Summit Expansion?

[NDSUstudent]

NKU President James Votruba told the Cincinnati Enquirer the school could receive an invitation to a DI conference by the end of 2011. The school would then have to petition the NCAA for the jump.

http://www.eaglecountryonline.com/news.php?nID=2555

OVC decides not to expand...


The OVC released a statement Wednesday night: "Although it remains our policy not to specifically discuss schools that are not a member of our conference, the OVC Board of Presidents have discussed potential institutions, and even had campus visits, but have not extended any invitations for membership at this time and do not expect to in the near future.

"This is not a reflection on the quality of those institutions, but more that the OVC Board of Presidents believes the league is stable at 12 institutions, when you count the addition of Belmont University beginning next year."

http://www.timesdaily.com/stories/OVC-decides-not-to-expland,184497

[Hambone]

http://www.eaglecountryonline.com/news.php?nID=2555

OVC decides not to expand...



http://www.timesdaily.com/stories/OVC-decides-not-to-expland,184497

I would think that it is likely that the Summit would kick the tires on NKU. Eastern school to maybe keep the current eastern schools happy, and a very nice arena to boot. Would probably be a good add.

[DePereBisonFan]

I would think that it is likely that the Summit would kick the tires on NKU. Eastern school to maybe keep the current eastern schools happy, and a very nice arena to boot. Would probably be a good add.

I'm in favor

[Bison bison]

Looks like we've got a new 10th member.

UNK is more in the OVC footprint. I'll gladly take them.

[HandoEX]

This would be fantastic! Best case scenario at this point after ORU leaves. I hope it actually happens!!!

[KSBisonFan]

Article also mentions the Horizon League but they're at 10 teams so let's hope the Summit is their destination. Good find, NDSUstudent.

[zooropa]

http://www.eaglecountryonline.com/news.php?nID=2555

OVC decides not to expand...



http://www.timesdaily.com/stories/OVC-decides-not-to-expland,184497

Landing Belmont is a real coup for the OVC. It's definitely a better addition than NKU.

NKU was, BTW, the school that SDSU defeated for the NCAA D-2 WBB championship in 2003.

[tony]

Landing Belmont is a real coup for the OVC. It's definitely a better addition than NKU.

NKU was, BTW, the school that SDSU defeated for the NCAA D-2 WBB championship in 2003.

NKU also beat NDSU in OT for a national championship (2000?)

[roadwarrior]

Another story:

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111117/NEWS0102/311170035/NKU-s-Division-dreams-stall?odyssey=nav|head

[Tatanka]

Another story:

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111117/NEWS0102/311170035/NKU-s-Division-dreams-stall?odyssey=nav|head


OVC schools apparently had concerns about whether NKU's lack of a football program - which loses significant dollars at nearly all colleges - and the new Bank of Kentucky Center would give it too big an advantage over other OVC schools.

Votruba said NKU has gotten "a great deal of interest" from both the Atlantic Sun and Summit League conferences. Travel will be a concern, but NKU teams already travel as far away as Missouri in the Division II Great Lakes Valley Conference.

NKU said it will continue discussions with the Atlantic Sun and Summit League conferences, which already had approached it about joining.

NKU has been talking with the OVC for months and hosted a visit on its Highland Heights campus earlier this fall.

It remains confident about getting an invitation this year and starting Division I competition in the fall of 2012.

A consultant last year recommended that NKU talk to the Horizon League, the OVC, the Atlantic Sun and the Summit League about membership.

The Horizon, which includes Butler University in Indianapolis, has said it is not interested in expanding now.

The Summit League includes Oakland, Oral Roberts, IUPUI and Fort Wayne. Its current members average about 12,300 total students, about 3,000 less than NKU's current enrollment.



Looks like a good fit for the Summit... if NKU wants to bite off on the travel.

[zooropa]

Looks like a good fit for the Summit... if NKU wants to bite off on the travel.

And cost of compliance:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6966240/ncaa-hands-boise-state-broncos-three-years-probation-scholarship-reduction

"Having new leadership in the office of athletic director that understands the critical role compliance can play in the life of the program" will help prevent future violations, Kustra told The Associated Press in an interview.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5041677

The committee also found that the university failed to monitor the eligibility certification process. Specifically, it failed to provide NCAA rules education and training for key university staff. Although the university had an eligibility committee in place, it did not meet during the four years of the violations.

[PierreYote]

NKU also beat NDSU in OT for a national championship (2000?)


Add USD to the list. In 2008 NKU beat USD in the championship.

[PierreYote]

Speaking of NDSU and WBB. Check out this link from the NCAA.

http://www.ncaa.com/history/basketball-women/d2

Talk about a typo.

[Tatanka]

Speaking of NDSU and WBB. Check out this link from the NCAA.

http://www.ncaa.com/history/basketball-women/d2

Talk about a typo.

:facepalm:

[WYOBISONMAN]

Speaking of NDSU and WBB. Check out this link from the NCAA.

http://www.ncaa.com/history/basketball-women/d2

Talk about a typo.

Good grief........what a stunning error by the NCAA!

[Hammersmith]

Until tonight, I had never actually looked to see where NKU is located. When they say Northern Kentucky, they ain't kidding. A fantastic travel partner for IUPUI.

[Gully]

Wow, I just checked out NKU. That has to be the nicest DII bb facility in the country. They would be great in the Summit.

[bincitysioux]

Good grief........what a stunning error by the NCAA!

These days, no error by the NCAA could be considered "stunning"........................

[Buthockey]

These days, no error by the NCAA could be considered "stunning"........................
You mean like not recognizing the power of the buthockey, eh?

[zooropa]

Until tonight, I had never actually looked to see where NKU is located. When they say Northern Kentucky, they ain't kidding. A fantastic travel partner for IUPUI.

Which would make WIU centrally located-------and a lousy travel partner for *everybody*.

[North Side]

They have a sick basketball arena. However it looks like no one shows or maybe its just so big it seems small (see video). Hopefully that will change once they move to D1. Does anyone have stats on their average attendance? They seem like a women's basketball power house only losing to University of Cincinnati by 3 points as a D2 team now that's legit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_1uSZ-pW1U&feature=related

[HerdBot]

They would be a great additon to the conference. Good tradition, facilities, and a team dedicated to winning. It's cool getting some exposure in Kentucky too.

[Hammersmith]

They would be a great additon to the conference. Good tradition, facilities, and a team dedicated to winning. It's cool getting some exposure in Cincinnati too.
FIFY :)

ten char

[Twentysix]

They have a sick basketball arena. However it looks like no one shows or maybe its just so big it seems small (see video). Hopefully that will change once they move to D1. Does anyone have stats on their average attendance? They seem like a women's basketball power house only losing to University of Cincinnati by 3 points as a D2 team now that's legit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_1uSZ-pW1U&feature=related

I watched the first 40 second of that youtube video. If they arent playing in slomotion the summit will destroy them...

[DORMIE]

WIU would probably partner with UMKC which might be very similar in distance or quite possibly a little farther than traveling to IUPUI. That would put USD and UNO together. Partners NDSU/SDSU,
NKU/IUPUI, IPFW/Oakland, USD/UNO and WIU/UMKC. Actually not too bad.

[WYOBISONMAN]

WIU would probably partner with UMKC which might be very similar in distance or quite possibly a little farther than traveling to IUPUI. That would put USD and UNO together. Partners NDSU/SDSU,
NKU/IUPUI, IPFW/Oakland, USD/UNO and WIU/UMKC. Actually not too bad.

That seems like good partner pairing.....although I still think UNO weakens the conference.

[JSUBison]

That seems like good partner pairing.....although I still think UNO weakens the conference.

Perhaps, but I learned something last night watching the Oakland/Tennessee game that I hadn't known. Oakland was a D2 about 10 years ago. Oakland has come a long ways and have become the team to beat in the Summit year in and year out. I think UNO's AD has his work cut out for him because he can't put all of their focus on BB because of teh hockies, but there is no reason that UNO can't become a very competitive school.

[HandoEX]

Yup, they've only been DI since 1997.

[zooropa]

WIU would probably partner with UMKC which might be very similar in distance or quite possibly a little farther than traveling to IUPUI. That would put USD and UNO together. Partners NDSU/SDSU,
NKU/IUPUI, IPFW/Oakland, USD/UNO and WIU/UMKC. Actually not too bad.

What's ironic about all that is:

USD is closer to SDSU than it is to UNO, SDSU is closer to USD than it is to NDSU, and UMKC is closer to UNO than it is to WIU,

you've got SDSU & USD @ 100 miles apart, not travel partners and UNO to UMKC @ 188 miles, not travel partners.

Instead you get NDSU & SDSU @ 190 miles and UMKC to WIU @ 290 miles.

My solution? Kick NDSU and WIU out of the league to simplify logistics. :D

[coldspot]

What's ironic about all that is:

USD is closer to SDSU than it is to UNO, SDSU is closer to USD than it is to NDSU, and UMKC is closer to UNO than it is to WIU,

you've got SDSU & USD @ 100 miles apart, not travel partners and UNO to UMKC @ 188 miles, not travel partners.

Instead you get NDSU & SDSU @ 190 miles and UMKC to WIU @ 290 miles.

My solution? Kick NDSU and WIU out of the league to simplify logistics. :D

Star2city, is that you?

[zooropa]

Star2city, is that you?

Nope. I'm just anal about some things that, in the big scheme of things, don't much matter.

Still, the overall travel partner arrangement does contain less than optimal pairings in order to make the whole thing work properly.






Maybe NDSU would consider moving to Watertown (warmer weather!), and WIU could move to Hannibal, MO (Mark Twain's birthplace!!).

[Kermit]

Maybe NDSU would consider moving to Watertown (warmer weather!), and WIU could move to Hannibal, MO (Mark Twain's birthplace!!).

Counter proposal: SDSU should move to San Diego to lessen confusion among national media types. You could then consider jumping to the Big Sky and becoming UND's travel partner.

[tjbison]

What's ironic about all that is:

USD is closer to SDSU than it is to UNO, SDSU is closer to USD than it is to NDSU, and UMKC is closer to UNO than it is to WIU,

you've got SDSU & USD @ 100 miles apart, not travel partners and UNO to UMKC @ 188 miles, not travel partners.

Instead you get NDSU & SDSU @ 190 miles and UMKC to WIU @ 290 miles.

My solution? Kick NDSU and WIU out of the league to simplify logistics. :D

Yeah then SDSU might have a shot to win the Conference

[zooropa]

Yeah then SDSU might have a shot to win the Conference

Yeah. I guess I forgot to congratulate NDSU for winning the Commissioner's Cup last year.

[zooropa]

Counter proposal: SDSU should move to San Diego to lessen confusion among national media types. You could then consider jumping to the Big Sky and becoming UND's travel partner.

The SDSU-SDSU merger... Scary part? Another Native American nickname to fight over (the Aztecs, and how, by the way did that one slip below the NCAA radar?)

However, last I heard, Doug Fullerton was talking to the Puerto Rico-Bayamon Cowboys about moving up to D-1 and joining the Big Sky conference in order to make UND look comparatively close to the rest of the Big Sky schools.

[56BISON73]

The SDSU-SDSU merger... Scary part? Another Native American nickname to fight over (the Aztecs, and how, by the way did that one slip below the NCAA radar?)However, last I heard, Doug Fullerton was talking to the Puerto Rico-Bayamon Cowboys about moving up to D-1 and joining the Big Sky conference in order to make UND look comparatively close to the rest of the Big Sky schools.

San Diego State was allowed to keep its "Aztecs" nickname because Aztecs were Mexican, not American,

[tony]

San Diego State was allowed to keep its "Aztecs" nickname because Aztecs were Mexican, not American,

Well, that, and nobody is using the name seeing as how they are extinct as a culture (kind of like the Vikings.)

[DjKyRo]

Well, that, and nobody is using the name seeing as how they are extinct as a culture (kind of like the Vikings.)

So UND could go with "Mongols" and be good to go!

[zooropa]

Well, that, and nobody is using the name seeing as how they are extinct as a culture (kind of like the Vikings.)

Hmf. I thought that, like the Maya, there were still a few left in Mexico, but Wikipedia says not, so I guess I learned *something* today.

[JSUBison]

So UND could go with "Mongols" and be good to go!

It's actually kind of a neat mascot, but I do see some problems for UND if they use this.

Let's work this one out to it's logical conclusion:

Mongols...Mongoloids....Mongs....Window Lickers
And it can only get worse from there.

[Twentysix]

Hmf. I thought that, like the Maya, there were still a few left in Mexico, but Wikipedia says not, so I guess I learned *something* today.

There are plenty left, we call them mexicans. What do you get when you cross a spaniard and an aztec? A mexican.

[zooropa]

NKU going to the A-Sun. Probably figure that it's more of a fit for recruiting, geography (if not necessarily travel), less competition.

UALR?

[Bison bison]

http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111207/NEWS0103/312070129/NKU-will-join-D-Atlantic-Sun


(http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111207/NEWS0103/312070129/NKU-will-join-D-Atlantic-Sun)

[NDSUstudent]

UALR?

Nope, they'd join the Southland(if they had to leave the Sun Belt) because the Summit makes no sense for them with ORU gone.

MN State, SCSU or Bellarmine would be the candidates.

[Bison bison]

MN State and SCSU would be good additions if they drop football ala UNO- !

[heckler]

This is what it has come down to, mn state or st . cloud? Sad. I know we don't have many options but still.

[TheBisonator]

This is what it has come down to, mn state or st . cloud? Sad. I know we don't have many options but still.

Let's get that damn SHAC built and move to the Missouri Valley.

[zooropa]

Let's get that damn SHAC built and move to the Missouri Valley.

Ain't gonna happen. You're heck and gone from Creighton & UNI, and they're the closest schools to Fargo.

Might as well make the best with what you've got. Neither NDSU nor SDSU are getting a sniff at the MVC unless its membership alters dramatically.

[Twentysix]

Ain't gonna happen. You're heck and gone from Creighton & UNI, and they're the closest schools to Fargo.

Might as well make the best with what you've got. Neither NDSU nor SDSU are getting a sniff at the MVC unless its membership alters dramatically.

Assassinate other schools. Problem solved. (I've been playing alot of sid meier games lately)

[zooropa]

Nope, they'd join the Southland(if they had to leave the Sun Belt) because the Summit makes no sense for them with ORU gone.

MN State, SCSU or Bellarmine would be the candidates.
They may get elbowed out of the Sun Belt. If they do, I'm sure they'd prefer the Southland, but the Southland may not be interested in adding a 13th or possibly 14th school, depending on what happens with the University of Northern Alabama.

And I don't want Mankato or St. Cloud State going D-1 and neither should you or any other NDSU fan, that's one more school to recruit against. Bellarmine only has 3200 students. That's not much more than ORU, but I don't imagine that they'd have ORU's commitment to a strong athletic program.

Frankly, there aren't many good alternatives here. Short of poaching Eastern Illinois (which would require coordination with the MVFC), it's an outlier or a transitioning D1 team.

[zooropa]

Assassinate other schools. Problem solved. (I've been playing alot of sid meier games lately)
Or you could blockade Indiana. There are two MVC schools in Indiana.

[heckler]

I would rather invite Winona

[TheBisonator]

I would rather invite Winona

I would take Mankato a million times over Winona. Assuming Mankato drops football first.

[NDSUstudent]

And I don't want Mankato or St. Cloud State going D-1 and neither should you or any other NDSU fan, that's one more school to recruit against.

I'm kind of mixed on this, I think it would add more competition but it would also give the Summit better access into MN, outside of the Big 10 our league would be the only DI conference with a presence in MN.

That said I only want one, not both and football needs to be dropped or put into the Pioneer.

[TheBisonator]

I'm kind of mixed on this, I think it would add more competition but it would also give the Summit better access into MN, outside of the Big 10 our league would be the only DI conference with a presence in MN.

That said I only want one, not both and football needs to be dropped or put into the Pioneer.

I don't think any MN schools will move to DI.

[NDSUstudent]

Since the WAC is dead maybe it is time to starting talking about Denver.....

[Bison bison]

Why?

They are 500 miles from the closest current member.

They should be in the Big Sky (and UND should be in the Summit...).

[Strommer10]

Why?

They are 500 miles from the closest current member.

They should be in the Big Sky (and UND should be in the Summit...).
Logically yes, but conference affiliation isn't always logical. Heck Boise St. is a couple hours from the Pacific Ocean, but they will be in the Big East conference pretty soon.

[NDSUstudent]

Why?

They are 500 miles from the closest current member.

They should be in the Big Sky (and UND should be in the Summit...).

They are a decent school and we are living in a world where finding attractive expansion candidates is difficult.

UND joining would be the best fit but short of UND getting booted from the Big Sky I don't see it happening anytime soon. With Oakland and maybe IUPUI looking at the Horizon the Summit needs another member and I'll take Denver over a MN DII school or Chicago State.

