Question: Why no onside kick to start the 2nd half?

[bisontown]

We kicked off from the Sammy 35 yardline. We kicked it into the endzone for a touchback, Sammy gets ball at 25. If we had kicked an onside kick, we get a chance to recover the ball, if we don't, they get the football around the 25.

[MankatoBison]

Thought the exact same thing! Didn't make sense to me then, especially considering that it was tied at the time... but we one so no harm, no foul I guess haha

[Bisonguy]

Fire special teams coach. Save season.

[MNLonghorn10]

i was livid at this at the time...at worse we give up 5-10 yards( i think the ball was kicked at the 35 or 40)...

I dont know how this works, he actually did kick it off the ground, and tried to pin them inside the 10 since it would that not be an illegal procedure penalty? but it ended up being a touchback, and sam houston had no harm done.

[AjaxTheMighty]

Fire special teams coach. Save season.

That was weird. I don't get it.

[bisonmike2]

Bohl said in the post game that he knew Fritz would be expecting the onside so they tried to pooch it behind the front line and get a recovery. It was kicked too hard and went into the end zone.

[Hammerhead]

I thought they would go for onside kick since they probably don't practice a 30 yard pooch kick off.

[bisonmike2]

I thought they would go for onside kick since they probably don't practice a 30 yard pooch kick off.

He also mentioned that it probably failed because they don't practice doing that from the opponents 35 yard line.

[IndyBison]

i was livid at this at the time...at worse we give up 5-10 yards( i think the ball was kicked at the 35 or 40)...

I dont know how this works, he actually did kick it off the ground, and tried to pin them inside the 10 since it would that not be an illegal procedure penalty? but it ended up being a touchback, and sam houston had no harm done.
No such foul as "illegal procedure". Not sure what you mean. Bison would have to let receiver catch the ball but once it hit the ground it was fair game. If there is no receiver in the area the Bison could catch it in the air.

[MNLonghorn10]

No such foul as "illegal procedure". Not sure what you mean. Bison would have to let receiver catch the ball but once it hit the ground it was fair game. If there is no receiver in the area the Bison could catch it in the air.
im stupid and am having a total brainfart on what its called.

[BlueBisonRock]

Indy, what would have occurred had the ball been kicked out of bounds? Spot at point of KO less 30 yards (the 5)? Or some other interesting rule?

[IndyBison]

Indy, what would have occurred had the ball been kicked out of bounds? Spot at point of KO less 30 yards (the 5)? Or some other interesting rule?

SHSU would have the following choices:
30 yards from where kicked
5 yards from where it went OOB
Bison rekick from 40

Depending on where it goes OOB they would pick one of the last 2 options. In normal kickoffs the 30 yard option is usually the best option.

[Bisonguy]

That was weird. I don't get it.

Not really, and not surprising.

[coloradobison]

If that kick bounces away from the endzone we have as good a chance at recovering as they do. Good call in my opinion as Sam has 9 guys 10 yards from the kick. Best chance to recover or pin them.

[1998braves64]

my thought was they were trying to go over the main line of receivers as they had 8-9 guys at the 25-20? they were going over to about the 10-5 yard line and hoping it would bounce up/back but the thing took a sharp hop right into the endzone, because I don't recall seeing any SHSU guys in the area where the kick was. Unlike punts a kickoff is live once it hits the ground they don't have to wait for SHSU to touch it (I think in general terms Indy will set me straight if that isn't how it is I'm sure!).

[natstar1]

Bohl said in the post game that he knew Fritz would be expecting the onside so they tried to pooch it behind the front line and get a recovery.
ehhhhh...so?

[cracker]

my thought was they were trying to go over the main line of receivers as they had 8-9 guys at the 25-20? they were going over to about the 10-5 yard line and hoping it would bounce up/back but the thing took a sharp hop right into the endzone, because I don't recall seeing any SHSU guys in the area where the kick was. Unlike punts a kickoff is live once it hits the ground they don't have to wait for SHSU to touch it (I think in general terms Indy will set me straight if that isn't how it is I'm sure!).

Kickoff is live after travelling 10 yards, is it not? Don't think it needs to hit the ground

[BadlandsBison]

Yup, the ground bounce is to prevent a fair catch I think

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[the_hog]

Kick it high in the air, force him to fair catch it inside his own 10 or if he chooses not to we recover once it hits the ground.

[natstar1]

Kick it high in the air, force him to fair catch it inside his own 10 or if he chooses not to we recover once it hits the ground.
Considering this is never practiced the chance of success is slim.

HCs make horrible decisions at all levels of football every week. Just add this to this to the list.

[bisonaudit]

Considering this is never practiced the chance of success is slim.

HCs make horrible decisions at all levels of football every week. Just add this to this to the list.

