Is this holding?

[westnodak93bison]

Is this holding? A Bison fan behind me was screaming for a holding call.
3019

[No_Skill]

Indy? Indy?

Great photo of the play. I remember this during the game for some reason and wondered about the call myself.

[HerdBot]

should pads, yeah for sure. I actually like how the ref called the game so I can't complain. He let them play. I hate holding calls.

[Tatanka]

What gabe said.


Holy shit what did I just type?

Sent from somewhere using my Win8 phone or something.

[JustinTyem]

I think its holding...........

[IndyBison]

Indy? Indy?

Great photo of the play. I remember this during the game for some reason and wondered about the call myself.

You usually can't tell much from a still picture. This shows a potential for a hold but I would need to see the actual play before deciding. Do you remember when it happened? I have the game on DVR. There were only 3 penalties in this game. The officials had to love working this game.

[HerdBot]

What gabe said.


Holy shit what did I just type?

Sent from somewhere using my Win8 phone or something.

Your like a celebrity being on ESPN and all so I'm flattered.

[westnodak93bison]

I'm pretty sure it was 2nd half

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[Tatanka]

Your like a celebrity being on ESPN and all so I'm flattered.




some agency called me and asked me to sign a whole bunch of stuff and they'd pay me $5000 but I didn't want to get suspended for the first half of the Ferris State game.





Sent from somewhere using my Win8 phone or something.

[Bisonguy]

some agency called me and asked me to sign a whole bunch of stuff and they'd pay me $5000 but I didn't want to get suspended for the first half of the Ferris State game.





Sent from somewhere using my Win8 phone or something.


You better do that fake autograph deal for one of your Ferris State close-ups.

[BlueBisonRock]

Your like a celebrity being on ESPN and all so I'm flattered.

Just remember. He wouldn't have the press if it were not for someone protecting his flank.

[HerdBot]

some agency called me and asked me to sign a whole bunch of stuff and they'd pay me $5000 but I didn't want to get suspended for the first half of the Ferris State game.





Sent from somewhere using my Win8 phone or something.

You should have told them to donate to the shac fund instead

[Herd]

Hold? No, I'd say that is not typically called a Hold. Now, if the QB went right, and 61 tried to run after him and OL'er didn't release his grip, the flag would fly. Unless Hofcbs is in control of booth reviews, in which case the Hold would be over-turned.

[ndsubison1]

we had big 12 refs correct?

[Gully]

You usually can't tell much from a still picture. This shows a potential for a hold but I would need to see the actual play before deciding. Do you remember when it happened? I have the game on DVR. There were only 3 penalties in this game. The officials had to love working this game.

It was a well played game for being the first game of the year. 2 of the 3 were false starts and I think maybe we had one hold. I didn't even really notice the officials (generally a good sign) expcept when they were announcing the results of a replay. I thought the no-call in the endzone where Marcus and the WR got tangled up was good, they were both playing the ball, hand fighting a bit, but their legs got tangled up. Sometimes it seems the like offense gets the benefit of the doubt on those so I was a little relieved the flag didn't fly.

[thundarsdaddy]

OMG if thats holding, there would be a flag on virtually every play...let 'em play football!

[IndyBison]

Hold? No, I'd say that is not typically called a Hold. Now, if the QB went right, and 61 tried to run after him and OL'er didn't release his grip, the flag would fly. Unless Hofcbs is in control of booth reviews, in which case the Hold would be over-turned.
A key on holds is if the lineman is beat and there is material restriction of the opponent. You'll also usually see some kind of non-athletic move by the opponent. You can't get all that from a picture. Even a still of a long jersey grab doesn't tell you anything because he could be pulling it but the defender gets away without losing any momentum.


we had big 12 refs correct?
Yes


It was a well played game for being the first game of the year. 2 of the 3 were false starts and I think maybe we had one hold. I didn't even really notice the officials (generally a good sign) expcept when they were announcing the results of a replay. I thought the no-call in the endzone where Marcus and the WR got tangled up was good, they were both playing the ball, hand fighting a bit, but their legs got tangled up. Sometimes it seems the like offense gets the benefit of the doubt on those so I was a little relieved the flag didn't fly.
I agree. I think they were all procedural (false start. encroachment, etc.). That was a good no-call in the end zone.

