Fargo Master Plan 2030

[phpguru]

http://d339kx0h3ogahu.cloudfront.net/Live/Projects/Fargo/Logo+Graphic.jpg (http://www.go2030townhall.com/)


They just had an article on this in the Forum... I'd advise anyone interested or feels they want some say in what the city of Fargo should look like in 2030, to take a look at this site and participate with constructive ideas for the future of the metropolitan area. I've been on there already pretty heavily as I plan on sticking around the area for many years to come...

[ndsubison1]

200,000 ppl in fargo alone would be sweet

[BadlandsBison]

200,000 ppl in fargo alone would be sweet

Bisonator?

[aces1180]

200,000 ppl in fargo alone would be sweet

Why do so many people want Fargo to keep getting more people? Personally, I don't really enjoy visiting anymore because it is getting too big and spread out.

Don't get me wrong, I love going to Bison football games and visiting my friends, but I hate the fact that it takes me 20 minutes to get across town...When I lived there back in the late 90s and early 00s, it took half that time.

[EndZoneQB]

Why do so many people want Fargo to keep getting more people? Personally, I don't really enjoy visiting anymore because it is getting too big and spread out.

Don't get me wrong, I love going to Bison football games and visiting my friends, but I hate the fact that it takes me 20 minutes to get across town...When I lived there back in the late 90s and early 00s, it took half that time.

We need better infrastructure and the people in it are still living in "small town Fargo"...

[BisoninNWMN]

Why do so many people want Fargo to keep getting more people? Personally, I don't really enjoy visiting anymore because it is getting too big and spread out.

Don't get me wrong, I love going to Bison football games and visiting my friends, but I hate the fact that it takes me 20 minutes to get across town...When I lived there back in the late 90s and early 00s, it took half that time.


College at NDSU for me (late 80s - early 90s), 45th was a 2 lane with hardly any traffic. I lived in a house off of 7th and could make it down to 32nd via 45th street, to see my future wife, in about 5 minutes...tops. Now.....holy sh**...take 1/2 hour I bet. The FargoDome was a stubble field which we would race across in our pickups....lol

I like the change personally. I bet F-M gets to that 250K population in 10 yrs or less.

[TheBisonator]

Don't get me wrong, I love going to Bison football games and visiting my friends, but I hate the fact that it takes me 20 minutes to get across town...When I lived there back in the late 90s and early 00s, it took half that time.

OH NO 20 MINUTES!!!!! I'M GONNA HAVE A HEART ATTACK!!!!!!

Seriously, it takes me over an hour to get to downtown TO on the subway.

Quitcherbitchin.

[TheBisonator]

Why do so many people want Fargo to keep getting more people?

Why the hell not?? You'd rather see Fargo shrink?? You don't even live there, why should it matter to you??

[TbonZach]

Why do so many people want Fargo to keep getting more people? Personally, I don't really enjoy visiting anymore because it is getting too big and spread out.

Don't get me wrong, I love going to Bison football games and visiting my friends, but I hate the fact that it takes me 20 minutes to get across town...When I lived there back in the late 90s and early 00s, it took half that time.

I'm with you on this one. The FM area is getting too big for me. I love that it still somewhat has a small town feel.

[TheBisonator]

I'm with you on this one. The FM area is getting too big for me. I love that it still somewhat has a small town feel.

I hope to someday see the day where F-M is seen as a large city.

All of you small-town fetishists need to LEAVE F-M. You're doing the city no favors by wanting the place to stay small.

F-M will never have 5,000 people like you apparently want it to have (unless a global disaster happens), so why even go on about this??

F-M is going to continually grow rapidly, and THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

[TbonZach]

I hope to someday see the day where F-M is seen as a large city.

All of you small-town fetishists need to LEAVE F-M. You're doing the city no favors by wanting the place to stay small.

F-M will never have 5,000 people like you apparently want it to have (unless a global disaster happens), so why even go on about this??

F-M is going to continually grow rapidly, and THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Man. Who lit a fire under your tampon?

[bisonbills]

Why the hell not?? You'd rather see Fargo shrink?? You don't even live there, why should it matter to you??

Well I do live here. I have lived here nearly my whole life. I love seeing new stores and other such amenities move into town. On the other hand, I do not like all the crap that comes along with it, and if you think it will not follow eventually, you are sadly mistaken. Local law enforcement has had a pretty good handle on it for a while, but it will come.

I like Fargo the size it is now. The numbers game is so overrated in my opinion.

The nice thing about North Dakota, if Fargo takes a serious turn south, a small town is never too far away. A one hour commute out here consists of driving 60 miles, not 6 blocks.

[tony]

The nice thing about North Dakota, if Fargo takes a serious turn south, a small town is never too far away. A one hour commute out here consists of driving 60 miles, not 6 blocks.

Well, if six blocks takes an hour, maybe walking is a better option :)

Traffic has never seemed bad in Fargo, but you do have to do a ridiculous amount of driving to do even the simplest errands (not as bad as Twin City suburbs but still pretty bad.)

Once I thought that living in a suburb was the way to go but after putting 350,000 miles on ours car in six years back in the '90s (not to mention two very close calls on my commute), the magic kind of faded. Now, I'd much prefer to live in mixed-use neighborhoods and walk two blocks to grocery stores, pubs, dry cleaners, etc.

[Bisonguy]

Well, if six blocks takes an hour, maybe walking is a better option :)

Traffic has never seemed bad in Fargo, but you do have to do a ridiculous amount of driving to do even the simplest errands (not as bad as Twin City suburbs but still pretty bad.)

Once I thought that living in a suburb was the way to go but after putting 350,000 miles on ours car in six years back in the '90s (not to mention two very close calls on my commute), the magic kind of faded. Now, I'd much prefer to live in mixed-use neighborhoods and walk two blocks to grocery stores, pubs, dry cleaners, etc.


Part of it's just selecting the right location in FM. I'm only about four blocks from a grocery store, liquor store, bowling alley, etc and within walking distance to the Fargodome. When looking for a house we wanted at least some of those features located close by, as opposed to only being surrounded by five square miles of cookie cutter homes.

We need more multi-use trails in Fargo that can actually be used for commuting, as opposed to near the river where they're only used for 6 months out of the year. Heck, I'm surprised there aren't more bicyclists hit on 7th Ave. N between 25th and 45th. A lot of people use that to get to their jobs in the industrial park and it's not a very bicycle friendly route.

[tony]

Part of it's just selecting the right location in FM. I'm only about four blocks from a grocery store, liquor store, bowling alley, etc and within walking distance to the Fargodome. When looking for a house we wanted at least some of those features located close by, as opposed to only being surrounded by five square miles of cookie cutter homes.

We need more multi-use trails in Fargo that can actually be used for commuting, as opposed to near the river where they're only used for 6 months out of the year. Heck, I'm surprised there aren't more bicyclists hit on 7th Ave. N between 25th and 45th. A lot of people use that to get to their jobs in the industrial park and it's not a very bicycle friendly route.

