Fall enrollment hits all time high

[GCWaters]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/413146/

14,629 and second largest freshman class in history!

[Hammersmith]

Love that the graduate school is a big part of the growth. That needs to continue.

[Bison bison]

Just the beginning.

The new funding formula has leveled the playing field.

NDSU 36,000!

[Hammersmith]

Just the beginning.

The new funding formula has leveled the playing field.

NDSU 36,000!

I'll be happy with 15k undergrad + 5k grad.

/alittlepurple

[aces1180]

Was it just me, or was this statement taking a shot at another school? ;)


He said enrollment growth reflects the school’s strategic plan to enroll more “traditional, full-time students” that fit into the “rigorous research university.”

[Bison bison]

I'd be happy with 6,000 undergrads and 6,000 grad students.

:)

[Bison bison]

You better believe it.

95% of NDSU's students are on campus, every day.

That is quite different than the school to north.

[Trim]

...The new funding formula has leveled the playing field...

Is the new funding formula the reason I now see commercials for NDSU on TV again? In other words, NDSU is in a postiion to grow again?

[Tatanka]

Is the new funding formula the reason I now see commercials for NDSU on TV again? In other words, NDSU is in a postiion to grow again?




correctamundo

[Tatanka]

You better believe it.

95% of NDSU's students are on campus, every day.

That is quite different than the school to north.




this. Last years number for teh university was 16% of the students enrolled were online only... Never stepped foot in grand forks. Nice return on investment from a local taxpayer point of view.

Also, a significant portion of their enrollment was part time.


One would think that this would get more attention. Even the legislature directed that these figures be included in their reports. You can bet your bottom dollar that if it was ndsu sporting these numbers there would be a much bigger stank surrounding them.

[Bison bison]

Theyre at about 70% stepping foot on campus during the semester.

Pretty sure that butts in seats s in the formula.

[aces1180]

Right on cue, the butthurt comes from SAB...

He must've really hated his time at NDSU...I assume he never got laid nor had any friends.

[CAS4127]

Right on cue, the butthurt comes from SAB...

He must've really hated his time at NDSU...I assume he never got laid nor had any friends.

SAB?

Tranny is gay!!

[aces1180]

SAB?

Tranny is gay!!

Porterhouse...

[CAS4127]

Porterhouse...

What's his problem now?!

[aces1180]

What's his problem now?!

It's good news for NDSU...That's his problem.

[HerdBot]

Great news. With the Game day event, football sucess, and new funding model - we havent even scratched the surface. Hopefully we can continue to add programs and grow the campus

[GCWaters]

"Is the new funding formula the reason I now see commercials for NDSU on TV again? In other words, NDSU is in a postiion to grow again?"




Technically, yes, and we need it...the philosophy of the Chapman era was, for the most part, "if you build it, we will fund it"....unfortunately, we built too well and the funding dried up before it could be dispensed....right now, we have serious infrastructure problems--not enough faculty, office space, research space, classroom space, or operating budgets (which have been flat for over 20 years).....the new STEM building will help, but our departments are stretched way too thin....hopefully, the new funding formula over the next few years will bring some relief....

[Gully]

Can someone refresh my memory on what the changes were to the funding formula and how it's likely to impact NDSU and the school who's athletic department used to be led by the man with two first names.

[Bison bison]

The legislature on recommendation of the sbohe implemented a ridiculously elaborate funding formula.

Despite all it's flaws, it provides a basis for funding based on size, costs, and outcomes.

NDSU will rock the formula, flourish and grow.

[tjbison]

The legislature on recommendation of the sbohe implemented a ridiculously elaborate funding formula.

Despite all it's flaws, it provides a basis for funding based on size, costs, and outcomes.

NDSU will rock the formula, flourish and grow.

not if Portly Rob has anything to say about it.....I'm mean come on he is the only true journalist in the state.

[Hammersmith]

I was wondering why it was taking so long for UND to release their numbers. Was idly wondering if the news was bad or something.

UND admits fewer freshmen (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/274141/group/homepage/)


Student enrollment at UND has only slightly decreased since last year, but the number of incoming freshmen dropped 19 percent, according to spokesman Peter Johnson on Wednesday.

[NDSU1980]

I was wondering why it was taking so long for UND to release their numbers. Was idly wondering if the news was bad or something.

UND admits fewer freshmen (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/274141/group/homepage/)They had to enroll more Canadian hockey players on line. They always wait until we announce than magically, they have a number that's slightly higher than us. Not a coincidence. I'd say if you have _arell deliver a pizza to your house, you are automatically enrolled on line at UN_.

[reformedUNDfan]

UND is turning into an online degree mill, while NDSU "plan(s) to enroll more “traditional, full-time students” that fit into the “rigorous research university.”"

[roadwarrior]

Meanwhile.....out west: Dickinson State enrollment drops 42% in 3 years!

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/413949/

[North Side]

Meanwhile.....out west: Dickinson State enrollment drops 42% in 3 years!

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/413949/

good for them I hope they are making a recovery and running in a quality program

[MAKBison]

I get the whole contributing to the local tax base argument, but the fact is the online learner has a higher rate of return (profit Margin) than the the traditional student. Not trying to get into a pissing match, just pointing out a fact that this its a weak sauce argument. Online education needs to be part of SU strategy and looking at the emphasis they are placing in it (new director hiring---last year) it seems they are. Adult education and reaching motivated learners tied to location is a huge market.



this. Last years number for teh university was 16% of the students enrolled were online only... Never stepped foot in grand forks. Nice return on investment from a local taxpayer point of view.

Also, a significant portion of their enrollment was part time.


One would think that this would get more attention. Even the legislature directed that these figures be included in their reports. You can bet your bottom dollar that if it was ndsu sporting these numbers there would be a much bigger stank surrounding them.

[Tatanka]

I get the whole contributing to the local tax base argument, but the fact is the online learner has a higher rate of return (profit Margin) than the the traditional student. Not trying to get into a pissing match, just pointing out a fact that this its a weak sauce argument. Online education needs to be part of SU strategy and looking at the emphasis they are placing in it (new director hiring---last year) it seems they are. Adult education and reaching motivated learners tied to location is a huge market.

I'll try for a couple minutes to buy this, but "profit margin" for whom? The school? Certainly not the taxpayer. I don't believe it's weaksauce, but I respect your opinion.

Continuing to fund and build buildings and (non-IT) infrastructure for a growing online-only student base seems a bit silly to me. At a minimum, calling out the enrollment numbers and breaking them down to on-premise vs off-premise should be mandatory, if only to properly allocate funding. When a building boom coincides with an increasing rate of online-only students, something's wrong IMHO.

[BadlandsBison]

Meanwhile.....out west: Dickinson State enrollment drops 42% in 3 years!

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/413949/

That's sad to see. DSU has been saying for years that their enrollment is gonna drop. I call that a nose dive

[MAKBison]

If what you seem to be implying is that UN_ is misrepresenting its online students as traditional, ok I'll cede that's wrong. All universities should give the numbers straight up and not cook the books.

My point is that their is nothing wrong with UN_ or SU capturing a share in the online market. Also, When I taught at SU, I taught traditional, online and hybrid (courses using both the traditional and Online formats). With that being said, I had students that lived in the area and or on campus enrolled in all three formats.



I'll try for a couple minutes to buy this, but "profit margin" for whom? The school? Certainly not the taxpayer. I don't believe it's weaksauce, but I respect your opinion.

Continuing to fund and build buildings and (non-IT) infrastructure for a growing online-only student base seems a bit silly to me. At a minimum, calling out the enrollment numbers and breaking them down to on-premise vs off-premise should be mandatory, if only to properly allocate funding. When a building boom coincides with an increasing rate of online-only students, something's wrong IMHO.

[1998braves64]

I'll just state that for some on campus students it would be a benefit for them because if there is a class they want/need to take they can essentially overlap them if traditional classes are full or don't have a open time slot when that class is offered. Being on campus you still have access to teacher (generally speaking some are off campus) Point is most schools are moving classes to online to accommodate these students, because I am sure now days flexibility is a draw. Especially with many people returning to get a 2nd degree or masters etc.
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[bisonaudit]

I'll just state that for some on campus students it would be a benefit for them because if there is a class they want/need to take they can essentially overlap them if traditional classes are full or don't have a open time slot when that class is offered. Being on campus you still have access to teacher (generally speaking some are off campus) Point is most schools are moving classes to online to accommodate these students, because I am sure now days flexibility is a draw. Especially with many people returning to get a 2nd degree or masters etc.
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Also, it's nice if you're a super star QB because you can still get credit for going to class without going to class because if you did you'd be mobbed by hundreds of your fellow students.

[GCWaters]

I'll just state that for some on campus students it would be a benefit for them because if there is a class they want/need to take they can essentially overlap them if traditional classes are full or don't have a open time slot when that class is offered. Being on campus you still have access to teacher (generally speaking some are off campus) Point is most schools are moving classes to online to accommodate these students, because I am sure now days flexibility is a draw. Especially with many people returning to get a 2nd degree or masters etc.
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This...my understanding is that the vast majority of students in NDSU's online courses are actually residential students who are taking an online course here and there for scheduling convenience or some other similar reason....very few of them are non-residential students...again, to my understanding....

[CAS4127]

I'm betting that most of our student-athletes are taking at least one online course, if not more.


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[Bison"FANatic"]

I have no problem with online courses. Heck I have taken some of my best continuing ed online.

I don't think that the state should be funding the online credit the same as a in class credit though.

[344Johnson]

I'm betting that most of our student-athletes are taking at least one online course, if not more.


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CAS (circa 1985) taking online course....How about a nice game of chess?

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/WarGames-Sheedy-and-Broderick-on-computer.jpg

[Bison bison]

Shit.

CAS would try to get GFAB obliterated.

[344Johnson]

Shit.

CAS would try to get GFAB obliterated.

Soviet "First Strike".....GFAFB (Only an Air Base instead of Air Force Base if it is not on American soil).

http://www.hp9845.net/9845/hardware/9845c/images/war_games_1.png

[Bison bison]

I'll just state that for some on campus students it would be a benefit for them because if there is a class they want/need to take they can essentially overlap them if traditional classes are full or don't have a open time slot when that class is offered. Being on campus you still have access to teacher (generally speaking some are off campus) Point is most schools are moving classes to online to accommodate these students, because I am sure now days flexibility is a draw. Especially with many people returning to get a 2nd degree or masters etc.
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I disagree.

Most universities are going to online courses 1) to make money by leveraging technology, 2) to increase enrollment with distance students, and a distant 3/4) to provide high-quality education to non-traditional students/provide flexibility to traditional students.


Good/stable universities (there aren't many) focus on 3/4.

Poor/unstable schools focus on 1. This is where most NDUS institutions are at. They are spending big money to develop online courses to increase there enrollment. But the courses may be very poor. There is tremendous duplication. And students would be better off going to University of Phoenix.


(I know that there are many good online courses and programs out there.)

[Bison bison]

My solution, since you asked, is to create a new NDUS online campus which manages ALL online courses.

We don't need 8 schools developing their own 'intro to back scratching' course. There should be one. It should be excellent. It can be based out of Dickinson State for all I care.

We already have shared course listing and curriculum to accommodate transfers, this would be easy to do.