[thundarsdaddy]

I agree. I think they were all procedural (false start. encroachment, etc.). That was a good no-call in the end zone.[/QUOTE]


Good point Indy. In this day and age I, like most people, have no idea as to what exactly IS pass interference anymore!! One thing I have noticed though is that if the defensive player "plays the ball", by turning back towards the QB, he seems to be able to get away with murder. If he does NOT "play the ball" and simply screen the receiver, he will almost always get flagged, even if the bumping is very mild. MWill played the ball!

[HandoEX]

OMG if thats holding, there would be a flag on virtually every play...let 'em play football!
Well said!

[BisonTeacher]

You usually can't tell much from a still picture. This shows a potential for a hold but I would need to see the actual play before deciding. Do you remember when it happened? I have the game on DVR. There were only 3 penalties in this game. The officials had to love working this game.

Indy...is horsecollaring illegal?

[Hammersmith]

I agree. I think they were all procedural (false start. encroachment, etc.). That was a good no-call in the end zone.

Three penalties total and one was intentional; delay of game on KSU to give their punter extra room. One false start to each team. A total of 15 yards of penalties(10yrs really). That was a damned clean game.

[BlueBisonRock]

Three penalties total and one was intentional; delay of game on KSU to give their punter extra room. One false start to each team. A total of 15 yards of penalties(10yrs really). That was a damned clean game.

Also was a hold that was declined.

[CAS4127]

I saw KState Oline grab low back of our jerseys several times just as they were breaking loose to QB. That is holding and could/should have been called at least 3-4 times. I was kinda pissed, but maybe they were letting our guys do the same and I just didn't see it. We would have had couple sacks but for those shirts grabs.


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[IndyBison]

I agree. I think they were all procedural (false start. encroachment, etc.). That was a good no-call in the end zone.


Good point Indy. In this day and age I, like most people, have no idea as to what exactly IS pass interference anymore!! One thing I have noticed though is that if the defensive player "plays the ball", by turning back towards the QB, he seems to be able to get away with murder. If he does NOT "play the ball" and simply screen the receiver, he will almost always get flagged, even if the bumping is very mild. MWill played the ball![/QUOTE]

If you are going to flag PI you need to be able to put it into one of these categories:

Early contact not playing the ball
Hook and turn
Arm grab
Arm bar
Playing through the back
Cut off route

The key term the official needs to ask is did the action have material restriction on the opponent's ability to catch the ball. A defender does get more leeway if he's playing the ball and makes contact because he is entitled to the ball as well.

[IndyBison]

Indy...is horsecollaring illegal?

Yes. The defender needs to grab inside the collar of the shirt or shoulder pads and immediately pull the player to the ground. If another player gets involved in the tackle or the defender doesn't pull him backwards or to the side it's not a foul. I think we'll see this rule get expanded (either by rule or philosophy) to include any action of grabbing around the top of an opponents jersey and pull them backward so their knees buckle unnaturally. It may also become more like a face mask foul where any tackle involving the grasping of the collar of the shoulder pads is a foul.

[IndyBison]

I saw KState Oline grab low back of our jerseys several times just as they were breaking loose to QB. That is holding and could/should have been called at least 3-4 times. I was kinda pissed, but maybe they were letting our guys do the same and I just didn't see it. We would have had couple sacks but for those shirts grabs.

Sounds like a typical defensive player. :rofl:

Just because a jersey gets grabbed doesn't mean it's a hold. They need to take the feet away from the defender. Most of the time the defensive players are too strong to be held by a simple jersey grab from behind. I didn't see any that jumped out at me when I watched the game.

A common phrase we say to each other is MIBT. Stands for Make It Be There. Another one is "don't go shooting skinny rabbits." This should mean something to all the hunters. If you are going to hunt make sure your kill is worthwhile. You aren't going to get much out of a skinny rabbit. This is reference to all advantage/disadvantage fouls (i.e. hold, block in the back, ineligible downfield, pass interference) and most procedural fouls (i.e. false starts, formations, encroachment). Safety fouls (i.e. personal fouls, clipping, roughing, chop blocks) get much less leeway.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

should pads, yeah for sure. I actually like how the ref called the game so I can't complain. He let them play. I hate holding calls.

Just the opposite. I think holding isn't called enough. Hell, there is holding on every play, usually it has some kind of effect on the play.

Nothing worse than when a back springs free for a big gain because some lineman held his man and it doesn't get called.

[BisonTeacher]

Yes. The defender needs to grab inside the collar of the shirt or shoulder pads and immediately pull the player to the ground. If another player gets involved in the tackle or the defender doesn't pull him backwards or to the side it's not a foul. I think we'll see this rule get expanded (either by rule or philosophy) to include any action of grabbing around the top of an opponents jersey and pull them backward so their knees buckle unnaturally. It may also become more like a face mask foul where any tackle involving the grasping of the collar of the shoulder pads is a foul.

