Vigen's new trick plays for '13-'14 season???

[BisonNation11]

Been watching a few trick play videos on YouTube and it got me thinking. What trick plays would you like to see Vigen install into the offense? Here's a couple of my favorites.

I like this one because if it doesn't work, I'm sure it could be called roughing the kicker if they hit him before he takes off. Indy could help on the rules of that one.


http://youtu.be/egjQ-BsaYtE



Awesome if you can pull it off, but odds are the QB dies...


http://youtu.be/gNb7PBEr_WU



Again, great if it works, dead QB if it doesn't.


http://youtu.be/2F4uhUnvzZQ

[KSBisonFan]

If a defensive player didn't fall for the gimmick play and destroyed the QB as he's leisurely walking around, I can see a ref throwing a flag followed by a brawl so you'd have a dead QB and a nice 15 yard gain from the penalty.

But yeah, we should have our kicker throw a hail Mary to a defensive end on every play.

[Bison"FANatic"]

I thought they were illegal as you can't confuse the defense into believing a snap isn't imminent or some wording like that.

[bisonmike2]

Now this thread is normally where snarky and smartass Bisonmike might show up and post something like, "Vigen's new trick plays? How about something other than run up the middle for 3 downs then punt?" or "How's this for a trick play? Have our receivers run something other than a 5 to 10 yard out." but that's the old Bisonmike. And that was before Vigen did a great job calling plays in the playoffs and was a reason why we've won back to back NC's.

[BisonNation11]

I thought they were illegal as you can't confuse the defense into believing a snap isn't imminent or some wording like that.

I have never read the rule book or anything like that, so I'm not sure my point has a foundation to stand on, but is there a rule on how you snap the ball? The defense in the two videos (the bottom two I assume you are talking about) watched the center give the QB the ball. Is that not a snap? It's not normal I will give you that. Anyway, was just bored doing some work on the computer, took a break, and came up with this stuff. Stupid off season.

[tony]

NDSU runs the wildcat with Brock Jensen at QB... oh wait, we kind of already do that. :)

[Bison"FANatic"]

I have never read the rule book or anything like that, so I'm not sure my point has a foundation to stand on, but is there a rule on how you snap the ball? The defense in the two videos (the bottom two I assume you are talking about) watched the center give the QB the ball. Is that not a snap? It's not normal I will give you that. Anyway, was just bored doing some work on the computer, took a break, and came up with this stuff. Stupid off season.

I don't know the rules I just vaguely remember something changing I thought, I think those videos are great and I like watching them. Good thread to keep us occupied. I was not trying to derail it at all.

[BisonTeacher]

Now this thread is normally where snarky and smartass Bisonmike might show up and post something like, "Vigen's new trick plays? How about something other than run up the middle for 3 downs then punt?" or "How's this for a trick play? Have our receivers run something other than a 5 to 10 yard out." but that's the old Bisonmike. And that was before Vigen did a great job calling plays in the playoffs and was a reason why we've won back to back NC's.

YOu beat me to it. I was going to say run on every first down in the first half and and catch everyone by surprise :biggrin:

But you are right...he saved it all for the big game.

[TAILG8R]

I hate those second two plays because it represent a coach taking advantage of young kids. If you were to try anything representing that all hell would break loose and more than likely whistles would blow the play dead just because of confusion. With the way the D line is itching to attack at the slightest movement of the ball, it wouldn't matter if the ball came up from the front and over the centers shoulders, no way a college D line would just sit still and wait.

[ndsubison1]

punting on 3rd down to avoid a potential jensen interception

[mebisonII]

I hate those second two plays because it represent a coach taking advantage of young kids. If you were to try anything representing that all hell would break loose and more than likely whistles would blow the play dead just because of confusion. With the way the D line is itching to attack at the slightest movement of the ball, it wouldn't matter if the ball came up from the front and over the centers shoulders, no way a college D line would just sit still and wait.

I was going to ask those of you who played/coached/watched youth football what the reaction to that type of play would be. I can imagine that with the right league and opposing team, where everyone was mostly just having fun, that people would laugh and shake their heads at being tricked. But it seems like every league/team has at least a couple over-zealous parents who would freak out.

I also agree that any QB willing to try that with the Bison O-line keyed up and twitching in their stances has a set of giant brass ones. :)

[KilldeerBison]

I like the bounce pass/lateral; starts with a lateral pass that is throw into the turf and bounces once to the receiver who catches it, then he fakes the D into believing the play is over (bounced incomplete pass), then he fires a deep pass to another receiver for a TD. I think this play works best on artificial turf, more consistent bounce.