Of course, this would mean that Professor Flunko at Podunk State will not spend half of her semester thinking s/he's cracking atoms putting his/er bad 'back scratching' course online and go back to teaching it in front of four students.

[bisonaudit]

Speaking of the GFAFB, apparently this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Command-Control-Damascus-Accident-Illusion/dp/1594202273

contains a rather harrowing tale of a near miss nuclear weapons accident there.

[MAKBison]

From an instructor point of view online is twice the amount of work.


I have no problem with online courses. Heck I have taken some of my best continuing ed online.

I don't think that the state should be funding the online credit the same as a in class credit though.

[Bison bison]

To set up.

[MAKBison]

providing on line education is not as easy as it might seem. You use entirely different teaching techniques and the courses and curriculum need to be arranged differently. When they are done correctly and taught by those knowledgeable about the process they are highly effective. that being said, you can say the same thing about traditional courses as well.....a shitty course or an absent professor is a shitty course and an absent professor! I am thinking (more so banking on it) that universities like NDSU will hire the right folks to make their online programs successful


I disagree.

Most universities are going to online courses 1) to make money by leveraging technology, 2) to increase enrollment with distance students, and a distant 3/4) to provide high-quality education to non-traditional students/provide flexibility to traditional students.


Good/stable universities (there aren't many) focus on 3/4.

Poor/unstable schools focus on 1. This is where most NDUS institutions are at. They are spending big money to develop online courses to increase there enrollment. But the courses may be very poor. There is tremendous duplication. And students would be better off going to University of Phoenix.


(I know that there are many good online courses and programs out there.)

[Tatanka]

This...my understanding is that the vast majority of students in NDSU's online courses are actually residential students who are taking an online course here and there for scheduling convenience or some other similar reason....very few of them are non-residential students...again, to my understanding....




the numbers bear this out. 95+% of ndsu students take at least one on campus course. The number at uN_ where there have been a ton of building projects and disproportionately high funding, that number is <85%. Does not compute. Also gets conveniently left out when enrollment is generally discussed...

[MAKBison]

Yeah well, lets put the state legislature in charge of higher ed that will fix it :biggrin:


the numbers bear this out. 95+% of ndsu students take at least one on campus course. The number at uN_ where there have been a ton of building projects and disproportionately high funding, that number is <85%. Does not compute. Also gets conveniently left out when enrollment is generally discussed...

[Tatanka]

Yeah well, lets put the state legislature in charge of higher ed that will fix it :biggrin:




if you mean fix it like you would get your dog fixed, well, yes! That would work well.

[MAKBison]

That's exactly what I meant!:biggrin:


if you mean fix it like you would get your dog fixed, well, yes! That would work well.

[Hammersmith]

Let's dig this thread up in preparation of the fall 2014 numbers. Only info I've seen so far is that total enrollment is up again(9th straight record year), and that the incoming class is the third largest ever. Also that it is less than 2500. No exact numbers provided. I'll try to dig through some of the old numbers to see what exactly that range is. No word from up north that I can find.

Reminder: no final numbers until Sep 23.

http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2014/aug/27/ndsu-first-year-students-third-highest-in-school-history/


edit: The incoming freshmen class must be somewhere between 2460 and 2499. Here are the last decade of freshmen enrollments sorted by year followed by size:

2014 - 2460-2499
2013 - 2553
2012 - 2441
2011 - 2420
2010 - 2400
2009 - 2459
2008 - 2661
2007 - 2166
2006 - 2076
2005 - 2024
2004 - 2142


2661 - 2008
2553 - 2013
24xx - 2014 (2460-2499)
2459 - 2009
2441 - 2012
2420 - 2011
2400 - 2010
2166 - 2007
2142 - 2004
2076 - 2006
2024 - 2005

[Tatanka]

Let's dig this thread up in preparation of the fall 2014 numbers. Only info I've seen so far is that total enrollment is up again(9th straight record year), and that the incoming class is the third largest ever. No numbers provided. I'll try to dig through some of the old numbers to see what exactly that is. No word from up north that I can find.


As is customary, they will wait until NDSU's press release is public, then add at least one, or come up with some way to spin why large enrollment isn't a good thing. The only suspense is which route they will choose.

[MAKBison]

SU could be at 20K in a blink....just dont have or at least did not have the infrastructural to support it.

All in all If Su and ND would embrace its potential, I think you could see a 30K institute



Just the beginning.

The new funding formula has leveled the playing field.

NDSU 36,000!

[THEsocalledfan]

As is customary, they will wait until NDSU's press release is public, then add at least one, or come up with some way to spin why large enrollment isn't a good thing. The only suspense is which route they will choose.
So no numbers yet from the Hitler Youth Academy?

[tjbison]

So no numbers yet from the Hitler Youth Academy?


well no, they wait until NDSU releases theirs and add 500 to 1000

[Hammersmith]

Looks like you guys are correct. NDSU announces 14,512, UND announces 14,598(down 2%).

Unless something massive happens at one of the two schools, NDSU will retake the lead next year. NDSU freshman classes are significantly larger than UND's the last few years, and the huge classes that allowed UND to retake the lead are graduating out. Also NDSU transfers-in are trending up while UND's are trending down.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/freshman-enrollment-steady-und-while-overall-enrollment-was-down

Freshman enrollment
2013 NDSU - 2553
2014 NDSU - 2494

2013 UND - 1925
2014 UND - 1929

[GCWaters]

Looks like you guys are correct. NDSU announces 14,512, UND announces 14,598(down 2%).

Unless something massive happens at one of the two schools, NDSU will retake the lead next year. NDSU freshman classes are significantly larger than UND's the last few years, and the huge classes that allowed UND to retake the lead are graduating out. Also NDSU transfers-in are trending up while UND's are trending down.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/freshman-enrollment-steady-und-while-overall-enrollment-was-down

Freshman enrollment
2013 NDSU - 2553
2014 NDSU - 2494

2013 UND - 1925
2014 UND - 1929


Holy crap! That's a huge freshman class difference!



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[THEsocalledfan]

Unless something massive happens at one of the two schools, NDSU will retake the lead next year.

You doubt the Hitler Youth Academy's ability to cook the books? Shame on you!

[BYZEN]

Looks like you guys are correct. NDSU announces 14,512, UND announces 14,598(down 2%).

Unless something massive happens at one of the two schools, NDSU will retake the lead next year. NDSU freshman classes are significantly larger than UND's the last few years, and the huge classes that allowed UND to retake the lead are graduating out. Also NDSU transfers-in are trending up while UND's are trending down.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/freshman-enrollment-steady-und-while-overall-enrollment-was-down

Freshman enrollment
2013 NDSU - 2553
2014 NDSU - 2494

2013 UND - 1925
2014 UND - 1929

I take it this includes their large number of "online" students....:ranting:

[Tatanka]

I take it this includes their large number of "online" students....:ranting:



Sure it does!

Queue the "quality over quantity" spin from el forko, which the herald will copy and paste with glee, ignoring of course the facts that suggest otherwise...

[Bison bison]

Students who don't even finish their first class, let alone graduate.

[Hammersmith]

Sure it does!

Queue the "quality over quantity" spin from el forko, which the herald will copy and paste with glee, ignoring of course the facts that suggest otherwise...

They already did that in the article I linked. They repeated the argument that last year's drop in freshman class size was due to higher standards even though research from the GFH last year showed that to be false.

[Hammersmith]

And they did it again. Here's a quote from the article:


Johnson said this year’s freshman class tied its previous best high school GPA at 3.38, and had the highest ACT score at 23.7.

“We’re thinking this is probably our best overall academically prepared class of new freshmen,” Johnson said, adding that it’s also the most diverse UND has had.


I wonder if the reporters ever bother to cross-check facts. Not saying UND's number is inaccurate, just that a comparison to other local schools might be in order.

NDSU incoming GPA
2011: 3.39
2012: 3.39
2013: 3.41
(I only went back 3 years)

NDSU incoming ACT
2010: 23.7
2011: 23.8
2012: 23.7
2013: 23.8


So NDSU is matching or exceeding the quality of UND's incoming freshmen even while bringing in significantly larger classes. Flagship UND.

[B. b. bison]

Flagship UND.

Pictured:
http://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/7.10548.1368549481!/image/Aral-Sea-boat.jpg_gen/derivatives/fullsize/Aral-Sea-boat.jpg

[tony]

Holy crap! That's a huge freshman class difference!


It's been like that for a long time. I'm not sure when the last time UND's incoming freshman class was as large as NDSU's - usually NDSU's class is 500 students bigger. That, coupled with the fact that so many of the students in the university system's headcounts are part-time, online, and non-degree-seeking, explains why NDSU's graduating classes are so much larger despite UND's headcount being higher.

That said, last spring, NDSU didn't have that many more students eligible for graduation than UND so either UND had a great one-year improvement in graduation rates or four to five years earlier NDSU and UND had similarly-sized incoming classes. I know the first year after Chapman, NDSU's incoming class took a huge hit.

[MAKBison]

It should also be mentioned that the hit was also by design.....SU did not have the infrastructure to keep up with growth.



It's been like that for a long time. I'm not sure when the last time UND's incoming freshman class was as large as NDSU's - usually NDSU's class is 500 students bigger. That, coupled with the fact that so many of the students in the university system's headcounts are part-time, online, and non-degree-seeking, explains why NDSU's graduating classes are so much larger despite UND's headcount being higher.

That said, last spring, NDSU didn't have that many more students eligible for graduation than UND so either UND had a great one-year improvement in graduation rates or four to five years earlier NDSU and UND had similarly-sized incoming classes. I know the first year after Chapman, NDSU's incoming class took a huge hit.

[reformedUNDfan]

I wonder how bad it would look if you ignored aviation? The average incoming ACT would probably drop .3 or so.

[Gully]

I was surprised to not see any additional comments here...didn't the numbers just get finalized?

[Gully]

http://ndsunews.areavoices.com/2014/09/25/ndsu-fall-enrollment-at-all-time-high/

North Dakota State University’s fall 2014 enrollment is the highest in university history. The university’s official fourth-week enrollment is 14,747 undergraduate, graduate and professional students.

The average high school grade point average of entering freshman is 3.43. Thirty percent of the entering students have high school grade point averages of 3.75 or higher. The average ACT score is 24.02.

[Tatanka]

http://ndsunews.areavoices.com/2014/09/25/ndsu-fall-enrollment-at-all-time-high/

North Dakota State University’s fall 2014 enrollment is the highest in university history. The university’s official fourth-week enrollment is 14,747 undergraduate, graduate and professional students.

The average high school grade point average of entering freshman is 3.43. Thirty percent of the entering students have high school grade point averages of 3.75 or higher. The average ACT score is 24.02.

But, but, but, but, but, but.......

[bisonmike2]

It should also be mentioned that the hit was also by design.....SU did not have the infrastructure to keep up with growth.

Wasn't part of that the interim president Hansen (?) went around saying that NDSU was growing too fast and that we needed to take a step back and look at growth.

[THEsocalledfan]

http://ndsunews.areavoices.com/2014/09/25/ndsu-fall-enrollment-at-all-time-high/

North Dakota State University’s fall 2014 enrollment is the highest in university history. The university’s official fourth-week enrollment is 14,747 undergraduate, graduate and professional students.

