SI investigative report on OK ST football...

[bisonaudit]

... full of completely unsurprising revelations.

Amaturism is a joke.

[bisonmike2]

if it's true.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/Jason_Whitlock_slams_SI_writer_Thayer_Evans/11-22173

[bisonaudit]

if it's true.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/Jason_Whitlock_slams_SI_writer_Thayer_Evans/11-22173

I don't care if its true. As far as I'm concerned the point isn't whether or how OK ST may or may not have cheated. The point is that the amaturism rules and the NCAA are a total farce. Who give a shit about paying a guy $25,000 when 67 basketball games generate $800 million and 3 football games generate $500 million for the NCAA and its members. It's un-American and it needs to end.

[BadlandsBison]

I don't care if its true. As far as I'm concerned the point isn't whether or how OK ST may or may not have cheated. The point is that the amaturism rules and the NCAA are a total farce. Who give a shit about paying a guy $25,000 when 67 basketball games generate $800 million and 3 football games generate $500 million for the NCAA and its members. It's un-American and it needs to end.

Start a petition and write your local congressman

[bisonmike2]

I don't care if its true. As far as I'm concerned the point isn't whether or how OK ST may or may not have cheated. The point is that the amaturism rules and the NCAA are a total farce. Who give a shit about paying a guy $25,000 when 67 basketball games generate $800 million and 3 football games generate $500 million for the NCAA and its members. It's un-American and it needs to end.


I agree and I think that's a point made in the story I linked. Personally I think the clock is ticking on the NCAA and it's only a matter of time before it gets blown up (figuratively).

[Mayville Bison]

if it's true.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/Jason_Whitlock_slams_SI_writer_Thayer_Evans/11-22173

I'm not sure if I should reply with
A) This guy is so jealous he didn't "break" a story like this and is covering it up by saying it happens everywhere
B) ESPN (Whitlock's employer) is just pushing for a split from the NCAA because the NCAA is the big bad "mafia"
C) Something very personal (ie. Evans slept with his wife, Evans got promoted and Whitlock didn't, etc.)
D) Who cares?
E) Why are we still talking about UN_ in the Football forum?

[bisonmike2]

I'm not sure if I should reply with
A) This guy is so jealous he didn't "break" a story like this and is covering it up by saying it happens everywhere
B) ESPN (Whitlock's employer) is just pushing for a split from the NCAA because the NCAA is the big bad "mafia"
C) Something very personal (ie. Evans slept with his wife, Evans got promoted and Whitlock didn't, etc.)
D) Who cares?
E) Why are we still talking about UN_ in the Football forum?


F) All of the Above

[KSBisonFan]

I'm not sure if I should reply with
A) This guy is so jealous he didn't "break" a story like this and is covering it up by saying it happens everywhere
B) ESPN (Whitlock's employer) is just pushing for a split from the NCAA because the NCAA is the big bad "mafia"
C) Something very personal (ie. Evans slept with his wife, Evans got promoted and Whitlock didn't, etc.)
D) Who cares?
E) Why are we still talking about UN_ in the Football forum?

Whitlock is a raging idiot. He'll add his $.02 into anything if it gets him some exposure and allows him to run his pie hole. Come to think of it, I knew that before reading his spew.

[bisonaudit]

I agree and I think that's a point made in the story I linked. Personally I think the clock is ticking on the NCAA and it's only a matter of time before it gets blown up (figuratively).

Whitlock's shots at the writer are a little over the top but I'm in complete agreement with him on the state of the NCAA and the wrong headedness of this story.

Johnny Football had a shot to be a hero in this nonsense. He could have stood up, given the lie to the whole endevour, and replaced Ed O'Bannon as the face of the resistance.

[bisonaudit]

Yahoo has a story now about improper benefits for 5 SEC players, also completely unsurprising. When are these stories going to stop being about the players and start being about the NCAA and it's stupid rules that make criminals out of kids instead of the cartel exploiting them.

[tony]

Yahoo has a story now about improper benefits for 5 SEC players, also completely unsurprising. When are these stories going to stop being about the players and start being about the NCAA and it's stupid rules that make criminals out of kids instead of the cartel exploiting them.

The only reason that this is coming up is that the TV contracts are so big. If the TV contracts weren't huge, then there would be no talk about exploitation. Yeah, the member schools make buttloads of money of those TV contracts but the member schools also heavily subsidize the operations of the athletic department so it's not like we're talking about a lack of profit-sharing.

If you want full-on capitalism where boosters can hand kids $100k and new cars, then it's time to go the full monte and sever all financial and institutional ties between athletic departments and the public universities that host them. And it's also time to have the IRS crawling up these kids asses because it's one thing to say "It's the NCAA's fault for enforcing the rules that its members created" and it's a whole different animal to not report income for taxation.

