Kill the University System/SBOHE

[Bison bison]

The North Dakota University System and State Board of Higher Education as they currently exist are a farce.

1. There is no 'system'. There are 11 independent schools that work together when it is to their benefit and independently when it is not.

2. There is no leadership. Who has more power in Bismarck: Goetz, Bresciani, or Kelly? (The answer - it depends on if Goetz is in the room or not.)

3. The system is inefficient. Contrary to common knowledge, North Dakota devotes significant levels of funding to higher ed. This goes beyond maintaining institutions that should arguably be closed.

4. The system is a bottomless pit. The funding requests the SBOHE submits are ludicrous. 25% increases biennium after biennium. Equal capital funding request for Mayville State and NDSU.


So my question is: should the University System and SBOHE be dismantled?

[Superfan]

The North Dakota University System and State Board of Higher Education as they currently exist are a farce.

1. There is no 'system'. There are 11 independent schools that work together when it is to their benefit and independently when it is not.

2. There is no leadership. Who has more power in Bismarck: Goetz, Bresciani, or Kelly? (The answer - it depends on if Goetz is in the room or not.)

3. The system is inefficient. Contrary to common knowledge, North Dakota devotes significant levels of funding to higher ed. This goes beyond maintaining institutions that should arguably be closed.

4. The system is a bottomless pit. The funding requests the SBOHE submits are ludicrous. 25% increases biennium after biennium. Equal capital funding request for Mayville State and NDSU.


So my question is: should the University System and SBOHE be dismantled?

I'd be lying if I said that I knew that much about it and as an NDSU grad it's even harder to say that the SBOHE is worth a crap, but my understanding is that it was formed to keep partisan politics from screwing up our universities. That to me seems like a good idea. Whether or not it's working is probably up for debate.

[tony]

And having the university system run by the Legislature would be more efficient?

The most cost-efficient institution in the whole system is the one they complain about the most.

[lakesbison]

tony is right.

and i am right in saying for the last 5 years.

Kill the SBOHE, let NDSU get it's own Board of Regents.

[Tatanka]

I'd be lying if I said that I knew that much about it and as an NDSU grad it's even harder to say that the SBOHE is worth a crap, but my understanding is that it was formed to keep partisan politics from screwing up our universities. That to me seems like a good idea. Whether or not it's working is probably up for debate.

It's just a different brand of partisan politics. Not political party vs political party...

Bottom line to me is as long as nobody is willing to deal with the 800lb gorilla in the room *cough* *toomanysmallercampuses* *cough*, and as long as everyone is duckies and bunnies with a significant disparity in funding then things will continue to be a clusterf***. As it stands the only way to get NDSU more funding also involves giving equal or more funding to several other campuses regardless of actual need, value to the student, and return on the taxpayers' investment.

The same folks that continually complain about the rising costs of higher ed would fight tooth and nail if the real solution was brought up.

[NorthernBison]

tony is right.

and i am right in saying for the last 5 years.

Kill the SBOHE, let NDSU get it's own Board of Regents.

I'm not really sure what the heck your point is. Tony IS absolutely correct though.

The alternative to the SBoHE is to have the LEGISLATURE run things and let each School lobby for what they need.

I can't see that being a good thing.

[Tatanka]

I'm not really sure what the heck your point is. Tony IS absolutely correct though.

The alternative to the SBoHE is to have the LEGISLATURE run things and let each School lobby for what they need.

I can't see that being a good thing.

This. Barnum and Bailey would be proud if higher ed was run by the legislature. We'd also need a lot more shriners.

[phpguru]

I'd say the time is ripe for starting an effort to close/consolidate half the schools in the state. What exactly would it take in terms of signatures to get this to a vote? I'm aware of the constitutional protection the smaller schools claim to have, but even that can be overturned.

So what would it seriously take? 25k signatures? 50k?

(and don't bother responding with "a miracle")

[NDSUstudent]

Letting the legislature take over would probably be the best thing that could ever happen for UND.

[Tatanka]

Letting the legislature take over would probably be the best thing that could ever happen for UND.

Hence some of the recent legislation...

[NorthernBison]

I'd say the time is ripe for starting an effort to close/consolidate half the schools in the state. What exactly would it take in terms of signatures to get this to a vote? I'm aware of the constitutional protection the smaller schools claim to have, but even that can be overturned.

So what would it seriously take? 25k signatures? 50k?

(and don't bother responding with "a miracle")

In general, what you are talking about requires changes to the Constitution. Schools COULD close without changing the Constitution and it has happened but I wouldn't count on it.

The two most likely ways changes could be made in ND are:

1. Initiated Constitutional Amendment. It requires 4% of the population to sign petitions (about 25,000 signatures) and then a majority vote in a general election.