Yeah, Fargo does have some good neighborhoods - just hope there are more like them down the road. I think self-contained neighborhoods help keep crime down.

BTW, I'm surprised any bikers survive in Fargo... I used to commute from campus to around 25th st. south. On the way home at 2am, I used to take 10th Street. That was one scary, 25-block sprint. On the plus side, a couple months of that will get you in fantastic shape (if you survive.)

[NDSUstudent]

I hope to someday see the day where F-M is seen as a large city.

All of you small-town fetishists need to LEAVE F-M. You're doing the city no favors by wanting the place to stay small.

F-M will never have 5,000 people like you apparently want it to have (unless a global disaster happens), so why even go on about this??

F-M is going to continually grow rapidly, and THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

I want Fargo to grow responsibly, which basically is how Fargo has grown for sometime.

If people want a small town feel there are plenty of options surrounding Fargo that can offer that. Honestly there are some neighborhoods in Fargo that offer that, it isn't all sprawl.

[bisonbills]

Well, if six blocks takes an hour, maybe walking is a better option :)

Tony, this is North Dakota..... There is no reason to walk anywhere!! :) :)

[02Bison]

Man. Who lit a fire under your tampon?

He's addicted to Viagra; or Cialis; or is it Extenze? Bigger isn't always better Bisonator.

[OrygunBison]

I want Fargo to grow responsibly, which basically is how Fargo has grown for sometime.


In your assessment of "responsibly", how would Fargo fit into that?

My perspective is exactly the opposite. If done at the current rate with the current system of priorities, Fargo will be about as F'd up as so many other cities in the US. It has done very little but grow outwards, expanding all infrastructure with it while divesting in the existing infrastructure that already has growth capacity. Personally (and professionally) I truly believe in zoning laws that encourage and even require certain minimum densities in certain parts of town. In a sustainable future, we need to have 5 minute communities, meaning that most of what you need on a daily or weekly basis is very close to where you live or work. Reducing commutes is mission one of any good growth management policy.

Some people say that they wouldn't want to live in a dense city and that is fine. I think that the whole point is to have a variety of options for people to chose from as it relates to neighborhood type but to clearly prioritize scattered dense solutions throughout the city, mixed-use neighborhoods if you will.

[DjKyRo]

I hope to someday see the day where F-M is seen as a large city.

All of you small-town fetishists need to LEAVE F-M. You're doing the city no favors by wanting the place to stay small.

F-M will never have 5,000 people like you apparently want it to have (unless a global disaster happens), so why even go on about this??

F-M is going to continually grow rapidly, and THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

So you want me to leave Fargo, and therefore NDSU because I'm from a small town (in western ND, no less!) and admire the environment I grew up in? Roger that, great program ambassadorship. Getting kinda tired of the constant small-town bashing, man. Just because some people don't want a sprawling metropolis doesn't mean they want Fargo to wither and die.

It's about keeping a mentality of social responsibility and familiarity within Fargo. To me, that means keeping growth at a modest (but hopefully still positive) pace and not building just to get bigger. Invest in the future.

Fargo is a key business center in the midwest and that's not changing anytime soon. We don't need to pursue blazing growth just for growth's sake. Population doesn't always directly correlate with value or dollars made and spent back on the local populace.

[NDSUstudent]

In your assessment of "responsibly", how would Fargo fit into that?

My perspective is exactly the opposite. If done at the current rate with the current system of priorities, Fargo will be about as F'd up as so many other cities in the US. It has done very little but grow outwards, expanding all infrastructure with it while divesting in the existing infrastructure that already has growth capacity. Personally (and professionally) I truly believe in zoning laws that encourage and even require certain minimum densities in certain parts of town. In a sustainable future, we need to have 5 minute communities, meaning that most of what you need on a daily or weekly basis is very close to where you live or work. Reducing commutes is mission one of any good growth management policy.

Some people say that they wouldn't want to live in a dense city and that is fine. I think that the whole point is to have a variety of options for people to chose from as it relates to neighborhood type but to clearly prioritize scattered dense solutions throughout the city, mixed-use neighborhoods if you will.

You do realize that city is trying to do some of things you are talking about and has been encouraging that kind of growth for a while now(especially mixed-use neighborhoods). Obviously Fargo has some obstacles in its way when it comes to density but I'd say the city is making strides to becoming denser.

[North Side]

Fargo, Sioux Falls, Billings, and Ft. Collins are all the right population size for me.

I like Fargo. Its got a lot of amenities without the crime, pollution, and traffic you find in big cities. I like how I have anonymity in Fargo. For example, if I got to West Acres not everyone knows my name, but yet if I talk to someone they most likely know someone I know. I couldn't stand living in a small town where everyone knows everyone else and they know who you are and what you're doing(that can be a good thing and a bad thing I guess). Moderate sized towns are where I want to live. I think you get the best of both worlds.

[TbonZach]

Fargo, Sioux Falls, Billings, and Ft. Collins are all the right population size for me.

I like Fargo. Its got a lot of amenities without the crime, pollution, and traffic you find in big cities. I like how I have anonymity in Fargo. For example, if I got to West Acres not everyone knows my name, but yet if I talk to someone they most likely know someone I know. I couldn't stand living in a small town where everyone knows everyone else and they know who you are and what you're doing(that can be a good thing and a bad thing I guess). Moderate sized towns are where I want to live. I think you get the best of both worlds.

^^This. I wish Fargo would stay this size forever. But I know and accept that it won't.*

*that part was for you, Bisonator

[Gully]

I grew up on a farm in Western ND, lived in Fargo for several years (insert joke here regarding my long time in college), and now live in Maple Grove (suburb of Minneapolis).

I always find it amusing that some people think their way is only one way to live and be happy (not directed at anyone in particular or even this thread specifically). I wouldn't trade my time living in all three areas. My ND friends and family think I live in "the city" and my Minneapolis friends think I live out in "the country" in Maple Grove.

Truth is I probably do pretty much the same things I did in Fargo. I'd tell my ND friends that I feel just as safe and the biggest difference is the higher cost of housing and higher income potential. I'd tell my "city" friends that you can do pretty much anything in Fargo that you can do in the Minneapolis area except pro sports and art/museum/concert type things. I do enjoy some of those things, but it's probably an average of once every other month. You can easily make a nice trip to the cities from Fargo to do those things if you only do it a few times a year.

Heck, I can even see the appeal of living in NYC or Chicago. It's kind of cool to be able to get up, walk down the block to a diner, pub, etc. and the people watching is very interesting.

For me, I guess I've picked something in the middle. I can be in Fargo for FB games, etc. in 3 hours from my house and I can be in downtown Minneapolis is 20-30 minutes for either work or play. I have have the suburban life with 2 kids and a dog...still working on the white picket fence though.:)

Part of me misses ND, just because it's home but I doubt I'll ever move back, mostly because of career opportunitities. Maybe I'll retire to Fargo? I'll bet not too many people in the world utter those words!

