Vigen Bashers: Is it time to admit you were wrong? I think so..........

[Wacker_in_the_Hall]

Here is the opportunity to those of you who have ripped him through the past 2 seasons, to admit that you were wrong. Step up to the table......

[TheBisonator]

When I bashed him before, I was right about him AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. I think the guy now has an understanding of what it takes to be a successful DI offensive coordinator. Anything that I said about him in the past regarding his ability, I am now wrong for, seeing him as he's doing things in 2011, and I admit I was wrong.

I will still criticize his play-calling in the future if he has any more crap games, but I think the guy has all the personal tools necessary to be a quality FCS O-coordinator.

I think he has now given himself the skill of coming up with dynamic, successful game plans BEFORE THE GAME. Next step will be in-game adjustments, creating NEW dynamic stuff on the fly at halftime or in the middle of the 2nd or 3rd quarter.

If he can give himself that skill, he's starting to look good as an HC candidate for a top DII team or a lower, mediocre FCS.

[Bison"FANatic"]

After the fiasco with time management I saw last week at Brookings and with Bohl yelling at the guy with the headphones as plays were not brought in and also we scored no offensive TD's in the second half yesterday and when we had the opportunity to salt the game away yesterday we went 3 and out back with play calling that was very reminiscent of last year. It sure has been nice to usually see a unpredictable offense but He still is not out of my doghouse. Good coaching can make lesser talent look good and good talent can also coaches look good. I think we have a very talented team this year.

[A1pigskin]

I think the play calling has been better this year than the last two. Seems to be trickery as well.

[NDSUstudent]

Gotta win a MVFC title first. He has made a ton of progress though.

[A1pigskin]

Can't complain too much when your winning.

[EndZoneQB]

I reserve judgement to see one's body of work for the year. I think Bohl has been much more involved with the offense this year, judging by comments he made in regards to the offense before the season.

[tjbison]

Can't complain too much when your winning.

WHAT???? Then you should read some of the stuff on here!!!

[bisontwice]

I am pretty sure Bohl's increased involvement with the offense is limited to "just score points and don't give the ball away." Remember Bohl is and always has been a defensive coach.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Here is the opportunity to those of you who have ripped him through the past 2 seasons, to admit that you were wrong. Step up to the table......

Vigen was not up to the job during the past couple seasons. He has learned on the job and improved. At the time he was put in the position he was NOT a good OC.

[CaBisonFan]

I like what I'm seeing. There's been big improvement. He had a lot to learn. I give him credit for toughing it out and working hard to develop as a coach.

I don't think that the Bison should have a coordinator who needs 2 or 3 years to learn.

We should be hiring proven people who've been somewhere else learning.

You have a point...but things were not going well during the process.

[Ferd]

I think it helps to have the talent on the field. Calling great plays doesn't help when the guys can't execute them.

They are now showing that they CAN execute them. Now we have to do it every game, the whole game.

[ISXBISON]

I think it helps to have the talent on the field. Calling great plays doesn't help when the guys can't execute them.

They are now showing that they CAN execute them. Now we have to do it every game, the whole game.

Exactly. It's amazing what you can do when you have the players to do it. He now has the ability to open up the playbook. We are no longer one dimensional. Jensen is a completely different player this year. We actually have receivers that catch the ball which has completely transformed and opened up our offense. We didn't have that the last couple years.

[tojo70]

The big thing I didn't like yesterday is calling the same play 3 plays in a row. We were up in the 4th qtr and trying to run down the clock. Dive play to the right was called twice (where the left back scoots to the right) gained 1 or 2 yards each play then called then to the left. Yes run plays up the middle to run the clock down but need to do a little better than that.

[EndZoneQB]

The big thing I didn't like yesterday is calling the same play 3 plays in a row. We were up in the 4th qtr and trying to run down the clock. Dive play to the right was called twice (where the left back scoots to the right) gained 1 or 2 yards each play then called then to the left. Yes run plays up the middle to run the clock down but need to do a little better than that.

Agreed. When I knew the game was getting close to getting in hand, I could feel Vigen let off the gas pedal. I was yelling at him most of the 4th quarter.

[stevdock]

Exactly. It's amazing what you can do when you have the players to do it. He now has the ability to open up the playbook. We are no longer one dimensional. Jensen is a completely different player this year. We actually have receivers that catch the ball which has completely transformed and opened up our offense. We didn't have that the last couple years.

Exactly!!!!! Think about how much more talent we had on the field yesterday then what we had on the field the last time we played UNI. We have much improved receivers, whether they are WR, TE, or RB's, and they are all running better routes and getting separation. The O-Line is giving Brock all day to throw and then he is very precise and accurate with his throws. They are exactly where they need to be. He got away with ONE yesterday. When you have that kind of production on offense you can open the entire playbook. Vigen could not do that last year.

[stevdock]

Agreed. When I knew the game was getting close to getting in hand, I could feel Vigen let off the gas pedal. I was yelling at him most of the 4th quarter.

My opinion was (and we'll never know) is Bohl might have said run as much clock as you can and we are going to make the backup QB win/lose the game. We've seen that in the past so that's my guess of what happened.

[EndZoneQB]

My opinion was (and we'll never know) is Bohl might have said run as much clock as you can and we are going to make the backup QB win/lose the game. We've seen that in the past so that's my guess of what happened.

It does make sense...but they were moving the ball. That Holloway fumble really changed the game. Since we won, it'll be swept under the rug, so to speak. I know there has been some discussion about the play and the rule on here, but that was a pretty big play. We score there, and who knows. If we had lost, that would have been my sticking point.

[Trampled]

It is amazing how good the offense is when more than 5 plays are called. That being said, he is greatly improved.

[MNLonghorn10]

annnd just a month ago we had his head on a dart board after the isu/siu games. hes made progress and has called some good games the last 3 weeks, but ill reserve judgement...especially if he chokes it in the playoffs, when itll matter.

that said ill remain suspect with what vigen we'll get in any game, or half.

[Tatanka]

I didn't form my opinion in haste, nor am I going to change it based on a recent and relatively small sample size.

[mgbison]

It doen't matter who our oc would have been the last 2 years. Our receivers sucked, veldman was always hurt and putting all the eggs in the mertens basket backfired. It would not have mattered who our oc would have been. We didn't have the talent on offense. The success of the oc is dependent on the talent.

The oc is always the first to get ripped on by the fans. Good thing Vigen probably doesn't care what people on Bisonville think.

[westnodak93bison]

Vigen has stepped up big time. Of course it helps to have more talent. I love the 5 wide outs on occasion. Nothing wrong with keeping the defense on their toes.

[SDbison]

Vigen still has a long way to go. Bohl made a mistake putting Vigen in there in the first place as a team like the Bison deserve an experienced OC not a guy who is learning on the job. Having a smart and talented QB like Brock making a big difference. Also lots of scoring by the defense. Vigen is slowly getting it but he is far from being a good OC.

[mgbison]

Vigen still has a long way to go. Bohl made a mistake putting Vigen in there in the first place as a team like the Bison deserve an experienced OC not a guy who is learning on the job. Having a smart and talented QB like Brock making a big difference. Also lots of scoring by the defense. Vigen is slowly getting it but he is far from being a good OC.

Name 1 oc that would be considered a good oc that doesn't have a good QB. Vigen is the QB coach. If you are gonna rip Vigen for terrible QB play, you have to give him credit for developing Jensen. Who is a good OC? Name an oc that you would want. The OC is only as good as the talent on the team.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

Here is the opportunity to those of you who have ripped him through the past 2 seasons, to admit that you were wrong. Step up to the table......

I will take this opportunity to admit that i wasnt wrong. The team is executing a lot better and Brock is calling audibles. That is the difference, you are witnessing a offense that has improved greatly, so its making things easier for Vigen.

[56BISON73]

I will take this opportunity to admit that i wasnt wrong. The team is executing a lot better and Brock is calling audibles. That is the difference, you are witnessing a offense that has improved greatly, so its making things easier for Vigen.

Being the OC dont you think he would have something to do with said improvement?

[steelbison]

Being the OC dont you think he would have something to do with said improvement?

Of course he would. Just like the major improvement in Brock's footwork and mechanics.



