Head injuries in football

[Wally]

I heard Barreiro talking about this and had to read it myself. You would think coaches would be more aware of these concussion situations, but I guess not.


The first day of full-contact drills during fall camp at Frostburg State in August 2011 lasted four hours, the lawsuit said. No collisions compared to those generated by the outside zone drill in which fullbacks pummeled each other. Each time, Derek was the first to go.
One fullback pretended to be a linebacker and stood defenseless. The other fullback had to hit him at full speed as hard as possible after the quarterback handed off to the running back. The make-believe linebacker couldn’t move or brace himself. He had to absorb the shot or face the wrath of Mr. Schumacher, the running backs coach.
In theory, this simulated a fullback blocking a linebacker. But players didn’t see much connection to any realistic game situation because linebackers don’t stand unmoving and defenseless.
“It was stupid,” former running back and fullback Matt Buchanan said. “That’s how everybody who was playing fullback got hurt and people that transferred over to fullback quit. They’re like, ‘Yeah, I’m not doing that.’”



Mr. Buchanan went along with The Drill. Playing time meant keeping your mouth shut at a university where the 2011 team’s policies described injury as a “rare event” and insisted “great champions can distinguish between pain and injury.” To players, the message was clear: If you’re hurt, you’re not a champion. Injured players were labeled “gripers,” the lawsuit says, and detailed to clean the field when practice ended.
“If Derek hadn’t died,” former lineman Kiven Williams writes in an email, “I’m pretty sure someone else would have died or have been severely hurt from the training staff not correctly doing their job.”


During a full-speed 7-on-7 exercise, the lawsuit says, Derek told Mr. Schumacher that he had a “headache” and “didn’t feel right.” Derek never acknowledged pain. Mr. Rogish and other coaches stood within earshot. In response, Mr. Schumacher reportedly shouted: “Stop your bitching and moaning and quit acting like a pussy and get back out there, Sheely!”
Minutes later, Derek collided with a defensive back while running a fly route.
“Just a little tap,” Mr. Buchanan says. “He got up, took his helmet off, sat down. You never sat down during practice. He started stretching and that was it. That was it. It was terrible.”



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/11/inside-the-house-on-the-corner-ken-sheely-rests-hi/?page=all#pagebreak

[tony]

Some of this is getting to the point that it sounds like the Apple Scare of 1989 or the Great Duct Tape Panic of 2001 (i.e. more hysterical overreaction than actual substance.)

The article points out a problem, but is has nothing to do with playing football - it had to do with football practice as conducted by a clueless coaching staff.

I remember two sporting deaths from my days in ND. One was a javelin injury and was a soccer head injury.

[mebisonII]

Some of this is getting to the point that it sounds like the Apple Scare of 1989 because I keep hearing stuff that plain just isn't true (like football players die younger than the general population) or that soccer is safer (there are two sporting deaths I remember from my ND days: Javelin and a soccer head injury.)

The article points out a problem, but is has nothing to do with playing football - it had to do with football practice as conducted by a guy who had no clue.

Sorry tony, but that just isn't true. You are correct that the death had to do with football practice conducted by a guy who had no clue, but in many other sports, a screw-up in coaching or training results in moderate to severe injury, but not death. You just can't completely dissociate the injury from the sport.

I'm a biomechanics person, and I find myself increasingly conflicted about the sport. I love watching it, but I find it harder and harder to ignore how brutal the game is on the body. And you can implement all the rule changes and incremental helmet improvements you want, but you can't change the physics of being run into at full speed by a 250lb person. I've got daughters, but if I had a son, I'd discourage him from playing football at a high level.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

Sorry tony, but that just isn't true. You are correct that the death had to do with football practice conducted by a guy who had no clue, but in many other sports, a screw-up in coaching or training results in moderate to severe injury, but not death. You just can't completely dissociate the injury from the sport.

I'm a biomechanics person, and I find myself increasingly conflicted about the sport. I love watching it, but I find it harder and harder to ignore how brutal the game is on the body. And you can implement all the rule changes and incremental helmet improvements you want, but you can't change the physics of being run into at full speed by a 250lb person. I've got daughters, but if I had a son, I'd discourage him from playing football at a high level.

How about boxing or MMA? What are the concussion incidents in these sports? One would think the concussion rates would be higher in these sports.

[BisonTeacher]

How about boxing or MMA? What are the concussion incidents in these sports? One would think the concussion rates would be higher in these sports.