What is your philosphy regarding location and lifestyle?

Sorry I've hijacked and inserted my own personal blog.:)

[Bison bison]

1. You moved to Minnesota and are therefore a TRAITOR!

2. You can people watch at Walmart.

[Gully]

1. You moved to Minnesota and are therefore a TRAITOR!

2. You can people watch at Walmart.

Ok, but I'm still a Bison fan! BTW, Walmart people watching is also very interesting.....but for different reasons.

[aces1180]

OH NO 20 MINUTES!!!!! I'M GONNA HAVE A HEART ATTACK!!!!!!

Seriously, it takes me over an hour to get to downtown TO on the subway.

Quitcherbitchin.


Why the hell not?? You'd rather see Fargo shrink?? You don't even live there, why should it matter to you??


When did I say I wanted it to shrink? Just because I liked it the way it was back in 2000, doesn't mean I want Fargo to fail. Growth can be good, but like EndZoneQB said, it needs to accompany good infrastructure.

Also, you don't even live in Fargo anymore either and probably never will again, considering the career you are pursuing...

Oh, and just because I don't live there, doesn't mean I don't visit at least once a month...My sister still lives in Fargo and I go back to every home football game...That's probably way more than you will ever make it back. I get to experience the city, you don't.

[rutlandbison]

I hope to someday see the day where F-M is seen as a large city.

All of you small-town fetishists need to LEAVE F-M. You're doing the city no favors by wanting the place to stay small.

F-M will never have 5,000 people like you apparently want it to have (unless a global disaster happens), so why even go on about this??

F-M is going to continually grow rapidly, and THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.
Lakes?? Is that you??

[Tatanka]

Oh my God. Bisonator ate Lakes.


Quick, get a bucket of blazin hot wings and a crave case of white castles. We'll get you out Lakes. Just hang tight.

[OrygunBison]

You do realize that city is trying to do some of things you are talking about and has been encouraging that kind of growth for a while now(especially mixed-use neighborhoods). Obviously Fargo has some obstacles in its way when it comes to density but I'd say the city is making strides to becoming denser.

Sure, there have been advances but there are also very extensive retreats with grave consequences. Look at how far south the city has grown. That wreaks havoc on the infrastructure of a city as well as it's air quality and overall quality of life. There is absolutely no shortage of acreage within the city limits yet they keep expanding it, using all of your tax paying dollars to do it. (BTW - if you try to figure out it that is a liberal or conservative viewpoint, it'll make your head explode...)

So, what are the obvious obstacles to density? I see absolutely none unless it is public will or determination/desire.

For what its worth, I'm not advocating density at all costs, just that it should be prioritized in several key areas spread carefully throughout the city, not just downtown. If you want to live in a quiet residential neighborhood away from commercial, you should still have that option. If you want a five minute neighborhood, you should also have that choice. That is what a comprehensive plan is all about. Looking into your future and seizing in through your current actions. So far, the city hasn't done a good job backing up all of what they say that they want to do.

[Bison bison]

that's because high-use, mixed-density is only preferred IN REALITY by a small number of individuals.

fargo has a decent downtown, but where is nearly all growth occurring? in the southwest side of the metro.

[tony]

Sure, there have been advances but there are also very extensive retreats with grave consequences. Look at how far south the city has grown. That wreaks havoc on the infrastructure of a city as well as it's air quality and overall quality of life. There is absolutely no shortage of acreage within the city limits yet they keep expanding it, using all of your tax paying dollars to do it. (BTW - if you try to figure out it that is a liberal or conservative viewpoint, it'll make your head explode...)


Well, if Fargo didn't grow south, it would have West Fargo would have taken that land and developed it. Plus, you've got Kindred, Harwood, Hunter, West Fargo et al that all are basically bedroom communities for Fargo but who fight like wildcats to avoid paying for infrastructure for the city that employs them. The more land the suburbs grab, the less support there is for the core city. Maybe that is what start the death spiral we've seen in so many cities (i.e. suburbs that pay low taxes, city core that dies because suburbs don't pay taxes to support the basic infrastructure while at the same time putting tremendous stress on that infrastructure.) Maybe it's not that crime immediately follows growth - it's that growth in suburbs comes at the expense of the center city, causing it to deteriorate and thus leading to crime.

If you want to curb the kind of growth that leads to extensive infrastructure costs (roads, cable, electricity, sewer, water, flood control, etc), then maybe zoning has to be done at the county level. Personally, I think one way to promote better growth would be to combine West Fargo and Fargo but that's never going to happen. :) I sure hate to see all that farm land gobbled up. However, nothing is going to change: Growth is going to be messy and expensive and nobody is going to be happy, but it's still better than shrinking.

[tony]

that's because high-use, mixed-density is only preferred IN REALITY by a small number of individuals.


It's too bad this isn't true or we'd buy a place in NYC instead of paying ungodly amount for rent. :)

Granted, in North Dakota, a lot of people do dream of a house on 1-2 acres with a three-car garage that takes up 90% of the street-side frontage plus a roof-line that has at least four pieces of triangular flare*; however, cast your mind forward a decade or two. Do you think older people are going to want to live 20 miles from a pharmacy and maintain a big yard?

* heck, this is what I wanted but once I had it, it really started to wear thin.

[bisonmike2]

It's too bad this isn't true or we'd buy a place in NYC instead of paying ungodly amount for rent. :)

Granted, in North Dakota, a lot of people do dream of a house on 1-2 acres with a three-car garage that takes up 90% of the street-side frontage plus a roof-line that has at least four pieces of triangular flare*; however, cast your mind forward a decade or two. Do you think older people are going to want to live 20 miles from a pharmacy and maintain a big yard?

* heck, this is what I wanted but once I had it, it really started to wear thin.

This will be impossible to live 20 miles from a pharmacy. Wal-greens already has a store on every corner of every street in every town in Minnesota, SD and ND.

[Bison bison]

Tony.

Most of NYC is NOT high-density/mixed-use - you do leave The Village don't you?

Rents are high because of number of reasons beyond individuals desire to live in a high-density/mixed-use neighborhood.

I think that only about 5% of Americans at anyone time will live in high-density/mixed-use developments.

[coldspot]

that's because high-use, mixed-density is only preferred IN REALITY by a small number of individuals.

fargo has a decent downtown, but where is nearly all growth occurring? in the southwest side of the metro.

I would like to see a downtown-style setup begin in south/southwest fargo, almost like a second "core". I'd like to see some small businesses that aren't anchored to the parking lot of a big box store with the focus being on pedestrian traffic.

or some development that would allow for more diverse building that wont turn into urban sprawl like the rest of the south fargo (I loved growing up in south fargo and having to drive 3 miles to the closest business).


just my 2 cents.

[Bison bison]

And how are you and others going to get there?

What's wrong with our current downtown?