I loved the play calling in the Minnesota game and UNI. It seems when it's a big game we open up the playbook even more.

Absolutely loved the 5 wide set to open the second half. Totally took UNI off guard.



Earlier in the year our O-line wasn't playing well. Since we've made the changes were really starting to come together.


I was always someone who believed we would see what coach Vigen could do when we had a capable QB. Well this is the first year we've had one and it's starting to come together.

[CAS4127]

Plus, Plus--Tatanka and MNLhorn--plus plus!!

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

The talent level has improved and that is why Vigen looks better.

Anyway, I'm not going to second guess him as long as we are winning.

[Scooter1]

Here is the opportunity to those of you who have ripped him through the past 2 seasons, to admit that you were wrong. Step up to the table......

OK....

Let's look at the resume'

Nick Mertens. The guy was an idiot, uncoachable with no physical ability...wait... he was a scholar athlete with pretty good physical ability. Great job vigen!

Troy Jackson. Yep.. did wonders with this kid.

Andrew Fabre. Good enough to be a walk on at a FBS school... Yep... Vigen scores again.

Jose Mohler. I see Vigen all over this kid. Congratulations!!!

Donte Perez. JC numbers of 60TD, 5938 yards passing + Vigen = clipboard or ball cap on sideline. Congrats!

Lets not forget he was the recruiting coordinator...
during the worst recruiting year for Bison football...EVER!!!

Now you want me to eat crow because he is 1/6 at developing QB's?!?

I say that more likely Brock is now healthy and is doing well in SPITE of his Tightend quarterbacks coach.

...why isn't he growing out Brocks hair so he would be as good as this guy.....

[perthbison]

A lot of good points on this thread, both negetive and positive. It looks like Vigen has learned a lot from past experience and all the things he may have been doing wrong prievous to this year. That tells me there is hope and I'm enjoying the hell out of watching this offense this year. I don't agree that the talent level was so poor last year and before so that excuses him. If your a coach and a coordinator, you should be able to find a way to get results with the talent they had last year and before.

[mgbison]

OK....

Let's look at the resume'

Nick Mertens. The guy was an idiot, uncoachable with no physical ability...wait... he was a scholar athlete with pretty good physical ability. Great job vigen!

Troy Jackson. Yep.. did wonders with this kid.

Andrew Fabre. Good enough to be a walk on at a FBS school... Yep... Vigen scores again.

Jose Mohler. I see Vigen all over this kid. Congratulations!!!

Donte Perez. JC numbers of 60TD, 5938 yards passing + Vigen = clipboard or ball cap on sideline. Congrats!

Lets not forget he was the recruiting coordinator...
during the worst recruiting year for Bison football...EVER!!!

Now you want me to eat crow because he is 1/6 at developing QB's?!?

I say that more likely Brock is now healthy and is doing well in SPITE of his Tightend quarterbacks coach.

...why isn't he growing out Brocks hair so he would be as good as this guy.....



You have no clue how college coaches recruit. We had coaches on our staff that weren't pulling their weight recruiting and those coaches are no longer on the staff. The recruiting coordinator is a title. They line up hotels for players, get catering for recruiting events, etc. The recruiting coordinator doesn't oversee what kids we recruit or don't recruit.

It takes the whole staff busting their a$$es to recruit, each coach has a certain area they recruit. Vigen has been here since Bohl started and Vigen has and still does a great job recruiting.

[mgbison]

What did I make up?

I never said any coach was forced out. You implied that on your own.

I'll say it again, we had coaches that weren't pulling their weight recruiting and they are no longer on our staff.

[DjKyRo]

Speaking objectively, an opinion about a person or idea at the time doesn't necessarily need to be retracted later if the situation changes. If it's cold today and hot tomorrow, it doesn't make today suddenly warm too - Vigen struggled last season and before and looks better this season. I'm curious as to how the next year or two pan out, and more so in how the next iteration of Bison QB works out (whether that's if Brock goes down with an injury, knock on wood, or after he graduates) to see just how much of an impact Vigen has had on the development of the starting QB. History isn't in his favor (Mertens, Mohler) but one can't argue with the kind of transformation Brock has undergone through just his second year.

Criticisms of Vigen in the past aren't inaccurate now, they simply might no longer apply. Making that argument based on a half a season in the face of several years of offensive instability is...well, bad science.

[Scooter1]

So, saying a coach isn't pulling their weight and following it up with they are no longer on the staff isn't implying they were forced out? :facepalm2:

...OK

We had a sales guy who was not pulling his weight and is no longer with us...but I'm not saying we forced him out....

you came up with that on your own.:duel:

[HerdBot]

So far so good. The past is irrelevant if you improve. He had some problems that were not all his fault.

[bisonpride4ever]

He is still inconsistent. Some weeks he makes you say wow watching the offense and then there are other weeks where he just leaves you scratching your head.

[devin45k]

He is still inconsistent. Some weeks he makes you say wow watching the offense and then there are other weeks where he just leaves you scratching your head.

Exactly what I was thinking.

When he gets stumped it seems like he will keep doing the same plays over and over. He seemed to do this alot in the Mohler era too.

[NorthernBison]

It really doesn't matter who the OC is because this board will never be satisfied. Nobody should take offense to that because it's the same for almost every team's fans. Look at most message boards and you see second guessing the head coaches and coordinators all the time.

Virtually every one of us knows darn well that we could not step on the field and do what the players do. On the other hand, most think they could call plays. It's nice being ignorant of what we don't know.

Specific to the Bison, this is Bohl's offense and defense. We play a highly conservative game overall on both sides of the ball. We compete in a conference that is very strong from top to bottom most years and most teams in the conference pride themselves on defense and physical play. That's a prescription for relatively low scoring games with offenses that, even if effective. don't light up the scoreboard. My advice is to get used to that and enjoy the winning.

[Twentysix]

It really doesn't matter who the OC is because this board will never be satisfied. Nobody should take offense to that because it's the same for almost every team's fans. Look at most message boards and you see second guessing the head coaches and coordinators all the time.

Virtually every one of us knows darn well that we could not step on the field and do what the players do. On the other hand, most think they could call plays. It's nice being ignorant of what we don't know.

Specific to the Bison, this is Bohl's offense and defense. We play a highly conservative game overall on both sides of the ball. We compete in a conference that is very strong from top to bottom most years and most teams in the conference pride themselves on defense and physical play. That's a prescription for relatively low scoring games with offenses that, even if effective. don't light up the scoreboard. My advice is to get used to that and enjoy the winning.

Speak for yourself I own a playstation.

[bisonaudit]

The only little nit pick I have is that we got to conservative too soon. That may be cultural (Bohl). But Jensen is playing so well and specificly his completion percentage is so high I think that both Bohl and Vigen need to come to the realization that they can mix in the pass when they're ahead in the middle of the 4th quarter and still accomplish the goal of running a lot of clock.

[Zilka76]

8-0..... nuff said...


this offense is the perfect counter to a great defense.... run the clock.. keep the d fresh to make plays... IE 2000 Baltimore Ravens

[bisonmike2]

Vigen's play calling is so much better this year. That might also be because he has a ton more confidence in the QB who's running it than he has since he's been here. 5 receiver sets!? I would never have thought he was capable of calling plays in that formation. He's this close to getting an apology from me.

[SDbison]

Vigen is only better because he is learning how to be a OC through day by day experience. My biggest criticism goes to Bohl because if you give him credit as running things like the CEO of a business he failed by placing Vigen in the OC role. Bohl was a defensive coordinator before he came to NDSU. His weakness was offense. So what does he do........places a guy like Vigen in there with no experience as an offensive coordinator. The past two years teams had to go through the pains of Vigen hopefully learning from his mistakes. Totally unacceptable. Most rational fans who attend games can see there still is much room for improvement from Vigen. Are things getting better.........yes, but there is a ways to go.

[SDbison]

Plus, Plus--Tatanka and MNLhorn--plus plus!! So what are your thoughts CAS? I know you have your own thoughts on the matter. Too Sambini-like with ++ reply.

[CAS4127]

So what are your thoughts CAS? I know you have your own thoughts on the matter. Too Sambini-like with ++ reply.