NDSU may never practice it. I don't know one way or the other. But some teams do practice these plays. Pulaski Academy reportedly has 10 flavors of on side kicks that they employ including a pooch. Of course they almost never kick it deep, they almost never punt, they almost never attempt field goals and they almost always go for 2.

NDSU got a bit of a bad break on the bounce I think. We would have been better of if it would have gone out of bounds than into the end zone.

[IndyBison]

Kickoff is live after travelling 10 yards, is it not? Don't think it needs to hit the ground
The kicking team can't legally touch the ball until it has gone 10 yards or touched a receiver. If the ball has not touched the ground or was kicked immediately into the ground and has not touched the ground again and there is a receiver in the area to receive the kick, the kicking team can't touch him or the ball. On a pooch kick like this it had gone 10 yards and if there were no SHSU players in the area to catch it, the Bison could have caught it before it hit the ground.

If a team does practice the pooch kick I doubt they do it too often from the other team's 35.

[stevdock]

I know for many people on here Babich's name is not held in high regard but this pooch kick was something that Babich's teams were very good at as they did it and recovered the ball a number of times while he was here. Executed right it would have been a great call, it just wasn't executed well.

[bisonaudit]

I think the play call was correct. With a traditional onside kick there are basically two outcomes. They cover in on or about the 25 or NDSU does. They were prepared for an onside kick attempt so the odds of a recovery by NDSU were low.

With the pooch they may be forced to field the ball well inside the 25, NDSU could recover, the ball could go in the end zone for a touchback to the 25 or it could go out of bounds. If we kick it OB anywhere inside the 20 their options are to take poorer than touchback field position or play the scenario again from 5 yards further back.

I see no downside to attempting the pooch. If you were worried about not practicing it... It's halftime, practice it. Maybe they alter their coverage and then you catch them with a traditional onside kick which you're more comfortable executing anyway.

[BisonTeacher]

On a related note...indy can u explain why the penalties were enforced on the kickoff? I thought the half couldnt end on a def penalty or is that just the end of the game?

[NDSU1980]

On a related note...indy can u explain why the penalties were enforced on the kickoff? I thought the half couldnt end on a def penalty or is that just the end of the game?I had wondered the same thing, and even Steve Walker had initially said we would be rekicking. The only thing I can think of, and I'm far, far, far, from an expert was that the penalty came after the time had expired and the play blown dead. At any rate, SHSU got away with a chickenshit penalty.

[Snowgoose]

I had wondered the same thing, and even Steve Walker had initially said we would be rekicking. The only thing I can think of, and I'm far, far, far, from an expert was that the penalty came after the time had expired and the play blown dead. At any rate, SHSU got away with a chickenshit penalty.

They did announce them as dead ball fouls so therefore assessed on the kickoff.

[IndyBison]

On a related note...indy can u explain why the penalties were enforced on the kickoff? I thought the half couldnt end on a def penalty or is that just the end of the game?
Any period is extended if a penalty is accepted on a LIVE BALL foul by either team on a down where the game clock expires. The only exception is if the penalty contains a loss of down. Common-taters (as we like to call them) perpetuate the "the half can't end on a defensive penalty" myth. It can't end on either team's penalties. For example, let's say team A scores a TD on the last timed down but they are guilty of holding. The defense will accept the penalty but the period will be extended for an untimed down.

The HS rule is slightly different in that it says the period is extended if a foul occurs during the last timed down. It's subtle but it's all in the wording. Let's say team A is guilty of holding on a down that ends with 5 seconds on the clock. B accepts the penalty. The game clock starts on the RFP and expires before the ball is snapped. A down starts with a legal snap or free kick so there was an accepted penalty on the last timed down of down of the period. The college rule states the foul has to occur on a down when the clock expires.

Dead ball fouls are succeeding spot fouls so they do not extend a period. What is the succeeding spot after the last down of a half? The kickoff for the next half. If that happened at the end of a tied game it would have a huge bearing on the start of OT. A team normally goes on defense in OT but if they were to get 15 or 30 yards from dead ball fouls they may chose to go on offense.

Think of this situation. Team A has a 4th and 5 at the B30. The runner is tackled at the B28 and there is a dead ball personal foul for a late hit. Most people would think A would get a first down. But the foul is a succeeding spot foul which is 1st and 10 for B going the other way. They would start 15 yards back (half the distance in this case to the B14) and the chains would be set for 1st and 10. I'm pretty sure the NFL rule is different and would give A a first down on a dead ball foul.

[bisonmike2]

ehhhhh...so?

Ehhhhhh....the question of the thread is why there was no onside kick. I answered the question.

[natstar1]

Ehhhhhh....the question of the thread is why there was no onside kick. I answered the question.
my response was to Bohl's moronic response for the not attempting an onside, not you.

Seriously, who cares if they are expecting it? The upside of getting the ball at the opponent 25 far outweighs any other options.

[KSBisonFan]

I think we fired the onside kick play earlier this year to save the season???? That's probably why Bohl didn't call it.....Fire pooch kicks, save the season!!!!