[EndZoneQB]

And how are you and others going to get there?

What's wrong with our current downtown?

And how are you and others going to get to our current downtown? It needs big time infrastructure updates/improvements that would likely require $$$$$$$ and/or bulldozing of existing blocks surrounding the current core.

I'm not sure what they have decided with this yet, but if they decide to turn NP/1st into two-way streets, I won't even venture down or through there. No thanks.

[BadlandsBison]

Oh my God. Bisonator ate Lakes.


Quick, get a bucket of blazin hot wings and a crave case of white castles. We'll get you out Lakes. Just hang tight.

We should have Lakes out in no more than 2 hours. One hour if we order some blue cheese.

[bisonmike2]

Has anyone seen the show Inspection: America or American Inspection or something like that on the History Channel? This guy goes around the country inspecting the infrastructure of various metro's in the country. It's incredibly interesting and disheartening seeing how bad this country's infrastructure is falling apart. Anyway it's a very good show and so far I've learned that I should never cross into Wisconsin using the Stillwater lift bridge, Seattle's downtown will be pummeled by a tsunami the next time an earthquake hits because their sea wall is made from rotted wood and that I'll probably fall down into a sink hole the next time I take a walk in St. Paul.

[coldspot]

And how are you and others going to get there?

What's wrong with our current downtown?

like endzone said, downtown needs some major overhauling. parking is a disaster during the week and half of the roads need to be fixed (the idea of making the one way streets two-ways sounds like a major headache). they've already started rebuilding some of the buildings (cityscape project)

if they would have reduced the space between buildings around the multiband building (I refuse to call that a tower) they could have very well had a second downtown between 42nd st and 45th st.


Has anyone seen the show Inspection: America or American Inspection or something like that on the History Channel? This guy goes around the country inspecting the infrastructure of various metro's in the country. It's incredibly interesting and disheartening seeing how bad this country's infrastructure is falling apart. Anyway it's a very good show and so far I've learned that I should never cross into Wisconsin using the Stillwater lift bridge, Seattle's downtown will be pummeled by a tsunami the next time an earthquake hits because their sea wall is made from rotted wood and that I'll probably fall down into a sink hole the next time I take a walk in St. Paul.

that show is awesome.

[Bison bison]

like endzone said, downtown needs some major overhauling. parking is a disaster during the week and half of the roads need to be fixed

the fact that nearly all Americans find the absence of a parking spot within 50 feet of the front door a scandal is support for my claim about the number of people who truly prefer hd/mu zoning.

[Bisonguy]

the fact that nearly all Americans find the absence of a parking spot within 50 feet of the front door a scandal is support for my claim about the number of people who truly prefer hd/mu zoning.


Yeah, I don't see any issue with the parking or traffic downtown. I might not be able to park right on Broadway, but can always find a spot on Roberts or 5th St. HTFU and walk a block, people.

[bisonaudit]

Tony.

Most of NYC is NOT high-density/mixed-use - you do leave The Village don't you?

Rents are high because of number of reasons beyond individuals desire to live in a high-density/mixed-use neighborhood.

I think that only about 5% of Americans at anyone time will live in high-density/mixed-use developments.

You've got to be kidding me. Perhaps by some crazy technical definition but ask any of these posters here who think that at 200,000 people Fargo is to big if they think that most of NYC is high-density/mixed-use and guess what kind of an answer you're going to get.

The future is vibrant, dense, efficient city centers surrounded by a suburban wasteland of MacMansions cut up into tenament appartments.

[TheBisonator]

You've got to be kidding me. Perhaps by some crazy technical definition but ask any of these posters here who think that at 200,000 people Fargo is to big if they think that most of NYC is high-density/mixed-use and guess what kind of an answer you're going to get.

The future is vibrant, dense, efficient city centers surrounded by a suburban wasteland of MacMansions cut up into tenament appartments.

I agree. And just so no one gets me wrong, I am a HUGE proponent of growth in F-M, but I am also VEHEMENTLY against poor planning, and certain phenomena that have occurred in F-M in the past 15 years, namely "leapfrog development", or more aptly described in F-M's case, "peppercorn development".

I am completely for mixed-use, smart neighbourhoods that grow out of an existing city (and are not plopped down in the middle of a wheat field) and mass transit that caters to a maximum number of people. I am actually quite against developers plopping down 100-home subdivisions willy-nilly in the SW part of Fargo separated from other development with no real relation to its surroundings.

Look at how Winnipeg is managing its growth. I would like to see more of that kind of growth in F-M.

Please don't take my rants as being for growth at all costs, I just get furious when people start harping about F-M being too big and wishing it was smaller, that kind of thinking can fester amongst a population and lead to citywide NIMBY rebellion that completely stunts a city's growth.

In any case, I agree with the way this thread turned. It should be a thread discussing ways F-M can grow smarter, not a pulpit for small-town transplants to rail against things like having to spend 20 minutes to drive someplace.

[Bison bison]

You've got to be kidding me. Perhaps by some crazy technical definition

Look at a map.

Most of NYC, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, is zoned for medium-density detached single houses.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=brooklyn&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.337319,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Brooklyn,+Kings,+New+York&ll=40.623855,-73.950959&spn=0.003465,0.008256&t=h&z=18

[tony]

Tony.

Most of NYC is NOT high-density/mixed-use - you do leave The Village don't you?

"Ooookay, if you say so," he says backing away slowly while wondering what he did to tick NDB2 off. :)

Brooklyn's population density is about 35,000 per square mile. If you think that's low density, then Fargo should easily be able to hold 1.3 million people without taking another square foot of farm land.

[TheBisonator]

"Ooookay, if you say so," he says backing away slowly while wondering what he did to tick NDB2 off. :)

Brooklyn's population density is about 35,000 per square mile. If you think that's low density, then Fargo should easily be able to hold 1.3 million people without taking another square foot of farm land.

When I was an architecture student, one of my planning professors told the class that there is a city in India (I forgot the name) that has a population of over 2 million people and covers less land than the city of Fargo PROPER.

I agree, wasting farm land for hyper-low density development is not a smart way to go about things.

[EndZoneQB]

the fact that nearly all Americans find the absence of a parking spot within 50 feet of the front door a scandal is support for my claim about the number of people who truly prefer hd/mu zoning.

Parking is IMO the least of the worries at this point. There is plenty of room to build parking structures under future buildings(why not build them under ground...you're sinking the caissons anyway). The streets are super congested, and will be even worse if there is more of a reason to go down there. I can usually get around *ok*, it's just not easy to get THROUGH the area. There is no way to get down there, either.

[BadlandsBison]

It's too bad this isn't true or we'd buy a place in NYC instead of paying ungodly amount for rent. :)

Granted, in North Dakota, a lot of people do dream of a house on 1-2 acres with a three-car garage that takes up 90% of the street-side frontage plus a roof-line that has at least four pieces of triangular flare*; however, cast your mind forward a decade or two. Do you think older people are going to want to live 20 miles from a pharmacy and maintain a big yard?