2. Legislatively referred measure. Basically, majority of both houses of the Legislature must approve and then it goes on the next general election ballot.


There are a bunch of specific things I left out and I hope I got the terminology right. The level of politics involved and the public discourse would be incredible. You used the term miracle. Probably not too much of a stretch.

[Ferd]

Each of the 11 institutions have a large number of legislators within 75 miles of them. None of them want "their" institution to close. Each of the legislators want to protect their own turf and would band together.

Thus, IMHO, the only way it would happen is for an initiated measure to change the constitution to eliminate institutions. Probably have to be done one at a time, too.

Ellendale Teachers College closed after a fire destroyed at least one of the major buildings on campus.


"1970 (January 9) Carnegie Hall (built 1902) and the Home Economics Building (the campus’ first building, erected 1899) are destroyed by fire. The disaster, combined with ongoing funding difficulties, raise concern that Ellendale could permanently lose the school.



1972: By a 60% margin, North Dakota voters approve a constitutional measure to transfer ownership of the Ellendale campus to Trinity Bible College (formerly located in Jamestown) for one dollar. Under the leadership of President Roy Wead, the campus begins a new chapter in its history. " - TOM ISERN’S TALK ON “JOURNEY STORIES” (Delivered at the Gala Presentation on Monday, January 25, 2010)

[Superfan]

I'd say the time is ripe for starting an effort to close/consolidate half the schools in the state. What exactly would it take in terms of signatures to get this to a vote? I'm aware of the constitutional protection the smaller schools claim to have, but even that can be overturned.

So what would it seriously take? 25k signatures? 50k?

(and don't bother responding with "a miracle")

I'm confused as to why we want to close some of the smaller campuses. Which ones are we talking about? BSC? DSU? MSU? These types?

[Ferd]

I'm confused as to why we want to close some of the smaller campuses. Which ones are we talking about? BSC? DSU? MSU? These types?

More like Mayville and Valley City, if any.

[Superfan]

More like Mayville and Valley City, if any.

Ok...but why?

[Tatanka]

I'm confused as to why we want to close some of the smaller campuses. Which ones are we talking about? BSC? DSU? MSU? These types?

Take a closer look at the funding given to each campus and its projects, and the total budget for each relative to enrollment. Think along the lines of ROI to the taxpayer. The answer will become clear.

To me, BSC, DSU, MSU serve their respective parts of the state and are not necessarily part of the problem.

[NDSUstudent]

Ok...but why?

They are just a drain on the system.

[Superfan]

Are they running that big of deficits to where if they were closed it would actually benefit other schools in the state? Seems like the amount of money Mayville may lose a year might only be a drop in the bucket to NDSU and UND's budgets to where it's almost negligible.

[CAS4127]

Are they running that big of deficits to where if they were closed it would actually benefit other schools in the state? Seems like the amount of money Mayville may lose a year might only be a drop in the bucket to NDSU and UND's budgets to where it's almost negligible.

Plus we would hear the cries of "but where are all the ND kids going to play post-HS sports??!!:nod:

[tony]

Are they running that big of deficits to where if they were closed it would actually benefit other schools in the state? Seems like the amount of money Mayville may lose a year might only be a drop in the bucket to NDSU and UND's budgets to where it's almost negligible.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/fiscal/biennium-reports/57-2001/budget-analysis/executive/pdf/executivebudget/ndusopcosts.pdf

Note: NDSU was the most underfunded to begin with but look who got the brunt of the cuts back then.

Don't know if there's a similar deal for this legislative session.

Can't even believe this quote:


“I’m terribly, terribly frustrated with higher education,” said Rep. Bob Martinson, R-Bismarck. One of his frustrations is the universities’ insistence on comparing their funding levels to peers, he said, a comparison that nobody buys.
Skarphol followed that train of thought, saying that he can’t understand how universities have not caught up with their peers in this day and age, a reference to other states’ financial miseries.

The two guys being quoted here are displaying an unbelievable level of ignorance considering that they want to run higher ed themselves. They should be embarrassed. Not frustrated. Not angry. EMBARRASSED. And the whole Legislature should be embarrassed by them.

[NDSUstudent]

Are they running that big of deficits to where if they were closed it would actually benefit other schools in the state? Seems like the amount of money Mayville may lose a year might only be a drop in the bucket to NDSU and UND's budgets to where it's almost negligible.

It isn't about deficits, it is about how much they cost to operate and the fact that they are redundant. Do we really need a school in Mayville and Valley City? I think we could get by with just one and nobody notice one was gone expect the people who live in the town of the school that closed.

[coldspot]

It isn't about deficits, it is about how much they cost to operate and the fact that they are redundant. Do we really need a school in Mayville and Valley City? I think we could get by with just one and nobody notice one was gone expect the people who live in the town of the school that closed.

how much of an impact would closing either of those schools have on their respective towns? valley city would survive but what else is there in mayville?