[BisonTeacher]

In all seriousness. I have always been a fan of the old hook & ladder. Good stuff. Would love to see us run it. Old School.

[BisonNation11]

I like the bounce pass/lateral; starts with a lateral pass that is throw into the turf and bounces once to the receiver who catches it, then he fakes the D into believing the play is over (bounced incomplete pass), then he fires a deep pass to another receiver for a TD. I think this play works best on artificial turf, more consistent bounce.

Here it is! Great play! I could see this working in Frisco come next January... Short grass, well kept field, blitz-happy front 8 if it's SHSU again... I see the stars lining up now!


http://youtu.be/I1MdEbWaP0U

[Mayville Bison]

Been watching a few trick play videos on YouTube and it got me thinking. What trick plays would you like to see Vigen install into the offense? Here's a couple of my favorites.

I like this one because if it doesn't work, I'm sure it could be called roughing the kicker if they hit him before he takes off. Indy could help on the rules of that one.


Indy or someone can correct me if I'm wrong (or maybe has posted already since I haven't read anymore posts), but in order for it to be roughing the kicker, the kick has to happen without getting blocked.

[BisonTeacher]

With the way the D line is itching to attack at the slightest movement of the ball, it wouldn't matter if the ball came up from the front and over the centers shoulders, no way a college D line would just sit still and wait.

This...

I would actually like to see someone try one of these against us and watch our defense just smear the QB as he is attempting to walk through the line.

[Kansas State U]

Here it is! Great play! I could see this working in Frisco come next January... Short grass, well kept field, blitz-happy front 8 if it's SHSU again... I see the stars lining up now!


http://youtu.be/I1MdEbWaP0U

Presbyterian was losing 28-0 at the time of this play and eventually lost 53-13. Trick plays are a sign of desperation.

[BisonNation11]

Presbyterian was losing 28-0 at the time of this play and eventually lost 53-13. Trick plays are a sign of desperation.

I'm pretty sure any time NDSU has run a trick play in the last 2 years, it's been done with a lead. I take it as a sign of knowing you have an advantage on the other team, and now you're going to exploit their tendencies and weaknesses. That could just be my optimistic/championship minded way of looking at things... :biggrin:

[BlueBisonRock]

Now this thread is normally where snarky and smartass Bisonmike might show up and post something like, "Vigen's new trick plays? How about something other than run up the middle for 3 downs then punt?" or "How's this for a trick play? Have our receivers run something other than a 5 to 10 yard out." but that's the old Bisonmike. And that was before Vigen did a great job calling plays in the playoffs and was a reason why we've won back to back NC's.

Yes BM, I am joining you as we also saw a handoff to the fullback (with a loaded box) for a small gain countered by a surprising jump pass and some throws to the fullback. I will stay on the BV bandwagon all season!

[fanbison]

Plays 2 & 3 will be shut down immediately during any college or high school game. It would NEVER happen in a college game....as it would be shut down immediatley and the players would "take care of it". In addition no college coach is dumb enough to try. These plays would also draw a flag in a high school game..clearly unsportsmanlike --as defined in the rule book--and charged to the head coach. Experienced officials would shut the play down as soon as the "snap was NOT imminent". Youth coaches who teach this crap are an embarassment...this is also the level of foootball where officials are learning as well; which is why stuff like this is sometimes allowed to happen. Coaches that teach this crap are the same ones that would have screamed bloody murder if a defensive player creams his guy as he is "trying to switch the ball"

Can't rough a kicker that doesn't kick....because if he doesn't kick, he isn't a kicker.

[Mayville Bison]

I'm pretty sure any time NDSU has run a trick play in the last 2 years, it's been done with a lead. I take it as a sign of knowing you have an advantage on the other team, and now you're going to exploit their tendencies and weaknesses. That could just be my optimistic/championship minded way of looking at things... :biggrin:

The two I'm not sure on is 1) the fake punt in the '11 championship game. Might have had a lead, but small one. 2) Handoff to Smith in the SDSU game - game again tight, but I think we had the lead.

All others (flea-flickers, 2x reverse, jump pass in '12 champ game) we had comfortable leads if memory serves.

[tony]

The two I'm not sure on is 1) the fake punt in the '11 championship game. Might have had a lead, but small one. 2) Handoff to Smith in the SDSU game - game again tight, but I think we had the lead.

All others (flea-flickers, 2x reverse, jump pass in '12 champ game) we had comfortable leads if memory serves.

Went back and checked: Bison were down by three for the fake punt, up 4 when Ryan Smith took the handoff against SDSU.

Maybe defenses started getting sloppy with their fundamentals once NDSU had a comfortable lead.