* heck, this is what I wanted but once I had it, it really started to wear thin.

Wait, is teh rent TOO DAMN HIGH in New York?

[tony]

Wait, is teh rent TOO DAMN HIGH in New York?

Sorry if I've brought that up too often :o

I suppose if rent really was too damn high, people wouldn't be paying it.

Besides, it is still a bargain compared to buying (by my calculations.)

[Bison bison]

Parking is IMO the least of the worries at this point. There is plenty of room to build parking structures under future buildings(why not build them under ground...you're sinking the caissons anyway). The streets are super congested, and will be even worse if there is more of a reason to go down there. I can usually get around *ok*, it's just not easy to get THROUGH the area. There is no way to get down there, either.

again with the bitching about how the system doesn't accommodate automobiles.

[BadlandsBison]

Sorry if I've brought that up too often :o

I suppose if rent really was too damn high, people wouldn't be paying it.

Besides, it is still a bargain compared to buying (by my calculations.)

I was just quoting that "politician" from NY that was spouting off about rent. Seemed like a good opportunity, heh heh.

[duluthbison]

Well, if Fargo didn't grow south, it would have West Fargo would have taken that land and developed it. Plus, you've got Kindred, Harwood, Hunter, West Fargo et al that all are basically bedroom communities for Fargo but who fight like wildcats to avoid paying for infrastructure for the city that employs them. The more land the suburbs grab, the less support there is for the core city. Maybe that is what start the death spiral we've seen in so many cities (i.e. suburbs that pay low taxes, city core that dies because suburbs don't pay taxes to support the basic infrastructure while at the same time putting tremendous stress on that infrastructure.) Maybe it's not that crime immediately follows growth - it's that growth in suburbs comes at the expense of the center city, causing it to deteriorate and thus leading to crime.

If you want to curb the kind of growth that leads to extensive infrastructure costs (roads, cable, electricity, sewer, water, flood control, etc), then maybe zoning has to be done at the county level. Personally, I think one way to promote better growth would be to combine West Fargo and Fargo but that's never going to happen. :) I sure hate to see all that farm land gobbled up. However, nothing is going to change: Growth is going to be messy and expensive and nobody is going to be happy, but it's still better than shrinking.

That reminded me of something I studied in my Criminology Class a few years back - Burgess Concentric Zone Model of crime. This theory attempts to explain how crime and the make up of a city can be related. The different rings of the circle represent different parts of the city with the core being the dilapidated inner city and the outer ring being the "commuter zone" or suburbs.



Illustrations of Concentric Zones

For examples go to this web site: http://images.google.com/images?q=concentric+zone+model&hl=en&rls=RNWN,RNWN:2006-42,RNWN:en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

Why is Crime So High the nearer you get into the inner-city?

• According to the Concentric Zone view, this is caused by a breakdown of institutional, community-based controls, which in turn is caused by three general factors: industrialization, urbanization, and immigration.

• People living within these areas often lack a sense of community because the local institutions (e.g., schools, families, and churches) are not strong enough to provide nurturing and guidance for the area’s children.

• It is important to note that there are important political and economic forces at work here.

• The concentration of human and social problems within these zones is not the inevitable “natural” result of some abstract laws of nature but rather the actions of some of the most powerful groups in a city (urban planners, politicians, wealthy business leaders, and so on).


Based on human ecology theories done by Burgess and applied on Chicago, it was the first to give the explanation of distribution of social groups within urban areas. This concentric ring model depicts urban land use in concentric rings: the Central Business District (or CBD) was in the middle of the model, and the city expanded in rings with different land uses. It is effectively an urban version of Von Thunen's regional land use model developed a century earlier.[2] It contrasts with Homer Hoyt's sector model and the multiple nuclei model.

The zones identified are:

The center was the CBD
The transition zone of mixed residential and commercial uses
Low-class residential homes (inner suburbs), in later decades called inner city
Better quality middle-class homes (Outer Suburbs)
Commuters zone


http://libwiki.mcmaster.ca/geog3ur3/uploads/Jerusalem/Jerusalemburgessmodel.jpg

[Bison bison]

• It is important to note that there are important political and economic forces at work here.

stupid f#cking sociologists.

an economist's perspective.

after wwII many people's incomes rose. many of these people decided to use their incomes TO BUY CARS AND MOVE to a larger home to raise their children with room to stretch their legs (and also so they didn't have to listen to Old Man Szmernovsky put the lumber to Mrs. Szmernovsky through their paper-thin apartment walls).

there was now a larger proportion of low income people in the central city. a feedback cycle, where people with means left the area to not have to hang out with poor people, began.

the people who remained were either ultra-wealthy and didn't associate with either the middle class or the poor to begin with and those who couldn't afford to move.

low income commit more more crime than wealthier people (and more violent crime). there is also a spatial effect to crime, as crime rises, property values drop, people either fight crime of GTFO.

it was not planners or government or wealthy businesses (that's a fricken hoot) that caused this it was the actions of individual heads of households. this is america not china.


I wouldn't have to read this crap if Ernie B. would have taken an econ class in the early 1900's.

[tony]

I was just quoting that "politician" from NY that was spouting off about rent. Seemed like a good opportunity, heh heh.

hehe, d'oh, that guy was hilarious.

[EndZoneQB]

again with the bitching about how the system doesn't accommodate automobiles.

Yeah, you're right. Why do we need to worry about, what are they, automobiles? I haven't seen one of those in months.

[DjKyRo]

Wait, is teh rent TOO DAMN HIGH in New York?

As a karate expert I won't be talkin' 'bout nobody up here.

[BadlandsBison]

As a karate expert I won't be talkin' 'bout nobody up here.

:rofl: :rofl:

[Bison bison]

Yeah, you're right. Why do we need to worry about, what are they, automobiles? I haven't seen one of those in months.

I always thought one of the primary reasons for mixed-use zoning was so that folks could walk.

Complaining about congestion in Fargo is like complaining about hot weather in Alaska.

[bisonmike2]

again with the bitching about how the system doesn't accommodate automobiles.

I not too worried about cars. I'm more worried about a system that can accommodate rascals. Every damn old person seems to have one now.

[OrygunBison]

If you want to curb the kind of growth that leads to extensive infrastructure costs (roads, cable, electricity, sewer, water, flood control, etc), then maybe zoning has to be done at the county level. Personally, I think one way to promote better growth would be to combine West Fargo and Fargo but that's never going to happen. :) I sure hate to see all that farm land gobbled up. However, nothing is going to change: Growth is going to be messy and expensive and nobody is going to be happy, but it's still better than shrinking.

Actually, it usually needs to be done at the state level. (Perhaps the Cass/Clay counties could do it, though.) In Oregon, we have some pretty rigorous land use laws. They were actually created to save farmland that was being swallowed up by California refugees 30 and 40 years ago. The end effect has actually turned into a model of planning that much of the rest of the country looks to as a model. It is imperfect at best but there is a clear effort to manage farmland, natural land and the cities in some concert.