[phpguru]

I'm pretty sure one of those smaller schools closing would allow UND to expand their medical center like they want to... and that's just for this year.

[tony]

how much of an impact would closing either of those schools have on their respective towns? valley city would survive but what else is there in mayville?

It'd have a huge negative impact on all those towns.

However, if the Legislature wants to actually get a iron grip on higher ed, they should at least know what they are talking about.

[ndsubison1]

The North Dakota University System and State Board of Higher Education as they currently exist are a farce.

1. There is no 'system'. There are 11 independent schools that work together when it is to their benefit and independently when it is not.

2. There is no leadership. Who has more power in Bismarck: Goetz, Bresciani, or Kelly? (The answer - it depends on if Goetz is in the room or not.)

3. The system is inefficient. Contrary to common knowledge, North Dakota devotes significant levels of funding to higher ed. This goes beyond maintaining institutions that should arguably be closed.

4. The system is a bottomless pit. The funding requests the SBOHE submits are ludicrous. 25% increases biennium after biennium. Equal capital funding request for Mayville State and NDSU.


So my question is: should the University System and SBOHE be dismantled?

yes and yes. abolish them

[NDSUstudent]

how much of an impact would closing either of those schools have on their respective towns? valley city would survive but what else is there in mayville?

I'm sure it would have a big impact, but should we be keeping schools open just so it doesn't have an economic impact on a town?

[Bison bison]

I'm sure it would have a big impact, but should we be keeping schools open just so it doesn't have an economic impact on a town?

we should never end any government program.


Right now the USPS is considering not filling the post master position in Palermo, ND. this would mean that the 25 residents of the town would have to drive over 8 miles to nearby Stanley if they want a PO Box (there will still be daily delivery).


the terrorists have won, my friends, the terrorists have won.

[tony]

I'm sure it would have a big impact, but should we be keeping schools open just so it doesn't have an economic impact on a town?

If that's what they want, then so be it, but they should be forthright about the costs.

[bisonmike2]

It'd have a huge negative impact on all those towns.

However, if the Legislature wants to actually get a iron grip on higher ed, they should at least know what they are talking about.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TwK3s2Eg87g/S0Y4KIYPeGI/AAAAAAAABsM/uctIqJaZH5M/s400/drago.jpg
If the town dies, it dies.

[Tatanka]

OK, fine. Don't close them. Let them go private, with some short-term financial assistance if necessary.

[TheBisonator]

The issue is that there are at least four schools that shouldn't exist anymore: Mayville, Lake Region, Valley City and Bottineau. I would also throw in Williston State, but I think with the oil boom there, I'd keep them for now. Maybe WSC can be the official 2-year school of Bakken Shale workers at some point in time. But I think with just taking away those four schools, a lot of problems would be solved, problems such as money that should be going to NDSU and UND instead going to fund programs and projects in Bottineau that might in the end not be of any worth to society.

And if you wanted to start the process, I think you would need to petition about 27,000 signatures (4 percent of the population of ND).

[mebisonII]

On one of the previous threads on this subject, someone here had a pretty well-though-out plan for rearranging the NDUS, including shutting down one or two schools, as well as re-focusing several schools to better serve their local regions and/or make them less redundant.

[NorthernBison]

The issue is that there are at least four schools that shouldn't exist anymore: Mayville, Lake Region, Valley City and Bottineau. I would also throw in Williston State, but I think with the oil boom there, I'd keep them for now. Maybe WSC can be the official 2-year school of Bakken Shale workers at some point in time. But I think with just taking away those four schools, a lot of problems would be solved, problems such as money that should be going to NDSU and UND instead going to fund programs and projects in Bottineau that might in the end not be of any worth to society.

And if you wanted to start the process, I think you would need to petition about 27,000 signatures (4 percent of the population of ND).

I'm wondering why you think LRSC in Devils Lake is unnecessary. It is basically a two year school with a strong focus on Technical programs. It also functions to feed students to the four year Universities in addition to partnering with both UND and Mayville on four year programs.

North Dakota is a rural state. Maybe you forgot that living in the big city. Not everybody has the ability to live in one of the four biggest cities in the state so they can work on degrees.

North Dakota is NOT going broke supporting the NDUS. As a matter of fact, ND has a gigantic surplus that is not totally due to oil. The wealth of this state does not come totally from Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck, and Minot. The idea that the rest of the state doesn't need access to Higher Education is shortsighted.