The average high school grade point average of entering freshman is 3.43. Thirty percent of the entering students have high school grade point averages of 3.75 or higher. The average ACT score is 24.02.

That is higher than the Hitler Youth Academies number posted in early September on the previous page of this thread. Have they released their 4 week numbers which, if they aren't already, will be higher than 14,747 in the next few minutes?

[Bison bison]

NDSU was growing too fast. That's a fact.

[bisonmike2]

NDSU was growing too fast. That's a fact.

But wasn't his (Hansen's) take more from the point that NDSU should never strive to be bigger than a small regional university? I don't' remember the specifics but I remember him coming off as bleak and pessimistic. He definitely wasn't the visionary Chapman was.

[Tatanka]

That is higher than the Hitler Youth Academies number posted in early September on the previous page of this thread. Have they released their 4 week numbers which, if they aren't already, will be higher in 14,747 in the next few minutes?

That depends on how many people logged in to http://www.und.edu over the past couple of weeks but forgot to clear their browser history. Once the cookie is on your hard drive for a week they count you as enrolled.

[Bison bison]

But wasn't his (Hansen's) take more from the point that NDSU should never strive to be bigger than a small regional university? I don't' remember the specifics but I remember him coming off as bleak and pessimistic. He definitely wasn't the visionary Chapman was.


No. He was a realist.

NDSU was in tremendously deep sh#t.

Chapman was too ambitious.

[SDbison]

No. He was a realist.

NDSU was in tremendously deep sh#t.

Chapman was too ambitious. Whatever.........where do you come up with this garbage. Hansen was an idiot.

[Hammersmith]

http://ndsunews.areavoices.com/2014/09/25/ndsu-fall-enrollment-at-all-time-high/

North Dakota State University’s fall 2014 enrollment is the highest in university history. The university’s official fourth-week enrollment is 14,747 undergraduate, graduate and professional students.

The average high school grade point average of entering freshman is 3.43. Thirty percent of the entering students have high school grade point averages of 3.75 or higher. The average ACT score is 24.02.

Holy crap was that news release a shot across the bow versus UND. UND was doing their best to talk up their record high GPA and ACT numbers when the first day totals came out. The numbers in NDSU's release beat UND's records by a not-insignificant amount.

From UND back in August:

Johnson said this year’s freshman class tied its previous best high school GPA at 3.38, and had the highest ACT score at 23.7.

“We’re thinking this is probably our best overall academically prepared class of new freshmen,” Johnson said, adding that it’s also the most diverse UND has had.

[MAKBison]

Depends on how you look at it....JC had to push push and push some more. Pushing it and dealing with the consequences was the only way to advance NDSU to where is should be. BTW we are still not there yet!




No. He was a realist.

NDSU was in tremendously deep sh#t.

Chapman was too ambitious.

[GCWaters]

There's no doubt that Chapman was a visionary who accomplished a $&@"load...there's also no doubt that we have the infrastructure and faculty for 10-12,000, not nearly 15,000....


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[MAKBison]

Yes, but the only way to get the state to invest in the infrastructure is show its insufficient. If you wait for the investment to expand and then grow into it....wellllll, You will be that same old sleepy teaching college the state legislatures want you to be. Ie,. you'll be waiting awfully long!


SU could be 25k in an instant, if it pushed.



There's no doubt that Chapman was a visionary who accomplished a $&@"load...there's also no doubt that we have the infrastructure and faculty for 10-12,000, not nearly 15,000....


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[NDSU92]

Yes, but the only way to get the state to invest in the infrastructure is show its insufficient. If you wait for the investment to expand and then grow into it....wellllll, You will be that same old sleepy teaching college the state legislatures want you to be. Ie,. you'll be waiting awfully long!


SU could be 25k in an instant, if it pushed.

I agree that NDSU could be 25k if it wanted but I wouldn't want to see NDSU's enrollment standards get lowered to make that happen (I'm not saying that you do). NDSU has done a nice job growing while still improving on the quality of students enrolled all while keeping tuition at a VERY affordable cost, something that very few colleges regionally and even nationally can say.

[MAKBison]

I dont think SU needs to lower any standards if it wants to achieve 25K students. offer it and they will come. I think SU could be 25K with traditional students. Su coulg grow even larger if SU wanted to include other available segments. Also, the business model of adding more students verses being selective equates to cheaper verses more expensive tuition. Right now SU should be tapping into highly motivated, but tied to location type students (adult online education). It would brig in more $$$ and not over burden the infrastructure. It should also be partnering with industry and business by offering certification programs. I think if you pay close attention you can see SU positioning itself to do just this.



I agree that NDSU could be 25k if it wanted but I wouldn't want to see NDSU's enrollment standards get lowered to make that happen (I'm not saying that you do). NDSU has done a nice job growing while still improving on the quality of students enrolled all while keeping tuition at a VERY affordable cost, something that very few colleges regionally and even nationally can say.

[NDSU92]

I dont think SU needs to lower any standards if it wants to achieve 25K students. offer it and they will come. I think SU could be 25K with traditional students. Su coulg grow even larger if SU wanted to include other available segments. Also, the business model of adding more students verses being selective equates to cheaper verses more expensive tuition. Right now SU should be tapping into highly motivated, but tied to location type students (adult online education). It would brig in more $$$ and not over burden the infrastructure. It should also be partnering with industry and business by offering certification programs. I think if you pay close attention you can see SU positioning itself to do just this.

I'm definitely not an expert on this subject, and you definitely sound like you know much more than I do. I was just saying that as a current NDSU student I wouldn't like to see my degree lose value in the name of unsustainable growth.

[MAKBison]

I hear you BTW if your degree loses value my degree loses value so I am right there with you. Your point is what drives me and a number of other on her insane, ND has the $$$$ to sustain Su's growth it just fights it all the way. The anti growth chuckleheads just cant seem to figure out that when your land grant grows it improves the quality of life for the entire state.



I'm definitely not an expert on this subject, and you definitely sound like you know much more than I do. I was just saying that as a current NDSU student I wouldn't like to see my degree lose value in the name of unsustainable growth.

[NDSU92]

I hear you BTW if your degree loses value my degree loses value so I am right there with you. Your point is what drives me and a number of other on her insane, ND has the $$$$ to sustain Su's growth it just fights it all the way. The anti growth chuckleheads just cant seem to figure out that when your land grant grows it improves the quality of life for the entire state.

Agree 100%. The amount this state invests in its higher education is PATHETIC.

[MAKBison]

Yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


agree 100%. The amount this state invests in its higher education is pathetic.

[Bison bison]

Yes, but the only way to get the state to invest in the infrastructure is show its insufficient.

What state do you think NDSU is in?


The state told Chapman to go pound sand after he'd already expanded the University too much.

[Bison bison]

Agree 100%. The amount this state invests in its higher education is PATHETIC.

False!

The way they invest their money is pathetic.

[Bison bison]

I dont think SU needs to lower any standards if it wants to achieve 25K students.


From where? It's either your ass or China.

There aren't that many kids.

[MAKBison]

The state told Chapman to pound sand several times before he made the push. Thank goodness that Joe did not listen or SU would still be considered a sleepy teaching college verses a top tier research Univ. The state Owes JC a huge Thank you!



What state do you think NDSU is in?


The state told Chapman to go pound sand after he'd already expanded the University too much.

[Bison bison]

I don't know what the h#ll you're talking about.

The state only addressed the funding issue in 2013. NDSU is still getting a less than equitable capital allotment.

[MAKBison]

yeah my ass thats it.



From where? It's either your ass or China.

There aren't that many kids.

[Bison bison]

well it certainly isn't the Upper Midwest.

[MAKBison]

Thats what we are saying the state is not investing in HIED like it should



I doNon't know what the h#ll you're talking about.

The state only addressed the funding issue in 2013. NDSU is still getting a less than equitable capital allotment.

[Bison bison]

You were asserting that the legislature acquiesced to Chapman's ambitious expansion.

That is false. The state did not increase funding as expected (promised?). This put NDSU is an untenable situation that Hansen and Bresciani have had to clean up.

///

I'm a huge Chapman fan. He basically told ND parochialism to f off.

[MAKBison]

why do you think this and what is your general occupation/knowledge/expertise in this area. Not being argumentative at all BTW.....The reason I ask is I honestly want to hear a valid rational for your thought verses the one my marketing and products team pitched to me.


well it certainly isn't the Upper Midwest.

[Hammersmith]

Don't like to see the graduate school numbers fall off even if it was only by 58. It's the one area where I really wish NDSU would go for another big push(shoot for 3000-3500).

The way I read the numbers:

2013
2553 freshmen
644 transfers
11,948 undergrad
2,681 grad
14,629 total

2014
2??? freshmen
712 transfers
12,124 undergrad
2,623 grad
14,747 total

[MAKBison]

I see what you are saying.....valid point but I would argue it was more about changing mindsets and stretching the comfort zone.... Rubber band theory. Joe had to fall on the sword once the SL moved against him so the next guy would be able to continue the vision. Some might say cleaning up the mess and some do. Others say JC made what change transpired possible. I have heard both sides of the argument and I fall on the later.
You were asserting that the legislature acquiesced to Chapman's ambitious expansion.

That is false. The state did not increase funding as expected (promised?). This put NDSU is an untenable situation that Hansen and Bresciani have had to clean up.

///

I'm a huge Chapman fan. He basically told ND parochialism to f off.

[Bison bison]

How many students graduate in MN, ND, and SD each year?

How many of them are NDSU quality?

Where do those students want to go?

How many could NDSU actually get?

Answers
1. 75,000.
2. 25,000. (about 30% are really ready for university)
3. U of M. NDSU. (in that order)
4. NDSU can double it's undergraduate enrollment with no change in quality? The U of M, UXD, SDSU, and others want the same thing NDSU wants. It would need to grab almost a third of the students in the region that meet that threshold.


Also, I wasn't joking about China. If wanted there would be 5,000 Chinese nationals on campus by 2020.

[Bison bison]

I see what you are saying.....valid point but I would argue it was more about changing mindsets and stretching the comfort zone.... Rubber band theory. Joe had to fall on the sword once the SL moved against him so the next guy would be able to continue the vision. Some might say cleaning up the mess and some do. Others say JC made what change transpired possible. I have heard both sides of the argument and I fall on the later.

I absolutely agree with your points, maybe not the same words or to the same degree.

But there was a cost to what Joe did. The guy was a wreckless egotist.

[MAKBison]

I am talking about the actual market----there is room to grow. I think what you are seeing with the grad numbers is due to Pres B holding schools accountable for their own budgets----the Schools and University not supporting TAssitance verses making the programs find these $$$ and the programs are not there yet. let the programs adjust to not being on the University tit for awhile and you will see a surge. Also, there needs to be a good purge of some of these program chairs and there will be with the boom retirements. Also we need to raise the Profs salaries a bit more so the are nationally competitive and we are bringing in more top notch faculty----a ways to go on this, but its getting better.


Don't like to see the graduate school numbers fall off even if it was only by 58.

The way I read the numbers:

2013
2553 freshmen
644 transfers
11,948 undergrad
2,681 grad
14,629 total

2014
2??? freshmen
712 transfers
12,124 undergrad
2,623 grad
14,747 total

[MAKBison]

LOL we are not too far off. I think JC had a solid plan, I also think his head got a bit too big for his own good.




