything" ?

[taper]

Not what I saw.

Believe they won:
- control of PAC assets
- north of $120m in exit fees from departing schools
- CFP revenues, NCAA tourney shares

There were some restrictions placed on how they use the funds, believe the judge said funds not distributed need to be used to rebuild.

This article puts the PAC 2 rebuild cash warchest at over $200m ... it just took a while for them to gain control.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/03/30/pac-12-survival-tallying-the-cash-available-to-washington-state-and-oregon-state-for-rebuilding-the-conference/
Article is paywalled so I can't comment on it.
PAC assets - what does that mean? PAC Network media equipment, office furniture, laptops, etc that will sell for pennies on the dollar if liquidated?
PAC has no exit fees. $0. Anyone saying otherwise is completely wrong and has no credibility at all. The departing schools agreed to some hold backs, but that was basically to pay the Comcast debt that they owed.
CFP went to per school payouts instead of per conference. The PAC2 are sending every penny of that to the MWC to buy a schedule the next 2 years. NCAAT shares won't even remotely fund conference head office expenses, much less anything distributed to the schools.
That $200M war chest is a joke. Can't read the paywalled article, but if you post excerpts I'll be happy to explain how they're wrong. My guess is they're still counting the per conference CFP payout and the Rose Bowl, both of which have disappeared.

[HerdBot]

Not what I saw.

Believe they won:
- control of PAC assets
- north of $120m in exit fees from departing schools
- CFP revenues, NCAA tourney shares

There were some restrictions placed on how they use the funds, believe the judgement giving them control said funds not distributed need to be used to rebuild.

This article puts the PAC 2 rebuild cash warchest at over $200m ... it just took a while for them to gain control.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/03/30/pac-12-survival-tallying-the-cash-available-to-washington-state-and-oregon-state-for-rebuilding-the-conference/

This article on final settlement sure doesn't sound like a loss for PAC-2:
- $400m in PAC assets.
- departing schools agreed to forfeit some revenue, and additionally provide guarantees against future liabilities (eg: the PAC12 network deal)

https://sports.yahoo.com/oregon-state-and-washington-state-reach-pac-12-settlement-with-departing-schools-014834788.html

How does any of this equate to "lost almost everything" ?

Holy shit that's a lot of revenue. Way better than the Valley. We really need to team up with the Montana schools and SDSU because something will happen.

[The_Sicatoka]

Holy shit that's a lot of revenue. Way better than the Valley. We really need to team up with the Montana schools and SDSU because something will happen.

The xDSUs and the Montanas ain't USC, UCLA, UW, UO when it comes to revenue generation.

[The_Sicatoka]

Frank reality: Most of the MWC is in better fiscal shape than the 2PAC.

https://dailyevergreen.com/168036/sports/a-decade-of-debt-threatens-wsu-athletics/
https://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/2023/09/oregon-state-president-jayathi-murthy-says-athletics-revenue-could-fall-by-44-percent-by-2025.html

WasSU and OrSU were not "left with", they were "left behind".

[BigHorns]

Frank reality: Most of the MWC is in better fiscal shape than the 2PAC.

https://dailyevergreen.com/168036/sports/a-decade-of-debt-threatens-wsu-athletics/
https://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/2023/09/oregon-state-president-jayathi-murthy-says-athletics-revenue-could-fall-by-44-percent-by-2025.html

WasSU and OrSU were not "left with", they were "left behind".

The article while interesting, also says WSU just approved building a new $27m IPF building, and that they will get control of “hundreds of millions” in assets the PAC has. $30m is a serious shortfall, and their own athletic department may face some cutbacks. They were operating on a P5 budget though, which are much larger than what G5 programs typically have.

PAC 2 were told during the hearings they couldn’t simply pocket the PAC assets and must either distribute them or use them to rebuild. They have a large incentive to rebuild now, and funds to do it with. Rumors are floating they will announce something later this summer.

[taper]

The article while interesting, also says WSU just approved building a new $27m IPF building, and that they will get control of “hundreds of millions” in assets the PAC has. $30m is a serious shortfall, and their own athletic department may face some cutbacks. They were operating on a P5 budget though, which are much larger than what G5 programs typically have.

PAC 2 were told during the hearings they couldn’t simply pocket the PAC assets and must either distribute them or use them to rebuild. They have a large incentive to rebuild now, and funds to do it with. Rumors are floating they will announce something later this summer.
This story moved fast with a lot of questionable "journalism". Both articles above are from fall 2023. This one is March 2024 has direct on the record quotes.
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39808513/washington-state-oregon-state-settle-schools-exiting-pac-12

The departing schools will have $5 million withheld during the 2024 fiscal year for a total of $50 million under the deal announced Monday. The departing schools also will each pay a $1.5 million "supplemental contribution" to the conference that will be used by the remaining schools to navigate an uncertain future.
The $5Mx10 is basically the Comcast repayment. That was going to be withheld no matter what.
$1.5Mx10 is chump change at this level. It probably doesn't even pay the legal fees and staff buyouts.
PAC has no warchest. They're a financial basketcase.