So what did you think of our second offensive play? Even the announcer called it a horsecollar and the ref was right there.

[IndyBison]

So what did you think of our second offensive play? Even the announcer called it a horsecollar and the ref was right there.
Just re-watched it to make sure. The defender didn't pull him backward and his knees didn't buckle. He grabbed him by the collar but pulled him down forward. This is the type of play I wonder may eventually turn into a foul though just because he grabbed the horse collar and held it while making a tackle. They may do that to get players from grabbing here in the first place because of the potential danger (similar to a personal foul face mask).

[CAS4127]

Sounds like a typical defensive player. :rofl:

Just because a jersey gets grabbed doesn't mean it's a hold. They need to take the feet away from the defender. Most of the time the defensive players are too strong to be held by a simple jersey grab from behind. I didn't see any that jumped out at me when I watched the.

Taking away even one, or for that matter a half a step can and will prevent a defender from making a tackle. That is one of the reason defensive players get graded on their first step--was it correct, and if not, did it prevent you from being in position to make the play, whether a pass break up, a tackle or filling properly your gap. Even the slightest misstep can put you in bad position. Having the back of your jersey grabbed will by nature cause you to slow at least a half step-->see what I mean?!??

This coming from a defensive player of course!! :) Thanks for insight Indy!!


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[BisonTeacher]

Just re-watched it to make sure. The defender didn't pull him backward and his knees didn't buckle. He grabbed him by the collar but pulled him down forward. This is the type of play I wonder may eventually turn into a foul though just because he grabbed the horse collar and held it while making a tackle. They may do that to get players from grabbing here in the first place because of the potential danger (similar to a personal foul face mask).

Thanks indy.

[SUBISON247]

One thing I noticed a couple of times were K State players tugging at Bison players helmets. Did any one else notice this?

[Hammerhead]

Is #44 being held on the last TD? (I can't see the number of the Bison player on the end of the line that is grabbing his ankle.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3133611/kstatefail.gif

[IndyBison]

Taking away even one, or for that matter a half a step can and will prevent a defender from making a tackle. That is one of the reason defensive players get graded on their first step--was it correct, and if not, did it prevent you from being in position to make the play, whether a pass break up, a tackle or filling properly your gap. Even the slightest misstep can put you in bad position. Having the back of your jersey grabbed will by nature cause you to slow at least a half step-->see what I mean?!??

This coming from a defensive player of course!! :) Thanks for insight Indy!!


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MIBT...I've seen several instances where a player's jersey is grabbed and stretched but the opponent is often strong enough to go through it with little or no impact. It can happen but it's not an absolute. Call that every time and your career as an official will be very short, especially at the D1 level. Believe it or not there is a ton of accountability for anyone working in the MVFC and above. They are graded on every call of every play. It is so competitive that 3 or 4 downgrades during the season usually means no playoffs or bowl games. Unlike high school officials around the country there is no shortage of qualified college applicants trying to get into the D1 ranks.

[IndyBison]

Is #44 being held on the last TD? (I can't see the number of the Bison player on the end of the line that is grabbing his ankle.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3133611/kstatefail.gif

Good catch! I would pass on this because it was #71's pancake that took B44 out of the play. If the foot hold was the only action on B44 it would depend on how it affected him. It's very possible he gets through that with no hesitation. But if there is any material restriction there would be a flag on that play. Correct no call.

[BisonNation11]

Good catch! I would pass on this because it was #71's pancake that took B44 out of the play. If the foot hold was the only action on B44 it would depend on how it affected him. It's very possible he gets through that with no hesitation. But if there is any material restriction there would be a flag on that play. Correct no call.

I was wondering the same thing with this play. I questioned if Gimmie went for the first person he saw, or if it was his job to take that guy out. To me, he should have been going for the guy that hit Jensen around the goal line. If he takes that guy out instead, does Brock sail into the end zone untouched? I think Vaadland would have kept #44 out of the play enough without holding to keep him from getting to Jensen. Of course this is all speculation and I didn't want to talk about what if's... I also love how Grothman does his job blocking, makes sure his job is done, and then turns to make sure there isn't anything he can do behind him where the play is going on. I'm not sure that's something you can teach. He seems to always be the first around the ball when they are around the goal line when his job is done.