[North Side]

How much longer before Duluth moves to D1. They seem like the only real candidate that could be D1. I don't see Kato or St. Cloud making the move. Honestly, I hope they all stay in D2. UND will not be in the Summit, SDSU just said they would not play them unless they get the whole sue issue under control, and if UND gets the sue issue under control that means they will still be in the Big Sky. Lets just hope Chicago St. gets there act together and take them. Denver won't happen.

[zooropa]

The WAC can probably survive as a non football conference. Albeit with members that the Summit wouldn't consider.

[Grizzled]

With Butler likely leaving for the A-10 tomorrow, meaning there will be a good chance Oakland will be leaving the Summit, I don't think the Summit can turn anyone down right now. I'd take Denver in a second.

[NDSUstudent]

With Butler likely leaving for the A-10 tomorrow, meaning there will be a good chance Oakland will be leaving the Summit, I don't think the Summit can turn anyone down right now. I'd take Denver in a second.

Douple should do whatever it takes, I wouldn't be against looking at some of the other WAC schools either.

[onbison09]

With Butler likely leaving for the A-10 tomorrow, meaning there will be a good chance Oakland will be leaving the Summit, I don't think the Summit can turn anyone down right now. I'd take Denver in a second.

Denver has a good athletic program. Very solid men's team and a good soccer program

[NDSUstudent]

Now it sounds like Boise might weasel their way into the Big West....Denver could be a realistic addition for the Summit.

[silkamilkamonico]

Future of the Summit is definitely in trouble. NDSU needs to do everything it can to solidify the basketball program as legit in the next 3-5 years, in case the Horizon (again) or possibly even MVC comes calling. That did indeed work for Butler.


Hopefully they don't play the honor card and refuse to look at moving without SDSU.

[Tatanka]

Future of the Summit is definitely in trouble. NDSU needs to do everything it can to solidify the basketball program as legit in the next 3-5 years, in case the Horizon or possibly even MVC comes calling. That did indeed work for Butler.


Hopefully they don't play the honor card and refuse to look at moving without SDSU.

I hope they do stick by SDSU. Personally I believe it's much more likely a bball conference will come calling looking for SDSU than NDSU. That extra 180 miles is a bitch.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well I hope if the opportunity ever came they wouldn't give it a second thought if it did not include SDSU or they could end up in a conference undersireable. Just saying if that opportunity ever presented itself.

[Grizzled]

With how the state of South Dakota got involved during the USD to the Big Sky debacle, I see SDSU being more tied to USD than I do us. If any conference comes calling for SDSU, they better be willing to accept USD. Depending on the situation, this could be a positive or a negative for NDSU depending on how many schools the conference is looking for.

[TheBisonator]

I hope they do stick by SDSU. Personally I believe it's much more likely a bball conference will come calling looking for SDSU than NDSU. That extra 180 miles is a bitch.

I dunno if that was supposed to be in purple or not, I can almost drive from Fargo to Brookings in my sleep.

But I agree, we need to use SDSU to our advantage in case a conference is eyeing SDSU more than us due to location alone.

[Tatanka]

I dunno if that was supposed to be in purple or not, I can almost drive from Fargo to Brookings in my sleep.

But I agree, we need to use SDSU to our advantage in case a conference is eyeing SDSU more than us due to location alone.

Perception is reality. Now you and I know that Fargo->Brookings is a relatively short drive (maybe not in winter conditions) but in the eyes of a southern (or great lakes states based) conference that's a long long long way.

[zooropa]

With how the state of South Dakota got involved during the USD to the Big Sky debacle, I see SDSU being more tied to USD than I do us. If any conference comes calling for SDSU, they better be willing to accept USD. Depending on the situation, this could be a positive or a negative for NDSU depending on how many schools the conference is looking for.

For* the last time, the state of South Dakota did NOTHING to get USD into the MVFC. I don't know where or how that rumor got started, but it's utterly baseless.


*what will unfortunately not be

[abc123]

For* the last time, the state of South Dakota did NOTHING to get USD into the MVFC. I don't know where or how that rumor got started, but it's utterly baseless.


*what will unfortunately not be

Is it really baseless? Sioux Falls is building a brand new arena and they want it to host the Summit league basketball tournaments. Another SD school in the Summit doesn't help with that? Not saying that it did or didn't happen, but to call it baseless is a stretch*.

*Obviously a much more complex situation than this, just the first grade version.

[NorthernBison]

Is it really baseless? Sioux Falls is building a brand new arena and they want it to host the Summit league basketball tournaments. Another SD school in the Summit doesn't help with that? Not saying that it did or didn't happen, but to call it baseless is a stretch*.

*Obviously a much more complex situation than this, just the first grade version.

I think it is baseless. It happened as a result of Douple calling up Patty on the eve of losing TWO existing Summit members and one potential member to the BSC. Couple that with Patty quickly understanding the symbiotic relationship between the Summit and the MVFC and a conference call was easy to arrange. It happened so fast that there could hardly have been any time for the State to act.

[zooropa]

Is it really baseless? Sioux Falls is building a brand new arena

Yes. It's baseless. The new arena hadn't even been voted on, heck, they hadn't even finalized a site when USD went to the MVFC.

[zooropa]

TWO existing Summit members and one potential member to the BSC.

Well, in fairness, Douple & co. probably didn't lose any sleep over SUU joining the BSC.

[Grizzled]

I think it is baseless. It happened as a result of Douple calling up Patty on the eve of losing TWO existing Summit members and one potential member to the BSC. Couple that with Patty quickly understanding the symbiotic relationship between the Summit and the MVFC and a conference call was easy to arrange. It happened so fast that there could hardly have been any time for the State to act.

Board of Regents had to give sign off approval and that took a few extra days. That is all the time that was needed. Yes, zoo you can tell me I'm wrong and I have no proof but there was a reason the Board of Regents didn't give immediate approval. They bought time for phone calls to get made.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with how it went down and I admire the state for getting involved to get their two biggest schools back together. It just sucks for NDSU cause unless there is a conference that comes calling with 3 openings, I feel the state of SD isn't letting SDSU and USD seperate again. To get this back on track, the Summit better expand now and Denver would be a good fit. Douple can't sit around and wait any longer.

[zooropa]

there was a reason the Board of Regents didn't give immediate approval

USD was invited on Friday, October 29. The Big Sky press release was Monday, November 1. USD was invited to the MVFC on Tuesday, November 2nd. The SD BoR had met Oct. 12-14, 2010, and their next scheduled meeting was Dec. 15-17.

If you want to spin the BoR not scheduling an emergency meeting over the weekend for Monday in order to approve the USD invite as positive interference in behalf of USD joining the MVFC, go right ahead, but to me, at least, it stretches credulity.

[NorthernBison]

Well, in fairness, Douple & co. probably didn't lose any sleep over SUU joining the BSC.

I doubt if any Commissioner takes any departure lightly but SUU was gone no matter what

This is more about the MVFC and their interest in keeping the Summit breathing. Why else would they have agreed to USD?

Hey, I don't think the State of SD had anything to do with it. What leverage could the BOR possibly have with the MVFC? Zero

[Bison bison]

whatever.

if the north dakota sbohe can push around the ncaa...

wait? what?

[tjbison]

whatever.

if the north dakota sbohe can push around the ncaa...

wait? what?

I was talking about this last week, if the Big fluff boots the pinkies up north, will they then assemble more tax dollars and sue them, or if the measure passes on the nickname will they sue the NDSU fans that voted yes? Tank was crying the other day on 740 about NDSU fans voting for it. Well for 1 don't put it on the ballot if your scared how people will vote, 2 don't sit outside the NDSU playoff games begging for signatures to get it on the ballot

[DePereBisonFan]

It happened so fast that there could hardly have been any time for the State to act.

This.

10 char

[zooropa]

This.

10 char

Additionally, I don't think the state *needed* to get involved, in that both Viverito & Douple were well aware of the risks involved in letting the Big Sky into Vermillion.

The account of events provided by Douple & Viverito, as well as the USD administration is completely plausible. There's really no need to infer covert action by the BoR in order to explain what happened.

[JackJD]

Is it really baseless? Sioux Falls is building a brand new arena and they want it to host the Summit league basketball tournaments. Another SD school in the Summit doesn't help with that? Not saying that it did or didn't happen, but to call it baseless is a stretch*.

*Obviously a much more complex situation than this, just the first grade version.

Yes, it is baseless. The MVFC football coaches were helpful in putting the deal together. The State had nothing to do with it.

Understand this: our legislators, as bad as I sometimes think they may be, are not like SOME legislators in ND (not mentioning names but the initials Al Carlson come to mind).

And if you're convinced there is some proof (and you continue to refuse to produce such proof), then think about this: maybe you're just in the middle of a bad dream and you're going to wake up as soon as you finish reading this message, just in time to hear that UND beat NDSU in football. (It's that kinda baseless.)

Durned conspiracy theorists anyway.

[JackJD]

Board of Regents had to give sign off approval and that took a few extra days. That is all the time that was needed. Yes, zoo you can tell me I'm wrong and I have no proof but there was a reason the Board of Regents didn't give immediate approval. They bought time for phone calls to get made.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with how it went down and I admire the state for getting involved to get their two biggest schools back together. It just sucks for NDSU cause unless there is a conference that comes calling with 3 openings, I feel the state of SD isn't letting SDSU and USD seperate again. To get this back on track, the Summit better expand now and Denver would be a good fit. Douple can't sit around and wait any longer.

Other than a post-negotiations stamp of approval, the State was not involved Grizzled. Zooropa is right. You guys up north have been under the influence of the craziness at UND -- it just doesn't work that way anywhere else.

and by the way, I have some prime ocean-front property for sale just south of Brookings.

[BisonJD]

Now comes Jay Bilas and ESPN advocating for a reduction in the size of Division 1 basketball programs. With all of the conference realignment going on, I hope the NCAA doesn't take the "opportunity" to do something this stupid and bite on this concept. Just two years ago they were discussing expanding the tournament...now they want to downsize the pool of participants. LEAVE IT ALONE! That being said, a conference merger with Horizon or securing a spot in the MVC may become necessary to stay in the conversation.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7908722&_slug_=reducing-size-division-make-better-ncaa-hoops-product-ncb&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7908722%26_slug_ %3dreducing-size-division-make-better-ncaa-hoops-product-ncb

[zooropa]

Now comes Jay Bilas and ESPN advocating for a reduction in the size of Division 1 basketball programs. With all of the conference realignment going on, I hope the NCAA doesn't take the "opportunity" to do something this stupid and bite on this concept. Just two years ago they were discussing expanding the tournament...now they want to downsize the pool of participants. LEAVE IT ALONE! That being said, a conference merger with Horizon or securing a spot in the MVC may become necessary to stay in the conversation.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7908722&_slug_=reducing-size-division-make-better-ncaa-hoops-product-ncb&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7908722%26_slug_ %3dreducing-size-division-make-better-ncaa-hoops-product-ncb

Jay Bilas also thinks that basketball and football players should be paid. His thinking on subjects is hardly indicative of how the NCAA sees it. And as long as the MBB tournament contributes over 90% of the NCAA's operating budget, the NCAA will avoid seriously upsetting this applecart.

[NDSUstudent]

Bilas is clueless and is nothing but a shill for the BCS schools. The smaller schools make the NCAA tournament interesting and they provide a ton of non-conference home games for the BCS schools to make money on.

[BisonJD]

Another good read on conference realignment from a "local" perspective (Sioux Falls Argus Leader). Vandrovec touches on the possiblility of the Horizon poaching Oakland from the Summit League, and Oakland's willingness to move on. The Summit needs to get aggressive fast.

http://www.argusleader.com/article/20120510/SPORTS02/305100028/Vandrovec-Conference-carousel-can-frustrating-follow?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s

[BisonJD]

Bilas is clueless and is nothing but a shill for the BCS schools. The smaller schools make the NCAA tournament interesting and they provide a ton of non-conference home games for the BCS schools to make money on.

AGREE.

When he sticks to basketball and the X & O s - he is very good. But you are right, he kisses the BCS Conferences' asses and plays to the big schools. Just another reason to hate Duke.

[DePereBisonFan]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league

"Kampe said he has talked to coaches in the Horizon League and all have been supportive of adding his program.
Has Kampe spoken to Detroit coach Ray McCallum about it?
"No, that is not a coach I've talked to about this," he said."

Interesting article. What's more interesting is that Greg Kampe seems to be disrespecting Detroit a bit - he hasn't talked with them, only with other schools in the Horizon, and yet is whining to the media about Detroit's role in leaving them out and offering reasons to the media why Oakland would fit in the Horizon.

Doesn't seem like the best way to start a relationship.

On another note, Southern Utah is not in the Summit anymore, so that point doesn't count. Would Robert Morris or IUPUI add more to the Horizon than Oakland?

[Tatanka]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league

"Kampe said he has talked to coaches in the Horizon League and all have been supportive of adding his program.
Has Kampe spoken to Detroit coach Ray McCallum about it?
"No, that is not a coach I've talked to about this," he said."

Interesting article. What's more interesting is that Greg Kampe seems to be disrespecting Detroit a bit - he hasn't talked with them, only with other schools in the Horizon, and yet is whining to the media about Detroit's role in leaving them out and offering reasons to the media why Oakland would fit in the Horizon.

Doesn't seem like the best way to start a relationship.

On another note, Southern Utah is not in the Summit anymore, so that point doesn't count. Would Robert Morris or IUPUI add more to the Horizon than Oakland?

Nice! Kampe knows who his competition is, and he's not about to give an ounce to them in any way shape or form. Very interesting...

[JSUBison]

It's hard to keep all the shuffling straight, but if Air Force moves their FB to the Big East, does the MWC allow them to keep their Olympics in the MWC, or would they be looking for a new home? Reason being that I think adding Denver and Air Force to the Summit wouldn't be a bad idea. It's a bit of a pipe dream, but conferences are changing daily, and stranger things have happened. Colorado is no further now then it was in the DII NCC days.

[zooropa]

It's hard to keep all the shuffling straight, but if Air Force moves their FB to the Big East, does the MWC allow them to keep their Olympics in the MWC, or would they be looking for a new home? Reason being that I think adding Denver and Air Force to the Summit wouldn't be a bad idea. It's a bit of a pipe dream, but conferences are changing daily, and stranger things have happened. Colorado is no further now then it was in the DII NCC days.
In fact, the AFA's AD wants the other sports in a more congenial conference, competition-wise.

But consider: If Oakland *is* invited to the Horizon, what happens next?

The Summit is sitting at 8 teams, which seems dangerous, but is it really?

Which of the 8 remaining schools would be most likely to be poached by another conference? None of them are attractive. And it's not like any of these schools would leave the Summit on spec, hoping that they'll land a spot in another, better, conference.

And you can talk about how NDSU should be looking elsewhere, well, when isn't it looking elsewhere? And how could insistently petitioning for membership in the MVC increase NDSU's odds of getting into the MVC? It brings absolutely nothing to the table. NDSU, like SDSU, is in the Summit for better or worse.

So, basically, you've got a stable 8--and the option to continue to look out for decent fits within the core of the conference.

[NDSUstudent]

Air Force and Denver would be a slam dunk, that said it is definitely a bit of a pipe dream to say the least. They would work beautifully as travel partners and add a lot to the conference.

[zooropa]

Air Force and Denver would be a slam dunk, that said it is definitely a bit of a pipe dream to say the least. They would work beautifully as travel partners and add a lot to the conference.

They would not add 'a lot' to the conference.

Their Summit sports aren't that great and neither school would add to the stability of the conference.

True, they would add a measure of prestige, but it would come along with a significant increase in travel costs and no appreciable gain in membership stability.

[DePereBisonFan]

But consider: If Oakland *is* invited to the Horizon, what happens next?

The Summit is sitting at 8 teams, which seems dangerous, but is it really?


Well, if IUPUI is looking to get out then we're down to 7.

[NDSUstudent]

They would not add 'a lot' to the conference.

Their Summit sports aren't that great and neither school would add to the stability of the conference.

True, they would add a measure of prestige, but it would come along with a significant increase in travel costs and no appreciable gain in membership stability.

Honestly it is a huge stretch to say that adding both would make for significant increase in travel. You fly into Denver, play both schools for basketball or volleyball or soccer and then fly out. I'm sure there are plenty of reasonably priced flights into Denver from most Summit League airports.

[tjbison]

Honestly it is a huge stretch to say that adding both would make for significant increase in travel. You fly into Denver, play both schools for basketball or volleyball or soccer and then fly out. I'm sure there are plenty of reasonably priced flights into Denver from most Summit League airports.

Flying for SDSU and USD is alot different than for NDSU, our kids can basically walk to the airport, bus rides to Sioux Falls for the other 2, but i agree went to Cali and Utah for years CO would be great

[roadwarrior]

I don't think Air Force and Denver would cause a significant increase in travel costs. Two teams roughly an hour apart is ideal for basketball and volleyball scheduling. You can get a direct flight to Denver from just about anywhere in the midwest.