I absolutely agree with your points, maybe not the same words or to the same degree.

But there was a cost to what Joe did. The guy was a wreckless egotist.

[MAKBison]

You are looking just at traditional students. There are other segments out there that we have not traditionally tapped into...so yes I know you were not joking about china. The adult back to school market is huge as well.



How many students graduate in MN, ND, and SD each year?

How many of them are NDSU quality?

Where do those students want to go?

How many could NDSU actually get?

Answers
1. 75,000.
2. 25,000. (about 30% are really ready for university)
3. U of M. NDSU. (in that order)
4. NDSU can double it's undergraduate enrollment with no change in quality? The U of M, UXD, SDSU, and others want the same thing NDSU wants. It would need to grab almost a third of the students in the region that meet that threshold.


Also, I wasn't joking about China. If wanted there would be 5,000 Chinese nationals on campus by 2020.

[El_Chapo]

NDSU could be 25000 next year. The ndsu brand is hot hot hot. Legislature needs to switch focus off the small colleges to NDSU fargo is really exploding. Don't hold it back

[WYOBISONMAN]

No. He was a realist.

NDSU was in tremendously deep sh#t.

Chapman was too ambitious.

You are a fool.

[MAKBison]

never gunna happen....its like retiring a post office. BUTTTTT it should happen!



NDSU could be 25000 next year. The ndsu brand is hot hot hot. Legislature needs to switch focus off the small colleges to NDSU fargo is really exploding. Don't hold it back

[Bison bison]

You are a fool.

That really hurts coming from you...

[Bison bison]

You are looking just at traditional students. There are other segments out there that we have not traditionally tapped into...so yes I know you were not joking about china. The adult back to school market is huge as well.

I think you're tremendously overestimating the opportunities for non-traditional students.

How many FTE's of students that graduate do you think you're going to get from adult students? online students?

I don't see NDSU adding a large number of night or weekend classes. And if they did do you think there would be 1,000 new students? I certainly don't.

I don't see NDSU whoring itself out for online students. Good online programs take BIG TIME resources and time to develop. Again do you think that NDSU could add 1,000 students in this I area? I don't.


I'm very much for NDSU growing now that the funding formula is in place. I really don't see NDSU growing beyond 16,000-18,000 students (FTEs). I don't see how it could get to 25,000 for 15 years, if ever.

[MAKBison]

Traditional will never go away, but larger segments of online learning is the future. Look at Su's ConED hiring and you can see SU is shifting. Shoot, I taught the first online course in my program area at SU in 2008. Now there are several online courses. I can say with the 100 accuracy that there are programs that cant fund all of there costs simply because they have Profs who are resistant to ONline. Should also state the resistance is not because OL is less effective than tradtional...ITS NOT! They are resistant because they lack the ability to adapt and or understand the landscape is/has changed.
---------------

BTW SU could pick up thousands of students this way.

Also, the trend for public schools is to move into the online market...a market traditionally held by For profits. This is causing a bit of war over market share (students), why would I go to said online when I can go to Penn state. for that matter, Why would I go to SU over Penn state. Location is not a factor anymore. The question if you are a SU type univ is this....... how do you position the Unv. against competting with Penn.....well you can get smaller and be more restrictive (bt this will cause Tuition and cost to go up). Or you grow your brand through research Sports etc... while you should do all of this a more effective strategy is to partner with/align program with Corporations, business, government and other countries etc. by offering certification competency.









I think you're tremendously overestimating the opportunities for non-traditional students.

How many FTE's of students that graduate do you think you're going to get from adult students? online students?

I don't see NDSU adding a large number of night or weekend classes. And if they did do you think there would be 1,000 new students? I certainly don't.

I don't see NDSU whoring itself out for online students. Good online programs take BIG TIME resources and time to develop. Again do you think that NDSU could add 1,000 students in this I area? I don't.


I'm very much for NDSU growing now that the funding formula is in place. I really don't see NDSU growing beyond 16,000-18,000 students (FTEs). I don't see how it could get to 25,000 for 15 years, if ever.

[Bison bison]

But those are typically residential students taking a course or two.

[tony]

I'm very much for NDSU growing now that the funding formula is in place. I really don't see NDSU growing beyond 16,000-18,000 students (FTEs). I don't see how it could get to 25,000 for 15 years, if ever.

They had a funding in place before too - it was based on funding schools like their peers. The only problem was that, at the extremes, Mayville and Valley City were getting funded at 100+% of their peers and NDSU was getting funded at under 50%. So Chapman could have gotten what he wanted but the problem was that each student at NDSU made the budget situation worse because of the unfair funding. It's kind of like other schools were being rewarded for more students while NDSU was being punished.

Then there's the infrastructure deal. If NDSU got the infrastructure that Williston State does, then that'd be about $1 billion in new buildings over the next six years. Pretty sure that isn't going to happen. Other schools ask for, say, $30 million for a new building, the SBoHE forwards to the Legislature, and the Legislature bumps up the amount ("You need $30 million for a performing arts center... cripes, I'm not having our babies go to plays in a third world environment, here take $5 million more and build something we can be proud of." With NDSU, like the STEM building, the SBoHE will say that NDSU needs $x million to build it and the Legislature will say, "oh noes, they dint, higher ed spending is out of control" and they fork over $x-5 million.

[oldmantutters]

I don't want to seem complacent but we should be happy with record enrollment. I heard on KFGO the otherday college enrollment across the country is down 5%. The economy is clipping along better right now so more people are working rather than improving their resumes. It probably explains graduate student enrollment being down, people are finding jobs without needing to get a master's. I really feel that NDSU is setup nicely going forward as people focus more on STEM. I agree with offering more certifications.

[NDSU1980]

UN_ drops another 6 percent this year, but nowhere in that damned article do they ever give an actual enrollment figure. The spinmeisters are still good at the Heroldo.

http://www.inforum.com/content/und-cites-higher-admission-standards-6-percent-decline-enrollment

[Hammersmith]

Waiting two days and this is what we get? Lots of words meaning nothing.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/und-sees-enrollment-drop-cites-higher-admission-standards-drop

Not only is it a joke that UND's "tougher admission standards" are actually producing weaker freshman classes than NDSU, but there is not a single number in that article that you can use to draw information from. Except maybe that their 2014 freshman class is 2 students smaller than last year's. BTW, that "almost 80%" retention rate that they're so proud of? Last year was 78% for NDSU. Won't know this year's rate for a few months unless NDSU adds it to a news release or a news agency asks for it.

edit: 1980 posts while I'm pontificating

[Hammersmith]

UN_ drops another 6 percent this year, but nowhere in that damned article do they ever give an actual enrollment figure. The spinmeisters are still good at the Heroldo.

http://www.inforum.com/content/und-cites-higher-admission-standards-6-percent-decline-enrollment

Worse than that. The 6% is from last year. They don't say how much it dropped this year, only that it dropped. At least that's the way I'm reading it.


The university said the 6 percent decrease in student enrollment last year is because of a conscious effort to admit students with higher GPAs and ACT scores along with large graduating classes.

If it was another 6% drop, I would think it would be worded:

"The university said the 6 percent decrease in student enrollment since last year..."

[NDSUstudent]

UN_ drops another 6 percent this year, but nowhere in that damned article do they ever give an actual enrollment figure. The spinmeisters are still good at the Heroldo.

http://www.inforum.com/content/und-cites-higher-admission-standards-6-percent-decline-enrollment

Wow no shortage of excuses in that article....

[B. b. bison]

UND cites higher admission standards for 6 percent decline in enrollment (http://www.inforum.com/content/und-cites-higher-admission-standards-6-percent-decline-enrollment)

Of course there is absolutely no mention of the stats of admitted students or enrolled students.

Also this:
"In an effort to increase student retention, admission standards went from requiring a 2.25 GPA and a 22 ACT score in 2012 to requiring a 2.75 GPA and a 21 ACT score this fall, Johnson said."
Upping one criterion and lowering the other equals a net increase in 'admission standards' without offering any justification.

The article also offers this:
"On top of that, 47 percent of students who were accepted actually enrolled, which is a 10 percent increase from last year’s five-year low."
Without any information about historical number of students admitted. Was it 42% last year or 37%?

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the The Forum is a Shitty Paper thread

[NDSUstudent]

Worse than that. The 6% is from last year. They don't say how much it dropped this year, only that it dropped. At least that's the way I'm reading it.



If it was another 6% drop, I would think it would be worded:

"The university said the 6 percent decrease in student enrollment since last year..."

I'm confused because the headline reads like there was a 6% decline this year.

Here is UND's final 2013 numbers, they claim a .07% drop in 2013 so it must mean they fell by 6% this year...

2013 enrollment numbers (http://undnews.areavoices.com/2013/10/02/und-posts-final-enrollment-of-15143/)

[NDSU1980]

So what did they have last year? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they're at. Looks like we passed them up again. Suck it up. Flagship my ass

Edit: NDSU student came up with the numbers. A 6% drop this year would put them at 14,234. We are at 14,747.

[Hammersmith]

UND cites higher admission standards for 6 percent decline in enrollment (http://www.inforum.com/content/und-cites-higher-admission-standards-6-percent-decline-enrollment)

Of course there is absolutely no mention of the stats of admitted students or enrolled students.

Also this:
"In an effort to increase student retention, admission standards went from requiring a 2.25 GPA and a 22 ACT score in 2012 to requiring a 2.75 GPA and a 21 ACT score this fall, Johnson said."
Upping one criterion and lowering the other equals a net increase in 'admission standards' without offering any justification.

The article also offers this:
"On top of that, 47 percent of students who were accepted actually enrolled, which is a 10 percent increase from last year’s five-year low."
Without any information about historical number of students admitted. Was it 42% last year or 37%?

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the The Forum is a Shitty Paper thread

Actually, that whole section is wrong. Here are UND's numbers from last year:

Applied: 4735
Admitted: 3362
Enrolled(FT): 1888
Enrolled(all): 1908

I can't get either 43%* or 37%** from that. Actual enrollment rate was 57% last year. Admission rate was 71%. Enrollment from application was 40%(mostly useless statistic).

*43% x 1.10 = 47.3%
**37% + 10% = 47%

[NDSUstudent]

So what did they have last year? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they're at. Looks like we passed them up again. Suck it up. Flagship my ass

Edit: NDSU student came up with the numbers. A 6% drop this year would put them at 14,234. We are at 14,747.

That is what I got as well, but that would mean they lost students from what they announced earlier this month which doesn't seem right. Not sure the clowns at the Heraldo could write a worse article.

[Hammersmith]

I'm confused because the headline reads like there was a 6% decline this year.

Here is UND's final 2013 numbers, they claim a .07% drop in 2013 so it must mean they fell by 6% this year...

2013 enrollment numbers (http://undnews.areavoices.com/2013/10/02/und-posts-final-enrollment-of-15143/)

Okay, you're right. Badly worded sentence in the article. (shocker)

I guess 6% sounds better than almost a thousand fewer students than last year(approx. 908 fewer).

[Hammersmith]

That is what I got as well, but that would mean they lost students from what they announced earlier this month which doesn't seem right. Not sure the clowns at the Heraldo could write a worse article.