My thoughts: The SIU and Illinios State games, which were both also played in the month of October, are not that far removed--think about it. I see inconsistency and what people call "conservative" play calling. Are we sure it is actually "conservative" play calling, or is play calling limited by "other" things? My guess is that Vigen cringes many times during the game when Brock fires one into tight/double coverage. Vigen would never throw that if he was out there, and likely lets out a big sigh when it is a completion on a pass he would rather have not seen thrown. Running game still lacks anything close to creativity.

In short, the jury is STILL out in my book.

One more thing, what ever happended to the play-action play to DJ that we would then dump to him in stride as the LB's were sprinting to their zone coverage assignments? Remember that play? It was huge for us toward the end of last season, and we aint seen it yet this year from what I can recall. Note that I hope Vigen is reading this thread so he is reminded of the play!!!!

[Zilka76]

Vigen is only better because he is learning how to be a OC through day by day experience. My biggest criticism goes to Bohl because if you give him credit as running things like the CEO of a business he failed by placing Vigen in the OC role. Bohl was a defensive coordinator before he came to NDSU. His weakness was offense. So what does he do........places a guy like Vigen in there with no experience as an offensive coordinator. The past two years teams had to go through the pains of Vigen hopefully learning from his mistakes. Totally unacceptable. Most rational fans who attend games can see there still is much room for improvement from Vigen. Are things getting better.........yes, but there is a ways to go.

So I guess your gonna bash Andy Reid on the bad decison to make his o line coach from the last ten years the defensive coordinator this year? They looked really bad against Dallas last night..... (sarcasm)

If you know football you know football... Vigen has a great football mind and knows offense more then most.... trust me

[CAS4127]

So I guess your gonna bash Andy Reid on the bad decison to make his o line coach from the last ten years the defensive coordinator this year? They looked really bad against Dallas last night..... (sarcasm)

If you know football you know football... Vigen has a great football mind and knows offense more then most.... trust me

Why should we????!!!!!! Also, comparing a 10-year NFL coach (likely more and even some college experience) to Vigen is laughable!!! C'mon, you have to do better than that for us to "trust you"--just sayin'!

[mnriverbison]

Vigen's play calling is so much better this year. That might also be because he has a ton more confidence in the QB who's running it than he has since he's been here. 5 receiver sets!? I would never have thought he was capable of calling plays in that formation. He's this close to getting an apology from me.

This is it for me. It is our right to bitch at the coaching staff when things aren't going well. Playing a freshman QB who you don't have faith in to run the full offense IS a failing of the coaching staff. While we were wrong to direct our negativity at the overall football IQ of the OC, it is absolutely a right of our fanbase to be upset when an entrenched coaching regime can't find a QB that they trust.

So there is my apology to Vigen while maintaining that we were right to be upset at scoring 0 TD's with maybe the season on the line last year against SE MO and M tech or whoever the hell it was.

[bisonaudit]

Are we sure it is actually "conservative" play calling, or is play calling limited by "other" things? My guess is that Vigen cringes many times during the game when Brock fires one into tight/double coverage. Vigen would never throw that if he was out there, and likely lets out a big sigh when it is a completion on a pass he would rather have not seen thrown.

With Jensen completing over 75% of his passes and throwing a single interception in 8 games, if this is actually going through Vigen's head that's entirely on Vigen.

[BadlandsBison]

I don't know what to think of Vigen. He seemed like a bad qb coach, then all of the sudden Jensen starts playing great this season. I would still take Jon Gruden

[THEsocalledfan]

My opinion:

1. Vigen has clearly improved. Looking at how he approached the MN, UNI, and SDSU games, it is hard to find fault. (By the way, the most comical posts in this threads were the criticisms for running too much in the 4th quarter, when we had the lead, and they were playing a back up qb; my other favorite was criticizing NDSU for kicking the field goal when it put us up by 8 and put UNI in an almost impossible situation with a back up qb.)
2. Criticism is valid in a few of the other games as mentioned.
3. People will laugh, but my only concern is I felt, at times, NDSU did not run enough in the 3rd and 4th quarter when you saw how the power eye was killing them.
4. The player point is also valid, to a point. I think with Mohler, honestly, there was very little you could do other then run. Hard to fault vigen for that. I felt the bigger failure was with Mertens. Mertens clearly could have run the type of offense UNI runs (well, at least the running part). It took Vigen until the end of a disaster year to figure out he just needed to run Mertens more and we nearly beat SDSU doing it. I call this "Brad Childress failure" thinking that a player must fit the system rather than the other way around.

[Bisonfan1]

From what I have heard, the players have really bought into his game planning and love playing for the guy. Thats good enough for me. The Bison went deep in the playoffs last year and are playing well this year. His differant looks out there this year are exceptional and yes he had to grasp a quick education as an OC but he had been with the program for a long time and was retained by Bohl when others were not. Things have improved and he looks to have confidence in his players as well to open the playbook. He's learning every game. Keep the train rolling Vigen !! Go Bison !! BTW - he could give a crap about what people think on here as he is the OC of the #1 team in the nation and undefeated. - NICE

[SDbison]

From what I have heard, the players have really bought into his game planning and love playing for the guy. Thats good enough for me. The Bison went deep in the playoffs last year and are playing well this year. His differant looks out there this year are exceptional and yes he had to grasp a quick education as an OC but he had been with the program for a long time and was retained by Bohl when others were not. Things have improved and he looks to have confidence in his players as well to open the playbook. He's learning every game. Keep the train rolling Vigen !! Go Bison !! BTW - he could give a crap about what people think on here as he is the OC of the #1 team in the nation and undefeated. - NICE This above message was paid for by Brent Vigen and endorsed by Bisonfan1 since he is such an a$$ kisser.

[BraxtonT]

My opinion: 4. The player point is also valid, to a point. I think with Mohler, honestly, there was very little you could do other then run. Hard to fault vigen for that. I felt the bigger failure was with Mertens. Mertens clearly could have run the type of offense UNI runs (well, at least the running part). It took Vigen until the end of a disaster year to figure out he just needed to run Mertens more and we nearly beat SDSU doing it. I call this "Brad Childress failure" thinking that a player must fit the system rather than the other way around.

Absolutely agree with the Moehler assessment, but Mertens was not allowed to run because of the lack of confidence in a backup QB. The blame should not go to Vigen for that, but rather to no quality depth and the fear of Mertens getting hurt. After watching Mohler as the QB, I partly understand where the coaches were coming from, but Coach Bohl deserves the blame for not recruiting the QB position for two straight years. Of course, that has been hashed and rehashed too many times over the years, so there is no need to discuss it. Let's enjoy the offense's successes, which include Coach Vigen's playcalling with a full complement of competent players, like he had back in 2007.

[1998braves64]

I guess I'm not a great coaching mind, but would some of the more aggressive play calling be reserved for later in the year due to the fact that the teams have access too all the video of each game? I guess to me if you run it once it's going to be out there for all to know about. CAS mentioned the screen play to DJ that we haven't seen this year (maybe once I think they tried to run it and DJ dropped it? I recall seeing a form of it that did not work as it had in the past) possibly saving it for playoffs this year as they know it's a "for sure" type play... I think the play calling has been better this year but there is plenty of room for improvement? Also it seems if they've been sticking to the game plans which seems to be the case except maybe the SIU game, and have came away victorious 8 times that the players would be happy with that. From my limited football playing times, I don't ever remember us players second guessing the coach's play calling.

[Snowgoose]

Time to bash Vigen for that play calling today. This game really reminded me of the Bob Babich days of play calling. Very little play action passes even when we are running the ball effective. Almost no passing to the middle of the field as most of the passes were to the sidelines. IF YOU CAN RUN THE BALL EFFECTIVELY IS IT SO HARD TO CALL A PLAY ACTION PASS TO HOLD THE LINEBACKERS AND HIT SOMEONE DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD. Does Veldman even play on this team? I know it is one game, but it just seems like an easy concept when you can run the ball effectively to use play action. The only thing I can think is that Jensen's toe is worse than suspected so it bothers him to do drop back passes.

[daddy daycare]

It was terrible. What's worse is they tried to keep up with YSU instead of controlling the pace on their terms.