We have what is called the Urban Growth Boundary (UGB) which is an imaginary hoop drawn around the city. Inside the UGB, there are a variety of zones that the individual cities are allowed to manage as they see fit. Outside of the boundary, it is 1 dwelling per 80 acres for max density. It takes a decent amount of work to ever expand the boundary. All cities then adjust their comprehensive plans to secure the 20 or 40 year state land use directives and goals. This policy curbs any efforts by cities to grab land before their neighbor does it.

I wish I wouldn't have harped on density so much in my previous posts. That's only one part of the equation. Contrary to what NDB2 might have you believe, mixed use is good for a city and it is desirable by most people, once they understand what it means. Most people associate a mixed use neighborhood as a bunch of big buildings where people live in apartments or condos above ground floor shops. That is certainly one example that works particularly well in some places. In other places, it might be a street that is a busy car, bike and pedestrian thoroughfare that goes through a residential neighborhood. Along that stretch, the density is higher. You might have examples of residential or office above ground floor retail along that swath, but it drops back down into the adjacent single family home neighborhoods. This makes it easy to prioritize mass transit through these areas and allows people to walk easily to some of the shops that they use on a regular basis. Seattle and Portland are full of these mixed use neighborhoods and it is one of the things that makes them so livable.

Think of it like a wheel, with downtown in the center and mass transit lines (spokes) radiating out to several mixed use neighborhood further out. Those neighborhoods are also connected to each other, making it really easy to get around and also to understand where you are.

Other parts of the mixed use component that need to be addressed are parks and schools. Nobody should ever have to get in their car to go to the park or take their kids to school. Also, as best as possible, there should be a variety to the mix of commercial and even some (non-loud, non-stinky) industrial so that more people can work near where they live. Finally, people should be able to grow their own food if they want. That means active roof space or more open space on the ground. In a sustainable future, I believe that there will be much, much more green space in our cities.

I live in the Hollywood District of Portland which is on the east side of the Willamette River, about a mile and a half northeast from downtown. It is more than a single dense street and has a pretty vibrant and identifyable feel. You know when you are in Hollywood vs the Hawthorne, Belmont or Irvington neighborhoods. I walk to get my groceries (that one is right across the street), walk the kids to school, drive 10 minutes to doctor appointments (I could take my bike), walk to the park twice a day to let my dog do his business and drive around town to project sites for work. As I am driving, there are lots of bikes around me. Since they prioritize some bike commuting routes, I can find myself heavily outnumbered if on those streets. When my office was downtown, that was a 7 minute commute all the way to my parking structure stall. We have three chickens that roam the neighborhood and a garden for certain veggies that we like. Over the next few years, we'll continue to add to our garden space. I am currently designing a small box planter that will hang on the deck railing that is on top of my garage.

Because of the place that we live, my wife and I can be a one-car family. On that car, we only put on about 12-15,000 miles a year, including the vacation trips that we take by car. We've been a one car family for about 7 years now. Other than for work, I can count on one hand the number of times that I have needed to rent a car because of my wife and I needing a car at the same time. That saves a ton of money for us and certainly lessens the overall air quality degradation in our region. This is VERY common here, at least in Portland proper.

Because of this motivation of city and state leaders to act on these goals, Portland is a pretty cool city to live in. From a density perspective, it is far less than Los Angeles. (LA is actually pretty dense while still being the poster child for urban sprawl.) The mixed use feel, however, makes it seem more like community. This is why I moved across the country to live here.

[Bison bison]

Where did I say mixed-use is bad?

I think it's great, but to get it to work people need to change their residential choice and travel behavior.

But that ain't happening. Americans love cars. And once an individual has a car they use it - pretty much all the time. But then need a place to park. And once you have a car, you might as well live in the suburbs were there is a little more room, better schools, fewer brown people...

[bisonaudit]

Where did I say mixed-use is bad?

I think it's great, but to get it to work people need to change their residential choice and travel behavior.

But that ain't happening. Americans love cars. And once an individual has a car they use it - pretty much all the time. But then need a place to park. And once you have a car, you might as well live in the suburbs were there is a little more room, better schools, fewer brown people...

It is happening.

We love our cars. I love my car, but I used to drive it 13,000 miles a year, now I drive it 8,000.

Some friends of ours just sold their massive single family "dream house" in suburban st. paul and relocated to a condominium with a river view. Less labor associated with the dwelling and closer to work and play. Old people are getting older and they want/need to be closer to services and have less maintenance worries. Young people are having smaller families, have less time and are more willing to pay to avoid time consuming chores that used to be associated with the "american dream", which is still alive and well, but the definition is changing.

[OrygunBison]

Where did I say mixed-use is bad?

I think it's great, but to get it to work people need to change their residential choice and travel behavior.

But that ain't happening. Americans love cars. And once an individual has a car they use it - pretty much all the time. But then need a place to park. And once you have a car, you might as well live in the suburbs were there is a little more room, better schools, fewer brown people...

Your logic is completely backwards, my friend. People have few choices but to rely on their car. I am one of those people that actually loves to drive. I'm not saying that people must stop all driving. But, I don't know a ding-dong person that likes to commute in stinky air in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

For better or worse, the model that I'm referring to IS the future. There's a bunch of momentum headed that direction and it is the most direct path to having sustainable cities. Much of this will be codified over the next 10-15 years, regardless of what people think. Many people making the decisions think this is for the greater good of society and our planet. If you want your voice heard, do it now. Next year will be too late.

Obviously based on my response, this is a very important issue to me. It is integral to my entire life, why I live here, how I practice as an architect and how I raise my kids. I've been to many national seminars on Smart Growth and sustainable cities. I've listened to lectures of some of the top minds in the world on this topic. If anyone wants to know more, PM me so I'm not offending anyone with such a verbose response as my last. I'm kind of embarrassed that that one didn't fit on my screen...

[OrygunBison]

It is happening.

We love our cars. I love my car, but I used to drive it 13,000 miles a year, now I drive it 8,000.

Some friends of ours just sold their massive single family "dream house" in suburban st. paul and relocated to a condominium with a river view. Less labor associated with the dwelling and closer to work and play. Old people are getting older and they want/need to be closer to services and have less maintenance worries. Young people are having smaller families, have less time and are more willing to pay to avoid time consuming chores that used to be associated with the "american dream", which is still alive and well, but the definition is changing.

I get what you mean but I think that it is simpler than that. People want choices and currently most cities only offer two - the un-serviced suburbs or the loud inner city. I'm saying that there is a better way. Neighborhoods can sprout everywhere. It doesn't look like a mini-mall.

[Bison bison]

FYI: I've served on panels at national conferences on smart growth/livability.