[BigHorns]

This story moved fast with a lot of questionable "journalism". Both articles above are from fall 2023. This one is March 2024 has direct on the record quotes.
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39808513/washington-state-oregon-state-settle-schools-exiting-pac-12

The $5Mx10 is basically the Comcast repayment. That was going to be withheld no matter what.
$1.5Mx10 is chump change at this level. It probably doesn't even pay the legal fees and staff buyouts.
PAC has no warchest. They're a financial basketcase.

That's $65m forfeited by departing schools this year, effectively as departure/exit fees. The departing schools also had to provide some guarantees regarding the PAC network/Comcast deal liabilities.

In addition, PAC has other assets, and will still collect some CFP and NCAA tourney credits that are significant for at least another 3-5 years.

They are playing with something in the ballpark of at least $200-400m, and have a lot of motivation to rebuild rather than get absorbed into MWC.

[Grizzled]

That's $65m forfeited by departing schools this year, effectively as departure/exit fees. The departing schools also had to provide some guarantees regarding the PAC network/Comcast deal liabilities.

In addition, PAC has other assets, and will still collect some CFP and NCAA tourney credits that are significant for at least another 3-5 years.

They are playing with something in the ballpark of at least $200-400m, and have a lot of motivation to rebuild rather than get absorbed into MWC.

Does that cover the buyouts for schools to move from conferences that have as many (or more) tourney credits coming as the Pac12. Plus a TV contract that may be worth less. They have money but I don’t think it moves the needle as much when digging a little deeper. Could be wrong though.

[BigHorns]

Does that cover the buyouts for schools to move from conferences that have as many (or more) tourney credits coming as the Pac12. Plus a TV contract that may be worth less. They have money but I don’t think it moves the needle as much when digging a little deeper. Could be wrong though.

PAC wants to grab the best MWC schools and position themselves to be seen as the #5 FBS conference, which would give them the last CFP bid slot most years. It would become an uphill battle for any other G5 conference to get a CFP bid.

They have enough cash to assist with MWC buyouts, which might be paid back to PAC over a number of years. It will all come down to what package of schools PAC can assemble, and what the media rights deal looks like for that. I suspect they can top the MWC per school payout if they skim only the top schools/markets.

Again, rumors are flying about an announcement in next few months, so we'll know more by the time football season starts. These things always move a little slow with all the moving pieces. PAC 2 really didn't own/control their own conference until March, and there was no way for them to make any moves prior to that.

[taper]

That's $65m forfeited by departing schools this year, effectively as departure/exit fees. The departing schools also had to provide some guarantees regarding the PAC network/Comcast deal liabilities.

In addition, PAC has other assets, and will still collect some CFP and NCAA tourney credits that are significant for at least another 3-5 years.

They are playing with something in the ballpark of at least $200-400m, and have a lot of motivation to rebuild rather than get absorbed into MWC.
Why are you not getting this? PAC doesn't have exit fees and the 10 leaving schools didn't open their wallets out of the goodness of their hearts. Comcast was a known liability they knew they'd have to pay, along with several existing lawsuits like the Holiday Bowl.
$65M - already spent on Comcast, conf HQ downsizing, and legal fees.
CFP per school share is ~$7M each, which is already spent to the MWC for a FB schedule. (this drops to $360k in 2026, another disaster for them)
NCAAT credits are about $16M annually, but that's paid to the conference and they'll spend all of it on operations.
There's nothing there. How on earth are you turning the above $95M that's already spent into a $200-400M war chest?

[The_Sicatoka]

PAC doesn't have exit fees ...

Truth, and worth repeating.

Other than jointly paying the last cable bill, the 10 gave the 2PAC a no-alimony divorce.

[GCWaters]

This is an interesting take:

https://x.com/TJAltimore/status/1774403261904077057

[runtheoption]

PAC wants to grab the best MWC schools and position themselves to be seen as the #5 FBS conference, which would give them the last CFP bid slot most years. It would become an uphill battle for any other G5 conference to get a CFP bid.

They have enough cash to assist with MWC buyouts, which might be paid back to PAC over a number of years. It will all come down to what package of schools PAC can assemble, and what the media rights deal looks like for that. I suspect they can top the MWC per school payout if they skim only the top schools/markets.

Again, rumors are flying about an announcement in next few months, so we'll know more by the time football season starts. These things always move a little slow with all the moving pieces. PAC 2 really didn't own/control their own conference until March, and there was no way for them to make any moves prior to that.


Why are you not getting this? PAC doesn't have exit fees and the 10 leaving schools didn't open their wallets out of the goodness of their hearts. Comcast was a known liability they knew they'd have to pay, along with several existing lawsuits like the Holiday Bowl.
$65M - already spent on Comcast, conf HQ downsizing, and legal fees.
CFP per school share is ~$7M each, which is already spent to the MWC for a FB schedule. (this drops to $360k in 2026, another disaster for them)
NCAAT credits are about $16M annually, but that's paid to the conference and they'll spend all of it on operations.
There's nothing there. How on earth are you turning the above $95M that's already spent into a $200-400M war chest?