[CaBisonFan]

Time to bash Vigen for that play calling today. This game really reminded me of the Bob Babich days of play calling. Very little play action passes even when we are running the ball effective. Almost no passing to the middle of the field as most of the passes were to the sidelines. IF YOU CAN RUN THE BALL EFFECTIVELY IS IT SO HARD TO CALL A PLAY ACTION PASS TO HOLD THE LINEBACKERS AND HIT SOMEONE DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD. Does Veldman even play on this team? I know it is one game, but it just seems like an easy concept when you can run the ball effectively to use play action. The only thing I can think is that Jensen's toe is worse than suspected so it bothers him to do drop back passes.

We were outcoached on all fronts...and outplayed on many. Yep...Jensen's injury was exposed today.

I pretty much agree with you Snowgoose.

Man...they were athletic. If they make the playoffs they could do some serious damage. They'd be flying in 'stealth.'

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

I thought we threw too much on 1st down in the second half. That being said, I think Jensen was off more than Vigen.

[Wally]

I thought we threw too much on 1st down in the second half. That being said, I think Jensen was off more than Vigen.

Didn't like anyone's game today. Coaches, players, everyone

[Bison8er]

AHHHHH NO !! Not so fast. 3 points in the second half. Thats a huge problem !!!!

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

AHHHHH NO !! Not so fast. 3 points in the second half. Thats a huge problem !!!!

Yes, but the whole team was flat today. We didn't need to win and we played like it. This is the fault of everyone and no one at the same time. We'll play better when we really need to.

[CaBisonFan]

AHHHHH NO !! Not so fast. 3 points in the second half. Thats a huge problem !!!!

The DJ fumble was the monster play of the game. It changed the momentum to where we never found it back.

[CaBisonFan]

Yes, but the whole team was flat today. We didn't need to win and we played like it. This is the fault of everyone and no one at the same time. We'll play better when we really need to.

As a long-time Vikings fan...this feels familiar.

[Snowgoose]

I thought we threw too much on 1st down in the second half. That being said, I think Jensen was off more than Vigen.

I agree we did throw too much on first down as well, but some of those passes came out of the shotgun. I still am confused as to why we don't throw much over the middle especially with a good tight end. I think Veldman was targeted once tonight over the middle and that was with like 20 seconds left.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

I agree we did throw too much on first down as well, but some of those passes came out of the shotgun. I still am confused as to why we don't throw much over the middle especially with a good tight end. I think Veldman was targeted once tonight over the middle and that was with like 20 seconds left.

Yes, but the pass was off target. I don't think it would have mattered how many time we threw over the middle. Jensen was off today, period. I'm afraid his toe is worse than we think. That being said, I think he won't feel it as much in a game that really matters.

[BisonTeacher]

I dont know why we didnt see more of Ojuri. After a big run they would go away from him for a while.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

I dont know why we didnt see more of Ojuri. After a big run they would go away from him for a while.

I thought we should have run more too, but I just think it wasn't our night. We'll play better when we need to.

[Bisonguy]

I thought we threw too much on 1st down in the second half. That being said, I think Jensen was off more than Vigen.

Didn't throw at all on first down in the 3rd quarter and only 3 of 6 times in the 4th if you don't count the last series with 0:19 remaining.


I thought the second to last series was horrible. A delayed handoff when they were getting pressure, then a long drawn out play action that Brock ends up taking the sack and a holding call, then two horrible pass plays that didn't put Brock or the receivers in a decent

[bisonmike2]

Like to know what he was thinking on the second to last series. Only horrible game he's called this year though. Players didn't help out either. Pretty sure he didn't call the fumlerooski on DJ's run or tell Brock to overthrow our 6'7" TE.

[NDSUstudent]

I had issues with a few play calls...

Running DJ on 4th and 1(Ojuri or Lang should get that carry)....the delayed run with DJ late in the fourth...the fade routes we threw to Holloway during our only scoring drive in the second half.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

Didn't throw at all on first down in the 3rd quarter and only 3 of 6 times in the 4th if you don't count the last series with 0:19 remaining.


I thought the second to last series was horrible. A delayed handoff when they were getting pressure, then a long drawn out play action that Brock ends up taking the sack and a holding call, then two horrible pass plays that didn't put Brock or the receivers in a decent

Listening on the radio for most of second half. Could of swore we threw on first more than that. Anyway, I still think the players were off more than Vigen. If Jensen was on tonight, Vigen looks like a hero.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

I had issues with a few play calls...

Running DJ on 4th and 1(Ojuri or Lang should get that carry)....the delayed run with DJ late in the fourth...the fade routes we threw to Holloway during our only scoring drive in the second half.

It sounded like they were bringing the house in the second half. Why no middle screens?

All in all, the team was flat and didn't make the plays that were called. Plenty of missed opportunities.

[semobison]

The offense didnt give up 24 first downs and 451 yards!

[BisonTeacher]

The offense didnt give up 24 first downs and 451 yards!

Agreed. Defense had a rough day...however, you could say they were on the field more than normal because the offense was struggling.

[semobison]

Agreed. Defense had a rough day...however, you could say they were on the field more than normal because the offense was struggling.

No...we didnt punt in the first half! Time of possession was 37+ minutes to 22+ minutes! Their offense kept our offense off the field!

[BisonTeacher]

No...we didnt punt in the first half! Time of possession was 37+ minutes to 22+ minutes! Their offense kept our offense off the field!

And our scoring drives were Very quick in the first half. and then we went away from the run that was working. I agree man. i think its on both OFF and Def. Defense was Horrible today. But we had the run working in the first half and we went into pass mode in the second half with a somewhat injured QB. Doesnt make a lot of sense.

Defense giving up that TD at the end of the first half might have been worse the DJ's fumble.

[BisonCountry]

Defense was on the field alot because they couldn't get themselves off the field. YSU beat us today on what we have done to other teams all year....LSD(Long Sustained Drives), 3rd Down Efficiency (haven't seen stats but they must have converted 80+%), Passing Efficiency, and they took care of the football.

IMO Offense and Defense can share the blame today....Special Teams was the only real bright spot today.

[BisonTeacher]

Defense was on the field alot because they couldn't get themselves off the field. YSU beat us today on what we have done to other teams all year....LSD(Long Sustained Drives), 3rd Down Efficiency (haven't seen stats but they must have converted 80+%), Passing Efficiently, and they took care of the football.

IMO Offense and Defense can share the blame today....Special Teams was the only real bright spot today.

Very well put.

[tony]

Listening on the radio for most of second half. Could of swore we threw on first more than that. Anyway, I still think the players were off more than Vigen. If Jensen was on tonight, Vigen looks like a hero.

Nobody on earth could have called a better first half than Vigen did. Too bad the defense didn't give the offense more touches.

2nd half looked like NDSU's offense last year when they put a ton of guys in the box and NDSU was unable to make them pay via the pass.

[stevdock]

The offense didnt give up 24 first downs and 451 yards!

And last time I checked the first time that Youngstown actually stopped our offense was either the FG drive or the 4th down play where DJ didn't pick it up. The first half we scored every time we touched the ball.

[godhateswalmart]

We have no desire to go for the jugglar, no aggressiveness, vigen should go back to central valley

[stevdock]

We have no desire to go for the jugglar, no aggressiveness, vigen should go back to central valley

No desire huh?? We scored TD's the first three possessions. Would have scored on the fourth too if not for the DJ fumble. On the fifth possession we were marching again and my only complaint before the FG was throwing 2 fade routes that we really haven't thrown all year and WE stopped that drive. We could have/should have been at 35 points at that point or at least 31 points. Completely different game if those drives finish differently.

[CAS4127]

1st and goal at the 8 & we run two fade patterns that we havnt done all night, one with no RB's in backfield!! Nuff said??!!! Thought so!!