[Bison bison]

I get what you mean but I think that it is simpler than that. People want choices and currently most cities only offer two - the un-serviced suburbs or the loud inner city. I'm saying that there is a better way. Neighborhoods can sprout everywhere. It doesn't look like a mini-mall.

I'd like a single example of a metropolitan area that provides only these two 'choices'.

[OrygunBison]

I'd like a single example of a metropolitan area that provides only these two 'choices'.

Figuratively, Fargo. Generally, housing only types of neighborhoods vs. downtown or commercial areas. In full disclosure, I don't live there now so perhaps something has change radically since I last really drove around town. I don't remember ever seeing any well developed mixed use parts of town. Maybe I'm wrong.

[OrygunBison]

FYI: I've served on panels at national conferences on smart growth/livability.

That's cool. What is your topic of expertise? I'm just a schmuck on the implementation and evangelizing side of things. I haven't really done any of my own research, other than the design work that I am doing on some mixed-use buildings.

We're currently working on something pretty innovative as it relates to a mixture of uses coming together in one building. The site is about 10,000 s.f. on one of those commuter type neighborhood streets. It will be compact housing (350s.f. - 500s.f.) over live/work cubes (1,000 s.f. total in each) with a portion of the ground floor being a shared neighborhood commercial kitchen (maybe 1,000 s.f. or so - still developing it) with a community garden on the roof. The thought on the kitchen is that my client is trying to provide space for smaller restaurants, coffee shops and bakeries in the neighborhood to lease out for part of the week if they don't want to own all of the equipment themselves and need to increase their business footprint in doing so.

[Bison bison]

Figuratively, Fargo. Generally, housing only types of neighborhoods vs. downtown or commercial areas. In full disclosure, I don't live there now so perhaps something has change radically since I last really drove around town. I don't remember ever seeing any well developed mixed use parts of town. Maybe I'm wrong.

Nothing has changed.

But as you noted earlier there are defacto pockets of mixed-use where residential areas overlap with commercial. I live in West Fargo which is basically low-density residential city. However, the corner of 13th Ave and 9th St is actually a very livable location. As is the area by NDSU, all of downtown - which I wouldn't label 'loud' by any stretch of the imagination.

http://www.walkscore.com/

[tony]

Nothing has changed.

But as you noted earlier there are defacto pockets of mixed-use where residential areas overlap with commercial. I live in West Fargo which is basically low-density residential city. However, the corner of 13th Ave and 9th St is actually a very livable location. As is the area by NDSU, all of downtown - which I wouldn't label 'loud' by any stretch of the imagination.

http://www.walkscore.com/

That is a very cool site - I'll be sure to use that to evaluate neighborhoods next time I move.

[OrygunBison]

Nothing has changed.

But as you noted earlier there are defacto pockets of mixed-use where residential areas overlap with commercial. I live in West Fargo which is basically low-density residential city. However, the corner of 13th Ave and 9th St is actually a very livable location. As is the area by NDSU, all of downtown - which I wouldn't label 'loud' by any stretch of the imagination.

http://www.walkscore.com/

I didn't mean that downtowns are loud, but that most people perceive it that way.

I like those accidental pockets of mixed-use that can happen. I think that it can be a very good example for the "free market" guys that like government to stay out of these sorts of things. Unfortunately, I just don't think that this is enough. Fargo needs more of those options. They need to be spread out in every part of town as well as the Metro area. I don't think that will come without a mandate of sorts. That comes in the form of the comprehensive plan which is the point of this whole thread.

Certainly, the area around the NDSU campus has changed for the better over the years to be mixed use. When I was in school, we basically had to drive if you wanted something other than the Turf or Chubs food.

For the walkscore, I get an 86 at the place that I live here. Interestingly, the last place I lived in Fargo was over by the Post Office in downtown. It scores a fabulous 97. I will say that it WAS very loud there, but that may have been because of the railroad tracks both north and south of us, the truck traffic at all hours going to the post office and, of course the knife fights at the Flame.

[TheBisonator]

I didn't mean that downtowns are loud, but that most people perceive it that way.

I like those accidental pockets of mixed-use that can happen. I think that it can be a very good example for the "free market" guys that like government to stay out of these sorts of things. Unfortunately, I just don't think that this is enough. Fargo needs more of those options. They need to be spread out in every part of town as well as the Metro area. I don't think that will come without a mandate of sorts. That comes in the form of the comprehensive plan which is the point of this whole thread.

Certainly, the area around the NDSU campus has changed for the better over the years to be mixed use. When I was in school, we basically had to drive if you wanted something other than the Turf or Chubs food.

For the walkscore, I get an 86 at the place that I live here. Interestingly, the last place I lived in Fargo was over by the Post Office in downtown. It scores a fabulous 97. I will say that it WAS very loud there, but that may have been because of the railroad tracks both north and south of us, the truck traffic at all hours going to the post office and, of course the knife fights at the Flame.

South Minneapolis has a lot of what you're talking about. There are street corners spaced out every 6 blocks to a mile that are like a little hub of activity (50th/Xerxes and Penn/54th are just a couple examples I know, there are a lot more examples of this in South Mpls.) and these areas aren't even new concepts. They have been zoned mixed use/commercial for many decades.

There are a couple (sad and pathetic) versions of this in Fargo, namely if you drive up 10h Street, also 15th and Broadway is a better example of this. But the issue in Fargo has been closure of businesses on those corners.

I personally love the idea of these mixed-use "mini-downtowns" located on the intersections of key streets in an urban area that's gridded. I kinda wish that idea didn't die out after WWII.

[OrygunBison]

I personally love the idea of these mixed-use "mini-downtowns" located on the intersections of key streets in an urban area that's gridded. I kinda wish that idea didn't die out after WWII.

Turn that frown upside down. It's coming back.

[EndZoneQB]

I always thought one of the primary reasons for mixed-use zoning was so that folks could walk.

Complaining about congestion in Fargo is like complaining about hot weather in Alaska.

No, I get that. Just saying that cars are a necessary evil in most cases. I would like to be able to walk to work, store, etc. I'm just not so sure it is feasible 12months a year in Fargo.

[Bison bison]

Poor people seem able to do it just fine.

[EndZoneQB]

Poor people seem able to do it just fine.

LOL touche I guess? But remember, people aren't doing it by necessity here, you have to convince them it is better for THEM. I just see it as a hard sell here.

I also should point out that I was probably looking at this more from my job's perspective...I need my work vehicle and that won't go away, likely ever. Plus, right now, there needs to be better infrastructure around downtown before we can even consider not driving through it. If I am going from Moorhead to north Fargo, I can go through downtown(slow), drive my a** to the freeway(slow and long), or hit the toll bridge. Not to mention, you can't hit the main north road(10th st) from Main Avenue so you have to use 1st or navigate around that area from Main.

[tony]

Poor people seem able to do it just fine.

Heh, in winter, I used to have to walk to my job on 32nd Ave north in the afternoon, come back and do some homework and then walk to my night job on 25th Ave south in the winter (so 13 miles easy.) And, yeah, I was "DIY dentistry" poor at the time.