Two words: Ali

[onbison09]

How about boxing or MMA? What are the concussion incidents in these sports? One would think the concussion rates would be higher in these sports.
MMA is WAY different than boxing. It looks more brutal but it's a lot safer (disclaimer: I'm not an expert). Fights are stopped soon after a guy gets knocked down. Boxing a guy keeps taking a pounding.

[td577]

MMA is WAY different than boxing. It looks more brutal but it's a lot safer (disclaimer: I'm not an expert). Fights are stopped soon after a guy gets knocked down. Boxing a guy keeps taking a pounding.

MMA is actually much safer than boxing. The fighters are not wearing gloves to protect their hands like boxers. The gloves they wear are to minimize lacerations. You can only hit sometime as hard as your knuckles can take. Like onbison said, fights are stopped the moment someone can't defend themselves. Boxing is all about blunt force trauma. MMA is about beating someone down, not out. Huge difference.



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[bisonmike2]

MMA is actually much safer than boxing. The fighters are not wearing gloves to protect their hands like boxers. The gloves they wear are to minimize lacerations. You can only hit sometime as hard as your knuckles can take. Like onbison said, fights are stopped the moment someone can't defend themselves. Boxing is all about blunt force trauma. MMA is about beating someone down, not out. Huge difference.



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I get that matches are safer but how many blows to the head do they take while training? You have to wonder if that has an effect. Bottom line is if you are going to play a sport at a professional level you are going to have heath consequences. If it's basketball, you are going to tear up for knees and feet. Tennis, arms and elbows. Football - almost everything. That's part of the risk that needs to be weighed against the reward. It will be interesting to see if CTE starts to slow down as we go along. The guys now showing up with CTE played in the era where the head slap was legal, padding was minimal and the artificial surfaces were little more than green colored concrete. I hope that's the case but it doesn't look likely. That NFL denial documentary had experts that were saying they have seen evidence of CTE in kids as young as 17. Now that is some scary shit and it doesn't make me want to push my kid into playing football.

[Hammersmith]

How about boxing or MMA? What are the concussion incidents in these sports? One would think the concussion rates would be higher in these sports.

The brain disease that everyone is concerned about in football(CTE - chronic traumatic encephalopathy) was originally called dementia pugilistica. Draw your own conclusion whether it involved boxers.

[Hammerhead]

Teams are hesitant to monitor impacts to the head as noted in a recent article in The Oregonian.
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/index.ssf/2013/11/canzano_a_football_invention_t.html

Not only does the watchdog monitor acceleration in the helmet, it can also be used to track every player's position, speed, and direction throughout a play.

[Hammerhead]

Didn't some players used to wear foam covers on the outside of their helmets once in a while? I seem to recall someone from the Dallas Cowboys who did that.

Why not just make helmets with a big layer of foam or nerf-type material to provide cushion which would reduce G-forces on the brain when someone's helmet gets hit?

Edit. I found one example of the outside foam layer.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671752/why-nfl-helmets-will-never-be-concussion-proof
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/07/53/61/2014298/5/628x471.jpg

[56BISON73]

Ohio State used to have a wide foam-rubber strip down the middle many years ago. But that was the days of the old suspension helmets so it couldnt have been very effective.

[LikeMothers]

There was an excellent article in The New Yorker a couple of years ago that went into football helmets. I wish I could find it. Here's what I remember.

Recent research has shown that most concussions in football result from rotary motion of the head, not straight-on or sideways linear impacts as has always been assumed. All helmets are designed to meet test standards developed in the 80's that assume linear motion. No manufacturer wants anything to do with updating the test standards (and hence their designs) to support the new research, because that would be an admission that their products are faulty. Today, they can say, "not our fault, they're certified". Somehow, that vicious circle needs to be broken so that players can have more effective helmets.

[TransAmBison]

There was an excellent article in The New Yorker a couple of years ago that went into football helmets. I wish I could find it. Here's what I remember.

Recent research has shown that most concussions in football result from rotary motion of the head, not straight-on or sideways linear impacts as has always been assumed. All helmets are designed to meet test standards developed in the 80's that assume linear motion. No manufacturer wants anything to do with updating the test standards (and hence their designs) to support the new research, because that would be an admission that their products are faulty. Today, they can say, "not our fault, they're certified". Somehow, that vicious circle needs to be broken so that players can have more effective helmets.Forgive me for paraphrasing, but I believe you're saying to go back to leather helmets.