[bisonsupporter]

As I was sitting in my seat, I really could not figure out WTH Vigen was thinking. Our bread and butter, the power run, was getting 5 yards a play. So why in the hell would we want to start going 4 wide and try a vertical passing game? Absolutely stupid, braindead playcalling. DJ's 4th down run was the right call if Grothman doesnt make the tackle on DJ. Any why 2 fade routes? I am losing my hair already, but I was pulling it out. YSU had a great blitzing scheme. Stunts, delayed, and zone blitzes were all used. I give them all the credit in the world, because they knew that Vigen would not call another screen. Hey Vigen! Remind me again the outcome of the very first offensive play for the Bison.
I agree both defense and offense are to blame for this loss. I really did not expect the defense to shut YSU down, but I think we need 3 missing persons reports. The first one is dudzik's coverage. At a minimum 10 yards off of his receiver, even when the ball is being thrown. The second one is Daniel Eaves. I couldnt keep count how many times it looked like Eaves did not know the defensive call and was out of position- especially on the option plays. And the 3rd missing person report is the entire Bison tackling. Jemison had a couple good wrap up tackles, but everything else was a dive at the runners legs.
Back to the thread title. I absolutely will bash Vigen for this effort. He (as well as the entire coaching staff) were completely outcoached. I am still trying to figure out what he was thinking by going away from what was working.

This is my rant for this game. Sorry if it is long and boring.

[BisonFan02]

I never thought I would say this during the season, but Ojuri > McNorton...and it's really starting to show...especially without the screen passes we are used to seeing from DJ.

[bisonsupporter]

I never thought I would say this during the season, but Ojuri > McNorton...and it's really starting to show...especially without the screen passes we are used to seeing from DJ.

Sam is putting his foot into the ground and going North and South. DJ is dancing quite a bit more. They both are trying to hit a homerun everytime they touch the ball. I am wondering if DJ's ankle still isnt bothering him some.

[Twentysix]

Sam is putting his foot into the ground and going North and South. DJ is dancing quite a bit more. They both are trying to hit a homerun everytime they touch the ball. I am wondering if DJ's ankle still isnt bothering him some.

Im beginning to doubt that. DJ was awesome last year, but sam seems like he is just better..

[CaBisonFan]

As I was sitting in my seat, I really could not figure out WTH Vigen was thinking. Our bread and butter, the power run, was getting 5 yards a play. So why in the hell would we want to start going 4 wide and try a vertical passing game? Absolutely stupid, braindead playcalling. DJ's 4th down run was the right call if Grothman doesnt make the tackle on DJ. Any why 2 fade routes? I am losing my hair already, but I was pulling it out. YSU had a great blitzing scheme. Stunts, delayed, and zone blitzes were all used. I give them all the credit in the world, because they knew that Vigen would not call another screen. Hey Vigen! Remind me again the outcome of the very first offensive play for the Bison.
I agree both defense and offense are to blame for this loss. I really did not expect the defense to shut YSU down, but I think we need 3 missing persons reports. The first one is dudzik's coverage. At a minimum 10 yards off of his receiver, even when the ball is being thrown. The second one is Daniel Eaves. I couldnt keep count how many times it looked like Eaves did not know the defensive call and was out of position- especially on the option plays. And the 3rd missing person report is the entire Bison tackling. Jemison had a couple good wrap up tackles, but everything else was a dive at the runners legs.
Back to the thread title. I absolutely will bash Vigen for this effort. He (as well as the entire coaching staff) were completely outcoached. I am still trying to figure out what he was thinking by going away from what was working.

This is my rant for this game. Sorry if it is long and boring.

From what I could see...though limited by the piss poor coverage on my computer...pretty much 'yes.'

[CAS4127]

Ball at 35, theirs, and we go minus 20 or so--ran one run play and are averaging over 6 a carry---hmmmmm!!???

[NDSUstudent]

Ball at 35, theirs, and we go minus 20 or so--ran one run play and are averaging over 6 a carry---hmmmmm!!???

My thoughts exactly and the running play we ran was an absolute joke.

[CAS4127]

Ohh, and recall the thread I started last week that most of u blasted me for-THE DEFENSE NEEDS??? Just effin sayin'!!!

[CaBisonFan]

Ohh, and recall the thread I started last week that most of u blasted me for-THE DEFENSE NEEDS??? Just effin sayin'!!!

I was telling my wife this during the game. Said you had explained this to us. I saw it big-time today.

[CaBisonFan]

Ball at 35, theirs, and we go minus 20 or so--ran one run play and are averaging over 6 a carry---hmmmmm!!???

Shhhhhhhhhh CAS.

[coloradobison]

My thoughts exactly and the running play we ran was an absolute joke.

Agreed with this and CAS' point as well. We should be locked into nothing less than a FG attempt on that possession. DJ's fumble was a killer, and first and goal from the 8 with 2 passes that were uncatchable really hurt. It looked like Brock audibled on the second pass attempt.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

Defense was on the field alot because they couldn't get themselves off the field. YSU beat us today on what we have done to other teams all year....LSD(Long Sustained Drives), 3rd Down Efficiency (haven't seen stats but they must have converted 80+%), Passing Efficiency, and they took care of the football.

IMO Offense and Defense can share the blame today....Special Teams was the only real bright spot today.

yes they both can have blame, but towards end of 3rd and all of 4th quarter that Defense was amazing, final 18 mins or so they only allowed 40-50 yards....so they stepped up huge but they offense couldn't move the ball. They went away from the run and passed passed passed...WHY???? Play calling on offense in the 2nd half got way to predictable, seemed like they got really nervous and confused on what to do imo.

[BisonTeacher]

I expected us to give up some points to one of the best offenses in FCS. not a shocker. AND we were still in the game. Yes the defense needs to work some things out but....We scored 3 points in the 2nd half. Enough said.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

Ball at 35, theirs, and we go minus 20 or so--ran one run play and are averaging over 6 a carry---hmmmmm!!???

run run and run on 1st 2nd and 3rd and kick the fg, but that delay hand off from shotgun was stupid to do.

[bisonsupporter]

run run and run on 1st 2nd and 3rd and kick the fg, but that delay hand off from shotgun was stupid to do.

Exactly! If Jenson's toe is so bad that we have to be in the shotgun, get Thorton in there to hand the ball off. Vigen is making playcalling seem like rocket science. Maybe Vigen was watching too much of the 9-man title game on Friday and thought, "hey this could work on saturday." Idiot!

[CAS4127]

Yes, the delay draw was a pathetic call. Hey, don't run sumthin that is workin!! Purple font!!

[bisonhp330]

2 fade routes on the 8 yd line.......4th and short hand the ball to dj - who is lined up 8 yard deep -( i fail to understand that) and who hasnt lowered his shoulder and took on a tackler all year to get one yard. The Rams had a push- it wasnt off tackle after dancing around it was RIGHT-UP-THE-FUCKING-MIDDLE. Need to hand it to someone that is willing to bash heads and get a yard....hmmmmmm .......a Fullback perhaps?:biggrin:

[gizmo]

By midway through the third quarter it was obvious that the 1-2 punch of Ojuri/DJ was working well and the passing game sucked. It's not too hard to figure that the Bison needed to stay with the run. Those incomplete or short yardage 1st down passes were drive killers. (Tip: Never, ever waste a passing attempt on a play that does not get completed beyond the first down.) I also agree that it wouldn't hurt to give the ball to a fullback now and then.

[stevdock]

Twice last night Holloway needed to come back and fight for the ball, but instead runs his out and sits there waiting for the ball to get to him and in the meantime the ball gets knocked down because of it. Fight for the dang ball.

I know Brock was off last night but I don't know HOW off he actually was. He did end 11 for 22. He was just a few completions away from having a good completion percentage. The ball did look high all night long, but to his credit he consistently made sure it was either our guys having a chance to catch it or nobody. I'm assuming the Pick was just not seeing the guy at all.

[BisonNeil]

Twice last night Holloway needed to come back and fight for the ball, but instead runs his out and sits there waiting for the ball to get to him and in the meantime the ball gets knocked down because of it. Fight for the dang ball.

I know Brock was off last night but I don't know HOW off he actually was. He did end 11 for 22. He was just a few completions away from having a good completion percentage. The ball did look high all night long, but to his credit he consistently made sure it was either our guys having a chance to catch it or nobody. I'm assuming the Pick was just not seeing the guy at all.