If you're going to go the pro route with college athletics, then that should be the end college athletics. Public colleges weren't created to host professional franchises.

[bisonaudit]

The only reason that this is coming up is that the TV contracts are so big. If the TV contracts weren't huge, then there would be no talk about exploitation. Yeah, the member schools make buttloads of money of those TV contracts but the member schools also heavily subsidize the operations of the athletic department so it's not like we're talking about a lack of profit-sharing.

If you want full-on capitalism where boosters can hand kids $100k and new cars, then it's time to go the full monte and sever all financial and institutional ties between athletic departments and the public universities that host them. And it's also time to have the IRS crawling up these kids asses because it's one thing to say "It's the NCAA's fault for enforcing the rules that its members created" and it's a whole different animal to not report income for taxation.

If you're going to go the pro route with college athletics, then that should be the end college athletics. Public colleges weren't created to host professional franchises.

As soon as it's not against the NCAA rules to get paid for your work the IRS issue disappears because there's no longer additional incentives to not report the income.

[Mayville Bison]

As soon as it's not against the NCAA rules to get paid for your work the IRS issue disappears because there's no longer additional incentives to not report the income.

You seriously don't think that change is going to stop more behind the scene "gifts", do you? Even if they are allowed to pay a "student" $xk/year, boosters will still work to get the top recruits to their school. I think Tony's right where if you start going down that slope, you need to turn college football and basketball into a minor league system like baseball has. And if you do that, these sports will lose a lot of the appeal that's currently making them billions of dollars right now.

Something needs to change in the world of major college sports, but I don't know that a workable system has been established that benefits both the "students" and also creates a ton of cash flowing around.

[tony]

As soon as it's not against the NCAA rules to get paid for your work the IRS issue disappears because there's no longer additional incentives to not report the income.

That might makes sense if the IRS reported who pays taxes on what income. Besides, I don't think that citing an NCAA rule is a legal or ethical defense for violating federal law.

Go the professional route and I think that the BCS football players' scholarships should be considered taxable income. Donations to the athletic department should no longer be considered charitable contributions. Athletic departments should also get everything that goes with running a professional franchise: FICA match, medicare match, unemployment insurance, Workers Comp, and a corporate income tax. Moreover, players will end up filing income tax returns in every state they play games in.

[bisonaudit]

You seriously don't think that change is going to stop more behind the scene "gifts", do you? Even if they are allowed to pay a "student" $xk/year, boosters will still work to get the top recruits to their school. I think Tony's right where if you start going down that slope, you need to turn college football and basketball into a minor league system like baseball has. And if you do that, these sports will lose a lot of the appeal that's currently making them billions of dollars right now.

Something needs to change in the world of major college sports, but I don't know that a workable system has been established that benefits both the "students" and also creates a ton of cash flowing around.

I don't think you can argue both the "well the booster are going to keep cheating anyway" line of reasoning and the "it's just going to be minor league, what's the appeal?" line of reasoning at the same time. Pick one. They're mutually exclusive.

As long as we insist that they're students instead of employees, we're never going to get to a viable answer.

All of the pro leagues have salary caps. No one has tried to cheat on player compensation since the Minnesota Timberwolves.

I'm all for going down the slope toward treating these employees better. And I disagree on the booster gifts. Most of them would love to have all of that junk above board. Spin the team off into a for profit corporation owned by the university for a start. Then when T. Boone Picken's isn't getting a tax break for his zillion dollar stadium maybe he'll decide to buy the team from the state of Oklahoma instead. Privatize those assets. What could be more American.

The relationship between the athletic departments and the universities is already just a marketing relationship now. It can continue to be that and the players can get compensated.

[Mayville Bison]

I don't think you can argue both the "well the booster are going to keep cheating anyway" line of reasoning and the "it's just going to be minor league, what's the appeal?" line of reasoning at the same time. Pick one. They're mutually exclusive.

As long as we insist that they're students instead of employees, we're never going to get to a viable answer.

All of the pro leagues have salary caps. No one has tried to cheat on player compensation since the Minnesota Timberwolves.

I'm all for going down the slope toward treating these employees better. And I disagree on the booster gifts. Most of them would love to have all of that junk above board. Spin the team off into a for profit corporation owned by the university for a start. Then when T. Boone Picken's isn't getting a tax break for his zillion dollar stadium maybe he'll decide to buy the team from the state of Oklahoma instead. Privatize those assets. What could be more American.

The relationship between the athletic departments and the universities is already just a marketing relationship now. It can continue to be that and the players can get compensated.