[NDSU_grad]

I have a walk score of 12.

Edit: The stupid walkscore map doesn't have my house in the right place. I'm guessing my walkscore is lower than 12.

[ndsubison1]

everybody will have these to get around

http://www.baldheretic.com/pics/home/2009flood/bhflood4.jpg


http://www.baldheretic.com/pics/home/2009flood/bhflood5.jpg

[OrygunBison]

LOL touche I guess? But remember, people aren't doing it by necessity here, you have to convince them it is better for THEM. I just see it as a hard sell here.

I also should point out that I was probably looking at this more from my job's perspective...I need my work vehicle and that won't go away, likely ever. Plus, right now, there needs to be better infrastructure around downtown before we can even consider not driving through it. If I am going from Moorhead to north Fargo, I can go through downtown(slow), drive my a** to the freeway(slow and long), or hit the toll bridge. Not to mention, you can't hit the main north road(10th st) from Main Avenue so you have to use 1st or navigate around that area from Main.

It is not necessarily all about eliminating the cars...although that would be the goal of some people. It is more about planning your city so that there are more options closer to every part of town, thus greatly reducing the number of miles that you HAVE to drive just to live. In doing so, walkable and bikeable options will also develop.

I know that it'll be a tough sell in many places but I have no doubt about the future of this strategy when gas gets to $5 or$ 6 a gallon.

[SlickVic]

It is not necessarily all about eliminating the cars...although that would be the goal of some people. It is more about planning your city so that there are more options closer to every part of town, thus greatly reducing the number of miles that you HAVE to drive just to live. In doing so, walkable and bikeable options will also develop.

I know that it'll be a tough sell in many places but I have no doubt about the future of this strategy when gas gets to $5 or$ 6 a gallon.

F that if it ever comes to me having to ride a bike anywhere I'd rather move into bison8ters basement n help him draw up some toons for a living srsly I got some good storyboards n shit yo hit me up

[HerdBot]

I would like to see a downtown-style setup begin in south/southwest fargo, almost like a second "core". I'd like to see some small businesses that aren't anchored to the parking lot of a big box store with the focus being on pedestrian traffic.

or some development that would allow for more diverse building that wont turn into urban sprawl like the rest of the south fargo (I loved growing up in south fargo and having to drive 3 miles to the closest business).


just my 2 cents.

That's a great idea. Seems like we can duplicate old fashioned looking buildings with places like JL Beers. It would be cool seeing a new development like that with all old buildings.

[99Bison]

Isn't that what "urban plains" was/is supposed to be? Two downtownish feeling "urban" area's amongst the sprawl around.

[coldspot]

Isn't that what "urban plains" was/is supposed to be? Two downtownish feeling "urban" area's amongst the sprawl around.

right now it looks like an extension of the west acres area.

[duluthbison]

Isn't that what "urban plains" was/is supposed to be? Two downtownish feeling "urban" area's amongst the sprawl around.

It was a giant circlejerk with some developers and the city. I don't think that dream will ever be realized.

[OrygunBison]

Seems like we can duplicate old fashioned looking buildings...

Yikes. Constructing new buildings to look like they are old? That's not design, it's Disneyland. You don't need old buildings to create an urban feel. You just need to pay attention to every single detail on your new building. Great urban spaces are mostly about how doors are placed, how the fenestration works, massing, datum lines, base features, lighting, furniture, plantings, etc.

It always makes me cringe when people assume that history can be re-created. If that's what you're trying to do, you've already lost. Unfortunately, I constantly find myself in this discussion when designing in an urban area.

[mgbison]

I think its sad to see 2 huge typical Fargo apartment buildings going up in the urban plains development. The biggest problems I have with fargo is that all the apartment buildings look the same and don't have any character and are eyesores.

[99Bison]

It was a giant circlejerk with some developers and the city. I don't think that dream will ever be realized.

Yea... that was kinda the point.

[Bison bison]

It always makes me cringe when people assume that history can be re-created.

Oh, yeah? Jay Gatsby has something to say about that.

[Bison bison]

Yikes. Constructing new buildings to look like they are old? That's not design, it's Disneyland.

You got something against Disneyland, Stalin?

:)

[Bison bison]

I was all but sure that Urban Plains' vision of developing a New Urbanism neighborhood was likely to fail.

Sad to see it.

[HerdBot]

I would rather see the FM area grow. Do I want to have a million people? No. 200k in Fargo alone? Absolutely.

Like anything, declining or remaining flat, sucks. If your not getting bigger and better your getting worse. I enjoy watching the city grow, especially living here much of my life. But I want more entertainment and things to do.

Don't want to be Grand Forks.

[Bisonguy]

I would rather see the FM area grow. Do I want to have a million people? No. 200k in Fargo alone? Absolutely.

Like anything, declining or remaining flat, sucks. If your not getting bigger and better your getting worse. I enjoy watching the city grow, especially living here much of my life. But I want more entertainment and things to do.

Don't want to be Grand Forks.

The biggest buzz in El Forko the past decade is that they're finally getting an Olive Garden. Fargo has a long way to drop to get to that level.

[coldspot]

The biggest buzz in El Forko the past decade is that they're finally getting an Olive Garden. Fargo has a long way to drop to get to that level.

you know grand forks sucks when there's more going on in East Grand Forks.

[tony]

I was all but sure that Urban Plains' vision of developing a New Urbanism neighborhood was likely to fail.

Sad to see it.

Don't lose hope - a lot of ambitious developments start out looking like failures but then turn into incredible assets. I'm basing this off of something I half-remember that somebody might have told me about part of London (crux: Guys built a huge developments in Kensington or some neighborhood like that, it was a bust, and now the area makes Manhattan look affordable.)

Of course, they built the development in Victorian times so there wasn't a lot of plywood and glue guns involved - the buildings could still be standing in 400 years. Don't think that can be said about much residential real estate in Fargo.

[TheBisonator]

Don't lose hope - a lot of ambitious developments start out looking like failures but then turn into incredible assets. I'm basing this off of something I half-remember that somebody might have told me about part of London (crux: Guys built a huge developments in Kensington or some neighborhood like that, it was a bust, and now the area makes Manhattan look affordable.)

Of course, they built the development in Victorian times so there wasn't a lot of plywood and glue guns involved - the buildings could still be standing in 400 years. Don't think that can be said about much residential real estate in Fargo.

The issue with Urban Plains is the way they laid out the streets. There's way too much space between the streets, even in the residential zones.

[spelunker64]

I'm thinking this:

http://artstyleonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/picture.jpg

[TbonZach]

I'm thinking this:

http://artstyleonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/picture.jpg

"....Two days before the day after tomorrow." (http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e08-two-days-before-the-day-after-tomorrow)

[HerdBot]

I'm thinking this:

http://artstyleonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/picture.jpg

Turn fargo into venice.