Brock's toe has to be bothering his passing more than he is letting on. It's his left big toe and many of his passes were thrown off his back foot, like Mertens used to do. The last two games he has only completed 57 and 50% of his passes. That clip will not get it done in the playoffs. NDSU needs a bye week to get some guys healed up.

[BisoninNWMN]

2 fade routes on the 8 yd line.......4th and short hand the ball to dj - who is lined up 8 yard deep -( i fail to understand that) and who hasnt lowered his shoulder and took on a tackler all year to get one yard. The Rams had a push- it wasnt off tackle after dancing around it was RIGHT-UP-THE-FUCKING-MIDDLE. Need to hand it to someone that is willing to bash heads and get a yard....hmmmmmm .......a Fullback perhaps?:biggrin:


Right on here!

Should have had Lang or Sam in there....a lot tougher RBs.

DJ danced and tripped.......:facepalm::facepalm:

Sam is a better RB....period!

[Bison8er]

Sam should get majority of carries from now on. Vigen is a joke.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

1st and goal at the 8 & we run two fade patterns that we havnt done all night, one with no RB's in backfield!! Nuff said??!!! Thought so!!

Totally agree right here, I was pissed and sorry for the people around me but I agree with this exactly.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

Personally I think they got nervous and the game got to their heads and they were trying to make things work and went away from the stuff that was working....

Why didn't we see a screen pass to DJ that works 9 times out of 10, why didn't Ojuri see more carries, not hating on Brock but you gotta throw the ball away at times and not take a big loss that 15 yard sack killed us, getting into 3rd and long and having to pass isn't going to work to often, I know he's trying to make something happen but there's nothing wrong with throwing it away if in pocket throw in direction of a player but out of bounds. 4th and 1 I think you put and pin them deep but they decided to go for it, go up the middle with someone besides DJ Lang or a FB. 1st and 10 from the 34 and you do a delay then 2 passes?

Not saying Vigen is crap but there are a ton of questionable play calls yesterday.

[unbison]

Personally I think they got nervous and the game got to their heads and they were trying to make things work and went away from the stuff that was working....

Why didn't we see a screen pass to DJ that works 9 times out of 10, why didn't Ojuri see more carries, not hating on Brock but you gotta throw the ball away at times and not take a big loss that 15 yard sack killed us, getting into 3rd and long and having to pass isn't going to work to often, I know he's trying to make something happen but there's nothing wrong with throwing it away if in pocket throw in direction of a player but out of bounds. 4th and 1 I think you put and pin them deep but they decided to go for it, go up the middle with someone besides DJ Lang or a FB. 1st and 10 from the 34 and you do a delay then 2 passes?

Not saying Vigen is crap but there are a ton of questionable play calls yesterday.
Brock often didnt even have a chance to safely get rid of the ball......Also going for it on fourth down....wow..... how many times do you second guess yourself and it works out properly .............i knew as soon as they called a timeout to go for it it was not happening..enough they gotta go to WIU and stomp them out

[NDSUstudent]

I think Vigen over thinks at times. Last year against EWU we were pounding the ball with power and on a critical 3rd and very short we ran that stupid QB option play....We go power twice and we probably get the first down and win the damn game. We run a normal running play instead of that stupid delay and we probably get three or four yards, which completely changes everything.

Brock really needs to get healthy, we need his running ability to help break down defenses.

[BisonNeil]

Here is the opportunity to those of you who have ripped him through the past 2 seasons, to admit that you were wrong. Step up to the table......

I am curious how you feel about Vigen at this point. His play calling in the second half was absolutely horrid. Even Bohl was shaking his head at the fade routes in the end zone after we pounded the ball down there and he was yelling into his head set. My interpretation was that he was not happy with those calls, especially for a QB who is having trouble with his plant foot.

[westnodak93bison]

I am curious how you feel about Vigen at this point. His play calling in the second half was absolutely horrid. Even Bohl was shaking his head at the fade routes in the end zone after we pounded the ball down there and he was yelling into his head set. My interpretation was that he was not happy with those calls, especially for a QB who is having trouble with his plant foot.

Ok, so then why wouldn't Bohl over rule the play call? I'm assuming he hears it in the head set and has a few seconds to say change the call? IMHO, we got out coached in the second half.

[THEsocalledfan]

Haven't had time to comment until now and did not go back and read the last 10 pages.:

1. What was up with the 4th and 1 play call? The center was not even covered. A QB needs to have the green light just to sneak it in that situation even if not called. That was a guarenteed first down, bad toe or not.

2. Why in the heck did NDSU not run the ball on the second to last possession? They were killing them on the ground and had plenty of time. Further, it would have made it that even if they only got a field goal, Youngstown would not have any time to do anything.

That was horrible coaching on those two points. I hope that along with the players, Coach Bohl and staff take a hard look in the mirror. They would very much part of that loss.

[bisonmike2]

After the play calling in the second half, I'm beginning to wonder if we should scrap this thread and create a "Vigen Basher Bashers: Is it time to admit you were wrong?" thread.:)

[mgbison]

I am curious how you feel about Vigen at this point. His play calling in the second half was absolutely horrid. Even Bohl was shaking his head at the fade routes in the end zone after we pounded the ball down there and he was yelling into his head set. My interpretation was that he was not happy with those calls, especially for a QB who is having trouble with his plant foot.





The fade routes into the end zone were't supposed to happen.
1. If you see us run a fade to the wide side of the the field, someone messed up.
2. One was supposed to go to dj on a swing pass and the second one jensen changed at the line of scrimmage. Dj was wide flipping open and was the primary receiver, the ball didn't get thrown to him.

[THEsocalledfan]

The fade routes into the end zone were't supposed to happen.
1. If you see us run a fade to the wide side of the the field, someone messed up.
2. One was supposed to go to dj on a swing pass and the second one jensen changed at the line of scrimmage. Dj was wide flipping open and was the primary receiver, the ball didn't get thrown to him.

So, you are on the team now? Just want to know how "solid" your information is.

[CAS4127]

The fade routes into the end zone were't supposed to happen.
1. If you see us run a fade to the wide side of the the field, someone messed up.
2. One was supposed to go to dj on a swing pass and the second one jensen changed at the line of scrimmage. Dj was wide flipping open and was the primary receiver, the ball didn't get thrown to him.

#1 belies common sense. The more field you have, the more isolation your wide out can get from the safeties, this isolating him with the CB. Also, the balls came out pretty quick, with no indecision, so I question the correctness of this post.

That said, for whatever reason they were called, they were the wrong call.

[bisonhp330]

well MG....since you have the 'in'- how about running a 4th and short giving it to a back who doesnt lower his shoulder, and the run it off tackle to Veldmans side, the weakest blocker on the line at the time....he got knocked a yard deep into the backfield and it disrupted the whole play

http://i40.tinypic.com/rc6a6u.jpg

[tony]

After the play calling in the second half, I'm beginning to wonder if we should scrap this thread and create a "Vigen Basher Bashers: Is it time to admit you were wrong?" thread.:)

Meh, all the offense did was score a TD on every possession until they fumbled. Seemed that the problem was not playcalling - it was that our WRs couldn't beat man-to-man coverage, Brock was a little off, a good play on 4 and 1 just wan't executed very well, and NDSU turned the ball over for no apparent reason.

Time to let this game go and get ready for the next one.

[bisonmike2]

Meh, all the offense did was score a TD on every possession until they fumbled. Seemed that the problem was not playcalling - it was that our WRs couldn't beat man-to-man coverage, Brock was a little off, a good play on 4 and 1 just wan't executed very well, and NDSU turned the ball over for no apparent reason.

Time to let this game go and get ready for the next one.

That's why I said second half. First half was great, second half we did nothing. Actually it wasn't all that bad, it was mainly that second to last series. It was so inept, so backasswards that I really wonder how much thought was put into it at all. Was there a contest where a fan got to pick the plays that drive? Perhaps a 5 year old from the visitors section? Honestly I can't figure out what the hell happened there. I'll let it go for now, but if we end up losing a tight game in the playoffs on the road, I'll be ready to resurrect the Fire Vigen movement.