No, I don't think it's that uncommon for the final total to be smaller than the first day figure. I think it's more common for a student to enroll but not come up with the money than it is for one enroll at the last minute. When the enrollment war was really tight several years back, I want to say that both schools typically had lower final totals than first day. But my memory could be playing tricks.

[Tatanka]

Anyone else find it odd that un_ can offer anyone with a discernable pulse a $1500 per year scholarship while NDSU struggles to get funded properly? Would love love loooooove to see the percentage of online only students as well...
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

[NDSU1980]

No, I don't think it's that uncommon for the final total to be smaller than the first day figure. I think it's more common for a student to enroll but not come up with the money than it is for one enroll at the last minute. When the enrollment war was really tight several years back, I want to say that both schools typically had lower final totals than first day. But my memory could be playing tricks.

Really, after they take one look at UN_ and Grand Forko, I'm sure a great many students turn right around and leave.

[THEsocalledfan]

So is NDSU officially bigger?

[NDSUstudent]

No, I don't think it's that uncommon for the final total to be smaller than the first day figure. I think it's more common for a student to enroll but not come up with the money than it is for one enroll at the last minute. When the enrollment war was really tight several years back, I want to say that both schools typically had lower final totals than first day. But my memory could be playing tricks.

Maybe that is right, I will admit I don't pay that close of attention. Still though it seems like a rather large drop, too bad all the real journalists have fled the Heraldo.

[Hammersmith]

So is NDSU officially bigger?

Must be. By around 510.

[B. b. bison]

Actually, that whole section is wrong. Here are UND's numbers from last year:

Applied: 4735
Admitted: 3362
Enrolled(FT): 1888
Enrolled(all): 1908

I can't get either 43%* or 37%** from that. Actual enrollment rate was 57% last year. Admission rate was 71%. Enrollment from application was 40%(mostly useless statistic).

*43% x 1.10 = 47.3%
**37% + 10% = 47%

Well that's unsurprising but still disappointing. Thanks for the breakdown!

[THEsocalledfan]

Must be. By around 510.

Can we officially say, SUCK IT "FLAGSHIP"?

[Tatanka]

Can we officially say, SUCK IT "FLAGSHIP"?


With or without substantiation? Either way, yes.

[Bison bison]

Must be. By around 510.


It's going to get a hell of a lot bigger.


Just drove through the Cities this weekend and saw two large NDSU billboards (they may have been up earlier this year).


Opening the gates helps, advertising even more.


I can see why NDSU would appeal to a lot of students in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

[Gully]

The billboards are cool, they seem to do it when SU is in the news (BB tourney, natty, game day)

[Hammersmith]

I wanted to see the experience of the GFH UND beat reporter who wrote that "article" yesterday. A quick google search and twitter link told me she's a very recent USD grad. Questionable reporter, but her tweets during the nickname committee meeting were rather amusing. Just a bit sarcastic.

[Tatanka]

Nice to see the entire school rally around Bubbles and his "not looking at the scoreboard" mentality...

Wait, is the worm turning?

I suppose this is all for naught. You watch, they will ask for and receive more funding to get back on "top".
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

[NDSU1980]

I e mailed the gal and pointed out that the story was useless without attendance figures. Apparently she isn't smart enough to figure out how to read or respond yet.

[Tatanka]

I e mailed the gal and pointed out that the story was useless without attendance figures. Apparently she isn't smart enough to figure out how to read or respond yet.


You see, that information wasn't in the press release issued by un-. No copy --> no paste. So obviously it doesn't exist, and if it did, she couldn't ask about it, but if she did, the heraldo wouldn't print it anyway.

[Hammersmith]

I e mailed the gal and pointed out that the story was useless without attendance figures. Apparently she isn't smart enough to figure out how to read or respond yet.

Real reason: probably off work for the weekend.

But did you also mention to her that her predecessor had basically called UND liars when they tried that same excuse last year(enrollment drop due to fictional "increased standards")? Or asked her if she realized that the reason UND suddenly became vague on exactly how improved this class is is because NDSU released numbers showing they were getting even better students while increasing enrollment?

I almost emailed her about this stuff yesterday, but figured what was the point? Maybe I'll do it tomorrow if I get really bored watching the NFL.

[Tatanka]

Could also ask her to check into if the higher standards were UN-'s initiative? Are they different than NDSU's?

Wasn't this part of Shirvani's plan for the two major colleges?

Nah, those questions are hard. Better go back to getting cute puppy overload and such.
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

[Gully]

Could also ask her to check into if the higher standards were UN-'s initiative? Are they different than NDSU's?

Wasn't this part of Shirvani's plan for the two major colleges?

Nah, those questions are hard. Better go back to getting cute puppy overload and such.
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

You should really quit thinking for yourself and go back to accepting whatever you read in the paper. <deep purple>

[Tatanka]

Article in the fishwrap today casually mentions that a survey of local high schoolers shows that NDSU is the school of choice 4-1 over un-. Almost half of those surveyed that indicated where they plan to go to college said NDSU, almost more than the next six choices combined. This train ain't stopping folks.
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

[THEsocalledfan]

Article in the fishwrap today casually mentions that a survey of local high schoolers shows that NDSU is the school of choice 4-1 over un-. Almost half of those surveyed that indicated where they plan to go to college said NDSU, almost more than the next six choices combined. This train ain't stopping folks.
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

Yep, D1 hockey is a bigger deal than NDSU football....[deep purple] And if folks think football has nothing to do with this, I have a bridge to sell you in San Fran called the Golden Gate.

[IzzyFlexion]

It's going to get a hell of a lot bigger. *

*TNWYWS (that's not what your wife said)

[1998braves64]

Yep, D1 hockey is a bigger deal than NDSU football....[deep purple] And if folks think football has nothing to do with this, I have a bridge to sell you in San Fran called the Golden Gate.


I will not say it has nothing to do with it but some of it is academic as well no? NDSU has become a very well known acceptable diploma for graduates.

[NDSUstudent]

I will not say it has nothing to do with it but some of it is academic as well no? NDSU has become a very well known acceptable diploma for graduates.

Some of it is also location, Fargo is an attractive place to live and go to school. Especially in comparison to Grand Forks.

[Hammersmith]

I will not say it has nothing to do with it but some of it is academic as well no? NDSU has become a very well known acceptable diploma for graduates.

Both are true. Things like football and basketball success get students outside the area to look into NDSU. The academic programs get them to apply and enroll.

Locally, the athletic success is a huge factor. Kids grow up being Bison fans. For the majority of them, they never seriously consider going to a different school.

[1998braves64]

Both are true. Things like football and basketball success get students outside the area to look into NDSU. The academic programs get them to apply and enroll.

Locally, the athletic success is a huge factor. Kids grow up being Bison fans. For the majority of them, they never seriously consider going to a different school.


Agreed along with NDSU student's take. To credit a lot of the enrollment gains to football (and bball) success is a bit short sighted. If it is just "awareness" I could agree with athletics playing a large role in that.

[El_Chapo]

"That may be due to NDSU’s move to the NCAA Division I for sports, and the national notoriety that’s followed the success of the university’s football and basketball programs, said North High Principal Andy Dahlen."<<< oh really UND GRADUATE?? haha

[aces1180]

"That may be due to NDSU’s move to the NCAA Division I for sports, and the national notoriety that’s followed the success of the university’s football and basketball programs, said North High Principal Andy Dahlen."<<< oh really UND GRADUATE?? haha

Um, I think his allegiance to UN_ kind of dwindled when his girls committed to play DI basketball at NDSU...

[perthbison]

Um, I think his allegiance to UN_ kind of dwindled when his girls committed to play DI basketball at NDSU...or you could surmise that he was once lost, but now is found...........or he was dead but now he is alive

[coldspot]

Um, I think his allegiance to UN_ kind of dwindled when his girls committed to play DI basketball at NDSU...

no, he's still a knob gobbler for teh undies

[aces1180]

no, he's still a knob gobbler for teh undies

Must suck for him then, working about three blocks from greatness.

[tony]

Will we ever see an article that shows enrollment figures along with the average ACT scores and GPAs of incoming freshmen for both NDSU and UND?

[Tatanka]

Will we ever see an article that shows enrollment figures along with the average ACT scores and GPAs of incoming freshmen for both NDSU and UND?


An apples to apples comparison? With real data? Why, that might actually take some journalistic skill. I'm going to go ahead with "no".

[StL Bison Fan]

Will we ever see an article that shows enrollment figures along with the average ACT scores and GPAs of incoming freshmen for both NDSU and UND?

I'll have what you're smokin'.

[Da Bison]

I'll have what you're smokin'.
Hmmm........ don't State employees have to pass a drug test? :cool:

[StL Bison Fan]

Hmmm........ don't State employees have to pass a drug test? :cool:

Some do. .

[tony]

Story on enrollment from the Spectrum. http://ndsuspectrum.com/student-enrollment-records-highest-number/

Nice infographic.

[Tatanka]

Story on enrollment from the Spectrum. http://ndsuspectrum.com/student-enrollment-records-highest-number/

Nice infographic.

The Forum should go and take notes.

[tony]

The Forum should go and take notes.

Maybe they have; there's at least one typo. :)

That said, content-wise, the Forum/Herald/Tribune could definitely use this as a benchmark for how to provide useful information instead of just reprinting press releases.

[Tatanka]

Maybe they have; there's at least one typo.

Noted. :rofl:

[StL Bison Fan]

Short, sweet, and is easy to understand. Students are not jaded by the real world. I read the spectrum every week.
I like the reasons students are coming to NDSU.

[JMB]

Story on enrollment from the Spectrum. http://ndsuspectrum.com/student-enrollment-records-highest-number/

Nice infographic.

One of the obvious questions North Dakota needs to answer about the growth of NDSU (and likely UND) is around investing and growing schools that have more Minnesota kids than North Dakota kids. There are legitimate points on either side. (Personally I thought it was great because I was one of those Minnesota NDSU students.)

[bri-dog]

Will we ever see an article that shows enrollment figures along with the average ACT scores and GPAs of incoming freshmen for both NDSU and UND?

As soon as uN_'s scores are higher...








...so, no.

[Tatanka]

One of the obvious questions North Dakota needs to answer about the growth of NDSU (and likely UND) is around investing and growing schools that have more Minnesota kids than North Dakota kids. There are legitimate points on either side. (Personally I thought it was great because I was one of those Minnesota NDSU students.)

If the students are living in and contributing to the local economy in ND while furthering their education, then great! That's positive ROI. Also, if you're looking to grow the state's population base your best bet is to start with neighboring states, and educated young people. Win, win, win. In the case of the online-only out-of-state student, well, I'd love to see how that benefits anyone from ND who is subsidizing said education.

[JMB]

If the students are living in and contributing to the local economy in ND while furthering their education, then great! That's positive ROI. Also, if you're looking to grow the state's population base your best bet is to start with neighboring states, and educated young people. Win, win, win. In the case of the online-only out-of-state student, well, I'd love to see how that benefits anyone from ND who is subsidizing said education.

I don't disagree with you. I think it is a good way to bring in educated people and try to get them to stay. The other trick is having an economy that has positions to hire the engineers and other types you are graduating. That was an issue when I graduated in 1999 (it may be less so now that the oil industry has picked up). -- On a side note I always thought it was an opportunity for Fargo and North Dakota to do a better job developing a manufacturing base. Fargo especially never seemed to have a lot of manufacturing companies.