[DePereBisonFan]

You know, part of the fun of Bisonville is the ability to dream and make up these conference scenarios. I haven't played any college football or basketball video games, but I wonder if they have the ability to enable the user to conference-shuffle and stuff like that. Can a player ever designate themselves as a conference commissioner and work accordingly?

Sorry...that may or may not be thread drift...

[zooropa]

On travel costs:

1 - you're replacing a bus trip for half of the Summit with a flight (Oakland out, AFA/Denver in). That's unquestionably an increase in travel costs, on a per mile/per student basis for over a hundred student athletes and staff at almost every SL school (25 WSOC, 25 softball, 25 baseball, 15 WBB, 15 MBB+coaches, SID staff, 20 VB, etc.) Even if there's no appreciable change in costs for the I-29 schools, there will be a significant change for WIU, IUPUI, IPFW.

2 - you're imposing huge travel costs on AFA & Denver, regardless of how much you want to minimize costs to the rest of the SL.

And finally, the WAC isn't going anywhere as long as it has an autobid so this is a more or less moot discussion. It'll almost certainly have to drop football, but the Big Sky can't absorb and the MWC/Big West/WCC don't want the remnants of the WAC.

[NDSUstudent]

On travel costs:

1 - you're replacing a bus trip for half of the Summit with a flight (Oakland out, AFA/Denver in). That's unquestionably an increase in travel costs, on a per mile/per student basis for over a hundred student athletes and staff at almost every SL school (25 WSOC, 25 softball, 25 baseball, 15 WBB, 15 MBB+coaches, SID staff, 20 VB, etc.) Even if there's no appreciable change in costs for the I-29 schools, there will be a significant change for WIU, IUPUI, IPFW.

2 - you're imposing huge travel costs on AFA & Denver, regardless of how much you want to minimize costs to the rest of the SL.

And finally, the WAC isn't going anywhere as long as it has an autobid so this is a more or less moot discussion. It'll almost certainly have to drop football, but the Big Sky can't absorb and the MWC/Big West/WCC don't want the remnants of the WAC.

Huge costs for Air Force and Denver? Compared to their current travel situations I'd call it a wash.

NDSU, SDSU, USD, UMKC and UNO don't ride a bus to Detroit. So again it is a bit of a wash. The Summit needs another baseball school if Oakland does leave, Air Force is better than adding UND and is on par with UNC.

If Idaho joins the Big Sky(they are talking about doing so, even if it is non-football) and Boise gets into the Big West the WAC is dead. Do you really think Denver would rather be in the Summit or a WAC that is made up of a collection of misfit toys(UVU, Texas Pan America, Cal Bakersfield, etc).

[zooropa]

Huge costs for Air Force and Denver? Compared to their current travel situations I'd call it a wash.

NDSU, SDSU, USD, UMKC and UNO don't ride a bus to Detroit. So again it is a bit of a wash.

If Idaho joins the Big Sky(they are talking about doing, even if it is non-football) and Boise gets into the Big West the WAC is dead. Do you really think Denver would rather be in the Summit or a WAC that is made up of a collection of misfit toys(UVU, Texas Pan America, Cal Bakersfield, etc).
AFA can bus to UNM, Colorado State and Wyoming--they're the equivalent of USD, UNO and UMKC for SDSU. Toss those three schools out, and you dramatically increase your budget, because now your nearest school, apart from Denver is 600+ miles away. It's not trivial. Would it trivially increase SDSU's budget to, say, join the Horizon League along with USD?

As far as Denver goes, maybe that *would* be a wash, but then what's your pitch to Denver? It's not like the Summit is that much more prestigious than the WAC.

And finally, I don't think the Big Sky wants Idaho, nor do I think that the Big West wants Boise State. What do either of those schools bring to those conferences, besides further dilution to the basketball money, and even tougher access to the basketball tournament?

[Grizzled]

AFA can bus to UNM, Colorado State and Wyoming--they're the equivalent of USD, UNO and UMKC for SDSU. Toss those three schools out, and you dramatically increase your budget, because now your nearest school, apart from Denver is 600+ miles away. It's not trivial. Would it trivially increase SDSU's budget to, say, join the Horizon League along with USD?

As far as Denver goes, maybe that *would* be a wash, but then what's your pitch to Denver? It's not like the Summit is that much more prestigious than the WAC.

And finally, I don't think the Big Sky wants Idaho, nor do I think that the Big West wants Boise State. What do either of those schools bring to those conferences, besides further dilution to the basketball money, and even tougher access to the basketball tournament?

The Big Sky was talking about Idaho way back when UND and SUU joined. I talked to someone in Montana with ties to the athletic program and this was part of their pitch along with San Jose St (which never worked out). I guess Fullerton is actually pretty smart when it comes to some of the conference stuff and he saw Idaho being left out on an island a year ago. I posted this way back than so to say the Big Sky doesn't want Idaho isn't accurate.

[zooropa]

The Big Sky was talking about Idaho way back when UND and SUU joined. I talked to someone in Montana with ties to the athletic program and this was part of their pitch along with San Jose St (which never worked out). I guess Fullerton is actually pretty smart when it comes to some of the conference stuff and he saw Idaho being left out on an island a year ago. I posted this way back than so to say the Big Sky doesn't want Idaho isn't accurate.

What does Idaho add to the conference? And please, don't tell me Fullerton's smart. They've got 11 schools competing for a single basketball bid and his solution is to make it 12? And I can't imagine that Idaho State is any too keen to let Idaho into the Big Sky, let alone Boise State. And what does the Big Sky have to offer Idaho? They've got a better shot at making the NCAAs in the remnants of the WAC plus Utah Valley.

And again, I would like to point out that since the NCAA started awarding auto bids to conference champs only one conference has folded, and that's the Southwest Conference, and that for reasons that were unique and clearly connected to massive NCAA sanctions on their bread and butter sport.

[coldspot]

apparently, UMKC was weighing the idea of adding baseball back in 2007. The addition of them would really solidify baseball in the conference and could ease some of the concerns about the stability of the sport

http://www.cstv.com/sports/c-rifle/stories/041807aaa.html

[dmksioux]

What does Idaho add to the conference? And please, don't tell me Fullerton's smart. They've got 11 schools competing for a single basketball bid and his solution is to make it 12? And I can't imagine that Idaho State is any too keen to let Idaho into the Big Sky, let alone Boise State. And what does the Big Sky have to offer Idaho? They've got a better shot at making the NCAAs in the remnants of the WAC plus Utah Valley.

And again, I would like to point out that since the NCAA started awarding auto bids to conference champs only one conference has folded, and that's the Southwest Conference, and that for reasons that were unique and clearly connected to massive NCAA sanctions on their bread and butter sport.

Getting Idaho into the Big Sky essentially means the WAC is dead which means there are two main all sports conferences in the West outside of the the PAC 10. The Big Sky and The MWC. That would elevate the profile of the Big Sky in the west and potentially mean more exposure, tv deals, etc.

[tjbison]

What does Idaho add to the conference? And please, don't tell me Fullerton's smart. They've got 11 schools competing for a single basketball bid and his solution is to make it 12? And I can't imagine that Idaho State is any too keen to let Idaho into the Big Sky, let alone Boise State. And what does the Big Sky have to offer Idaho? They've got a better shot at making the NCAAs in the remnants of the WAC plus Utah Valley.

And again, I would like to point out that since the NCAA started awarding auto bids to conference champs only one conference has folded, and that's the Southwest Conference, and that for reasons that were unique and clearly connected to massive NCAA sanctions on their bread and butter sport.

Fullerton even released a statement the Big Fluffy would take Idaho if they drpped to FCS, the Idaho President even released a letter to students and alum about possibly having to accept and take the step back to preserve the athletics at the university. The BSC wants Idaho its no secret

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/07/bmurphy/big_sky_commissioner_idahos_situation_top_fcs_heal thier_bottom_f

[zooropa]

Getting Idaho into the Big Sky essentially means the WAC is dead which means there are two main all sports conferences in the West outside of the the PAC 10. The Big Sky and The MWC. That would elevate the profile of the Big Sky in the west and potentially mean more exposure, tv deals, etc.

First of all, there's no TV money for the Big Sky. None. Who in what major metro area gives a flying flapdoodle about any Big Sky school?

Secondly, if the WAC is dead, where are these other schools going to go? You think they're all going to end up in other conferences? Independents? Really? While the WAC has a NCAA tournament auto-bid?

Of course Doug Fullerton may be dumb enough to launch the largest single-bid basketball conference in the as yet discovered universe. He may be dumb enough to insist on an all-sports membership for Idaho, but if he does, I can guarantee you it won't last.

Twelve teams competing for a single bid in the NCAAs. Good grief. Yeah. That's way better than staying in the WAC. :rolleyes:

[zooropa]

Fullerton even released a statement the Big Fluffy would take Idaho if they drpped to FCS, the Idaho President even released a letter to students and alum about possibly having to accept and take the step back to preserve the athletics at the university. The BSC wants Idaho its no secret

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/07/bmurphy/big_sky_commissioner_idahos_situation_top_fcs_heal thier_bottom_f
Again, if they take Idaho, it's because they're dumb, not because they're smart.

[JSUBison]

First of all, there's no TV money for the Big Sky. None. Who in what major metro area gives a flying flapdoodle about any Big Sky school?

Secondly, if the WAC is dead, where are these other schools going to go? You think they're all going to end up in other conferences? Independents? Really? While the WAC has a NCAA tournament auto-bid?

Of course Doug Fullerton may be dumb enough to launch the largest single-bid basketball conference in the as yet discovered universe. He may be dumb enough to insist on an all-sports membership for Idaho, but if he does, I can guarantee you it won't last.

Twelve teams competing for a single bid in the NCAAs. Good grief. Yeah. That's way better than staying in the WAC. :rolleyes:

Other schools? If no other teams leave, the WAC will consist of a grand total of four teams for the 2013 season: Idaho, New Mexico State, Denver, and Seattle. Not a viable conference, there needs to be 7 teams. I guess the WAC could invite the remaining crap schools in the Great West/Independants but there isn't much to choose from with Longwood going to Big South and Houston Baptist going to Southland. I think these are the available teams:

Chicago State (:rofl:)
NJIT
Cal-Bakersfield
Utah Valley
Pan American

I think Idaho, NMSU and Denver will do just about anything to get into a respectable conference before adding those junior colleges I listed. I don't know much about Seattle, other than they used to be in the WCC. I think I read somewhere there may be some politics or bad blood between Seattle and the WCC.

[zooropa]

Other schools? If no other teams leave, the WAC will consist of a grand total of four teams for the 2013 season: Idaho, New Mexico State, Denver, and Seattle. Not a viable conference, there needs to be 7 teams. I guess the WAC could invite the remaining crap schools in the Great West/Independants but there isn't much to choose from with Longwood going to Big South and Houston Baptist going to Southland. I think these are the available teams:

Chicago State (:rofl:)
NJIT
Cal-Bakersfield
Utah Valley
Pan American

I think Idaho, NMSU and Denver will do just about anything to get into a respectable conference before adding those junior colleges I listed. I don't know much about Seattle, other than they used to be in the WCC. I think I read somewhere there may be some politics or bad blood between Seattle and the WCC.
I don't see the WCC adding Boise State, so your putative WAC is: Idaho, Boise State, NMSU, Denver, Seattle, add UVU and Cal-Bakersfield and you have your seven. Seven schools with an auto-bid.

Is it an ugly conference? You bet it is. But the conferences surrounding it are far from stable.

Essentially, there's this move to squeeze six conferences into five in the mountain/coast region, and it's not going to work long term. The sensible response is to maintain the auto-bid for that sixth conference, and bide your time knowing that you'll be able to pick up members sooner or later.

Of course, nothing about this has been sensible, so.......

[tjbison]

Again, if they take Idaho, it's because they're dumb, not because they're smart.

My point in he post was in response to you saying the fluffy doesn't want Idaho when it's been made clear they will take them in a heartbeat

[zooropa]

My point in he post was in response to you saying the fluffy doesn't want Idaho when it's been made clear they will take them in a heartbeat

So I see. And apparently they're willing to let Fullerton lead them around by the nose. And, hey, who wouldn't after his triumphant acquisition of UND?

[NDSUstudent]

I do agree that Fulerton is not really a visionary, he panicked and added SUU and UND which has left the Big Sky stuck with a school that is out on an island. That said he is absolutely right on target about bringing in Idaho, that school is a great fit for the Big Sky. Perhaps some of these other WAC leftovers would be as well but there isnt' really much room for them, that said if a few votes go against UND in the coming months maybe there might be some more room for them....

[ndsubison1]

Again, if they take Idaho, it's because they're dumb, not because they're smart.

why would that be dumb? Most conferences would take a team from a better conference and I believe Idaho was in the big sky at one point. Traveling isn't as big of a deal as it once was. And air force would be a great get for the summit

[tjbison]

why would that be dumb? Most conferences would take a team from a better conference and I believe Idaho was in the big sky at one point. Traveling isn't as big of a deal as it once was. And air force would be a great get for the summit

Correct, they were a charter member of the Big Sky left in 1996 for the FBS, pretty Sure Idaho St will like the idea of another bus trip instead of plane ride, because lets face it where these two schools are in Idaho its not cheap to fly, Pocatello and Moscow are nothing beautiful

[dmksioux]

]I do agree that Fulerton is not really a visionary, he panicked and added SUU and UND which has left the Big Sky stuck with a school that is out on an island. [/B]That said he is absolutely right on target about bringing in Idaho, that school is a great fit for the Big Sky. Perhaps some of these other WAC leftovers would be as well but there isnt' really much room for them, that said if a few votes go against UND in the coming months maybe there might be some more room for them....

As opposed to the visionary Summit League Commissioner, Tom Douple? He decided to make the Summit League center on the I-29 Corridor and basically upset a majority of the schools. Since the Dakota schools arrived in the Summit: Centenary has left, Oral Roberts is leaving, Oakland is hoping like crazy to get into the Horizon, and there are also stories about IPFW and IUPUI wanting to get into the Horizon. It appears as though the Summit League is becoming the NCC.2 which isn't necessarily bad...I guess. Meanwhile, the Big Sky is growing it's brand which doe include a deal with Root Sports, which may not make them alot of money, but it does increase exposure and help to grow the brand. If UND would ever have the inkling to move up to FBS, I know, it's a ways off, but it would be easier to pull off in the West than it would be in the Midwest or east just for the fact that there aren't as many DI schools in the West. Anyways, it's nice to know NDSU is happy where they are and UND is happy where they are at...

[TAILG8R]

As opposed to the visionary Summit League Commissioner, Tom Douple? He decided to make the Summit League center on the I-29 Corridor and basically upset a majority of the schools. Since the Dakota schools arrived in the Summit: Centenary has left, Oral Roberts is leaving, Oakland is hoping like crazy to get into the Horizon, and there are also stories about IPFW and IUPUI wanting to get into the Horizon. It appears as though the Summit League is becoming the NCC.2 which isn't necessarily bad...I guess. Meanwhile, the Big Sky is growing it's brand which doe include a deal with Root Sports, which may not make them alot of money, but it does increase exposure and help to grow the brand. If UND would ever have the inkling to move up to FBS, I know, it's a ways off, but it would be easier to pull off in the West than it would be in the Midwest or east just for the fact that there aren't as many DI schools in the West. Anyways, it's nice to know NDSU is happy where they are and UND is happy where they are at...

So UND is moving West?

[dmksioux]

So UND is moving West?

Their conference affiliation is in the West...

[TAILG8R]

Their conference affiliation is in the West...

So the entire conference would go FBS together?

[aces1180]

Their conference affiliation is in the West...

What happens when the Big Sky boots UND on its ass because of the sanctions? Good luck with that...

[dmksioux]

If the Big Sky boots UND, then my point is mute. As of now, I don't think it's going to happen. That could all change come June...eventually UND will drop the name and I believe the Big Sky will wait until next year before making any decisions.

I don't believe the Big Sky will go FBS en masse. I like the fact that UND is in the West (which initially I did not, I prefered the Summit) and can hopefully attach themselves with the Montana Schools. Fullerton is positioning the Big Sky to at least be a part of the second tier DI schools should the BCS schools decide to form their own DI league.

[Bison bison]

As opposed to the visionary Summit League Commissioner, Tom Douple? He decided to make the Summit League center on the I-29 Corridor and basically upset a majority of the schools. Since the Dakota schools arrived in the Summit: Centenary has left, Oral Roberts is leaving, Oakland is hoping like crazy to get into the Horizon, and there are also stories about IPFW and IUPUI wanting to get into the Horizon. It appears as though the Summit League is becoming the NCC.2 which isn't necessarily bad...I guess. Meanwhile, the Big Sky is growing it's brand which doe include a deal with Root Sports, which may not make them alot of money, but it does increase exposure and help to grow the brand. If UND would ever have the inkling to move up to FBS, I know, it's a ways off, but it would be easier to pull off in the West than it would be in the Midwest or east just for the fact that there aren't as many DI schools in the West. Anyways, it's nice to know NDSU is happy where they are and UND is happy where they are at...