[AjaxTheMighty]

Not really, and not surprising.

No. It was weird. Even the announcers were wondering what was going on. Some people were saying that NDSU tried to pooch it and recover. Not even close. NDSU had to pooch it because it was from the 35 yard line. I rewatched that part a few times and there looked to be no attempt to recover that ball whatsoever. You wouldn't pooch it 30 yards nearly straight away if so. You are trying to win another NC. I don't see the harm in trying to onside it there. It basically yielded a 10 yard kick. That is essentially what an on-sider would have done in the first place. A head scratcher there.

[spelunker64]

As Keller just said, if it went out of bounds, Bearkats get it at 40, 5 yrds behind where it was kicked. Plus everyone was thinking onsides...

[IndyBison]

No. It was weird. Even the announcers were wondering what was going on. Some people were saying that NDSU tried to pooch it and recover. Not even close. NDSU had to pooch it because it was from the 35 yard line. I rewatched that part a few times and there looked to be no attempt to recover that ball whatsoever. You wouldn't pooch it 30 yards nearly straight away if so. You are trying to win another NC. I don't see the harm in trying to onside it there. It basically yielded a 10 yard kick. That is essentially what an on-sider would have done in the first place. A head scratcher there.
Pooch kicks are a great way for a kicking team to surprise an opponent and get possession of a free kick. It usually puts the ball into more open space where goofy things can happen. If they wanted this to be a touchback they could have easily booted the ball out of the back of the end zone. It's not as simple as saying "I want to kick this ball up in the air and have it land 25 yards from where I kicked it." This is what he tried to do and it went farther than he wanted. After seeing it again I have no issue with this strategy.


As Keller just said, if it went out of bounds, Bearkats get it at 40, 5 yrds behind where it was kicked. Plus everyone was thinking onsides...
If he said that he is incorrect. The only way it goes back to the 40 is if SHSU accepts the penalty and has the Bison re-kick. The only place SHSU gets the ball is 5-yards in advance of where it sent out of bounds or 30 yards from where it was kicked.

[AjaxTheMighty]

Bohl said in the post game that he knew Fritz would be expecting the onside so they tried to pooch it behind the front line and get a recovery. It was kicked too hard and went into the end zone.

So try something different when a coach expects something else? Novel! This goes against the mantra of Bison football. You know what is coming next but we are going to ram it down your throat anyway. This also doesn't make sense because 90% of the time the opposing coach excpects the onside kick (SDSU regular season game???) and you try anyway. Still a goofy play call. Just line up for the onside kick. Those recievers can crap bricks watching the Herd stampede at them like they have been all game. I wonder if Bell wanted to go out on the hands team?????????

[BisonTeacher]

Plus everyone was thinking onsides...

Who cares...it was a low risk onside kick and could potentially get the ball back and start the half with that momentum? I say do it. Who cares if they know its coming.

When we ran the option...they knew it was coming too.

[IndyBison]

The pooch kick is a form of onside kick. The intent is to give your team an opportunity to possess it. Y'all are arguing over semantics.

[BisonTeacher]

The pooch kick is a form of onside kick. The intent is to give your team an opportunity to possess it. Y'all are arguing over semantics.

Just because they are technically onside kicks doesnt mean they are the same. I think most people would have liked to see the "traditional kick the top of the ball so it hits the ground and bounces up in the air travels ten yards and we recover type of onside kick." Is that a better name? :biggrin:

[IndyBison]

Just because they are technically onside kicks doesnt mean they are the same. I think most people would have liked to see the "traditional kick the top of the ball so it hits the ground and bounces up in the air travels ten yards and we recover type of onside kick." Is that a better name? :biggrin:
It's longer. :biggrin:

I see the people arguing that we didn't do the squib type kick saying what we did was just kick the ball into the end zone with no attempt to get the ball. That's not the case. That just how it came out.

One rule change that happened this year was the ball kicked directly into the ground that bounces high into the air is the same as kicking it directly into the air. This means the front-line guys can fair catch it and you have to let them catch it. This made it much harder for those bounding kicks to be successful because you are relying on a funny bounce or someone on the other team to mis-handle the recovery.

[bisonaudit]

As Keller just said, if it went out of bounds, Bearkats get it at 40, 5 yrds behind where it was kicked. Plus everyone was thinking onsides...

As Indy has pointed out this is incorrect. If our coaches or players misunderstood the application of this rule, that's a shame because in this specific case kicking it out of bounds anywhere inside the 20 would have been preferable to kicking it into the end zone. I think the pooch was the correct strategy in this circumstance, in addition to giving us an opportunity to recover the ball there's also the possibility that they would have been forced to field it well inside the 25. If we didn't understand this rule correctly we may have misdirected the kick somewhat but the pooch was still a better choice over either conceding a touchback or trying an onside which they were clearly prepared for.