[BlueBisonRock]

That's why I said second half. First half was great, second half we did nothing. Actually it wasn't all that bad, it was mainly that second to last series. It was so inept, so backasswards that I really wonder how much thought was put into it at all. Was there a contest where a fan got to pick the plays that drive? Perhaps a 5 year old from the visitors section? Honestly I can't figure out what the hell happened there. I'll let it go for now, but if we end up losing a tight game in the playoffs on the road, I'll be ready to resurrect the Fire Vigen movement.

I wasn't going to say anything, but yes. It turns out that TAB's twins won the prize and called a FB quick hitter. But then their call was ignored.

[THEsocalledfan]

I wasn't going to say anything, but yes. It turns out that TAB's twins won the prize and called a FB quick hitter. But then their call was ignored.

Rock, solid work on that comment. That drive was nothing short of baffling. We are killing them on the ground all game, we have plenty of time, and we start throwing? Did they not look at the scoreboard and know a FG ties it?

I have become convinced that many coaches are just plane bad at the 2 minute offense, and now Bohl/Vigen are making me think they are in this camp. Remember SDSU end of the first half?

In regard to this game, you often see this same "goof up" in all levels of football. They start thinking 2 minute offense which should only be throws, right? Well, not if you have that much time and already deep in enemy territory. You need to take time OFF the clock, not preserve it. A run to start in that situation is almost ideal since the D is also likely thinking pass. (You see good coaches do this in the NFL all the time.) That likely puts them in field goal range immediately with plenty of time to win the game outright. No matter what happens, you leave them with very, very little time to respond.

I would not get pass happy in that situation until below 1 minute, for sure, and maybe 30 seconds in inside the 20.

[CAS4127]

Rock, solid work on that comment. That drive was nothing short of baffling. We are killing them on the ground all game, we have plenty of time, and we start throwing? Did they not look at the scoreboard and know a FG ties it?

I have become convinced that many coaches are just plane bad at the 2 minute offense, and now Bohl/Vigen are making me think they are in this camp. Remember SDSU end of the first half?

In regard to this game, you often see this same "goof up" in all levels of football. They start thinking 2 minute offense which should only be throws, right? Well, not if you have that much time and already deep in enemy territory. You need to take time OFF the clock, not preserve it. A run to start in that situation is almost ideal since the D is also likely thinking pass. (You see good coaches do this in the NFL all the time.) That likely puts them in field goal range immediately with plenty of time to win the game outright. No matter what happens, you leave them with very, very little time to respond.

I would not get pass happy in that situation until below 1 minute, for sure, and maybe 30 seconds in inside the 20.

See YSU's series at at end of 1st have. They drove what, 70 or so yards with less than two minutes to go, and threw the ball 1 time--just sayin!!

[THEsocalledfan]

See YSU's series at at end of 1st have. They drove what, 70 or so yards with less than two minutes to go, and threw the ball 1 time--just sayin!!

No kidding.....if that doesn't make my point, not sure what does. What is your opinion on the current state of the Bison two minute offense?

[tony]

No kidding.....if that doesn't make my point, not sure what does. What is your opinion on the current state of the Bison two minute offense?

Actually, doesn't that say more about NDSU's two-minute defense than NDSU's two-minute offense?

No team should be able to run down the field on any decent defense in under two minutes. Period.

I don't want to rip on the defense any more than I want to rip on the offense but the reasoning behind criticizing the offense for the defense's failure is flawed.

[CAS4127]

No kidding.....if that doesn't make my point, not sure what does. What is your opinion on the current state of the Bison two minute offense?

I didn't know we had one!!!!!!!

How's that??!!

[CAS4127]

Actually, doesn't that say more about NDSU's two-minute defense than NDSU's two-minute offense?

No team should be able to run down the field on any decent defense in under two minutes. Period.

Your first question-yes!!

Your second statement-I agree.

BNeil and I have been saying this for weeks, and I even started a thread DURING the ISU-Blue game. Our defense has some serious issues and is inconsistent. With the recent (although I think we have seen issues throughout the year) problems on offense, I will be VERY surprised to see this team make a deep playoff run. What I mean by deep is at least into semi's, and playing competive/well in that game.

I am not joking. We have found ways to win many games this year. Now, some will say, "Good teams find ways to win". My response, a very good team doesn't need to "find ways to win". . . . . . . . . . .

[BisonTeacher]

Actually, doesn't that say more about NDSU's two-minute defense than NDSU's two-minute offense?

No team should be able to run down the field on any decent defense in under two minutes. Period.

I don't want to rip on the defense any more than I want to rip on the offense but the reasoning behind criticizing the offense for the defense's failure is flawed.

But even after that we still had a lead. And after the DJ fumble...we pretty much stopped running the ball.

[bisonaudit]

Your first question-yes!!

Your second statement-I agree.

BNeil and I have been saying this for weeks, and I even started a thread DURING the ISU-Blue game. Our defense has some serious issues and is inconsistent. With the recent (although I think we have seen issues throughout the year) problems on offense, I will be VERY surprised to see this team make a deep playoff run. What I mean by deep is at least into semi's, and playing competive/well in that game.

I am not joking. We have found ways to win many games this year. Now, some will say, "Good teams find ways to win". My response, a very good team doesn't need to "find ways to win". . . . . . . . . . .

I think there's been a lot less "finding ways to win" this season than in '07-'08 when NDSU scored in the last 2 minutes of the 2nd or 4th almost every Saturday and some weeks both.

[CAS4127]

I think there's been a lot less "finding ways to win" this season than in '07-'08 when NDSU scored in the last 2 minutes of the 2nd or 4th almost every Saturday and some weeks both.

Well, it depends on how you look at things. With your logic, I guess we haven't "found" ways to win, as our only loss is to YSU even though we had plenty of time, and nice field position, to "find' a way to win. Otherwise, we have not really been in games where we had to "find" a way to win, as we have been ahead late in games. That said, we have forced several turnovers and had some nice kick returns to help of us win some games--think Minney for example. In short, this team has been anything but dominant for the most part, and I was not surprised to see us lose, and won't be if we lose again.

[bisonaudit]

Well, it depends on how you look at things. With your logic, I guess we haven't "found" ways to win, as our only loss is to YSU even though we had plenty of time, and nice field position, to "find' a way to win. Otherwise, we have not really been in games where we had to "find" a way to win, as we have been ahead late in games. That said, we have forced several turnovers and had some nice kick returns to help of us win some games--think Minney for example. In short, this team has been anything but dominant for the most part, and I was not surprised to see us lose, and won't be if we lose again.

I take your point. Relying on turnovers is a risky game to play, even if you have a legitimately opportunistic ball-hawking defense, i.e. you've got some actual skill at generating turnovers as opposed to it just being luck.

I wouldn't be supprised if we lose again either. At this point, I'd make us the favorite in every game for the remainder of the season but I wouldn't be suprised if we didn't win the National Championship. I wasn't suprised we lost to YSU, and I wouldn't be suprised if Minn gets the best of GB tonight (I gave YSU a 3 in 10 chance somewhere else on this board last week and I give the Vikings about the same chance tonight). I would be suprised if we lost to W. Ill (I'd only give them 1 chance in 40).

[CAS4127]

[QUOTE=bisonaudit;555985]I take your point. Relying on turnovers is a risky game to play, even if you have a legitimately opportunistic ball-hawking defense, i.e. you've got some actual skill at generating turnovers as opposed to it just being luck.[QUOTE]

So, are you saying our D is "Clutch" or not??!!:biggrin:

[BlueBisonRock]

[QUOTE=bisonaudit;555985]I take your point. Relying on turnovers is a risky game to play, even if you have a legitimately opportunistic ball-hawking defense, i.e. you've got some actual skill at generating turnovers as opposed to it just being luck.[QUOTE]

So, are you saying our D is "Clutch" or not??!!:biggrin:

If they shut down the pass / option rather than enabling Hess to be named MVFC offensive player of the week, YES. ;)

[#1BISONFAN ASHLEY]

I dont know if someone posted this already, but the 2nd to last possession we were were at the 40 yard line... we were running the balll pretty effeciently and yet vigen calls 4 straight pass play.. if we just ran the ball to even just the 35 yard line we'd have a field goal to tie the game, i think vigen should think a little more on where the ball is and how jastram can kick

[BadlandsBison]

Polasek for O-coordinator

[SDbison]

Well, it depends on how you look at things. With your logic, I guess we haven't "found" ways to win, as our only loss is to YSU even though we had plenty of time, and nice field position, to "find' a way to win. Otherwise, we have not really been in games where we had to "find" a way to win, as we have been ahead late in games. That said, we have forced several turnovers and had some nice kick returns to help of us win some games--think Minney for example. In short, this team has been anything but dominant for the most part, and I was not surprised to see us lose, and won't be if we lose again. Great post CAS. So very true. I might add Vigen is still learning how to be an offensive coordinator........still not sure he is much of a QB coach either.