This post is a hoot.

The Summit has concentrated its geographic footprint - under the direction of member Presidents - Double has no vote. What's happened is a good thing.

Every school in the Summit would like to be in a higher profile league that isn't unique to Douple.

Douple was smart/lucky not to get involved in the UND fiasco.

Similarly Fullerton was reckless in inviting every FCS school in the west to join the Big Sky. It has done nothing to strengthen the stability of the league and will lead to a significant increase in travel costs for most members.

UND is going to be spending big bucks on travel.

[dmksioux]

This post is a hoot.

The Summit has concentrated its geographic footprint - under the direction of member Presidents - Double has no vote. What's happened is a good thing.

Every school in the Summit would like to be in a higher profile league that isn't unique to Douple.

Douple was smart/lucky not to get involved in the UND fiasco.

Similarly Fullerton was reckless in inviting every FCS school in the west to join the Big Sky. It has done nothing to strengthen the stability of the league and will lead to a significant increase in travel costs for most members.

UND is going to be spending big bucks on travel.

Perhaps those Presidents voted they way they did because they all understand that the Summit League is a temporary league and that a majority of the schools view it as a temporary stopping point until they get into a better league? Like I said, NDSU is happy where they are at and UND is happy where they are at. So no reason to continue to bash each other I guess...

[zooropa]

What more can you say, NDB2, to this level of delusion? I can't rep you, but I would if I could.

You're spot on with everything. Predictably, some are treating reckless expansion as though it were a good thing, and conservative stewardship as incompetence. And these people can't be reasoned with. 'Having a dozen teams competing for one post season bid in *every* team sport except football is good for those programs! The only thing better than having a dozen teams competing for one spot would be *more* than a dozen teams!!!!'

[zooropa]

Perhaps those Presidents voted they way they did
Perhaps a mind-controlling alien was responsible. Perhaps perhaps perhaps. The prima facie explanation suffices. No need to introduce bizarre and self-serving (e.g. 'the Big Sky presidents voted for expansion because they're visionary geniuses, the Summit presidents did nothing because they don't care') conspiracy theories.

[abc123]

What more can you say, NDB2, to this level of delusion? I can't rep you, but I would if I could.

You're spot on with everything. Predictably, some are treating reckless expansion as though it were a good thing, and conservative stewardship as incompetence. And these people can't be reasoned with. 'Having a dozen teams competing for one post season bid in *every* team sport except football is good for those programs! The only thing better than having a dozen teams competing for one spot would be *more* than a dozen teams!!!!'

I don't disagree that having that many teams competing for an auto-bid is ideal, but on the other hand being within shouting distance of the minimum schools to keep your auto-bid with members openly talking to other conferences and pining to leave sure isn't the best situation to be in either. It doesn't feel like a safe spot to be with the every changing conference landscape, especially being a conference that has a track record of teams having no desire to stay in (almost 20 teams have been part of the conference and left since it formed a little over 20 years ago). Maybe Douple has a plan and I just haven't saw anything. But as dmksioux said, NDSU and UND seem to be happy where they are, just a matter of opinion.

[NorthernBison]

The Big Sky is infinitely more stable than the Summit. (I don't know how anybody could argue that)

It wasn't that long ago that the Summit was at 10 members competing for one autobid. (So what if the Big Sky is at 12? Really that much different?)

Fullerton's plan for football expansion was partly aimed at stabilizing FCS football in the Western US and creating a conference to rival the larger Eastern conferences. Time will tell if he succeeded in that last one. If I hear anybody on here complaining in the future about the BSC getting more playoff teams than the MVFC, I'll chalk it up as a win for Fullerton.

[Bison bison]

UND is happy where they are at.


UND is a queef away from becoming an DI independent, I can see how people would think things are slendid.

[Grizzled]

First of all, there's no TV money for the Big Sky. None. Who in what major metro area gives a flying flapdoodle about any Big Sky school?

Secondly, if the WAC is dead, where are these other schools going to go? You think they're all going to end up in other conferences? Independents? Really? While the WAC has a NCAA tournament auto-bid?

Of course Doug Fullerton may be dumb enough to launch the largest single-bid basketball conference in the as yet discovered universe. He may be dumb enough to insist on an all-sports membership for Idaho, but if he does, I can guarantee you it won't last.

Twelve teams competing for a single bid in the NCAAs. Good grief. Yeah. That's way better than staying in the WAC. :rolleyes:

The WAC is dead, there is nothing left so the Big Sky is much better than staying in the WAC. And to be honest, I've said it before, I'd rather be in a stable conference with 12 teams than a revolving door with 8. Your point of 12 teams for one bid, every season in these conferences there are 4-5 teams competing for one spot anyway. No matter how much you wish it the Summit is not going to be a two bid conference if it had 8 team or 12 teams. This year was as close as it will ever be and it didn't happen. Give me stability and 4 more team to compete with over another thread about a Summit team leaving. Gotta win your conference to get to the dance in either league.

[zooropa]

The WAC is dead

If the WAC goes, there will be too many D-1 schools for the number of conferences in the west. That will mean continued instability. If anyone thinks that the WAC going away will make for more stability..............

Mark my words: If the WAC goes, within 5-7 years there will again be a sixth D-1 conference in the west. And it may even be called the WAC.

---

And to the notion of stability: Would someone please enlighten me as to what SUU, UND and Idaho *contribute* to the stability of the Big Sky Conf.?

Answer: Nothing.

The basis for Big Sky stability has been sponsorship of FCS football. That's it. That's the only thing they've got holding those schools in the conference. Understanding that, it's easy to see why UND, SUU & Idaho add nothing to the Big Sky. The Big Sky isn't stable because of the schools in the conference, it's stable because of what the conference offers.

Knowing that SUU was never going to be snapped up by another FCS conference, why did the Big Sky proactively invite SUU before either of the Montanas left? Ditto the Cal schools. Why proactively increase the number of sharks in the water?

To compete with the CAA? Well, look how long the CAA's experiment with 12 teams lasted. And look at how stable the football membership in the CAA has been since then.

[zooropa]

members openly talking to other conferences
The only Summit school that is even borderline attractive to another conference right now is Oakland. And even at that, Oakland stands to gain a lot more than the Horizon League. Oakland is not going to bring more tournament shares to the Horizon, they'll compete for the same single share that a post-Butler Horizon is in line for most years.

And even if Oakland leaves, what are the next two schools that will leave, and where will they go? IUPUI & IPFW to the Horizon? I don't think so. UMKC and WIU to the Valley? I don't think so.

Sure, some have speculated about a 12 team Horizon League with IUPUI & IPFW, but unlike Fullerton, the Horizon league commish is smart enough to refrain from inviting available schools just because they're in the same vicinity as member schools.

[Answer Guy]

The Big Sky is infinitely more stable than the Summit. (I don't know how anybody could argue that)

It wasn't that long ago that the Summit was at 10 members competing for one autobid. (So what if the Big Sky is at 12? Really that much different?)

Fullerton's plan for football expansion was partly aimed at stabilizing FCS football in the Western US and creating a conference to rival the larger Eastern conferences. Time will tell if he succeeded in that last one. If I hear anybody on here complaining in the future about the BSC getting more playoff teams than the MVFC, I'll chalk it up as a win for Fullerton.

You seem so rational. I question whether you're really a Bison fan.

[zooropa]

Fullerton's plan for football expansion was partly aimed at stabilizing FCS football in the Western US

And the risk the Great West posed to the Big Sky was what, exactly?

I mean in your first sentence you talk about how the Big Sky is 'infinitely' more stable, then in your third paragraph, you talk about how Fullerton was interested in 'stabilizing' things. So which is it? Was the Big Sky unstable, or was Fullerton addressing an imaginary problem?

I will answer this question for you.

Fullerton was addressing an imaginary problem.

The Big Sky has been a very stable conference. Like the municipal liquor store in a small town, it's hard to go out of business when you've got a monopoly.

Fullerton apparently has no idea that as long as the Big Sky sponsors FCS football, the conference will be assured of members, and can therefore be selective about the schools it lets in.

Side point:

I'm not going to argue Big Sky stability vs. the Summit. It has unquestionably been a more stable league, but that's due to football sponsorship--nothing more.

This is also why the Summit has explored adding FCS football, and why it's not out of the question for them to consider pulling a CAA style powerplay on the MVFC somewhere down the line.

With five of the ten MVFC members, the Summit League has, theoretically, the ability to invite UND and guarantee them a spot in either the MVFC or Summit football. How it would work is this:

Summit members to the rest of the MVFC:

"We want to invite UND. You have two choices: Add them to the MVFC, or we will leave the MVFC and the Summit will begin sponsoring football. We will have the six members necessary for an auto-bid, you will not. You can either join us in the Summit, or accept UND into the MVFC. What will it be?"

I'm not saying it will happen, and I certainly wouldn't advocate it given the current disaster area that is UND athletics, but it is, as it were, the Summit's ace in the hole. If they want to add UND and UND wants in, they can get a home for UND's football program. (I think Hammersmith pointed out that the Summit, with USD in the MVFC, is now in a position to do this).

[NorthernBison]

And the risk the Great West posed to the Big Sky was what, exactly?

I mean in your first sentence you talk about how the Big Sky is 'infinitely' more stable, then in your third paragraph, you talk about how Fullerton was interested in 'stabilizing' things. So which is it? Was the Big Sky unstable, or was Fullerton addressing an imaginary problem?

I will answer this question for you.

Fullerton was addressing an imaginary problem.

The Big Sky has been a very stable conference. Like the municipal liquor store in a small town, it's hard to go out of business when you've got a monopoly.

Fullerton apparently has no idea that as long as the Big Sky sponsors FCS football, the conference will be assured of members, and can therefore be selective about the schools it lets in.



The GWFC posed no "threat" to the BSC. The writing was on the wall though that the GWFC would not last. Cal Poly and UC Davis were extremely vulnerable and SUU and USD had homes for everything but football. UND was really in limbo and definitely the worst off of the five. But make no mistake, all five had real issues with football scheduling and travel budgets, etc.

Was Fullerton addressing an imaginary problem? I don't think so because it was becoming increasingly difficult for the 5 GWFC programs to keep playing football. Without programs in the West, the BSC WOULD suffer. Adding all five to the BSC in one fashion or another was designed to give the Conference a much stronger argument for another invite (or two) when the NCAA field was picked. Especially when you consider the relative success of the California schools and the improvement at SUU. We'll see in the next few years if that turns out to be true.

Fullerton certainly could NOT be assured of additional members if those schools shut down the football programs and those decisions were likely to be coming up if no action was taken.

What really screwed up Fullerton's deal was UND jumping the gun when they got the invite. That might be the trigger that allowed the Summit to keep USD (we've been through that and you and I agree how and why that happened). If UND had waited through the weekend, I think USD would probably have had little choice but to take the BSC offer. That's a big win for the Summit because we wouldn't be real comfortable right now with one less team in the League.

[zooropa]

it was becoming increasingly difficult for the 5 GWFC programs to keep playing football. Without programs in the West, the BSC WOULD suffer.

Why? A lack of nearby out of conference options? Inviting these schools into the conference doesn't solve that problem. In fact it takes a potential problem and makes it a guaranteed problem. Additionally, having a gigantic and sprawling conference home is no guarantee that football programs will be safe--look at the CAA.

Furthermore, before expansion, the Big Sky would have to lose 4 FB programs before their auto bid was at risk. That's a pretty unlikely scenario, and adding schools in order to forestall that unlikely scenario just makes no sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that 'UND jumped the gun when they got the invite'. Rather, they didn't condition UND's acceptance on USD's acceptance. It was Fullerton's/the Big Sky's decision to invite them separately.

[NorthernBison]

Why? A lack of nearby out of conference options? Inviting these schools into the conference doesn't solve that problem. In fact it takes a potential problem and makes it a guaranteed problem. Additionally, having a gigantic and sprawling conference home is no guarantee that football programs will be safe--look at the CAA.

Furthermore, before expansion, the Big Sky would have to lose 4 FB programs before their auto bid was at risk. That's a pretty unlikely scenario, and adding schools in order to forestall that unlikely scenario just makes no sense.

Also, I wouldn't say that 'UND jumped the gun when they got the invite'. Rather, they didn't condition UND's acceptance on USD's acceptance. It was Fullerton's/the Big Sky's decision to invite them separately.

BSC move was to preserve programs in the West. They weren't concerned about the autobid and more teams didn't create a problem. Why would it?

UND did jump the gun. They couldn't wait to cancel the Summit visit and rub it in Douple's face. That weekend provided an opening that worked out for the Summit AND USD.

[zooropa]

BSC move was to preserve programs in the West. They weren't concerned about the autobid and more teams didn't create a problem. Why would it?

UND did jump the gun. They couldn't wait to cancel the Summit visit and rub it in Douple's face. That weekend provided an opening that worked out for the Summit AND USD.

I'm having a terrible time understanding your line of thinking.

You say that the Big Sky wasn't concerned about the autobid, which means they weren't concerned about losing the autobid, in which case, why would they give a hoot what happened to SUU, Cal-Poly and UC-Davis?

Conversely, if they were concerned about losing the autobid, why didn't they wait and see what the Montanas did before committing themselves to inviting new schools to the conference?

--

Also, I don't buy this notion that 'more teams doesn't create a problem'. Where did the MWC come from? A bunch of disaffected WAC members.

--

Further, regardless of what UND did, the Big Sky definitely erred by admitting UND without USD. They were certainly free to condition UND's acceptance on USD's acceptance. They didn't and this is what they got.

[EndZoneQB]

I'm having a terrible time understanding your line of thinking.

You say that the Big Sky wasn't concerned about the autobid, which means they weren't concerned about losing the autobid, in which case, why would they give a hoot what happened to SUU, Cal-Poly and UC-Davis?

Conversely, if they were concerned about losing the autobid, why didn't they wait and see what the Montanas did before committing themselves to inviting new schools to the conference?

--

Also, I don't buy this notion that 'more teams doesn't create a problem'. Where did the MWC come from? A bunch of disaffected WAC members.

--

Further, regardless of what UND did, the Big Sky definitely erred by admitting UND without USD. They were certainly free to condition UND's acceptance on USD's acceptance. They didn't and this is what they got.

The only way you have to gain by adding teams with reckless abandon is a potential BCS bid for FBS teams, aka the MWC, and I'd say they have at least cherry picked teams that could potentially aid them in that quest.

[NorthernBison]

I'm having a terrible time understanding your line of thinking.

You say that the Big Sky wasn't concerned about the autobid, which means they weren't concerned about losing the autobid, in which case, why would they give a hoot what happened to SUU, Cal-Poly and UC-Davis?

Conversely, if they were concerned about losing the autobid, why didn't they wait and see what the Montanas did before committing themselves to inviting new schools to the conference?

--

Also, I don't buy this notion that 'more teams doesn't create a problem'. Where did the MWC come from? A bunch of disaffected WAC members.

--

Further, regardless of what UND did, the Big Sky definitely erred by admitting UND without USD. They were certainly free to condition UND's acceptance on USD's acceptance. They didn't and this is what they got.

You brought up the autobid. That has zero relevance in the decision to add or not add.

The Big Sky move as it regards football was based almost exclusively on Fullerton's belief that a western "super conference" was a good idea. But, they did add Poly and Davis well before asking the other three. That indicates at least some desire to make sure the FCS didn't go backwards in the west. So, there were a couple things at work there.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think a 11 or 12 team all sports conference is reckless expansion. Especially when the Summit was 10 not long ago.

Why is a 13 team BSC terrible but a 10 team MVFC is super? Especially when the playoff field is soon to be 24.

This all started out as a discussion about the Summit. Nobody has yet explained why the Summit shouldn't be looking hard at some additions. Let's be honest, we are in the conference of "misfit schools". Everybody in the conference is just waiting for an invite to somewhere else. Not a great long term outlook

[Hammersmith]

Large conferences are unstable. It's as close to a proven fact as you're going to get in this world of conference affiliations. Has there ever been a DI conference that passed 12 teams that didn't fall apart within 10 years? In recent memory, I'm thinking WAC, Big East, and CAA football. I don't believe many of the recent BCS moves will work in the long-term, but only time will tell in those cases.

Fullerton wasn't trying to save western FCS football or any of that crap. He bought into the WAC/Pac-16 idea that bigger was better and saw an opportunity to cripple the MVFC & Summit at the same time. He sold his idea to the conference presidents by focusing on reduced travel costs and increased FCS tourney bids. Well, Douple and Patty V. acted fast enough to stop his gambit and now the Sky is stuck in no-man's land with no easy way out. Going bigger yet is not the correct answer, but I'll bet money that that's what Fullerton will end up trying. And it's going to blow up the conference within a decade. The supposed stability of the Big Sky is now on a countdown timer.

The correct move is to cut UND loose and stop courting Idaho. Stay at 10/12 and call it a day. If you can split football into divisions and still keep everyone happy with the schedules, go for it. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think they were leaning that way before the WAC collapse. Now they think Idaho is in play, so they'll hold onto UND in anticipation of the 12/14 split they were looking for with USD. And it's going to blow up in their face in 5-10 years.