[Bison bison]

Fargo especially never seemed to have a lot of manufacturing companies.


Relative to where?

[JMB]

Relative to where?

Iowa for instance... Hell every city in Iowa seems to have some manufacturing company chugging out something or another. Heck go to little Brookings South Dakota and there are 4 pretty decent sized manufacturing facilities in that town between Daktronics, Larson Storm Doors, 3M and the playground equipment place on the west side of town.

[Hammersmith]

If you want to dig into the data, you can check out the raw numbers in a way far more detailed than any newspaper will put together:

NDSU: http://www.ndsu.edu/oira/facts_and_figures/#c39120

UND: http://und.edu/research/institutional-research/enrollment-report.cfm
(then select 'Fall Semester 2014' from the drop down menu on the upper right)

[NDSU1980]

So has anyone actually figured out what UN_ has for a head count? I never did get an answer to my e mail from the broad that wrote the story.

[reformedUNDfan]

Will we ever see an article that shows enrollment figures along with the average ACT scores and GPAs of incoming freshmen for both NDSU and UND?

I'd love to see the last few years of data for this. 24.02 act score for NDSU is getting to be pretty impressive, what was it last year?

[Bison bison]

So has anyone actually figured out what UN_ has for a head count? I never did get an answer to my e mail from the broad that wrote the story.

14,906. More than 4,000 part timers. Almost 3,000 distance ed only. 12,400 FTEs.

NDSU: 14,747. 1,700 part timers. Just over 1,000 distance ed only. 12,934 FTEs.

[Tatanka]

14,609. More than 4,000 part timers. Almost 3,000 distance ed only. 12,400 FTEs.

So, over 20% don't ever step foot on campus? Nice.

[Bison bison]

The nice thing is that the new funding formula takes this into account.

[Tatanka]

The nice thing is that the new funding formula takes this into account.

Indeed, but what about capital projects? They're still going to need a bunch of new buildings to house all the.... um.... yeah.

[MAKBison]

You discount that the online learner is more profitable for the university which allows them to spend $$$ elsewhere. I can tell with 100 certainty that there is a program at NDSU that is able to fund (provide stipend) to a traditional grad student thanks to $$ $ made with their online courses.


If the students are living in and contributing to the local economy in ND while furthering their education, then great! That's positive ROI. Also, if you're looking to grow the state's population base your best bet is to start with neighboring states, and educated young people. Win, win, win. In the case of the online-only out-of-state student, well, I'd love to see how that benefits anyone from ND who is subsidizing said education.

[Tatanka]

You discount that the online learner is more profitable for the university which allows them to spend $$$ elsewhere. I can tell with 100 certainty that there is a program at NDSU that is able to fund (provide stipend) to a traditional grad student thanks to $$ $ made with their online courses.

No, I'm not looking at profitability. I'm looking at ROI for the ND taxpayer.

UN- has historically been funded at a significantly higher amount per capita than NDSU. Couple that with the 20+% that are, as you correctly state, more profitable (and at whose expense???), and that just solidifies the notion that NDSU is giving the state more bang for its buck.

I'm glad to see that the new funding formula takes this into account.

[Hammersmith]

The nice thing is that the new funding formula takes this into account.

You are assuming the SBHE/Legislature will follow the new funding formula.

[tony]

So, over 20% don't ever step foot on campus? Nice.

If I'm reading stuff correctly, UND is counting 2400+ students who never set foot in North Dakota (i.e. they're out-of-state, distance-learning-only.)

[Tatanka]

You are assuming the SBHE/Legislature will follow the new funding formula.

also true.

[56BISON73]

also true.

So they get money for students who never set foot on campus?

[Tatanka]

So they get money for students who never set foot on campus?

Indeed! And they also get money for infrastructure and buildings to.... hey wait a minute.

So, yes, the numbers you've been hearing about that suggest that UN- is bigger than NDSU, etc., is all technically correct, but factually incomplete. They've been reporting enrollment numbers with part time students and online only students, and the queen mother of all jackpots funding wise, the part time online only student. Without of course making it obvious as to what those numbers really mean. Legislators and the uninformed and the queen mother of all jackpots for grand forks, the uninformed legislators, hear the big number and assume that they need to send more money. Thankfully, someone pulled the sheets back and discovered the big wet spot.

The new funding formula is supposed to at least partially correct the issue. Note the word "new". If you think that implies that the old formula was, shall we say, blind to this whole situation, why, you'd be dead nuts on.

[Hammersmith]

So now UND's headcount is 14,906? What happened to that supposed 6% drop the GFH was reporting? I also can't get the supposed 2 student drop in freshmen. Last year's class was 1908; this year is 1807 according to the data on page 145-6. But the date on the top of each page says the report was compiled on Sept 23, so this can't be the first-day totals. I don't know what the heck is going on.

At least NDSU's data matches with their press release.

[Tatanka]

So now UND's headcount is 14,906? What happened to that supposed 6% drop the GFH was reporting? I also can't get the supposed 2 student drop in freshmen. Last year's class was 1908; this year is 1807 according to the data on page 145-6. But the date on the top of each page says the report was compiled on Sept 23, so this can't be the first-day totals. I don't know what the heck is going on.

At least NDSU's data matches with their press release.

You'll have to excuse them. They only had a couple days to throw together their propaganda. It's not like most of the people reading the Herald's copy of the press release are going to actually fact-check.

[Hammersmith]

Okay, found the freshman data on another page. The closest thing I can find so far to match the 6% in the GFH article is that UND enrollment actually dropped by 1.6%. Could she be that incompetent? That seems too far fetched even for UND & the GFH.

I guess the takeaway is that UND maintains its top spot in overall headcount, while NDSU maintains its top spot in just about every category that actually matters.

[Tatanka]

Okay, found the freshman data on another page. The closest thing I can find so far to match the 6% in the GFH article is that UND enrollment actually dropped by 1.6%. Could she be that incompetent? That seems too far fetched even for UND & the GFH.

I guess the takeaway is that UND maintains its top spot in overall headcount, while NDSU maintains its top spot in just about every category that actually matters.
... except funding.

[Bison bison]

Here's the argument.

Online enrollment is high for UND - because it's such a good school, but the infrastructure lags. If they got $100 million for building X these students would be on campus (forget that their taking a course in aviation from their mom's basement in Winston-Salem).

The other thing is that part-time online students have much lower graduation rates - which is also part of the new funding formula.

[tony]

Here's the argument.

Online enrollment is high for UND - because it's such a good school, but the infrastructure lags. If they got $100 million for building X these students would be on campus (forget that their taking a course in aviation from their mom's basement in Winston-Salem).

The other thing is that part-time online students have much lower graduation rates - which is also part of the new funding formula.

The problem I have with the Legislature is that they are so damn inconsistent. All Skarphol does is bitch about spending at NDSU while basically gold-plating Williston State. Minnesota kids were always viewed as a positive by the Legislature until NDSU got more than UND. Increasing enrollment was viewed as good until NDSU got bigger than UND. That list just goes on and on.

If the Legislature wants to lead higher ed, they need to be consistent and clear about what they want instead of developing metrics after the fact.

The Legislature's anger about Minnesota kids is about the dumbest thing I've ever witnessed. There is nothing but positives there. North Dakota has a huge labor shortage and NDSU is helping bring young people to the state. Meanwhile, every other school in the state is offering credits to a vast number of students who never step foot in the state and the Legislature and media guys in the bullly pulpits aren't saying a peep about it? It simply boggles the mind.

Here's how the Legislature runs higher ed: They look for some area of data where NDSU stands out. Then they say that whatever that is bad.

SIXTEEN PERCENT OF THE STUDENTS IN UND'S HEADCOUNT DO NOT SET FOOT IN NORTH DAKOTA. HELL, THEY HAVE TWO DISTANCE LEARNERS WHO ARE CLASSIFIED AS "LOCATION UNKNOWN." And, as schools in the University go, UND is probably the second-least reliant on this type of student to pump up headcounts.

Example: Bismarck State just got some hugely expensive equipment for their Nuclear Tech program when every single student in that program is an out-of-state distance learner. Who the hell is going to be using that piece of equipment? Do they hook it up to the internet? And if so, why does it need to be in North Dakota? Moreover, why do you need a physical piece of equipment at all rather than a simulator?

[HerdBot]

Why don't we push the online classes more? It's obviously the future.

[StL Bison Fan]

The problem I have with the Legislature is that they are so damn inconsistent. All Skarphol does is bitch about spending at NDSU while basically gold-plating Williston State. Minnesota kids were always viewed as a positive by the Legislature until NDSU got more than UND. Increasing enrollment was viewed as good until NDSU got bigger than UND. That list just goes on and on.

If the Legislature wants to lead higher ed, they need to be consistent and clear about what they want instead of developing metrics after the fact.

The Legislature's anger about Minnesota kids is about the dumbest thing I've ever witnessed. There is nothing but positives there. North Dakota has a huge labor shortage and NDSU is helping bring young people to the state. Meanwhile, every other school in the state is offering credits to a vast number of students who never step foot in the state and the Legislature and media guys in the bullly pulpits aren't saying a peep about it? It simply boggles the mind.

Here's how the Legislature runs higher ed: They look for some area of data where NDSU stands out. Then they say that whatever that is bad.

SIXTEEN PERCENT OF THE STUDENTS IN UND'S HEADCOUNT DO NOT SET FOOT IN NORTH DAKOTA. HELL, THEY HAVE TWO DISTANCE LEARNERS WHO ARE CLASSIFIED AS "LOCATION UNKNOWN." And, as schools in the University go, UND is probably the second-least reliant on this type of student to pump up headcounts.

Example: Bismarck State just got some hugely expensive equipment for their Nuclear Tech program when every single student in that program is an out-of-state distance learner. Who the hell is going to be using that piece of equipment? Do they hook it up to the internet? And if so, why does it need to be in North Dakota? Moreover, why do you need a physical piece of equipment at all rather than a simulator?

Unfortunately, I have found that people usually get the government they deserve. Complain at the bar about government, then vote them in cause they're my neighbor, they're nice, or any other lame excuse.

[Hammersmith]

The problem I have with the Legislature is that they are so damn inconsistent. All Skarphol does is bitch about spending at NDSU while basically gold-plating Williston State. Minnesota kids were always viewed as a positive by the Legislature until NDSU got more than UND. Increasing enrollment was viewed as good until NDSU got bigger than UND. That list just goes on and on.

If the Legislature wants to lead higher ed, they need to be consistent and clear about what they want instead of developing metrics after the fact.

The Legislature's anger about Minnesota kids is about the dumbest thing I've ever witnessed. There is nothing but positives there. North Dakota has a huge labor shortage and NDSU is helping bring young people to the state. Meanwhile, every other school in the state is offering credits to a vast number of students who never step foot in the state and the Legislature and media guys in the bullly pulpits aren't saying a peep about it? It simply boggles the mind.

Here's how the Legislature runs higher ed: They look for some area of data where NDSU stands out. Then they say that whatever that is bad.