Sure you can do both. Many people simply don't want to believe that college athletes are getting paid because it's against the rules. I was naive at one time, too.

As for the rest, it all depends on how everything is developed and each system has it's flaws. MLB doesn't have a true cap and small market teams have no shot (hopefully the Pirates win this year). NFL is all about spreading the wealth - not likely going to happen here as the big conferences don't want to share as it is and that will only get worse (do you think the SEC wants to share their recruits with the B1G?). NBA is all about expiring contracts, so it might work with the whole eligibility thing, but I don't think you can compare a roster of 12 with 85.

Will something come out that works? I hope so. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy FCS football for what it is and continue to believe that only FBS schools are giving under-the-table gifts.

[bisonaudit]

That might makes sense if the IRS reported who pays taxes on what income. Besides, I don't think that citing an NCAA rule is a legal or ethical defense for violating federal law.

Go the professional route and I think that the BCS football players' scholarships should be considered taxable income. Donations to the athletic department should no longer be considered charitable contributions. Athletic departments should also get everything that goes with running a professional franchise: FICA match, medicare match, unemployment insurance, Workers Comp, and a corporate income tax. Moreover, players will end up filing income tax returns in every state they play games in.

If players are getting paid by boosters or Universities today. They have an IRS problem today. If it weren't against NCAA regulations to pay these guys, their income wouldn't be illicit and there would be no reason to not report it. They'd be employees and they and their employer would be subject to the full suite of reporting requirements that exist for the rest of us already. I'm not sure what the treatment of their scholarship's would be. I don't think academic scholarships are treated as income, but if the athletic department is severed from the University maybe you get a different answer? I think that the tax favored status of donations to Universities is dubious to begin with, certainly for athletic departments, so I'm not going to get exercised over that tax break going away. Yes, these athletic departments are going to have employees which means they'll have to comply with the payroll tax rules and their employees will have to file tax returns where they work. These are not reasons not to do what is right.

[NorthernBison]

Yahoo has a story now about improper benefits for 5 SEC players, also completely unsurprising. When are these stories going to stop being about the players and start being about the NCAA and it's stupid rules that make criminals out of kids instead of the cartel exploiting them.

Don't forget the dirty NFL's intrusion into College football. It's their rule that athletes can't play in the NFL until their graduating class has been out of high school for 3 years. They are nearly as complicit in the exploitation as the NCAA.

[bisonaudit]

Don't forget the dirty NFL's intrusion into College football. It's their rule that athletes can't play in the NFL until their graduating class has been out of high school for 3 years. They are nearly as complicit in the exploitation as the NCAA.

I guess that makes it OK then.

But seriously, this is another problem that solves itself once you stop treating college football players like indentured servants. At that point, if they keep such a rule, is it really any worse than the current CBA which artificially holds down the wages of new union members?

[NorthernBison]

Overall, do major college Athletic Departments MAKE huge profits? Outside of football and men's basketball most sports are money pits. What has to give?

If there is not profit there, then the pot of money must grow if some athletes are going to get paid. Maybe there are many boosters out there waiting for the OK to throw money at players.

[bisonaudit]

Overall, do major college Athletic Departments MAKE huge profits? Outside of football and men's basketball most sports are money pits. What has to give?

If there is not profit there, then the pot of money must grow if some athletes are going to get paid. Maybe there are many boosters out there waiting for the OK to throw money at players.

It's an illusion that there isn't any profit. They're not allowed to make a profit. Even if they were there aren't any investors they owe a return to so there wouldn't be any point. The excess earnings inflate executive salaries and get spent on ridiculous capital improvements like Oregon's training facility. At least some of the capital improvements provide an indirect benefit to the players, but mostly they are self congratulatory monuments to someone's ego.

[Mayville Bison]

Interesting addition to the story. 9 of the 12 former players were either kicked out of school, dismissed from the team, transferred because of playing time, or just quit.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/12/more-holes-poked-in-sis-osu-expose/

[Bison"FANatic"]

The excess earnings inflate executive salaries and get spent on ridiculous capital improvements like Oregon's training facility.

Interesting argument on Oregons training facility but

"The entire project will be privately funded through the philanthropy of Phil and Penny Knight and will include no use of public, state or general university fund dollars. Construction is expected to get underway after the first of the year, with the anticipated completion targeted for the summer of 2013." http://www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205035352&DB_OEM_ID=500

but I do understand your continued hatred toward people who make large amounts of money. They should really have no choice in how they want to spend their own money and let a entity decide for them.

[NorthernBison]

It's an illusion that there isn't any profit. They're not allowed to make a profit. Even if they were there aren't any investors they owe a return to so there wouldn't be any point. The excess earnings inflate executive salaries and get spent on ridiculous capital improvements like Oregon's training facility. At least some of the capital improvements provide an indirect benefit to the players, but mostly their self congratulatory monuments to someone's ego.