As for the Summit, I think we may be nearing a period of stability. I agree with zoo on the departure prospects: only Oakland is in play. The Horizon isn't interested in IUPUI or IPFW. No one is interested in WIU, UMKC. The same goes for UNO and the Dakota schools. In 5-10 years, NDSU & SDSU have the potential to be attractive to more than the Big Sky, but that's only a chance and far from a certainty. If Oakland does get a Horizon invite, we can go after a football school and get UND along with it(once they've gotten the nickname situation fixed). A 12-team MVFC is pushing the danger zone, but I think it could work in a divisional Summit/MVC format. Maybe even a formal split and permanent scheduling agreement in order to get two autobids.

And what's wrong with the NCC 2.0 thing? That's what we wanted when this whole DI thing started a decade ago. We wanted the top NCC teams to move up as a group and join with some existing DI teams in our region to form a new DI conference. Well, UND(TMWTFN) managed to screw up the timing, but we're back on that original track. I still look to the MVC for our next goal, but we need a stable place to prove ourselves. The new Summit is giving us that. I would prefer a ten-team Summit, but even eight would be okay for a few years. I make no bones that I think UND will be a good selection eventually, but we may need an eastern team to replace Oakland if they get their Horizon wish.

You need three things for long-term conference stability: Schools with similar missions, similar profiles/sizes, and geographical proximity. That's how conferences like the Big Ten, Ivy League, and WCC stay mostly unchanged for almost a century. The Dakota schools will never be in that kind of conference. Within our region, the schools with similar missions are of vastly different sizes(UMTC, UW, NU, etc.), and the schools of similar size have different missions(SCSU, UNO, UMD, etc.). Even the closest schools with a similar profile(UMT & MSU) are really in a different geographical region(Rocky Mountain vs. Great Plains). We just have to do the best we can with what's available, and I am convinced the Summit is the best choice for now.

Wow, that post went way too long. I blame Ike*.

*Military Channel is on in the background.

[JSUBison]

And the risk the Great West posed to the Big Sky was what, exactly?

I mean in your first sentence you talk about how the Big Sky is 'infinitely' more stable, then in your third paragraph, you talk about how Fullerton was interested in 'stabilizing' things. So which is it? Was the Big Sky unstable, or was Fullerton addressing an imaginary problem?

I will answer this question for you.

Fullerton was addressing an imaginary problem.

The Big Sky has been a very stable conference. Like the municipal liquor store in a small town, it's hard to go out of business when you've got a monopoly.

Fullerton apparently has no idea that as long as the Big Sky sponsors FCS football, the conference will be assured of members, and can therefore be selective about the schools it lets in.

Side point:

I'm not going to argue Big Sky stability vs. the Summit. It has unquestionably been a more stable league, but that's due to football sponsorship--nothing more.

This is also why the Summit has explored adding FCS football, and why it's not out of the question for them to consider pulling a CAA style powerplay on the MVFC somewhere down the line.

With five of the ten MVFC members, the Summit League has, theoretically, the ability to invite UND and guarantee them a spot in either the MVFC or Summit football. How it would work is this:

Summit members to the rest of the MVFC:

"We want to invite UND. You have two choices: Add them to the MVFC, or we will leave the MVFC and the Summit will begin sponsoring football. We will have the six members necessary for an auto-bid, you will not. You can either join us in the Summit, or accept UND into the MVFC. What will it be?"

I'm not saying it will happen, and I certainly wouldn't advocate it given the current disaster area that is UND athletics, but it is, as it were, the Summit's ace in the hole. If they want to add UND and UND wants in, they can get a home for UND's football program. (I think Hammersmith pointed out that the Summit, with USD in the MVFC, is now in a position to do this).

Am I missing a school or something? The MVFC is composed of 4 Summit, 5 MVC, and 1 Horizon.

NDSU
SDSU
USD
Western Illinois

Now if UNO was to bring back football, I think the Summit would be able to secure a spot in the MVFC for UNO. UNO dropping football was a blunder on so many different levels and is worthy of it's own thread.

If we get just get UMKC to add football then we'd be cooking with butter. Imagine all the tv sets between Omaha and Kansas City. Summit to FBS. :hide:

[Hammersmith]

Am I missing a school or something? The MVFC is composed of 4 Summit, 5 MVC, and 1 Horizon.

NDSU
SDSU
USD
Western Illinois

Now if UNO was to bring back football, I think the Summit would be able to secure a spot in the MVFC for UNO. UNO dropping football was a blunder on so many different levels and is worthy of it's own thread.

If we get just get UMKC to add football then we'd be cooking with butter. Imagine all the tv sets between Omaha and Kansas City. Summit to FBS. :hide:
The scenario goes like this:

The Summit starts at nine schools(including Oakland), with the four FB schools you mentioned. Then Oakland gets a Horizon invite and leaves. With the Summit now at eight schools, they bide their time and make overtures to select schools, including those that offer football. A football school is interested but they need a home for their FB program. At this point, the Summit brings UND or another FB school into the discussion. The Summit promises a football home to these schools in exchange for membership. Now the Summit is at ten schools with six of them having FB. The Summit tells the MVFC to either accept the two new Summit schools into the MFVC, or the four existing Summit schools will leave the MVFC to form Summit football. At that point the MVFC no longer has a choice. Without the four Summit schools, the MVFC isn't really a viable conference. The Summit also puts out an offer for any MVC football school to come over to the Summit for football. If even one school chooses to do that, the MVFC is dead and all the rest have no choice but to follow over. Only YSU would have another option(the depleted CAA). The scenario is a little too close to Mutually Assured Distruction for anyone's taste, but a similar situation occurred during the changeover from A-10 football to CAA football and it might have succeeded in the long-term had the CAA not continued to expand.

[zooropa]

The Big Sky move as it regards football was based almost exclusively on Fullerton's belief that a western "super conference" was a good idea.

I understand what he was thinking. However, like Hammersmith, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would think this was a good idea.

[zooropa]

A football school is interested but they need a home for their FB program. At this point, the Summit brings UND or another FB school into the discussion. The Summit promises a football home to these schools in exchange for membership. Now the Summit is at ten schools with six of them having FB.

Ah. Thanks. I had forgotten that there needed to be a second team....

[zooropa]

UNO dropping football was a blunder on so many different levels and is worthy of it's own thread.
Oh why not toss that subject into this 'mystery meat' topic?

UNO football was struggling to draw even 4k to home games, and the school has a mammoth Title IX issue. I don't think they could do FCS football.

[NorthernBison]

I understand what he was thinking. However, like Hammersmith, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would think this was a good idea.

I think Fullerton and the Big Sky Presidents were looking at a couple things. First of all, the changes in conference affiliation were constantly changing and every day seemed to bring a new announcement that was often a total surprise. I read a lot of specualtion from National writers and from message board gurus and NOBODY predicted some of the things that ultimately happened. I think the Big Sky was trying to be proactive in positioning themselves (some can call it panic too).

The second thing they were looking at was competing against "Eastern Bias" and eliminating the GWFC from playoff contention by absorbing them. The reality was going to remain that Western Football was unlikely to get more than 3 or possibly 4 bids even with a 20 team bracket. Maybe Fullerton was thinking of killing two birds with one stone by inviting Poly, Davis, and UND and making them earn a spot if they were worthy.

I think you are correct about Oakland being the only Summit program attractive to other conferences. That says quite a bit about the League. I also believe that NDSU is WAY down the list of attractive programs and there is no way our conference mates require a "package deal" if they happen to get an invite somewhere. We might as well get used to the Summit for the long haul. That's not totally bad. We have a pretty good run of success across the sports and should be top dog in most for a long time.

I don't see much chance of UND being a Summit member. Maybe the BSC has a surprise for us but there is about zero chance of the nickname issue still being alive on June 30. It will either be killed by the June 12 vote or the Supreme Court will declare the Law Unconstitutional and the SBoHE will order it retired. That will effectively end the saga. The BSC COULD still boot UND but that would go against everything they have said publicly. I just don't expect that to happen.

[Bison bison]

there is about zero chance of the nickname issue still being alive on June 30.

NorthernBison, I'd like to be the first to welcome you back to Earth - you've obviously been on a different planet for the past seven years.

[tony]

NorthernBison, I'd like to be the first to welcome you back to Earth - you've obviously been on a different planet for the past seven years.

Yeah, I wouldn't put the popcorn away yet. There's the June vote. If that passes, it may or may not be ruled unconstitutional. And that's in no way certain. Of course, if the ballot deal doesn't pass, that's definitely a nail in the nickname's coffin.

No matter what happens this summer, isn't there still a constitutional amendment vote in November?

[Bison bison]

You bet your a##.

[roadwarrior]

No matter what happens this summer, isn't there still a constitutional amendment vote in November?

Those petitions haven't been submitted yet.

[zooropa]

I think the Big Sky was trying to be proactive in positioning themselves (some can call it panic too).

The second thing they were looking at was competing against "Eastern Bias" and eliminating the GWFC from playoff contention by absorbing them. The reality was going to remain that Western Football was unlikely to get more than 3 or possibly 4 bids even with a 20 team bracket. Maybe Fullerton was thinking of killing two birds with one stone by inviting Poly, Davis, and UND and making them earn a spot if they were worthy.

And my response to that line of thinking (theirs, not yours), is that the Montanas to FBS thing wasn't a startling or novel idea. The conf. should have had a backup plan in place, but should not have, IMO, acted on it, unless the contingency arose. But that's just me.

--

I think the idea of eliminating the GWFC makes a certain amount of sense as a rationalization--as long as you're only talking about prestige.

In economic terms, the FCS playoffs aren't revenue generators for the conference or, indeed, for some of the schools.

Therefore, expanding in order to enhance the playoff profile and combat 'east coast bias' seems to offer no tangible benefits, with some noticeable drawbacks in terms of conference stability.

[IndyBison]

I think you are correct about Oakland being the only Summit program attractive to other conferences. That says quite a bit about the League. I also believe that NDSU is WAY down the list of attractive programs and there is no way our conference mates require a "package deal" if they happen to get an invite somewhere. We might as well get used to the Summit for the long haul. That's not totally bad. We have a pretty good run of success across the sports and should be top dog in most for a long time.
Other than geography I think NDSU is attractive for any conference outside the BCS conferences. Stable administration. Strong traditions. Excellent alumni support. The geography issue though is big. Unless a conference is willing to significantly expand its footprint or we are packaged with other Dakota schools, it could be a big enough hurdle. Being in Fargo though is an advantage we have over the SD schools. Commercial flights options do exist. MVFC officials have to pay for their own transportation and getting to Fargo is much easier than getting to Brookings or Vermillion. It's not cheap though. Flight and hotel often take up most of their game checks.

[NorthernBison]

Other than geography I think NDSU is attractive for any conference outside the BCS conferences. Stable administration. Strong traditions. Excellent alumni support. The geography issue though is big. Unless a conference is willing to significantly expand its footprint or we are packaged with other Dakota schools, it could be a big enough hurdle. Being in Fargo though is an advantage we have over the SD schools. Commercial flights options do exist. MVFC officials have to pay for their own transportation and getting to Fargo is much easier than getting to Brookings or Vermillion. It's not cheap though. Flight and hotel often take up most of their game checks.

I get that but, even our own attitudes indicate that geography tends to be way more important than stable administration, committed fanbase, etc. Look at the horrible support some of our conference mates get. The MVFC didn't want us very bad but they were fine with SDSU. (guess which football program has ALL the non-geographical advantages in that comparison). Our location is a very big negative and we really can't do much about it.

As for the Nickname thing at UND, I remain convinced that control will be returned to the SBoHE and the Administration soon. Both appear to be tired of the issue and committed to retirement. I doubt if the Amendment people can get 28,000 signatures. They barely made it to the lesser level for this measure.

Dartmouth still seethes with reminders of their nickname fight 30 years after it was retired. So, I still expect to be hearing about it from UND fans for my lifetime. I just don't expect the supporters to do much more than bark at the end of their chain once it is retired. That's what I mean by "settled".

[Gully]

I get that but, even our own attitudes indicate that geography tends to be way more important than stable administration, committed fanbase, etc. Look at the horrible support some of our conference mates get. The MVFC didn't want us very bad but they were fine with SDSU. (guess which football program has ALL the non-geographical advantages in that comparison). Our location is a very big negative and we really can't do much about it.

As for the Nickname thing at UND, I remain convinced that control will be returned to the SBoHE and the Administration soon. Both appear to be tired of the issue and committed to retirement. I doubt if the Amendment people can get 28,000 signatures. They barely made it to the lesser level for this measure.

Dartmouth still seethes with reminders of their nickname fight 30 years after it was retired. So, I still expect to be hearing about it from UND fans for my lifetime. I just don't expect the supporters to do much more than bark at the end of their chain once it is retired. That's what I mean by "settled".

Maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying the MVFC wanted SDSU more than NDSU because of their geogrphic location? If so, that really doesn't make any sense to me. How is Brookings a geographical advantage compared to Fargo? Sorry if I completely read your post wrong.

[NorthernBison]

Maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying the MVFC wanted SDSU more than NDSU because of their geogrphic location? If so, that really doesn't make any sense to me. How is Brookings a geographical advantage compared to Fargo? Sorry if I completely read your post wrong.

The story we have heard is that the MVFC initially wanted SDSU and was reluctant about adding NDSU. The story is that SDSU insisted on a "package deal". To date, nobody has refuted that so I'm assuming it is the case.

What I get from that is that the MVFC didn't give a rip about tradition, fan support, budget, history etc. If they did, NDSU would be the first choice every time over SDSU. I don't know if geography entered into the decision but something certainly did.

[NDSUstudent]

Actually some of the resistance to NDSU had a lot to do with our support, traditions and facilities. A few schools(especially Missouri State) were concerned about adding another strong program to an already strong conference.

[zooropa]

Maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying the MVFC wanted SDSU more than NDSU because of their geogrphic location? If so, that really doesn't make any sense to me. How is Brookings a geographical advantage compared to Fargo? Sorry if I completely read your post wrong.

Two advantages:

The extra distance between Brookings and Fargo would turn a couple bus trips into plane flights (Illinois State and WIU, I would think).

The distance between Sioux Falls and Fargo is a significant in terms of charter flight costs. All the MVFC teams fly charter--you have to with rosters of that size--and charters are pretty much seat/mile based.

Also, don't be in a rush to play up the differences between SDSU & NDSU in NDSU's favor. These two schools are more or less interchangeable once you reach a certain distance from the Dakotas.

[Bison bison]

Glad you revised your language, zoo.

That was some grade a bullshit.

[NorthernBison]

Actually some of the resistance to NDSU had a lot to do with our support, traditions and facilities. A few schools(especially Missouri State) were concerned about adding another strong program to an already strong conference.

Great. That should make us a lock for full MVC membership since we pose little threat in their primary sport. I wonder how soon until they offer. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[zooropa]

Glad you revised your language, zoo.

That was some grade a bullshit.

Nah. It's true. True but unpopular around these parts. You think the MAC, for instance, would draw a major distinction between NDSU & SDSU on the basis of 'tradition' or 'fan support'? Facilities? Absolutely. Budget? Likely. But let's not exaggerate the differences, shall we?

[JSUBison]

Oh why not toss that subject into this 'mystery meat' topic?

UNO football was struggling to draw even 4k to home games, and the school has a mammoth Title IX issue. I don't think they could do FCS football.

I thought that Title IX wouldn't be an issue if a sport does not have scholarships? I had hoped that UNO at the worst would have kept their FB and gone non scholly for a while. They could have played in the Pioneer or even Indy until they could get their house in order. I would think that NDSU, SDSU and USD may even schedule a home/home with them from time to time, seeing how UNO is conference mate and also there is a history there and could help with attendance for all. I'm sure UNI and others would have liked having UNO football around as well for a guarantee game.

I don't know who UNO was playing in D2 towards the end, but I'm guessing they didn't have any large regional opponents that could increase attendance. I'm guessing if UNO had a home game against USD or SDSU there would be quite a few Yotes and Jacks making the drive, and even more alumni in the Omaha area going to the game.

[NorthernBison]

I thought that Title IX wouldn't be an issue if a sport does not have scholarships? I had hoped that UNO at the worst would have kept their FB and gone non scholly for a while. They could have played in the Pioneer or even Indy until they could get their house in order. I would think that NDSU, SDSU and USD may even schedule a home/home with them from time to time, seeing how UNO is conference mate and also there is a history there and could help with attendance for all. I'm sure UNI and others would have liked having UNO football around as well for a guarantee game.

I don't know who UNO was playing in D2 towards the end, but I'm guessing they didn't have any large regional opponents that could increase attendance. I'm guessing if UNO had a home game against USD or SDSU there would be quite a few Yotes and Jacks making the drive, and even more alumni in the Omaha area going to the game.