[BisonNation11]

Went back and checked: Bison were down by three for the fake punt, up 4 when Ryan Smith took the handoff against SDSU.

Maybe defenses started getting sloppy with their fundamentals once NDSU had a comfortable lead.

I guess my point was that they don't do it out of desperation or because nothing else is working (lots of game left in the '11 champ game). People look for NDSU to run the ball and throw short to medium passes. Most of the trick plays we see take advantage of those tendencies. The Smith play, the jump pass, many of the flea flickers, take advantage of teams seeing run and going after it without anyone paying attention to anything else that's going on with the rest of the play.

[IndyBison]

Haven't watched the videos yet but I can get an idea from the comments what is there.

First...can't have roughing the passer or kicker without a pass or kick. You could have a personal foul though if the action is excessive.

Second...wrong ball tricks are unsportsmanlike fouls at both NCAA and HS levels. There are HS officials who don't understand that because you rarely see it so it wouldn't surprise me if it happened in a HS game without a flag. You would not see that in a D1 game.

Third...the bounce ball trick is legal but hard to execute well. I've only seen it once in an NAIA Spring game. It was executed well but the covering official was confused and blew his whistle. Oops!

Fourth, it sounds like one play is a fake punt where the punter throws a high pass to get the defender to block the gunner and thus drawing a DPI foul. NCAA rules have an exception to the DPI rule so this is not a foul. HS does not so it could work. The threshold for DPI is going to be pretty high though.

If you are going to run any kind of trick play, every aspect of the play is going to be more scrutinized. If you are on offense you better make sure all your linemen are on the LOS. Being set for 1 full second will be looked at closely. On an onside kick the free kick line will be a plane while other times it's a line and players are given more leeway.

I'll let you know if I see anything else when looking at the video.

[1st&TennBison]

Back when I played high school football, my brother was a LB and I was playing SS when the other team tried a trick play very similar to the 2nd and 3rd videos. We were playing a school called Toms River South and their QB was in a shotgun formation and the RB was right next to him. The RB walked up and took the ball from the center and walked on across the line of scrimmage on an angle towards their sideline. No one on our team even remotely thought it was a trick play, however, my brother was extremely pissed because he was hit way after the last play ended and decided he was going to (in his mind) get a little payback by hitting the RB as he was walking with the ball. So he took off after the RB and he just hammered the kid almost flipping him over and he fumbled the ball. We recovered it when the other team started running for the ball only then starting to realize that something was up. I should say, that it was raining during the game and most of us thought they were trying to ask for a dry football. We got back to the sidelines and our coach runs up to my brother patting him on the back and congratulating him and asked how was it that he knew it was a trick play. My brother responded that he didn't know and that he was out for some payback because he was hit so late on the previous play. Shhhh that is a secret, lol.

[td577]

I thought coaches let refs in on the trick plays to make sure they are legal?


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[taper]

Third...the bounce ball trick is legal but hard to execute well. I've only seen it once in an NAIA Spring game. It was executed well but the covering official was confused and blew his whistle. Oops!


I know it's been done fairly recently, but isn't an intentional fumble illegal? Wiki says NCAA banned them in 1992, though I'll trust you more.

[Bison bison]

Presbyterian was losing 28-0 at the time of this play and eventually lost 53-13. Trick plays are a sign of desperation.

This.

Remember brewsters first seriesvagainst the bison and the pass to decker.

[IndyBison]

I know it's been done fairly recently, but isn't an intentional fumble illegal? Wiki says NCAA banned them in 1992, though I'll trust you more.
Thank you for your faith. The only rule against intentional fumbles is 7-1-7 Planned loose ball:

ARTICLE 7. A Team A player may not advance a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper.

The bounce play though isn't a fumble. It's a backward pass.

[IndyBison]

I thought coaches let refs in on the trick plays to make sure they are legal?


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They often give us a heads up before the game but there is no requirement they do it. What they describe and what they do are often different.

[IndyBison]

Play 1 is legal.

Play 2 is an illegal snap. Rule 2-23-1:
ARTICLE 1. a. Legally snapping the ball (a snap) is handing or passing it backward from its position on the ground with a quick and continuous motion of the hand or hands, the ball actually leaving the hand or hands in this motion (Rule 4-1-4).

Although not specifically outlawed in the rule book, most officials agree it's almost impossible to legal snap the ball when it doesn't go through the legs of the snapper. This one was definitely not a quick and continuous motion and the ball did not leave his hands as part of this motion. You could also consider this an unfair act and penalize 15 yards. I would go with illegal snap and tell them not to do it again.