So, would it be possible to "redistribute" a bunch of money within college sports to compensate football players without running most programs well into the red ink?

Or would college sports just implode?

[bisonaudit]

So, would it be possible to "redistribute" a bunch of money within college sports to compensate football players without running most programs well into the red ink?

Or would college sports just implode?

Jesus, it's not like it's a hand out. The players are the ones doing all the work.

[bisonaudit]

but I do understand your continued hatred toward people who make large amounts of money. They should really have no choice in how they want to spend their own money and let a entity decide for them.

Just because I happen to think that the tax code shouldn't provide incentives to people for donating money to athletic departments in exchange for the erection of public monuments to the donor doesn't mean that I hate people who make a lot of money.

Removing a tax break doesn't remove the right of a private citizen to do what they will with their own money. It fact it enhances that rich person's freedom because now more of his choices are on an equal playing field instead of some being favored economically for basically no reason.

[BadlandsBison]

Jesus, it's not like it's a hand out. The players are the ones doing all the work.

And getting a free education for it. But let me guess, that's not enough

[bisonaudit]

And getting a free education for it. But let me guess, that's not enough


Who give a shit about paying a guy $25,000 when 67 basketball games generate $800 million and 3 football games generate $500 million for the NCAA and its members. It's un-American and it needs to end.

These arguments are as old as they are ridiculous. It's the same stupid clap trap that was trotted out in defense of the reserve clause in professional baseball. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now. College football and basketball money are way bigger now than any of the professional leagues were when free agency was instituted.

It's akin to paying a coal miner in 'scrip' that he can only redeem at the company store. Then when he goes to shop for his groceries there's only one item on the shelf. A wealthy donor gets to do whatever he wants with his income (and get a tax break for doing it) but the kids who put the butts in the seats on Saturday have no choice about where or on what to 'spend' their 'compensation'.

There's no reason not to compensate these kids and there are any number of ways to start doing it. One would be to given them the right to make money off of their own image. Ed O'Bannon is suing for this now.

[BadlandsBison]

Comparing college athletes to coal miners?! Lol ok. Maybe college athletes should go on strike :)

I do agree that corruption follows the big money in college football and elsewhere. Pay for play fixes that? Idk

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

[bisonaudit]

Comparing college athletes to coal miners?! Lol ok. Maybe college athletes should go on strike :)

I do agree that corruption follows the big money in college football and elsewhere. Pay for play fixes that? Idk

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

I didn't compare them to coal miners. I compared your idea about how they get 'paid' to how some coal miners actually used to get paid. College football players enjoy much better working conditions but your conception of how they get 'paid' today is worse than how those actual coal miners were actually paid.

[BadlandsBison]

I didn't compare them to coal miners. I compared your idea about how they get 'paid' to how some coal miners actually used to get paid. College football players enjoy much better working conditions but your conception of how they get 'paid' today is worse than how those actual coal miners were actually paid.

How cruel. They should go on strike

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

[aces1180]

I didn't compare them to coal miners. I compared your idea about how they get 'paid' to how some coal miners actually used to get paid. College football players enjoy much better working conditions but your conception of how they get 'paid' today is worse than how those actual coal miners were actually paid.

Nobody is holding a gun to the player's heads to play football. It's a privilege, not a right to get a free education and play a game.

[bisonaudit]

How cruel. They should go on strike

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

That's an option. There are others. Including the courts where they are now.

http://www.stevepre.com/aau_life.html

http://www.stevepre.com/aau_effects.html

[BadlandsBison]

Yup well good luck with all of this. You have a good weekend.
http://www.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pipboy.jpg

[NorthernBison]

Jesus, it's not like it's a hand out. The players are the ones doing all the work.

I'm not making an argument. I'm simply asking a question that takes into account the big picture of college sports.

You're talking specifically about college football. What about men's basketball? Should those players get paid too?

THEN, should ALL college athletes get paid? OR, should it only be the ones who play sports that generate positive revenue?

Finally, if college football players get paid, is there going to be enough money left over for the schools to afford to fund all of their sports.

I'm asking the question because I'm of the opinion that there is a finite amount of money available. If boosters are allowed to fork out big bucks to attract players to their favorite school, it's reasonable to assume they will likely choose to cut back on what they give directly to the school. Conversely, if they give money to the school and the school funnels it to players, they aren't likely to INCREASE their donations indefinitely. So, when the money doesn't cover everything, what gives?

[56BISON73]

And getting a free education for it. But let me guess, that's not enough

It isnt free.