[KSBisonFan]

Didn't some players used to wear foam covers on the outside of their helmets once in a while? I seem to recall someone from the Dallas Cowboys who did that.

Why not just make helmets with a big layer of foam or nerf-type material to provide cushion which would reduce G-forces on the brain when someone's helmet gets hit?

Edit. I found one example of the outside foam layer.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671752/why-nfl-helmets-will-never-be-concussion-proof
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/07/53/61/2014298/5/628x471.jpg

I think it was a Bills player who also wore one similar....maybe Steve Tasker?

[Trim]

I think it was a Bills player who also wore one similar....maybe Steve Tasker?

I think it was Don Beebe. Then again, my concussed head doesn't always remember things too good.

[LikeMothers]

Forgive me for paraphrasing, but I believe you're saying to go back to leather helmets.

There's something to be said for that. No purple font. I personally like watching the strategy and the plays unfold, and couldn't care less about hearing hard hits. "Better" equipment frequently just results in an arms race that gives everyone a false sense of security about injuries. Helmets just made the hits harder.

[LikeMothers]

Forgive me for paraphrasing, but I believe you're saying to go back to leather helmets.

More like, "It's a conspiracy"

http://yaykisspurr.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/7shawshank-redemption-hole-warden.png

[IzzyFlexion]

I think it was a Bills player who also wore one similar....maybe Steve Tasker?

Don Beebe.

Looked like Gazoo from the Flintstones.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mb6hU_h-MnE/SC2ycpLih_I/AAAAAAAABGE/gkUq1MSejbs/s400/Gazoo.jpg

[KSBisonFan]

I think it was Don Beebe. Then again, my concussed head doesn't always remember things too good.


Don Beebe.

Looked like Gazoo from the Flintstones.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mb6hU_h-MnE/SC2ycpLih_I/AAAAAAAABGE/gkUq1MSejbs/s400/Gazoo.jpg

Yup....at least my head injury didn't prevent me from getting the team right. :biggrin:

[56BISON73]

There was an excellent article in The New Yorker a couple of years ago that went into football helmets. I wish I could find it. Here's what I remember.

Recent research has shown that most concussions in football result from rotary motion of the head, not straight-on or sideways linear impacts as has always been assumed. All helmets are designed to meet test standards developed in the 80's that assume linear motion. No manufacturer wants anything to do with updating the test standards (and hence their designs) to support the new research, because that would be an admission that their products are faulty. Today, they can say, "not our fault, they're certified". Somehow, that vicious circle needs to be broken so that players can have more effective helmets.

I dont know how they can be more effective. Any ideas?

[KilldeerBison]

I dont know how they can be more effective. Any ideas?

Someday we'll be tailgating for a gymnastics meet. Come to think of it, I've seen some bad injuries in gymnastics.

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[LikeMothers]

I dont know how they can be more effective. Any ideas?

Somehow, the space used for foam needs to be used to make a flexible structure that will allow the outside of the helmet to rotate a bit more than the head inside does during a hit. The head will still rotate but it won't be as instantaneous. Slide the skin on the back of your hand. The skin moves while the bones stay in place. Something like that.

[Wally]

I dont know how they can be more effective. Any ideas?

I remember hearing about these. They guardian caps supposedly reduce impact by 33%


http://www.kare11.com/news/extras/article/1036554/26/Guardian-Caps-aim-to-reduce-sports-concussions

http://guardiancaps.com/

[56BISON73]

Somehow, the space used for foam needs to be used to make a flexible structure that will allow the outside of the helmet to rotate a bit more than the head inside does during a hit. The head will still rotate but it won't be as instantaneous. Slide the skin on the back of your hand. The skin moves while the bones stay in place. Something like that.

There is a flexible structure. The foam is in a plastic inclosure filled with air. There are many of these enclosures in the inside of the helmet. You put the helmet on then the enclosures are filled with an air pump so the helmet is form fitted to your head. Unless this has changed I dont know why they would go back to just foam padding.

[Gully]

I'm pretty sure Kevin Feeney wore one of these for one game back in the day. I remember it coming off for one play and he threw it to the sidelines.