SIXTEEN PERCENT OF THE STUDENTS IN UND'S HEADCOUNT DO NOT SET FOOT IN NORTH DAKOTA. HELL, THEY HAVE TWO DISTANCE LEARNERS WHO ARE CLASSIFIED AS "LOCATION UNKNOWN." And, as schools in the University go, UND is probably the second-least reliant on this type of student to pump up headcounts.

Example: Bismarck State just got some hugely expensive equipment for their Nuclear Tech program when every single student in that program is an out-of-state distance learner. Who the hell is going to be using that piece of equipment? Do they hook it up to the internet? And if so, why does it need to be in North Dakota? Moreover, why do you need a physical piece of equipment at all rather than a simulator?

Why I've got doubts this new funding formula will actually be implemented the way it's supposed to be. If the numbers show them something they don't want see, they'll ignore the formula until they can tweak it enough to get it to support the status quo. Guess that's the cynic in me. (aka NDB2)

[Bison bison]

I think they'll keep the formula in place for at least a decade, but continue to divvy out additional funds (both capital and operating) to 'select' institutions.

[tony]

I think they'll keep the formula in place for at least a decade, but continue to divvy out additional funds (both capital and operating) to 'select' institutions.

Cripes, they already set up the formula so that UND gets 50% more per credit than NDSU. It makes me wonder if they get somebody from out-of-state to take an online class through the medical school... does that credit still get weighted at 4000% of, say, an engineering credit at NDSU? (Note: It actually might be 40000% - I couldn't find the formula.)

[Bison bison]

Interesting reading.

http://www.ndus.edu/uploads/resources/4583/governors-funding-model.pdf

[tony]

Interesting reading.

http://www.ndus.edu/uploads/resources/4583/governors-funding-model.pdf

Yeah, it doesn't show the formula though.

Here's what it does show. Exhibit #1:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3926/15215404329_07b03fbafe_o.png

[tony]

OK, based on Figure 1 above that shows that NDSU students completed 45,000 more credit hours more than UND students, then NDSU should get more funding, right? I mean, since funding is based on per credit funding.

[tony]

Oh, but wait, the Legislature stepped in and made sure that NDSU and UND didn't get the same funding per credit hour completed. In fact, they made it so NDSU got $.50 less per credit because they could.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3853/15215718307_699e82f22b_z.jpg

But that's not such a big deal. It cost NDSU about $450,000. Apparently Williston's cost of living increase was 750% more than Fargo's, btw.

[tony]

So, anyway, NDSU students completed 694,000 credit hours compared to UND's 649,000. So the funding should should be $49,000,000 for NDSU (694,000 x $70.75) and $46,241,000 for UND (649,000 x $71.25.)

But, wait, each one of those credit hours gets multiplied based on what kind of credit is completed so you end up with this:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3930/15379202196_7a7bf287b9_o.png

[Tatanka]

UN- simply does less with more.
Sent from somewhere using my Windows Phone.

[tony]

So somehow, NDSU and UND are supposed to get the same dollars per credit hour but each credit is weighted so that UND credits, on average, count for 50% more than NDSU's.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3874/15379468006_fe95ae89a4.jpg

53.5% more, actually.

[tony]

The other side of the coin is the infrastructure because there is no distinction made between credit hours earned in a building versus credits earned online. Which is crazy.

The ratio is square feet per credit hour completed.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2947/15215726767_f6dd6fd1d8_o.png

I think that they use this to "Oh, you have a lot of buildings. Guess you need more funding." So every time the Legislature builds something new on a campus, it is not a one-time expenditure because they then fork over more money per credit. And NDSU is being penalized on both ends. On one end, NDSU doesn't get the infrastructure. On the other end, NDSU gets less money per credit because they don't get the infrastructure. And, of course, there is the whole question, "Why do all these University of Phoenix wannabes need all that infrastructure in the first place?"

[THEsocalledfan]

Do those UND number count the medical school? That would partly explain it.

[MAKBison]

you could argue that the ROi is awash as one pays for the other. That Grad student whose stipend is being paid for due to profitability is on campus.

I agree with you on the other issues...just saying the whole online thing is not so bad.


No, I'm not looking at profitability. I'm looking at ROI for the ND taxpayer.

UN- has historically been funded at a significantly higher amount per capita than NDSU. Couple that with the 20+% that are, as you correctly state, more profitable (and at whose expense???), and that just solidifies the notion that NDSU is giving the state more bang for its buck.

I'm glad to see that the new funding formula takes this into account.

[Tatanka]

you could argue that the ROi is awash as one pays for the other. That Grad student whose stipend is being paid for due to profitability is on campus.

I agree with you on the other issues...just saying the whole online thing is not so bad.

Oh, I'm not arguing that the online thing is all bad. I just think it's bad if it's made out to be as an equal to an on-premises student. Because it's not, in a lot of ways.

[Tatanka]

Kudos to tony in this thread by the way. Much truth being exposed. Oh, if only there was a journalist worth a mosquito's shit, this would be public knowledge. Wonder if it's not time for a letter to the editor campaign?

[HerdBot]

These are alarming numbers. That's what happens when a bunch of UND politicians rig the system. Of course the forum won't cover it...

[Hammersmith]

The other side of the coin is the infrastructure because there is no distinction made between credit hours earned in a building versus credits earned online. Which is crazy.

The ratio is square feet per credit hour completed.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2947/15215726767_f6dd6fd1d8_o.png

I think that they use this to "Oh, you have a lot of buildings. Guess you need more funding." So every time the Legislature builds something new on a campus, it is not a one-time expenditure because they then fork over more money per credit. And NDSU is being penalized on both ends. On one end, NDSU doesn't get the infrastructure. On the other end, NDSU gets less money per credit because they don't get the infrastructure. And, of course, there is the whole question, "Why do all these University of Phoenix wannabes need all that infrastructure in the first place?"

Notice that there are only two categories for the square footage calculation. Either you are under 5.00 and get no adjustment, or you are 5.00 and above and one of the numbers is multiplied by 1.8. Only NDSCS falls into the adjusted calculation. Same thing goes for the Credit Completion Factor. The fewer credits you give, the more money you get(due to inefficiencies of small scale). DCB & WSC get multiplied by 1.75. MaSU get multiplied by 1.65, VCSU gets multiplied by 1.50, LRSC gets multiplied by 1.45, and all other colleges are unadjusted(mult by 1.0).

But there is some major crap going on behind the scenes. All the courses are supposed to get the same funding per credit except for certain high-cost departments. They are: (which university you would think gets more money in this category)

Agriculture (NDSU)
Architecture (NDSU)
Aviation (UND)
Biological/Physical Science (little more UND)
Business (maybe little more UND)
Career/Tech Instruction (neither)
Education
Engineering (NDSU)
Health Sciences (UND)
Legal Studies (UND)
Remedial

So health sciences and legal studies have been rigged to give massive amounts of money to UND for a small number of credits. An MD credit gets 38 times more money than a standard 100/200-level credit and 16 times more than 300/400-level credit. Law school credits get 14 times and 7 times more respectively. I also think they're cooking the books with the grad school. Why the heck does education get extra funds per credit? I'm in education and don't see why education credits should get almost twice as much money per credit as their general counterparts. But I think a big chunk of UND's grad school is actually K12 teachers who need a course every couple years to maintain their teaching degree. So UND gets extra money for 1500 students(K12 teachers) each taking one course per year.

There's something rotten in the state of Denmark. NDSU is getting 3.07 SCH units per credit according to this funding formula, while UND is getting 4.48 SCH units. That results in a difference of 923,047 SCH units. And then UND gets $0.50 more per unit on top of that. So UND ends up getting $66,850,793 more than NDSU for the next biennium. Using the new formula, NDSU will get $10.3 million more than the last biennium, but UND will be getting $13.3 million more. So the gap gets wider instead of shrinking. Shocking.

And the formula runs over four years behind. Your funding for the next two years is based on credits earned three and four years ago. So part of the money that will fund schools in the spring of 2017 will be based on credits earned in the fall of 2011. Yeah, that makes sense.

[THEsocalledfan]

What is NDSU's pharmacy college ratio? That is the only decent comparison to med/law at UN_.

[Hammersmith]

What is NDSU's pharmacy college ratio? That is the only decent comparison to med/law at UN_.

Pharmacy would use the same ratios as UND's med school(both are health sciences) with the exception of the MD courses.

And the PharmD program is considered Prof(x9), not Grad(x12) or MD(x38).


1/200 3/400 Prof Grad MD
Base 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0
Legal 3.5 7.0 10.5 14.0
Health 3.0 6.0 9.0 12.0 38.0

Engineer 2.5 5.0 7.5 10.0
Remedial 2.3
VoTech 2.0
Ag 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Aviat 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Bio/Phys 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Business 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Ed 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Arch 1.8 3.6 5.4 7.2

edit: added the rest in order of modifier

[Hammersmith]

You are just not going to get me to believe it costs the same amount to teach an education course as it does an agriculture, aviation, or hard science course.

[344Johnson]

This is all very silly holy. Funding should be much closer than this.

[No_Skill]

Does it cost that much more to educate lawyers and doctors? This would be easier to swallow if they could prove the higher funding is warranted.

[tony]

Here's one problem with ignoring the impact of out-of-state distance education: It will lead to credit mining. If you can get 3800% more for an MD credit, wouldn't you be providing an incentive for schools to push those credits even if the person earning the credits was never, ever, not in a million years, going to set foot in North Dakota and even if it has nothing to do with an institution's mission? It's a gold mine.

Another problem is that it leads to improper allocation of investment dollars for infrastructure. The amount invested in infrastructure currently has no earthly connection to the number of students on campus. Does Williston State really need two $11 million dorms with underground parking for their on-campus student body when they could all fit into a freshman Calc class at NDSU? I suspect that if we looked at who was actually living in these dorms we'd find an extremely high percentage of hockey players, btw.

[Hammersmith]

Here's one problem with ignoring the impact of out-of-state distance education: It will lead to credit mining. If you can get 3800% more for an MD credit, wouldn't you be providing an incentive for schools to push those credits even if the person earning the credits was never, ever, not in a million years, going to set foot in North Dakota and even if it has nothing to do with an institution's mission? It's a gold mine.

Another problem is that it leads to improper allocation of investment dollars for infrastructure. The amount invested in infrastructure currently has no earthly connection to the number of students on campus. Does Williston State really need two $11 million dorms with underground parking for their on-campus student body when they could all fit into a freshman Calc class at NDSU? I suspect that if we looked at who was actually living in these dorms we'd find an extremely high percentage of hockey players, btw.

There's also something buried in there that's going to lead to grade inflation. The formula doesn't pay for failed or dropped classes. So will there be a push to make sure every student passes every class? No matter if they do the work or not? It shouldn't happen, but will it?

[Tatanka]

There's also something buried in there that's going to lead to grade inflation. The formula doesn't pay for failed or dropped classes. So will there be a push to make sure every student passes every class? No matter if they do the work or not? It shouldn't happen, but will it?


Don't be silly. UN- would never intentionally falsify data to gain more state funding.

[Answer Guy]

So somehow, NDSU and UND are supposed to get the same dollars per credit hour but each credit is weighted so that UND credits, on average, count for 50% more than NDSU's.

53.5% more, actually.

UND has proposed setting up a Department of Funding Fairness. We're gonna need about $20 million for a building to get it started.