The 2 of you are on completely different pages with massively different numbers being stated. Where in the heck does anyone find a definitive answer?

[The_Sicatoka]

This is an interesting take:

https://x.com/TJAltimore/status/1774403261904077057

Yowzah! Good find GCW.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

The 2 of you are on completely different pages with massively different numbers being stated. Where in the heck does anyone find a definitive answer?

In the post right above yours and by reading the links

They drop down to a high G5 level ($60 M from $90+) which they will obviously feel deeply, but that has no bearing on their desire or ability to rebuild the top western 'G5' in the shape they want it. Remains to be seen if is viable. Exit fees are always negotiable and Gloria has a soft spot for the PAC

[The_Sicatoka]

In the post right above yours and by reading the links

They drop down to a high G5 level ($60 M from $90+) which they will obviously feel deeply, but that has no bearing on their desire or ability to rebuild the top western 'G5' in the shape they want it. Remains to be seen if is viable. Exit fees are always negotiable and Gloria has a soft spot for the PAC

2PAC ain't your daddy's PAC. Even $60M could be optimistic.

And I don't see the MWC front range schools (Wyo, UNM, USU) being amenable to discounted exit fees because they will be 'left behind' in that scenario and are watching the 'left behind' 2PAC's strife.

[taper]

This is an interesting take:

https://x.com/TJAltimore/status/1774403261904077057
Yeah, the various numbers aren't hard to find, can't understand how people still insist on fantasy warchests.
Even that tweet has problems though. He's still giving $100M in Rose Bowl payouts. The RB signed on as a permanent CFP game and all that money went to the increased CFP pot. Giving it to PAC is double dipping. He also has only $50M for 2 years conference operations.
https://pac-12.com/article/2024/05/23/pac-12-announces-2022-2023-financial-results

For 2022-2023, the Pac-12 Conference reported revenues of $494M and net operating expenses of $58M. Pac-12 Networks reported revenues of $110M and net operating expenses of $83M. A summary of consolidated results is set forth below.
Last fiscal year they spent $140M on operating expenses. That's going to substantially drop as they shrink, but hard to see it going to only $25M/yr. They had almost $7M just in legal fees, and that isn't going down with the rapidly evolving mess in the courts.

[The_Sicatoka]

Revenues: up
Payouts: down
Only ones happy: lawyers

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pac-12-set-high-revenue-195147943.html

[BigHorns]

This is an interesting take:

https://x.com/TJAltimore/status/1774403261904077057

That is an interesting take indeed. But, may not be the full picture.

- most people seem to be ballpark in agreement on the left side of that chart.

- the right hand side has an estimated $50m PAC operations cost (which would surely shrink if it was only two schools). Believe there have already been massive layoffs within PAC operations, and they would certainly slim down to look more like MWC in cost structure.

- the other major expenditure is assuming continued conference payouts at the prior rate while using only the minimal CW/Fox media deal the PAC 2 negotiated for themselves alone.

I do think there is a very high probability the PAC 2 have to cut their own programs and expenditures significantly, no matter what. That would be true if they play under either the PAC or MWC banner. I also believe the media revenues in that chart would be higher if they rebuild with the right schools.

All of this does put pressure on PAC2 to both make cuts and move quickly if they wish to rebuild.
From PAC 2 perspective, they have to look at 3 years from now, are they better off in a rebuilt PAC or as a member of MWC.

All of the messaging from the conference and nearby reporters/media is that they are making a full press effort to rebuild quick. Maybe that succeeds, maybe it won't. Will all depend if they can land a better television/network deal with the right set of cherry picked schools. Note it doesn't have to be as good as what PAC had previously, just better than what MWC can offer, on an average per school basis.

[The_Sicatoka]

PAC Ops costs are likely overstated but still significant.

Cutting conference payouts is directly impacting the Athletics budgets of the remaining 2PAC, nearly guaranteeing cuts.

[The_Sicatoka]

From PAC 2 perspective, they have to look at 3 years from now, are they better off in a rebuilt PAC or as a member of MWC.

Like I've mused, they'd better be on good terms with Gloria Nevarez. A rebuild is a massive price and the BXII likely isn't calling.

[bruinbison]

……

-Also keep an eye on the Pac2. Reporters in that region have said a Pac2 rebuild is more likely than a Mountain West merger if Oregon State and Washington State can’t get into the P4. If that happens, it could create a pathway to the FBS for MVFC/Big Sky powers. Or … the MWC gets poached by the Pac2, it then poaches CUSA, and CUSA grabs more southern FCS teams. But if you’re a Montana/Montana State/Idaho/Sac State/UC Davis/NDSU/SDSU fan who wants to go FBS, the cleanest path may be a Pac2 rebuild with G5 teams……




https://herosports.com/fcs-mailbag-dark-horses-realignment-settlement-bzbz/