It's more than just scholarships. Total support and opportunities matter. That includes coaches salaries, recruiting budgets, etc.

They have men's hockey. No women's hockey. End of story.

[zooropa]

It's more than just scholarships. Total support and opportunities matter. That includes coaches salaries, recruiting budgets, etc.

They have men's hockey. No women's hockey. End of story.

Not quite.

Enrollment: 48% male
Participation: 61% male
Expenditures: 70% male

They've got a huge problem.

[NorthernBison]

Not quite.

Enrollment: 48% male
Participation: 61% male
Expenditures: 70% male

They've got a huge problem.

I thought that's what I said. (without any numbers)

[zooropa]

I thought that's what I said. (without any numbers)

Sorry, I thought you were implying that the problem stemmed from the hockey program.

Cutting FB & wrestling brings them into Title IX compliance as far as participation goes. Cutting hockey or adding women's hockey wouldn't, and AFAIK, their hockey program outdraws their FB program.

[NorthernBison]

Sorry, I thought you were implying that the problem stemmed from the hockey program.

Cutting FB & wrestling brings them into Title IX compliance as far as participation goes. Cutting hockey or adding women's hockey wouldn't, and AFAIK, their hockey program outdraws their FB program.

I guess I was indicating that the Hockey situation didn't help. I was thinking about dollars spent since hockey is expensive. I can see where football would really help bring the participation numbers back in line.

[zooropa]

I guess I was indicating that the Hockey situation didn't help. I was thinking about dollars spent since hockey is expensive. I can see where football would really help bring the participation numbers back in line.
Their FB program was FBS-level huge. They listed 138 participants last year.

Hockey is expensive, but it's probably the only sport they've got that's even close to self-supporting.

FYI: SDSU is required to be fully Title IX compliant. That means equality of spending, etc. Every dollar spent on FB has to be matched by about 95 cents in spending on women's athletics. It's one of the reasons why SDSU is still short staffed on the FB field. (this is also why I'm generally skeptical when people argue that baseball and wrestling are 'victims' of Title IX. If SDSU can do it, any institution can do it.)

[Hammersmith]

Actually some of the resistance to NDSU had a lot to do with our support, traditions and facilities. A few schools(especially Missouri State) were concerned about adding another strong program to an already strong conference.
Yep. I think we were just coming off our first 10-1 season when the discussion was happening. MSU and a couple others were not thrilled with adding another strong program to the conference. I believe one of the others was WIU. YSU may have been against us because of geography. They were willing to add one Dakota school, but a Dakota trip every year was not that appealing to them. SDSU's president tipped the scales when he said both or nothing. (It still took a couple days for them to make up their minds and get MSU on board.)

[Twentysix]

Yep. I think we were just coming off our first 10-1 season when the discussion was happening. MSU and a couple others were not thrilled with adding another strong program to the conference. I believe one of the others was WIU. YSU may have been against us because of geography. They were willing to add one Dakota school, but a Dakota trip every year was not that appealing to them. SDSU's president tipped the scales when he said both or nothing. (It still took a couple days for them to make up their minds and get MSU on board.)

Thank god for that. I for one am completely in support of standing by SDSU in future conference moves. Assuming they dont fall into complete ruin.

[zooropa]

Thank god for that. I for one am completely in support of standing by SDSU in future conference moves. Assuming they dont fall into complete ruin.

Well, you know what they say: 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.

Frankly, requiring NDSU be included was, IMO, enlightened self-interest. It's in both universities' best interests for them to be in the same conferences for all sports. This was an instance where standing up for NDSU came with no cost and little risk to SDSU.

[abc123]

Well, you know what they say: 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.

Frankly, requiring NDSU be included was, IMO, enlightened self-interest. It's in both universities' best interests for them to be in the same conferences for all sports. This was an instance where standing up for NDSU came with no cost and little risk to SDSU.

Here is something I've been wondering: Who do you think SDSU will be partnering with in the future if a conference comes calling and they only want one team? Would they look out for themselves or say only a package deal. And would that package deal only be them and one other team or two other teams? I have a feeling in the case of SDSU and one other team, NDSU wouldn't be the partner they choose anymore. Do you see a situation where SDSU and USD are separated conference-wise again?

Also, here's a pretty good interview with Fullerton on his thoughts and comments about expanding the Big Sky: Link (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/writers/fiveaside/archive/haley_5_16_2012.htm)

[zooropa]

Who do you think SDSU will be partnering with in the future if a conference comes calling

I see only one conference as attractive to SDSU: The MVC.

And I see SDSU's entrance to the MVC falling under two possible scenarios:

SDSU records multiple sweet 16 appearances over a comparatively short period of time (say twice in 5 years), and is sitting at ~5500 average home attendance at Frost (c. 90% of capacity). In this case, SDSU and SDSU alone might be considered for an invite to the MVC. But if this were to happen, the terms would be such that SDSU certainly wouldn't be in a position to negotiate. And in any event, I doubt that the MVC would look closely at SDSU even if they were in this position, due to the distance from Omaha.

Alternatively, a major shift in the Horizon/"A10"/Big East/Summit/MVC makeup, in which a number of the eastern/private MVC schools left for another conference, in which I doubt that SDSU would be a sole invite to the MVC, rather, an invitation would be extended to at least two of the four Summit/MVFC schools.

[zooropa]

Also, all you need to know about Fullerton is contained in his revisionist insistence that the Big Sky expansion was intended to undermine the WAC. Who honestly believes that SUU & UND were attractive to the WAC in 2010?

[dmksioux]

Also, all you need to know about Fullerton is contained in his revisionist insistence that the Big Sky expansion was intended to undermine the WAC. Who honestly believes that SUU & UND were attractive to the WAC in 2010? Agree that the WAC wasn't targeting either UND or SUU. However, they were targeting UM and possibly MSU. Fullerton needs to keep those 2 schools in the Big Sky. The Montana President/AD were on record at the time saying they were behind expansion into the Dakotas, specifically inviting UND/USD. How much credit to give to Fullerton can be up for debate but he is smart enough to keep the Montana schools happy.

[zooropa]

Agree that the WAC wasn't targeting either UND or SUU. However, they were targeting UM and possibly MSU. Fullerton needs to keep those 2 schools in the Big Sky. The Montana President/AD were on record at the time saying they were behind expansion into the Dakotas, specifically inviting UND/USD. How much credit to give to Fullerton can be up for debate but he is smart enough to keep the Montana schools happy.

Please. UND had nothing to do with the Montanas decision to stay FCS.

[Greenie]

From Fullerton's interview:

TSN: Where does the Big Sky stand on getting a 14th member in football?

DF: Well, we absolutely want to go to 14. We would like a full-fledged member. We can go to divisions, mitigate some travel in football and then in basketball and all the other sports you can have partner-scheduling, which we don't have now. That would take us to 12 in basketball and volleyball and all that. Getting to an even number is really a goal we've got.
--------------------------------------------

If the Big Sky doesn't get Idaho or New Mexico State, and UND stays in Big Sky, will they go after NDSU as the 14th member for football and 12th member for everything else? And if this happens, would the Missouri Valley want NDSU enough to invite it into their conference for all sports (and not lose NDSU to the Big Sky). All the changes in the Summit league has to have NDSU concerned about the long-term future of that league.

I would think that the Big Sky would like to partner UND with someone else for travel partners, and NDSU would be the best fit geographically and program ability.

As an aside, I think that SDSU's partner is now USD since they are in the same state and same conference for everything. Politically I don't think the state of SD would like to see them split up again. So essentially NDSU is on its own for switching conferences -- MVC or Big Sky or a FBS league.

Lastly, it was very interesting to listen to Gene Taylor and President Bresciani talk about any potential NDSU move to FBS football. To summarize, Taylor said he is concerned about all the major programs in FCS moving up and FCS essentially becoming what happened to DII. He doesn't want NDSU to get left behind again. Bresciani said it is an ever changing landscape and cost is THE major factor to moving up. I think if cost wasn't an issue, and a conference would take NDSU, they would move NDSU to FBS. If alumni/corporate partners paid for it (like how hockey was going to be paid for at MSU-Moorhead), then NDSU would move up. Don't know if any FBS would be interested in NDSU -- MAC would be the most likely. Stay tuned, I think things are going to get real interesting.

[dmksioux]

From Fullerton's interview:

TSN: Where does the Big Sky stand on getting a 14th member in football?

DF: Well, we absolutely want to go to 14. We would like a full-fledged member. We can go to divisions, mitigate some travel in football and then in basketball and all the other sports you can have partner-scheduling, which we don't have now. That would take us to 12 in basketball and volleyball and all that. Getting to an even number is really a goal we've got.
--------------------------------------------

If the Big Sky doesn't get Idaho or New Mexico State, and UND stays in Big Sky, will they go after NDSU as the 14th member for football and 12th member for everything else? And if this happens, would the Missouri Valley want NDSU enough to invite it into their conference for all sports (and not lose NDSU to the Big Sky). All the changes in the Summit league has to have NDSU concerned about the long-term future of that league.

I would think that the Big Sky would like to partner UND with someone else for travel partners, and NDSU would be the best fit geographically and program ability.

As an aside, I think that SDSU's partner is now USD since they are in the same state and same conference for everything. Politically I don't think the state of SD would like to see them split up again. So essentially NDSU is on its own for switching conferences -- MVC or Big Sky or a FBS league.

Lastly, it was very interesting to listen to Gene Taylor and President Bresciani talk about any potential NDSU move to FBS football. To summarize, Taylor said he is concerned about all the major programs in FCS moving up and FCS essentially becoming what happened to DII. He doesn't want NDSU to get left behind again. Bresciani said it is an ever changing landscape and cost is THE major factor to moving up. I think if cost wasn't an issue, and a conference would take NDSU, they would move NDSU to FBS. If alumni/corporate partners paid for it (like how hockey was going to be paid for at MSU-Moorhead), then NDSU would move up. Don't know if any FBS would be interested in NDSU -- MAC would be the most likely. Stay tuned, I think things are going to get real interesting.

Fullerton has been quoted several time in regards to realignment in the FBS. He believes the BCS schools will split from the rest of the FBS. Fullerton believes there will be a BCS, FBS, and FCS. He has stated he wants to position the Big Sky Conference to be a part of that FBS/2nd tier or whatever you want to call it. Not sure that all of the Big Sky Schools would be able to do that at the same time but that is what his vision is. I see NDSU as fitting into that Big Sky vision as well. As you said, it depends on alot of variables...ie Idaho, the BCS split occuring, Summit/MVC vision, etc. Should be an interesting few years coming up in college football...

[Hammersmith]

From Fullerton's interview:

TSN: Where does the Big Sky stand on getting a 14th member in football?

DF: Well, we absolutely want to go to 14. We would like a full-fledged member. We can go to divisions, mitigate some travel in football and then in basketball and all the other sports you can have partner-scheduling, which we don't have now. That would take us to 12 in basketball and volleyball and all that. Getting to an even number is really a goal we've got.
--------------------------------------------

If the Big Sky doesn't get Idaho or New Mexico State, and UND stays in Big Sky, will they go after NDSU as the 14th member for football and 12th member for everything else? And if this happens, would the Missouri Valley want NDSU enough to invite it into their conference for all sports (and not lose NDSU to the Big Sky). All the changes in the Summit league has to have NDSU concerned about the long-term future of that league.

I would think that the Big Sky would like to partner UND with someone else for travel partners, and NDSU would be the best fit geographically and program ability.

As an aside, I think that SDSU's partner is now USD since they are in the same state and same conference for everything. Politically I don't think the state of SD would like to see them split up again. So essentially NDSU is on its own for switching conferences -- MVC or Big Sky or a FBS league.

Lastly, it was very interesting to listen to Gene Taylor and President Bresciani talk about any potential NDSU move to FBS football. To summarize, Taylor said he is concerned about all the major programs in FCS moving up and FCS essentially becoming what happened to DII. He doesn't want NDSU to get left behind again. Bresciani said it is an ever changing landscape and cost is THE major factor to moving up. I think if cost wasn't an issue, and a conference would take NDSU, they would move NDSU to FBS. If alumni/corporate partners paid for it (like how hockey was going to be paid for at MSU-Moorhead), then NDSU would move up. Don't know if any FBS would be interested in NDSU -- MAC would be the most likely. Stay tuned, I think things are going to get real interesting.
I have no doubt that Fullerton wants NDSU and wants it in a big way. That was one of the reasons for adding UND and poaching USD. But I don't think NDSU wants the Big Sky. As long as the Summit holds at eight schools or more, I think the Summit is more appealing than a bloated Big Sky. The ONLY reason I could see a move to the Big Sky would be in preparation of a conference mitosis. The Big Sky gets so big that there's an orderly separation between members and we end up with the Montanas. But, even then, I still favor the Summit/MVFC.

[Greenie]

I have no doubt that Fullerton wants NDSU and wants it in a big way. That was one of the reasons for adding UND and poaching USD. But I don't think NDSU wants the Big Sky. As long as the Summit holds at eight schools or more, I think the Summit is more appealing than a bloated Big Sky. The ONLY reason I could see a move to the Big Sky would be in preparation of a conference mitosis. The Big Sky gets so big that there's an orderly separation between members and we end up with the Montanas. But, even then, I still favor the Summit/MVFC.

A couple big problems with the Big Sky are obviously increased travel costs, and that they don't sponsor all of our sports (baseball, softball to name a couple).

[zooropa]

would the Missouri Valley want NDSU enough to invite it into their conference for all sports

The MVFC is not the same as the MVC, and the short answer to your question is "No." The longer answer is "Hell no."

[Greenie]

The MVFC is not the same as the MVC, and the short answer to your question is "No." The longer answer is "Hell no."

Oh wow -- they aren't the same -- geez thanks for clearing that up (wish I could find the sarcasm button)

[zooropa]

Oh wow -- they aren't the same -- geez thanks for clearing that up (wish I could find the sarcasm button)

Your wording implies confusion about the two conferences:


would the Missouri Valley want NDSU enough to invite it into their conference for all sports (and not lose NDSU to the Big Sky)

The MVC is at no risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, as NDSU is not in the MVC.

The MVFC may be at risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, but the MVFC only sponsors one sport.

[Greenie]

Your wording implies confusion about the two conferences:



The MVC is at no risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, as NDSU is not in the MVC.

The MVFC may be at risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, but the MVFC only sponsors one sport.

I am not confused, you know what I meant

[zooropa]

I am not confused, you know what I meant

Maybe you're not confused, but I am.

Did you mean that UNI, SIU, Illinois State, Indiana State and Missouri State would want to invite NDSU to the MVC, in order to keep them in the MVFC?

Because that's incredibly unlikely.

At these schools football is a money pit. MBB isn't. Those schools aren't about to lower the quality of their profit center, in order to maintain the prestige of a loss leader.

[Hambone]

A couple big problems with the Big Sky are obviously increased travel costs, and that they don't sponsor all of our sports (baseball, softball to name a couple).

I believe with UND and SUU coming in, and Montana starting a team, the Big Sky will be sponsoring softball (as these three will make 8 (I believe) Big Sky schools with softball). I have no idea what baseball would do.

[tjbison]

Your wording implies confusion about the two conferences:



The MVC is at no risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, as NDSU is not in the MVC.

The MVFC may be at risk of losing NDSU to the Big Sky, but the MVFC only sponsors one sport.

MVC and MVFC share the same Office and officers just added football in there, anybody that says there is no affiliation at all is delusional. There is a reason it contains the 3 letters MV C. And obviously I know it's not exactly the same

[NorthernBison]

MVC and MVFC share the same Office and officers just added football in there, anybody that says there is no affiliation at all is delusional. There is a reason it contains the 3 letters MV C. And obviously I know it's not exactly the same

I don't think he's saying there is no affiliation. What you said is technically correct but probably has close to zero relevance as pertaining specifically to NDSU.

The Gorilla in the room is that the MVC is primarily about BASKETBALL and they think of themselves as a pretty big deal in the mid-major ranks. Most of their schools don't play football in the MVFC.

The result is that the MVC isn't the slightest bit impressed with NDSU's basketball program and there is a long list of schools ahead of us if the MVC were actively looking for new members. Even the MVFC isn't in a spot where losing NDSU to another conference (BSC?) would be catastrophic. Heck, some might even welcome it (one less loss on their record and a better shot at the post-season).

[IndyBison]

I don't think he's saying there is no affiliation. What you said is technically correct but probably has close to zero relevance as pertaining specifically to NDSU.

The Gorilla in the room is that the MVC is primarily about BASKETBALL and they think of themselves as a pretty big deal in the mid-major ranks. Most of their schools don't play football in the MVFC.

The result is that the MVC isn't the slightest bit impressed with NDSU's basketball program and there is a long list of schools ahead of us if the MVC were actively looking for new members. Even the MVFC isn't in a spot where losing NDSU to another conference (BSC?) would be catastrophic. Heck, some might even welcome it (one less loss on their record and a better shot at the post-season).
Conferences aren't always only looking to bring in programs with success. They are looking for schools that fit their footprint and mission. NDSU and UND are very similar schools in that regard. They are both geographically distant. They are very good public schools with 10-15k students. They have generally decent facilities and get average to above average support. A conference wouldn't necessarily prefer NDSU over UND because we've had a lot more athletic success especially of late. For that reason I don't think a school necessarily has to have a lot of success at one level before advancing to another.