[THEsocalledfan]

Pharmacy would use the same ratios as UND's med school(both are health sciences) with the exception of the MD courses.

And the PharmD program is considered Prof(x9), not Grad(x12) or MD(x38).


1/200 3/400 Prof Grad MD
Base 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0
Legal 3.5 7.0 10.5 14.0
Health 3.0 6.0 9.0 12.0 38.0

Engineer 2.5 5.0 7.5 10.0
Remedial 2.3
VoTech 2.0
Ag 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Aviat 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Bio/Phys 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Business 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Ed 1.9 3.8 5.7 7.6
Arch 1.8 3.6 5.4 7.2

edit: added the rest in order of modifier

So, med school gets 4 times the funding per credit when compared to pharmD classes? Seems a bit high, to me as a general practice MD likely makes less than double a trained pharmD. Problem is specialists and can't speak to how many they pay out of UN_ to help in education.

I am sure I am over simplifying this. To be clear, however, yes, professional schools do need substantially higher funding. The faculty are much more expensive and they are always at risk of being poached by other colleges and private practice. Big time research dollars flow through those schools so competition is intense for the established academics with their RO1's and minions. (Saw it first hand at U of M as a faculty.) You can't ignore this. I left the U of M partly due to Sanford giving me a 25% raise with a job that was less intense than being clinical faculty......

So, in short, yes, much higher funding is completely justified; I am just not sure the mix is right.

[bisonmike2]

UND has proposed setting up a Department of Funding Fairness. We're gonna need about $20 million for a building to get it started.

Hmmm. Could be a joke. But the font isn't purple so it could be real. Neither would surprise me.

[No_Skill]

UND has proposed setting up a Department of Funding Fairness. We're gonna need about $20 million for a building to get it started.

Make jokes Mr. Joke Maker.

You'll get $30 million and like it.

[KilldeerBison]

UND has proposed setting up a Department of Coaches That Hit & Run While Driving Drunk Without Licenses. We're gonna need about $20 million for a building to get it started.

Sounds believable.

[El_Chapo]

We'll. let's start the NDSU "campaign of enlightenment"

Hammer - tony. Put together bullet points, then let us C students post these all over the place, email media outlets, email legislatures , post on Facebook Twitter. Let's make sure the public of North Dakota sees this disparity!

Thanks

[SDbison]

Iowa for instance... Hell every city in Iowa seems to have some manufacturing company chugging out something or another. Heck go to little Brookings South Dakota and there are 4 pretty decent sized manufacturing facilities in that town between Daktronics, Larson Storm Doors, 3M and the playground equipment place on the west side of town. Fargo kicks ass for manufacturing when compared to Sioux Falls..........but then Brookings has far more manufacturing jobs than Sioux Falls.

[reformedUNDfan]

Agriculture (NDSU)
Architecture (NDSU)
Aviation (UND)
Biological/Physical Science (little more UND)
Business (maybe little more UND)
Career/Tech Instruction (neither)
Education
Engineering (NDSU)
Health Sciences (UND)
Legal Studies (UND)
Remedial

the bolded should not be given adjusted funding. I have no idea what a business school would need extra money for. You need:
1) a room
2) someone to talk in front of class

[bisonaudit]

the bolded should not be given adjusted funding. I have no idea what a business school would need extra money for. You need:
1) a room
2) someone to talk in front of class

The people you want talking in front of those classes aren't cheap for Aviation, Business or Law.

As it relates specifically to business:

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/09/neal_stephenson_innovation_starvation_we_have_grea t_ideas_for_the_future.html

[reformedUNDfan]

The people you want talking in front of those classes aren't cheap for Aviation, Business or Law.

As it relates specifically to business:

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/09/neal_stephenson_innovation_starvation_we_have_grea t_ideas_for_the_future.html

aviation is probably the best example of program that shouldn't be getting extra money. It's a niche program that doesn't really benefit the state at all that is simultaneously fantastically expensive.

Business is certainly less expensive to run than engineering or any of the hard sciences.

[JMB]

Don't be silly. UN- would never intentionally falsify data to gain more state funding.

Just as a warning to everyone on Bisonville. I responded to one of those Nigerian Prince Phishing emails and got enrolled in an online class at UND.

[El_Chapo]

How does law or medicine help the state when they can't pass the bar and there's already enough lawyers in the state. (Oh they move away). Medicine as well the doctors get to a town hospital and stay there for 30-40 years...the rest go out of state. Aviation, there can only be so many sky-taxi drivers & they are out of state

[bisonaudit]

Here's one problem with ignoring the impact of out-of-state distance education: It will lead to credit mining. If you can get 3800% more for an MD credit, wouldn't you be providing an incentive for schools to push those credits even if the person earning the credits was never, ever, not in a million years, going to set foot in North Dakota and even if it has nothing to do with an institution's mission? It's a gold mine.

Another problem is that it leads to improper allocation of investment dollars for infrastructure. The amount invested in infrastructure currently has no earthly connection to the number of students on campus. Does Williston State really need two $11 million dorms with underground parking for their on-campus student body when they could all fit into a freshman Calc class at NDSU? I suspect that if we looked at who was actually living in these dorms we'd find an extremely high percentage of hockey players, btw.

KU has this wired. As long at the dorm is less than half athletes you're good to go.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/09/30/kansas-is-building-a-luxurious-15-million-apartment-building-for-its-basketball-team/

20 lucky undergrads a year are going to get a golden ticket from Willy Wonka in their housing notices.

[MAKBison]

Call the whistle blower hot line channel 4 news :-)
These are alarming numbers. That's what happens when a bunch of UND politicians rig the system. Of course the forum won't cover it...

[MAKBison]

I think its set up on a drop dead date or census date....I wanna say if a student stays at least 3 weeks they are counted 100%


I wonder what the student debt to employment ratio is for these programs getting extra $$$$ That is where the Dept of Ed is focusing.


There's also something buried in there that's going to lead to grade inflation. The formula doesn't pay for failed or dropped classes. So will there be a push to make sure every student passes every class? No matter if they do the work or not? It shouldn't happen, but will it?

[MAKBison]

Because the Prof salaries are are a lot higher. its based on what they could make oustside the CR.


the bolded should not be given adjusted funding. I have no idea what a business school would need extra money for. You need:
1) a room
2) someone to talk in front of class

[tony]

KU has this wired. As long at the dorm is less than half athletes you're good to go.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/09/30/kansas-is-building-a-luxurious-15-million-apartment-building-for-its-basketball-team/

20 lucky undergrads a year are going to get a golden ticket from Willy Wonka in their housing notices.

I'm not sure that I'm being fair about Williston State's apartments. They probably need housing for the people who work there.

One thing is pretty certain: They aren't subject to NCAA rules.

[reformedUNDfan]

Because the Prof salaries are are a lot higher. its based on what they could make oustside the CR.

they're cheaper than the rest of the list, and generally teach large lectures.

[NDSU92]

http://www.inforum.com/content/nd-higher-ed-board-mull-strategic-plan-pulling-back-shirvani-era-admission-proposal-setting

Acticle from the Foolum on where colleges stand in comparison to Shirvani's "Pathways" standards.
At NDSU and UND, the new plan would require students to have a 2.75 GPA, 22 ACT and 13 high school core courses (14 in 2017, 15 in 2018). Current guidelines recommend a 2.5 GPA, 21 ACT and 13 core courses, according to the schools’ websites.

The new recommendations note that a higher GPA could counter a lower test score, for example: 3.50 GPA with 18 ACT.

Skogen said a student without those scores could still apply, though, and be admitted after the admissions office considered other factors.

The Pathways plan used a formula to set admission standards, which has since been discarded. Under Pathways, 41 percent of NDSU’s 2013 freshmen class would not have been admitted, along with 46 percent of UND’s freshmen.

[Hammersmith]

What a shocker. Shirvani's plan basically gutted to meaninglessness.*


*OMG, spellchecker actually tells me meaninglessness is a real word. Gotta love the English language.

[344Johnson]

What a shocker. Shirvani's plan basically gutted to meaninglessness.*


*OMG, spellchecker actually tells me meaninglessness is a real word. Gotta love the English language.

For fun long words, go to the Germans.

[El_Chapo]

so how are those bullet points coming along hammer/tony for us "minions" to email out to media type's.

thanks. lets dispell the myth's.

[Tatanka]

http://www.inforum.com/content/nd-higher-ed-board-mull-strategic-plan-pulling-back-shirvani-era-admission-proposal-setting

Acticle from the Foolum on where colleges stand in comparison to Shirvani's "Pathways" standards.

So wait, the "higher" admissions standards touted by un- as being a reason for lower enrollment is, hang on, catching my breath, the same at NDSU? Hmmmmmmmm. Shocker right there.

And 46% of un- freshmen wouldn't have made the cut? Huh. Shocker again. Sad that 41% of NDSU's freshmen wouldn't have made the cut...

No wonder un- requires more funding. It simply takes a lot more money to educate their students.

[HerdBot]

So wait, the "higher" admissions standards touted by un- as being a reason for lower enrollment is, hang on, catching my breath, the same at NDSU? Hmmmmmmmm. Shocker right there.

And 46% of un- freshmen wouldn't have made the cut? Huh. Shocker again. Sad that 41% of NDSU's freshmen wouldn't have made the cut...

No wonder un- requires more funding. It simply takes a lot more money to educate their students.

Yep. Too cheap to pay up so raise the standards. Meanwhile the state has 25K jobs we won't be able to fill and now we will be reducing enrollment and providing less skilled workers. Brilliant plan. Hey but at least the state can pretend they are so fiscally conservative when they have nothing to do with it. Maybe we can let a few more buildings collapse before they care. Meanwhile I saw some politician suggest we give in state people free tuition. How about we fix the problems first

[NDSU92]

So wait, the "higher" admissions standards touted by un- as being a reason for lower enrollment is, hang on, catching my breath, the same at NDSU? Hmmmmmmmm. Shocker right there.

And 46% of un- freshmen wouldn't have made the cut? Huh. Shocker again. Sad that 41% of NDSU's freshmen wouldn't have made the cut...

No wonder un- requires more funding. It simply takes a lot more money to educate their students.

Getting more money definitely helps UND educate their students. Except it sounds like they STILL have a hard time making sure half their law students pass the bar exam and their med school is close to losing accreditation all while getting a 38x funding multiplier. Time to increase their funding again?

[Tatanka]

Getting more money definitely helps UND educate their students. Except it sounds like they STILL have a hard time making sure half their law students pass the bar exam and their med school is close to losing accreditation all while getting a 38x funding multiplier. Time to increase their funding again?


Watch. I bet this is exactly the end result.

[The_Sicatoka]

KU has this wired. As long at the dorm is less than half athletes you're good to go.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/09/30/kansas-is-building-a-luxurious-15-million-apartment-building-for-its-basketball-team/

20 lucky hot, blonde, female, clearly selected at random undergrads a year are going to get a golden ticket from Willy Wonka in their housing notices.

FYP

10 char

[IzzyFlexion]

so how are those bullet points coming along hammer/tony for us "minions" to email out to media types.

thanks. let's misspell teh miths.

I'm sorry dude......no harm meant. Just thought it was funny that the spelling was perfect but the apostrophes weren't. So I reversed the sins.