[mebisonII]

You can look at it as an energy dissipation problem. When a large person hits you at a certain speed, the energy your body is absorbing is set, so all you can do is try to to dissipate that energy as must as possible, or redirect it onto structures that can absorb the energy better*. Unfortunately, its pretty hard to dissipate all that much energy in the small amounts of space you have available. The other thing is that no matter what you do to stabilize the head, your soft squishy brains*** are still free to richochet around your head all day long.


*fun fact: woodpeckers stick their lower jaw out when pecking, which takes the impact away from their cranium and instead moves it through the large, strong muscles around the back of their neck. So, football players, lead with your chin!**

**not really. please don't do that. pretend you never heard that.

***The Soft Squishy Brains would be a great band name. Or mascot. Let's go UND. Get on it.

[mebisonII]

Also, if anyone wants to geek out and read some science on the topic, here is a good place to start looking:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=football+helmet+impact

Everything there should be free full-text.

[Hammerhead]

Just make smaller spheres like these that let players stick their arms out of the side so they can catch and carry the ball.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1472819.1380650129!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/bubble-football.jpg

[Gully]

Can someone direct me to the "head injuries in soccer" thread? I've heard that is actually a bigger problem. I wonder why there aren't Outside the Lines specials focusing on the awful aspects of that terrible game?

[KSBisonFan]

Can someone direct me to the "head injuries in soccer" thread? I've heard that is actually a bigger problem. I wonder why there aren't Outside the Lines specials focusing on the awful aspects of that terrible game?

And all this time I thought soccer was terrible because it was boring.

[bisonmike2]

Can someone direct me to the "head injuries in soccer" thread? I've heard that is actually a bigger problem. I wonder why there aren't Outside the Lines specials focusing on the awful aspects of that terrible game?

Not a thread but here you go. Turns out hitting your head repeatedly, with anything, even a soccer ball, is not good for your brain. Who knew?

http://www.latitudenews.com/story/like-nfl-soccer-needs-to-tackle-problem-of-brain-damage-head-on/

[BisonNation11]

I have read very little of this thread or any links that have been placed in it, but you have to be off your rocker if you think there's no chance of any brain injury in any sport, especially contact sports. That's like someone going into a fire fighting career and expecting to not get hot, inhale smoke, get wet, or get burned. The second you sign up for anything, you're acknowledging you're taking a risk to your body. Stop whining and play or get off the field.

[Gully]

I have read very little of this thread or any links that have been placed in it, but you have to be off your rocker if you think there's no chance of any brain injury in any sport, especially contact sports. That's like someone going into a fire fighting career and expecting to not get hot, inhale smoke, get wet, or get burned. The second you sign up for anything, you're acknowledging you're taking a risk to your body. Stop whining and play or get off the field.

Exactly. This is just another example of people trying to make themselves feel better by "doing something".

[Wally]

I have read very little of this thread or any links that have been placed in it, but you have to be off your rocker if you think there's no chance of any brain injury in any sport, especially contact sports. That's like someone going into a fire fighting career and expecting to not get hot, inhale smoke, get wet, or get burned. The second you sign up for anything, you're acknowledging you're taking a risk to your body. Stop whining and play or get off the field.

I guess I missed the replies and/or claims stating that there is no chance of head injury while playing any sport, especially contact sports. I can't imagine anyone would make that claim, especially right now.

I started the thread because I heard the story of this kid dying and how unbelievably irresponsible the coaches were with dealing with an obvious concussion situation. Did the kid know football could cause a head injury? I'm assuming yes. That doesn't change the fact that those coaches, who are supposedly trained in recognizing concussions and their symptoms, failed miserably in looking out for the players health.

[BisonNation11]

I guess I missed the replies and/or claims stating that there is no chance of head injury while playing any sport, especially contact sports. I can't imagine anyone would make that claim, especially right now.

I started the thread because I heard the story of this kid dying and how unbelievably irresponsible the coaches were with dealing with an obvious concussion situation. Did the kid know football could cause a head injury? I'm assuming yes. That doesn't change the fact that those coaches, who are supposedly trained in recognizing concussions and their symptoms, failed miserably in looking out for the players health.

I apologize for going off topic with it and that story is absolutely terrible. I've expressed many times I have never played the game but I do recognize that in any of the sports I have played the risk is always there. I guess I'm just tired of hearing people say sports aren't safe and them wanting someone to pay for what has happened despite the fact they knew it could happen all along.

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[CAS4127]

It's Friday, let's not be so serious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BerJdS2VJhA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9q87i2xDzQ&list=RDBerJdS2VJhA