[Bison03]

Once the SHAC is completed and we a get sustained growth of attendance I think the MVC could take a look at us. They have 10 members now and having and odd number is tough for scheduling. I don't see them adding both SDSU and NDSU and going to 12. But, with the ever changing landscape of conference shifting, you never know. I think the goal would be to have NDSU in the MVC for all sports.

[HerdBot]

Conferences aren't always only looking to bring in programs with success. They are looking for schools that fit their footprint and mission. NDSU and UND are very similar schools in that regard. They are both geographically distant. They are very good public schools with 10-15k students. They have generally decent facilities and get average to above average support. A conference wouldn't necessarily prefer NDSU over UND because we've had a lot more athletic success especially of late. For that reason I don't think a school necessarily has to have a lot of success at one level before advancing to another.

This is a reason why I have been a proponent of adding Chicago State. They are one of the few D1 schools out there that compete at the D1 level that fits the foot print. They would be easy travel for many teams. They also share many of the key sports. And even though they are essentially nobodies in Illinois, its a benefit to recruiting making extra trips to the 6th largest city in the US. You can make some extra visits and cut costs. Chicago was where we found And I just read an article on their website about improving academics.

Do they suck? Yes but remember we just had a team leave that was so bad they went down a division!

[BisBison]

Do they suck? Yes but remember we just had a team leave that was so bad they went down a division!

They actually went down two divisions! Centenary dropped to D-III.

[riceweb]

I think a lot of Summit/MVC expansion hinges on schools like Wichita St and Creighton. Both schools have available stadiums (Cessna Stadium and TD Ameritrade Park) and I could realistically see both schools adding (re-adding, actually) football in the next decade. If the MVC had 7 football schools, they might very well want to sponsor football as a conference and abandon the MVFC.

Going to be interesting for sure... I'd like to see NDSU join the MVC, perhaps with SDSU? And then I'd like the MVC to start sponsoring football, with Creighton and Wichita St bringing back their programs. The conference would be very strong in football, basketball, and baseball, and the schools would all fit geographically and culturally.

[Answer Guy]

And even though they are essentially nobodies in Illinois, its a benefit to recruiting making extra trips to the 6th largest city in the US.

Chicago State is in Phoenix?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

[NorthernBison]

This is a reason why I have been a proponent of adding Chicago State. They are one of the few D1 schools out there that compete at the D1 level that fits the foot print. They would be easy travel for many teams. They also share many of the key sports. And even though they are essentially nobodies in Illinois, its a benefit to recruiting making extra trips to the 6th largest city in the US. You can make some extra visits and cut costs. Chicago was where we found And I just read an article on their website about improving academics.

Do they suck? Yes but remember we just had a team leave that was so bad they went down a division!

I'm not sure I buy that logic. You have a right to your opinion.

Chicago State was NAIA in the 80's and they did move up to D1 in 1994 so I give them some credit for seeing the future. Although, it just might have been that the Mid-Con was desperate to add somebody. Do we really want to make that mistake again?

I guess that I just won't ever get comfortable adding schools that are well below NDSU in almost every measurable category to a league that functions as a "starter league" for move-ups. I would prefer to make the Summit BETTER instead of just BIGGER.

[MN_Moose]

You guys may be on to som,ething here. Sounds like there is real progress in bringing football back to Wichita St.
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Wichita-State-University-Football-is-back/jjdCwosNW0SD9dMdx_XCEw.cspx

Shockernet is putting in their two cents
http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?13475-FCS-to-expand-playoffs-Non-scholarship-Pioneer-league-to-get-bid.-Shocker-Football

You guys could hold them up. Let them in MVFC for your intrance in MVC all sports. Or, just cust the crap and make MVC a football conference also.


[QUOTE=riceweb;635061]I think a lot of Summit/MVC expansion hinges on schools like Wichita St and Creighton. QUOTE]

[Herd]

How do you get into the MVC? Basketball facilities, budget, and success . . . that is the only way. Futbol won't hurt, but Basketball is the only way. Our basketball renovation needs to be spectacular to separate us in BB, or the two SD schools will be ahead of us on the way to the Valley due to location. If you think football is the way to the Valley, you are wrong, again.

[HerdBot]

I'm not sure I buy that logic. You have a right to your opinion.

Chicago State was NAIA in the 80's and they did move up to D1 in 1994 so I give them some credit for seeing the future. Although, it just might have been that the Mid-Con was desperate to add somebody. Do we really want to make that mistake again?

I guess that I just won't ever get comfortable adding schools that are well below NDSU in almost every measurable category to a league that functions as a "starter league" for move-ups. I would prefer to make the Summit BETTER instead of just BIGGER.

I would agree but we dont have any choices. Who is out there with a Midwest location that is an upgrade?Are there ANY midwest D1 schools? Unless we are going to wait for Duluth, Mankato, or St Cloud State to move up were not in a position to choose. If we lose 2 teams and Chicago State decides to join another team, the conference will lose its auto qualifier and then we might as well go independent

[HerdBot]

You guys may be on to som,ething here. Sounds like there is real progress in bringing football back to Wichita St.
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Wichita-State-University-Football-is-back/jjdCwosNW0SD9dMdx_XCEw.cspx

Shockernet is putting in their two cents
http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?13475-FCS-to-expand-playoffs-Non-scholarship-Pioneer-league-to-get-bid.-Shocker-Football

You guys could hold them up. Let them in MVFC for your intrance in MVC all sports. Or, just cust the crap and make MVC a football conference also.


[QUOTE=riceweb;635061]I think a lot of Summit/MVC expansion hinges on schools like Wichita St and Creighton. QUOTE]

This is going to have an effect on Midwest recruiting. Whenever you have a team offer 85 full ride scholarship players its going to water down the talent. I assume they are going to hit Nebraska and Kansas up pretty hard. Enjoy recruiting Nebraska while the opportunity is still there.

[Hammersmith]

You guys may be on to som,ething here. Sounds like there is real progress in bringing football back to Wichita St.
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Wichita-State-University-Football-is-back/jjdCwosNW0SD9dMdx_XCEw.cspx

Shockernet is putting in their two cents
http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?13475-FCS-to-expand-playoffs-Non-scholarship-Pioneer-league-to-get-bid.-Shocker-Football

You guys could hold them up. Let them in MVFC for your intrance in MVC all sports. Or, just cust the crap and make MVC a football conference also.

I think a lot of Summit/MVC expansion hinges on schools like Wichita St and Creighton.
This is going to have an effect on Midwest recruiting. Whenever you have a team offer 85 full ride scholarship players its going to water down the talent. I assume they are going to hit Nebraska and Kansas up pretty hard. Enjoy recruiting Nebraska while the opportunity is still there.
:confused: Would you explain your point? A guy at Wichita State is trying to start a club team. How is that going to affect scholarships?

[Tatanka]

:confused: Would you explain your point? A guy at Wichita State is trying to start a club team. How is that going to affect scholarships?

LOL you think there's a point...

[Grizzled]

This thread is funny to read nearly a year later. A year ago some (zoopara) thought the Summit was stable and "maybe" only Oakland was gone. I thought the WAC was dead. I was wrong, even if it is a patched together mess it still has an autobid. No one saw the Catholic 7 forming thier own league and the huge trickle down effect it was going to have on the Summit.

I wonder what things will look like another 11 months from now.

[NorthernBison]

The ultimate "Reality Check" is when you remind yourself that the Summit is a place most schools still look to get OUT of. (That includes NDSU, SDSU, etc)

It gets downright depressing when you consider the apparent fact that NDSU is not really near the top of anybody's list for future invitees to their conference.

[zooropa]

A year ago some (zoopara) thought the Summit was stable and "maybe" only Oakland was gone. I thought the WAC was dead.

Yeah, well, I guess both of us underestimated the stupidity of UMKC's administration.

The sad thing for the WAC is that UMKC gives them credibility.

[ndsubison1]

They would not add 'a lot' to the conference.

Their Summit sports aren't that great and neither school would add to the stability of the conference.

True, they would add a measure of prestige, but it would come along with a significant increase in travel costs and no appreciable gain in membership stability.

..........

[zooropa]

..........

That comment was directed primarily at AFA, which struggles in most Summit sports. Between the AFA & Denver there is only one decent Summit League program: Denver's basketball program.

[ndsubison1]

Air force mens basketball would be a contender in the summit. No idea about the other sports. Hard to believe they wouldn't be a good addition at all though when you look at the teams in our conference

[zooropa]

Air force mens basketball would be a contender in the summit.

Meh. 180 in the Sagarin ratings, that's not awful, but it's wouldn't exactly boost the Summit's profile.

If Denver's a long-term member of the Summit, maybe you look at adding another school out there, but you wouldn't want to add a school near Denver, and then lose Denver to another conference and be stuck with some otherwise marginal school that's way out there (it would be comparable to adding UVU to pair with SUU, and then losing SUU to the Big Sky)

[ndsubison1]

there really arent any options anyways to boost the summits profile. except uvu and suu arent good schools in the first place

[Western4Life]

Long time without a stop, thought I would add the teams I would like to see and see what people think up north.

Oklahoma City University.... http://ocusports.com/

Lindenwood.... (St. Charles, Mo.) http://www.lindenwoodlions.com/

Robert Morris (Chicago).... http://www.rmueagles.com/

All three are in nice metro areas with endowments capable of funding whatever move is necessary. Lindenwood is DII and the other two are elite NAIA schools. A huge point to make is that none of these schools would have a football issues if bumped up. Ok City doesn't sponsor football and Robert Morris and Lindenwood could move their football teams to other campus's that sponsor sports in lower division like the United States Collegiate Athletic Association (http://www.theuscaa.com/landing/index)or maintain NAIA teams again at another campus. At the very least two of the three if added (maybe leave Robert Morris out and add Chicago State) would bring dramatic stability. I was shocked the MVC didn't look at Oklahoma City University considering the proximity to Wichita.

I am tired of worrying about the SL. Travel is an issue, numbers, and so on. With no support for Summit League football we could be killed off to serve the needs of the MVC and HL. Western is gaurenteed nothing so I'd like to prevent a collapse. These schools are bring something to the table IMO.

It would help Western a great deal to bring in St. Louis and Chicago for travel, the Dakotas kill our budget compared to what it would be in the MVC, OVC, or HL. Recruiting would be helped as well for everyone. Having a link to three major cities allows for SL teams to reach on recruits currently not in play.

[tjbison]

Long time without a stop, thought I would add the teams I would like to see and see what people think up north.

Oklahoma City University.... http://ocusports.com/

Lindenwood.... (St. Charles, Mo.) http://www.lindenwoodlions.com/

Robert Morris (Chicago).... http://www.rmueagles.com/

All three are in nice metro areas with endowments capable of funding whatever move is necessary. Lindenwood is DII and the other two are elite NAIA schools. A huge point to make is that none of these schools would have a football issues if bumped up. Ok City doesn't sponsor football and Robert Morris and Lindenwood could move their football teams to other campus's that sponsor sports in lower division like the United States Collegiate Athletic Association (http://www.theuscaa.com/landing/index)or maintain NAIA teams again at another campus. At the very least two of the three if added (maybe leave Robert Morris out and add Chicago State) would bring dramatic stability. I was shocked the MVC didn't look at Oklahoma City University considering the proximity to Wichita.

I am tired of worrying about the SL. Travel is an issue, numbers, and so on. With no support for Summit League football we could be killed off to serve the needs of the MVC and HL. Western is gaurenteed nothing so I'd like to prevent a collapse. These schools are bring something to the table IMO.

It would help Western a great deal to bring in St. Louis and Chicago for travel, the Dakotas kill our budget compared to what it would be in the MVC, OVC, or HL. Recruiting would be helped as well for everyone. Having a link to three major cities allows for SL teams to reach on recruits currently not in play.

I think the only real scenario involves the Horizon taking who it wants from the summit and leaving the rest to fend for themselves. which schools that will be is a crap shoot but I'm guessing its going to come down to money, facilities, support, location in that order. lets face it the Summit has no power to lure anyone, I'm guessing Denver is going to be a 1 year member looking for something better

[Grizzled]

I think the only real scenario involves the Horizon taking who it wants from the summit and leaving the rest to fend for themselves. which schools that will be is a crap shoot but I'm guessing its going to come down to money, facilities, support, location in that order. lets face it the Summit has no power to lure anyone, I'm guessing Denver is going to be a 1 year member looking for something better

I think the order of importance will be location, location, money, facilities, location, support. Its held pretty true in all previous mid major conference additions so far. I don't expect anything to change with the Horizon.

[DePereBisonFan]

I think the order of importance will be location, location, money, facilities, location, support. Its held pretty true in all previous mid major conference additions so far. I don't expect anything to change with the Horizon.

So then IUPUI and IPFW?

[Grizzled]

So then IUPUI and IPFW?

I have given up trying to predict any of this. A school in the Indianapolis market makes sense. I always thought about travel for just basketball but what will break some of these schools is the travel requirements for the non-revenue sports. That is what hurts us and SDSU.

[NDSUstudent]

Long time without a stop, thought I would add the teams I would like to see and see what people think up north.

Oklahoma City University.... http://ocusports.com/

Lindenwood.... (St. Charles, Mo.) http://www.lindenwoodlions.com/

Robert Morris (Chicago).... http://www.rmueagles.com/

All three are in nice metro areas with endowments capable of funding whatever move is necessary. Lindenwood is DII and the other two are elite NAIA schools. A huge point to make is that none of these schools would have a football issues if bumped up. Ok City doesn't sponsor football and Robert Morris and Lindenwood could move their football teams to other campus's that sponsor sports in lower division like the United States Collegiate Athletic Association (http://www.theuscaa.com/landing/index)or maintain NAIA teams again at another campus. At the very least two of the three if added (maybe leave Robert Morris out and add Chicago State) would bring dramatic stability. I was shocked the MVC didn't look at Oklahoma City University considering the proximity to Wichita.

I am tired of worrying about the SL. Travel is an issue, numbers, and so on. With no support for Summit League football we could be killed off to serve the needs of the MVC and HL. Western is gaurenteed nothing so I'd like to prevent a collapse. These schools are bring something to the table IMO.

It would help Western a great deal to bring in St. Louis and Chicago for travel, the Dakotas kill our budget compared to what it would be in the MVC, OVC, or HL. Recruiting would be helped as well for everyone. Having a link to three major cities allows for SL teams to reach on recruits currently not in play.

I like the idea of Lindenwood, but I also still would like to see a MN school come on board. Adding a school near Minneapolis would provide a lot of value for the Summit. Lets say Oakland leaves(which seems very likely) my new Summit...

NDSU-SCSU or MN State(Mankato)
SDSU-USD
UNO-Denver
IPFW-IUPUI
WIU-Lindenwood

OKC would have been nice if ORU was still around. Bellarmine and Southern Indiana are a couple of other schools the Summit could look at.

[HerdBot]

I like the idea of Lindenwood, but I also still would like to see a MN school come on board. Adding a school near Minneapolis would provide a lot of value for the Summit. Lets say Oakland leaves(which seems very likely) my new Summit...

NDSU-SCSU or MN State(Mankato)
SDSU-USD
UNO-Denver
IPFW-IUPUI
WIU-Lindenwood

OKC would have been nice if ORU was still around. Bellarmine and Southern Indiana are a couple of other schools the Summit could look at.

A Minnesota school sure makes us look less remote on a map! At least the states touch

[Western4Life]

I like the idea of Lindenwood, but I also still would like to see a MN school come on board. Adding a school near Minneapolis would provide a lot of value for the Summit. Lets say Oakland leaves(which seems very likely) my new Summit...

NDSU-SCSU or MN State(Mankato)
SDSU-USD
UNO-Denver
IPFW-IUPUI
WIU-Lindenwood

OKC would have been nice if ORU was still around. Bellarmine and Southern Indiana are a couple of other schools the Summit could look at.


^^^^THIS

I would be fine with Minnesota State Mankato joining the SL. Lindenwood and Minn St. would make nice additions for the sanity of all. On a side note having Minn St., Omaha, DU, could open a door for UND. LU has D1 women's hockey and the men's club is nationally ranked with eyes toward upgrading men's too. A lot of hockey in that mix which helps rivalries etc. Adding two football teams to the MVFC would be required IMO for any SL additions. If we are talking Minn. St. and St. Cloud there after which could drop football easier? Hate to ask but it is a tough situation.

If possible to adding Minn St., LU, UND the three together would offer long term stability with two joining the MVFC and one dropping football (obviously that is between LU & Minn St).

[NDSUstudent]

I'm guessing it would possible for a school to drop scholarships and join the Pioneer for football, that might be better than just dropping the program.