Play 3 in unsportsmanlike conduct. Rule 9-2-2c
No equipment may be used to confuse opponents

This is commonly referred to as the wrong ball trick. Shut it down as quickly as you can and assess 15 yards to the head coach. One more time and he gets to go home early to his wife. Another variation of this play is for the QB to start walking to the sideline (legal motion) and snap the ball to another back. That is also a foul. The rule wording is different but the HS rules would be applied similarly.

[IndyBison]

I thought they were illegal as you can't confuse the defense into believing a snap isn't imminent or some wording like that.

The HS rule has wording similar to the that. The NCAA rule simply states:
No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents.

None of the plays in these videos fall under these rules. An example would be a team breaking the huddle with one of the players moving toward the sideline as if he's being replaced but stopping at the sideline hoping nobody notices he's still on the field.

[gumby013]

I think we'll see the Swinging Gate coming out of a time out. I've only seen it run a handful of times, but it has never not worked.

[Mayville Bison]

I think our defense should do this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxnKDsymCcs

[KTF]

I think our defense should do this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxnKDsymCcs

A few years ago, when NDSU played UNI in Cedar Falls, Carlos Anderson got stopped for a 30 some yard loss in the same fashion. However he was smarter than this kid and didn't throw the ball up..

[SportsLover]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vpwzkSlGxc

This one is pretty good. The problem is it has to be a perfect situation, has to be at a certain yardline we would be unsure if Keller kicker has the leg.

[BisonAccountant44]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vpwzkSlGxc

This one is pretty good. The problem is it has to be a perfect situation, has to be at a certain yardline we would be unsure if Keller kicker has the leg.

Why didn't that one fall under ?


The HS rule has wording similar to the that. The NCAA rule simply states:
No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents.


I would assume the only reason he was left that alone on the sideline is because the D thought he ran off the field or was it just a bad camera angle?

[Mayville Bison]

Why didn't that one fall under ?



I would assume the only reason he was left that alone on the sideline is because the D thought he ran off the field or was it just a bad camera angle?

He didn't leave the field. He was part of the team coming on the field and just stopped so they didn't notice him

[gumby013]

He didn't leave the field. He was part of the team coming on the field and just stopped so they didn't notice him

And as long as he came out as far as the numbers, he was legal.

[IndyBison]

Why didn't that one fall under ?



I would assume the only reason he was left that alone on the sideline is because the D thought he ran off the field or was it just a bad camera angle?

This is a perfect example of that foul. The crew just missed it. I'm pretty sure they got dinged pretty hard for missing it. It was not an illegal formation (not being inside the 9-yard mark between dead ball and snap) but it was a foul for simulating a substitution to confuse opponents. I believe this was also before the rule change that requires the defense to have an opportunity to sub if the offense does a late substitution.

[Bison"FANatic"]

This is a perfect example of that foul. The crew just missed it. I'm pretty sure they got dinged pretty hard for missing it. It was not an illegal formation (not being inside the 9-yard mark between dead ball and snap) but it was a foul for simulating a substitution to confuse opponents. I believe this was also before the rule change that requires the defense to have an opportunity to sub if the offense does a late substitution.

If that happened now wouldn't one of the officials step up and stand over the ball until the defense was set then put the ball in play or whatever the correct term is. What is the official looking for before he steps off and allows the ball to be played, is it time dependent or will he stand there till they are set or what is he looking for. What triggers him to step in and stand over the ball? Is it any substitution or does it have to be so many players or what?

[IndyBison]

If that happened now wouldn't one of the officials step up and stand over the ball until the defense was set then put the ball in play or whatever the correct term is. What is the official looking for before he steps off and allows the ball to be played, is it time dependent or will he stand there till they are set or what is he looking for. What triggers him to step in and stand over the ball? Is it any substitution or does it have to be so many players or what?
If there are offensive substitutions, the wing officials on their sideline are supposed to give what we call the "iron cross" signal (arms straight out with hands in a fist). The referee will mirror the signal once he sees it and possibly verbalize to the umpire if he's doing something else. If the offense is in a huddle the U will not come over the ball because the defense still has time to sub. If the offense is not in a huddle, the U will come over the ball to give the defense a chance to react to the substitution. There is no set time but if it appears the defense does not plan to sub the R will release the U. If it does appear the defense is going to match the substitution they are given enough time to get the subs in but not so much that they have to get set.

The risk the offense takes is if they do this sub too late in the play clock, it could run out while the umpire is over the ball. I've never had that happen to me in a game. In this case the defense would have been given an opportunity to get their FG defense unit on the field but not so much that they make sure they are all set in position. It's definitely an inexact science but has never been an issue in my games.