[THEsocalledfan]

I dont know if someone posted this already, but the 2nd to last possession we were were at the 40 yard line... we were running the balll pretty effeciently and yet vigen calls 4 straight pass play.. if we just ran the ball to even just the 35 yard line we'd have a field goal to tie the game, i think vigen should think a little more on where the ball is and how jastram can kick

I blasted them pretty soundly on this point. On top of that, they actually needed to take time OFF the clock. I thought it was a collosal coaching failure of not understand that 2 mintue offense is not always about SAVING time.

[CAS4127]

I blasted them pretty soundly on this point. On top of that, they actually needed to take time OFF the clock. I thought it was a collosal coaching failure of not understand that 2 mintue offense is not always about SAVING time.

Plus, I think we were actually at the 35 yard line--not the 40--after the Smith punt return.:facepalm2:

[99Bison]

Plus, I think we were actually at the 35 yard line--not the 40--after the Smith punt return.:facepalm2:
Yep, I was like ok, a 52 yarder is possible, lets RUN down the 4 minutes of clock and try to score a td to win... in the worst case we are forced to kick a long fg to tie without a lot of time left for them... :facepalm2:

I know I wouldn't say anything more about the game, but the 2nd half was epic fail on offensive strategy and play calls, there's no other way around it.

[THEsocalledfan]

Plus, I think we were actually at the 35 yard line--not the 40--after the Smith punt return.:facepalm2:

Yep, you run even 5 yards, and you have a legit Jazzy field goal attempt. Man, you get inside the 20 with less than a minute left, and then, I would then consider ditching the run considering the situation.

[IzzyFlexion]

I dont know if someone posted this already, but the 2nd to last possession we were were at the 40 yard line... we were running the balll pretty effeciently and yet vigen calls 4 straight pass play.. if we just ran the ball to even just the 35 yard line we'd have a field goal to tie the game, i think vigen should think a little more on where the ball is and how jastram can kick

On that last set of downs, didn't it end up 4th and 14? (was there a sack in there?) Nonetheless, does a 57 yard fg try for the tie make more sense than going for it on 4th and 14? I would have rather seen a fg try. Even if he misses, the ball stays there for the change of posession (as it did anyway.)

[56BISON73]

Yep, I was like ok, a 52 yarder is possible, lets RUN down the 4 minutes of clock and try to score a td to win... in the worst case we are forced to kick a long fg to tie without a lot of time left for them... :facepalm2:

I know I wouldn't say anything more about the game, but the 2nd half was epic fail on offensive strategy and play calls, there's no other way around it.

But i am glad you did.

[X-Factor]

1133

Vigen?

1134
Vegan!

[NDSUFan_Sav]

On that last set of downs, didn't it end up 4th and 14? (was there a sack in there?) Nonetheless, does a 57 yard fg try for the tie make more sense than going for it on 4th and 14? I would have rather seen a fg try. Even if he misses, the ball stays there for the change of posession (as it did anyway.)

They had brock in shotgun and they ran a draw with DJ and got stuffed for a loss....pathetic call!

[stevdock]

During that last drive when Brock took a BIG sack it kind of looked like we were setting up a screen based on the blocking. I never did see where Ojuri ended up on the play so I couldn't tell if he was covered or not. Did anyone else see that or was I making the whole thing up?? Either way Brock's got to throw that ball away in that situation, but to his credit a sack is better than a forced pass which turns into an INT which turns into GAME OVER.

Nevertheless I HATED the draw call. Don't you call a draw when the D Line is getting lots of penetration (which they were) AND the LB's are dropping deep (which at least on that play they didn't even move).

[CAS4127]

During that last drive when Brock took a BIG sack it kind of looked like we were setting up a screen based on the blocking. I never did see where Ojuri ended up on the play so I couldn't tell if he was covered or not. Did anyone else see that or was I making the whole thing up?? Either way Brock's got to throw that ball away in that situation, but to his credit a sack is better than a forced pass which turns into an INT which turns into GAME OVER.

Nevertheless I HATED the draw call. Don't you call a draw when the D Line is getting lots of penetration (which they were) AND the LB's are dropping deep (which at least on that play they didn't even move).

Cornick got beat so fast on the play that Brock got sacked that the play didn't even have time to develop, so who knows what the call was. Could have been a screen, but, if it was, and it was to the right side, then Ojuri should have gotten a "chip" on the DE before releasing.

As for the draw play, those are typically set up earlier/during the game/drive. This one was just out of the blue on first down no less, and it was delayed a bit. Plus, DJ was just standing there flat footed when Brock stuck the ball in his stomach. He had no momemtum. Most succcessful draw plays result from the RB having at least some momemtum going or in an explosive athletic stance. We had neither on that play.

[stevdock]

How do you successfully set up a draw other than observations of what is going on throughout the game?? I know most draws are run on 2nd or 3rd and very long when you expect pass so Line is going hard after the QB and LB's are dropping deep.

[bisonsupporter]

I am surprised that Vigen called a draw and not a triple reverse option with Veldman handling the ball. :)

[CAS4127]

How do you successfully set up a draw other than observations of what is going on throughout the game?? I know most draws are run on 2nd or 3rd and very long when you expect pass so Line is going hard after the QB and LB's are dropping deep.

As someone posted earlier, the D needs to be in a position where the D-line is rushing hard and the LB's are bailing back into coverage. For example, a good time to run it is when you need lotsa yards and points in a hurry, so the D thinks you are passing. Or, if you are a predominantly pass team, you can run it more often as well. Sprint draw works the best in my opinion.

That said, we called it on 1st down, from our own 35, had otherwise run the ball fairly well out of our base run package, and we had plenty of time to score either a TD or, at a minimum, and field goal.

Not the call I would have made at the time--but that's just me. You?!

[stevdock]

Alright that's exactly what I was thinking. No I thought it was the wrong time for that play and then double it with the maybe screen the next play and it just didn't work. If the plays would have been reversed with the sack happening first then it would have been just fine. I really think Vigen just overthought the situation and tried to get either too fancy or too complicated for those plays when simple would have worked. Either pound the ball or run a route that Smith ran well all game the post-out pattern when the CB turns his hips.

[Wacker_in_the_Hall]

Bump.......another chance for y'all to fess up.

[Tatanka]

Some recycled wisdom...


Criticisms of Vigen in the past aren't inaccurate now, they simply might no longer apply.

[Rynomite]

Bump.......another chance for y'all to fess up.

Solid bump

[silkamilkamonico]

Vigen has been suspect, and IMO anyone trying to argue otherwise hasn't been paying attention.

QB struggling with confidence, arguably the best RB tandem in FCS, great defense, injuries at WR and questionable depth, and yet he continued to line up in spread formations out of the shotgun and look to pass week after week after week.

He did an excellent job calling plays against SHSU, and in moments throughout the playoffs.

IMO, if NDSU would have stayed with the almost 60% run/pass ratio throughout the last year that he had in the NC, there would be absolutely no issues with people hatin' on Brock. Brock is a arguably a top 3 QB in NDSU history and could go down as arguably the best.

I'll be looking to see how he calls plays next year, and if he goes primarily back to the 3 WR set, shotgun spread formations as the main scheme next year.

[IndyBison]

One of the first things I realized when I started officiating is they know a lot more than I do and I was mostly wrong when criticizing them. It helped me realize officials in other sports know a lot more than I do and while it may seem to me they are being inconsistent or incorrect. I apply the same thing to coaches. They eat, sleep and breath what they do and I am not qualified to say if they are right and wrong. I might not agree with what they do but they know a lot more than me.