[Western4Life]

Maybe Lindenwood moves towards the Pioneer League? I know the PL just bumped up to 12 teams, I am not sure how expansion would work for them but it is a good idea. LU is like many of those schools and in metro STL they can recruit enough quality players IMO. It may help them with the scholarship costs and other cost increases to go D1. They have the financials to do as they please so I hope we tug them along. Minn St. and UND are enough of a namesake to pull the MVFC into agreement. The MVC is better off with a SL IMO so hopefully it works out.

[KSBisonFan]

^^^^THIS

I would be fine with Minnesota State Mankato joining the SL. Lindenwood and Minn St. would make nice additions for the sanity of all. On a side note having Minn St., Omaha, DU, could open a door for UND. LU has D1 women's hockey and the men's club is nationally ranked with eyes toward upgrading men's too. A lot of hockey in that mix which helps rivalries etc. Adding two football teams to the MVFC would be required IMO for any SL additions. If we are talking Minn. St. and St. Cloud there after which could drop football easier? Hate to ask but it is a tough situation.

If possible to adding Minn St., LU, UND the three together would offer long term stability with two joining the MVFC and one dropping football (obviously that is between LU & Minn St).

Lindenwood is in the process of transitioning their athletic teams from NAIA to Division II. They joined the MIAA conference which includes Pitt St and NW Missouri St (2 teams familiar to Bison fans). The league was happy to add Lindenwood for the St. Louis market because the majority of the schools in the MIAA are in medium to small cities. I don't see Lindenwood being anywhere near ready to make another move up at this time even with the St. Louis market as bait for poachers. Correct me if I'm wrong, Western.

[Western4Life]

Having visited their campus and seeing facilities etc they are prepared as of now IMO if they invest on a few projects. It would take them less to compete for SL championships at this point than WIU. I think they realized to market LU sports were going to be their best tool and it has shown since.

Lindwood has a chance to take over a great arena and all other sports have nice D1 set ups aside from football. The endowment is very large (over 100 million) and they have another campus on the IL side that is going to maintain a smaller division sports affiliation. St. Charles, Mo. has a standing offer to swap the Family Arena http://familyarena.com/family_arena_info.html for a combo of the facilities LU now uses. More pics here http://mvc-stcharles.com/FamilyArenaPhotoGallery.aspx It would immediately put them in the top tier of the SL. LU would use Family Arena (renamed obviously) for D1 hockey and basketball. I know they were NAIA but they were fully funded and a complete monster. The DII move was to gauge NCAA regulations and prep for an eventual DI transition (heard of a 2020-25 projections) that I would like to see expedited.

I would hate to have to compete against them and honestly see their rise as eminent. It would be far more appealing than SIUe IMO.

[tjbison]

I just don't see the MVFC expanding anymore unless someone leaves, those schools are tight as hell, it's really sad they penny pinch like that, but I also realize they need to, but they also have to keep the private BBall schools happy

[NDSUstudent]

I just don't see the MVFC expanding anymore unless someone leaves, those schools are tight as hell, it's really sad they penny pinch like that, but I also realize they need to, but they also have to keep the private BBall schools happy

Well if you add two more and move to divisions travel doesn't change much.

Summit
NDSU
UND
SDSU
USD
WIU
MN State/SCSU/UMD

Valley
UNI
SIU
ISUR
ISUB
MSU
YSU

[tjbison]

Well if you add two more and move to divisions travel doesn't change much.

Summit
NDSU
UND
SDSU
USD
WIU
MN State/SCSU/UMD

Valley
UNI
SIU
ISUR
ISUB
MSU
YSU

UND isn't leaving the Big Sky, St Cloud St isn't moving up especially with FB, UMD neither, the financial mess that is the State of Minnesota will not allow any of these to move up, I also don't the U of M would take kindly to it either

and I for one don't want to be stuck in a division with only SDSU as a good team on the schedule regularly either the Summit division in your post is terrible, but that's just my opinion

[NDSUstudent]

Well all I can say is that something has to happen. The Summit can't survive with 8 schools, scheduling in every sport would be brutal and of course baseball would be short on members. I'm not exactly confident that the HL or MVC will take us in anytime soon.

I think UND would join the MVFC/Summit in a second, there is no way they like traveling all over the western half of the US. I do think you are right that going DI and moving football up would be too much for the MN schools, they would likely have to do what Omaha did.

[Hammersmith]

Filbert from SDSUfans has brought up an interesting thought a couple times. If you're dead set on considering a Minnesota school, why not Concordia(St Paul) or one of the other privates? Bet they'd have a more dedicated fanbase than SCSU or Mankato. Pioneer for football and let them focus their money on basketball. CSP would be the most likely since they already offer scholarships at the DII level, but maybe one of the bigger MIAC schools might consider it. Something to consider.

Personally, I don't like the idea of any MN school. But if needs be, maybe the above is a decent option.

[tjbison]

Filbert from SDSUfans has brought up an interesting thought a couple times. If you're dead set on considering a Minnesota school, why not Concordia(St Paul) or one of the other privates? Bet they'd have a more dedicated fanbase than SCSU or Mankato. Pioneer for football and let them focus their money on basketball. CSP would be the most likely since they already offer scholarships at the DII level, but maybe one of the bigger MIAC schools might consider it. Something to consider.

Personally, I don't like the idea of any MN school. But if needs be, maybe the above is a decent option.

CSP would be good for BBall, forget about them but again they compete for time with the Gophers could they gain market share in Minneapolis?

[NDSUstudent]

Filbert from SDSUfans has brought up an interesting thought a couple times. If you're dead set on considering a Minnesota school, why not Concordia(St Paul) or one of the other privates? Bet they'd have a more dedicated fanbase than SCSU or Mankato. Pioneer for football and let them focus their money on basketball. CSP would be the most likely since they already offer scholarships at the DII level, but maybe one of the bigger MIAC schools might consider it. Something to consider.

Personally, I don't like the idea of any MN school. But if needs be, maybe the above is a decent option.

Well St Thomas is probably the school with the most potential because they have a massive endowment($557 million) but I thought the DI transition rules were changed to make it harder for DIII schools to move up.

CSP is interesting. Not sure how big their endowment is though, I guess I never really considered them before.

For the record I'd rather not add a MN school to the MVFC but I think a MN school would be good for the Summit.

[Hammersmith]

Well St Thomas is probably the school with the most potential because they have a massive endowment($557 million) but I thought the DI transition rules were changed to make it harder for DIII schools to move up.

CSP is interesting. Not sure how big their endowment is though, I guess I never really considered them before.

For the record I'd rather not add a MN school to the MVFC but I think a MN school would be good for the Summit.
Yeah, a quick read of the DI and DII manuals make it look like a 12 or 13 year process. DIII to DII looks even more complicated than DII to DI. To get into DII, you need to spend at least 2 years as a candidate school. Could be more if they don't like something. Then you need to spend a minimum of 1 year as a provisional member. The rules make it sound like this period is likely to go beyond the minimum. To become DI, you need to spend 5 years as a full DII before you can start the reclassification. Then you've got the regular transition that we went through. I guess the DI schools really don't want the DIII schools crashing the party.

[tjbison]

Yeah, a quick read of the DI and DII manuals make it look like a 12 or 13 year process. DIII to DII looks even more complicated than DII to DI. To get into DII, you need to spend at least 2 years as a candidate school. Could be more if they don't like something. Then you need to spend a minimum of 1 year as a provisional member. The rules make it sound like this period is likely to go beyond the minimum. To become DI, you need to spend 5 years as a full DII before you can start the reclassification. Then you've got the regular transition that we went through. I guess the DI schools really don't want the DIII schools crashing the party.

even if a full DI AQ conference gives you an invite?

[Hammersmith]

even if a full DI AQ conference gives you an invite?
Can't start the DII to DI move without one anymore.

[DePereBisonFan]

Anybody have any inklings on any Summit acqusitions?

[JSUBison]

Anybody have any inklings on any Summit acqusitions?

Not really, but my opinion is that the Summit should embrace it's role as a D2 move up conference. The Summit hasn't had much success in adding preexisting DI schools. Some people hold their noses at the thought of D2 additions, but I think the Summit has done a great job in identifying strong D2 candidates and adding them: NDSU, SDSU, USD, Omaha. NDSU & SDSU have already risen to the top in conference in multiple sports, and I think Omaha is going to be a player as well. I think finding D2 schools with money, fan support, and a desire to move up is the direction the Summit is going, like it or not. I think the success of NDSU and SDSU has had should open the eyes of some D2 AD's, thinking if XDSU can be successful, why not us? I know XDSU's were not your average D2 move ups, but to think that what the Bison and Jacks have accomplished could never be replicated is small thinking.

[JackJD]

I had a little time to blow on Wikipedia the other night and was comparing schools in the region, particularly those in Minnesota. The most obvious candidates are UM-Duluth, St. Cloud and Minnesota State-Mankato. I then did a little digging on the University of Saint Thomas in St. Paul and Minneapolis. The Tommies are DIII but I wonder if they ever consider moving up. More than 10,000 students; great academic tradition; doctoral-granting institution; good athletics tradition at their level...what's not to like? Moving from DIII to DI is quite a jump but they have the money, reasonable facilities, great market (WCCO Radio carries their games).

[NDSUstudent]

I had a little time to blow on Wikipedia the other night and was comparing schools in the region, particularly those in Minnesota. The most obvious candidates are UM-Duluth, St. Cloud and Minnesota State-Mankato. I then did a little digging on the University of Saint Thomas in St. Paul and Minneapolis. The Tommies are DIII but I wonder if they ever consider moving up. More than 10,000 students; great academic tradition; doctoral-granting institution; good athletics tradition at their level...what's not to like? Moving from DIII to DI is quite a jump but they have the money, reasonable facilities, great market (WCCO Radio carries their games).

St Thomas would be a huge addition but they are looking at a 10 year transition into DI thanks to the new transition rules.

[DePereBisonFan]

Not really, but my opinion is that the Summit should embrace it's role as a D2 move up conference. The Summit hasn't had much success in adding preexisting DI schools. Some people hold their noses at the thought of D2 additions, but I think the Summit has done a great job in identifying strong D2 candidates and adding them: NDSU, SDSU, USD, Omaha. NDSU & SDSU have already risen to the top in conference in multiple sports, and I think Omaha is going to be a player as well. I think finding D2 schools with money, fan support, and a desire to move up is the direction the Summit is going, like it or not. I think the success of NDSU and SDSU has had should open the eyes of some D2 AD's, thinking if XDSU can be successful, why not us? I know XDSU's were not your average D2 move ups, but to think that what the Bison and Jacks have accomplished could never be replicated is small thinking.

Good points. In fact I believe Oakland was added when it made its transition to DI. Perhaps our conference can be the sought after upper midwest conference for athletics in transition, and then eventually reach a core number of geographic allies.

[tony]

St Thomas would be a huge addition but they are looking at a 10 year transition into DI thanks to the new transition rules.

And I think that they'd rather be in a conference full of private schools.

[heckler]

UMD does not have enough money to make a transition. They want to though. However, if a university is part of the U of M system (like Duluth) good luck moving to DI. U of M wanted Duluth to get rid of their hockey program before they built a new arena. They want one dedicated D1 university in the state.

[klomp44]

Teams I would look to include Northern Colorado and UND from the Big Sky.

Colorado schools, Indiana schools, and Dakota schools would then pair up. That leaves UNO and WIU isolated though. Do you go after an Eastern Illinois, for example? Chicago State seems like they'd be a better geographical fit in the Summit than the WAC.

[silkamilkamonico]

For teams like und and northern colorado to move into the summit, sonething would have to happen with their football program. Big sky isnt going to keep them football only, and they arent going to put their football program in Independant status foe the sake of their other sports, they would put their atheltic departments in a financial crisis.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[Bisonator98]

For teams like und and northern colorado to move into the summit, sonething would have to happen with their football program. Big sky isnt going to keep them football only, and they arent going to put their football program in Independant status foe the sake of their other sports, they would put their atheltic departments in a financial crisis.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

Why not? CP and Davis are football only.

[leeshajo]

So here is just a random question, I know a lot of Bison fans have expressed their dislike of the idea of the Summit adding football as a sport, but if NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU, were to pull out of the Valley, wouldn't it almost force the hands of a few teams from the Valley to jump? If the Summit could add UND and UNC for full membership based on the contingency of adding football, we would have six football playing schools and in reality better shape than the valley (Football wise). Especially since YSU to the CAA is more and more likely as realignment continues. It would leave four teams in the MVFC. The move would stabilize the core teams in the Summit for all sports. And in all likely hood, we would be able to pick up 2-3 of the remaining MVFC teams as associates in football. While I know common sense says none of them would jump in all sports, I question if UNI couldn't be tempted. Either way... my question finally, why is this something that so many of you are against? I know one issue would be the AQ, but I would bet that would be a non-issue with the NCAA and granted as soon as the conference was formed.

It also would take the power away from the MVC teams and put the control in our hands, where if a team wanted to join, we would have the ability to say yes or no, rather than being dependent on the MVC teams.

[southpaw]

So here is just a random question, I know a lot of Bison fans have expressed their dislike of the idea of the Summit adding football as a sport, but if NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU, were to pull out of the Valley, wouldn't it almost force the hands of a few teams from the Valley to jump? If the Summit could add UND and UNC for full membership based on the contingency of adding football, we would have six football playing schools and in reality better shape than the valley (Football wise). Especially since YSU to the CAA is more and more likely as realignment continues. It would leave four teams in the MVFC. The move would stabilize the core teams in the Summit for all sports. And in all likely hood, we would be able to pick up 2-3 of the remaining MVFC teams as associates in football. While I know common sense says none of them would jump in all sports, I question if UNI couldn't be tempted. Either way... my question finally, why is this something that so many of you are against? I know one issue would be the AQ, but I would bet that would be a non-issue with the NCAA and granted as soon as the conference was formed.

It also would take the power away from the MVC teams and put the control in our hands, where if a team wanted to join, we would have the ability to say yes or no, rather than being dependent on the MVC teams.

That is actually a really good idea and would go a long ways to stabilizing the Summit. I would imagine some of the MVC teams would be pretty pissed but some of them may have no other choice than to rejoin their league just under a different conference. Adding football to the summit and have 7+ teams would likely be the minimum requirements to getting UND to join that conference.

I have to admit, it's valiant that NDSU fans are working trying a lot of different ideas of keeping the Summit together while at the same time having all but their pinky toe on the second foot out the door to the Horizon or MVC.

[silkamilkamonico]

Why not? CP and Davis are football only.

Cp and dsvies were asked to join gor football only. I would imagine its a little different when conference members would just go to the big sky and tell them there pulling all sportd out but will stay football only. Just cant see it bei.g easy as that.

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[NorthernBison]

So here is just a random question, I know a lot of Bison fans have expressed their dislike of the idea of the Summit adding football as a sport, but if NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU, were to pull out of the Valley, wouldn't it almost force the hands of a few teams from the Valley to jump? If the Summit could add UND and UNC for full membership based on the contingency of adding football, we would have six football playing schools and in reality better shape than the valley (Football wise). Especially since YSU to the CAA is more and more likely as realignment continues. It would leave four teams in the MVFC. The move would stabilize the core teams in the Summit for all sports. And in all likely hood, we would be able to pick up 2-3 of the remaining MVFC teams as associates in football. While I know common sense says none of them would jump in all sports, I question if UNI couldn't be tempted. Either way... my question finally, why is this something that so many of you are against? I know one issue would be the AQ, but I would bet that would be a non-issue with the NCAA and granted as soon as the conference was formed.

It also would take the power away from the MVC teams and put the control in our hands, where if a team wanted to join, we would have the ability to say yes or no, rather than being dependent on the MVC teams.

YSU is the Wild Card. With the 5 MVC programs and YSU, they have enough for a conference. They could tell us to pound sand.

[NDSUstudent]

YSU is the Wild Card. With the 5 MVC programs and YSU, they have enough for a conference. They could tell us to pound sand.

And then NDSU would have a huge football conference issue if they did. Which is why Summit football is a nonstarter. I'd rather join the Big Sky than play football in the Summit without the MVC schools.

[KUlawJack]

And then NDSU would have a huge football conference issue if they did. Which is why Summit football is a nonstarter. I'd rather join the Big Sky than play football in the Summit without the MVC schools.

Its a non-starter at this time, sure. But that obviously hasn't stopped the rampant speculation that is taking place!

If YSU were to leave, then we'd probably be having this conversation a little more seriously.

[KUlawJack]

That is actually a really good idea and would go a long ways to stabilizing the Summit. I would imagine some of the MVC teams would be pretty pissed but some of them may have no other choice than to rejoin their league just under a different conference. Adding football to the summit and have 7+ teams would likely be the minimum requirements to getting UND to join that conference.

I have to admit, it's valiant that NDSU fans are working trying a lot of different ideas of keeping the Summit together while at the same time having all but their pinky toe on the second foot out the door to the Horizon or MVC.

Also, FYI, she's an SDSU fan.