[Bison bison]

I'm wondering why you think LRSC in Devils Lake is unnecessary. It is basically a two year school with a strong focus on Technical programs. It also functions to feed students to the four year Universities in addition to partnering with both UND and Mayville on four year programs.

what a pile of horsesh#t.

that school was cannibalized by its previous administrator.

what technical programs do you speak of? welding - gone. diesel tech - gone. auto mechanics - a shell of its former self.

you know what their butt in seats ratio is (full time kids learning on-site)? it's five percent. you know what ndsu's is? 96%.

i don't know the exact figure, but they see 2-3k more per fte than NDSU does.

do you know who it's students really are? they are high schoolers taking dual credit and airmen 90 miles away.

that all said, it sounds like the new guy is good. the problem is that is no way to rebuild that school. the demographics of central north dakota don't support even a third rate community college.

[TbonZach]

The issue is that there are at least four schools that shouldn't exist anymore: Mayville, Lake Region, Valley City and Bottineau.

I'll agree with every one of those except Mayville. My brother is one of the top tech guys there and in this economy, the longer Mayville is open the longer he has a job.

[tony]

I kind of think that North Dakota could use some more two-year programs but the trend has been to make every two-year school a four-year school.

[NorthernBison]

what a pile of horsesh#t.

that school was cannibalized by its previous administrator.

what technical programs do you speak of? welding - gone. diesel tech - gone. auto mechanics - a shell of its former self.

you know what their butt in seats ratio is (full time kids learning on-site)? it's five percent. you know what ndsu's is? 96%.

i don't know the exact figure, but they see 2-3k more per fte than NDSU does.

do you know who it's students really are? they are high schoolers taking dual credit and airmen 90 miles away.

that all said, it sounds like the new guy is good. the problem is that is no way to rebuild that school. the demographics of central north dakota don't support even a third rate community college.

Much of what you just said is true. I do know their nursing program is the reason why some of our area hospitals and nursing homes have been able to fill positions. The wind tech program is new and nobody else saw a need to fill a void in that area.

You might want to examine part of what you just posted. I read a lot of pompous crap on here about how NDSU is underappreciated. Too many posters think it is beneficial to knock the other schools in the system and WAY too much of that comes from NDSU supporters.

Ever wonder why NDSU gets crapped on so often? Anybody that wants to be a pompous jackhole in suppport of NDSU and assert that other institutions don't deserve to exist just sets the cause back.

[tony]

Ever wonder why NDSU gets crapped on so often? Anybody that wants to be a pompous jackhole in suppport of NDSU and assert that other institutions don't deserve to exist just sets the cause back.

While NDSU does indeed get crapped on and while scumming other schools in the system is not going to win any friends, it is false to conclude that this is why NDSU gets crapped on.

NDSU gets crapped on because UND bobos control higher ed in the Legislature and they are masters of trading favors with legislators representing towns containing other schools in the system while playing on anti-Fargo parochialism (that, and legislators that know better, don't speak up.)

For example, they keep pounding on "NDSU is wasting money. NDSU is a bottomless pit. BLAH, BLAH, FREAKING BLAH!"

Well, explain how NDSU is wasting money when NDSU is getting less per student than any 4-year school in the system. I mean, if NDSU is wasting money, then what does that say about the other schools in the system? Also, there are only two schools in the system that actually have more kids on campus than ten years ago. One is NDSU and the other is almost certainly Bismarck State... the rest have record enrollments because of part-time telecommuting students. NDSU delivers, by far, the most bang for the buck of any investment North Dakota makes. Heck, if NDSU comes out with one new seed variety this year, it will probably deliver more to the state's economy than all the research done in the rest of the entire system.

[Tatanka]

While NDSU does indeed get crapped on and while scumming other schools in the system is not going to win any friends, it is false to conclude that this is why NDSU gets crapped on because of this.

NDSU gets crapped on because UND bobos control higher ed in the Legislature and they are masters of trading favors with legislators representing towns containing other schools in the system while playing on anti-Fargo parochialism (that, and legislators that know better, don't speak up.)

For example, they keep pounding on "NDSU is wasting money. NDSU is a bottomless pit. BLAH, BLAH, FREAKING BLAH!"

Well, explain how NDSU is wasting money when NDSU is getting less per student than any 4-year school in the system. I mean, if NDSU is wasting money, then what does that say about the other schools in the system? Also, there are only two schools in the system that actually have more kids on campus than ten years ago. One is NDSU and the other is almost certainly Bismarck State... the rest have record enrollments because of part-time telecommuting students. NDSU delivers, by far, the most bang for the buck of any investment North Dakota makes. Heck, if NDSU comes out with one new seed variety this year, it will probably deliver more to the state's economy than all the research done in the rest of the entire system.

T R U T H.

[Bison bison]

You might want to examine part of what you just posted. I read a lot of pompous crap on here about how NDSU is underappreciated. Too many posters think it is beneficial to knock the other schools in the system and WAY too much of that comes from NDSU supporters.



NDSU isn't underappreciated. It's misunderstood and maligned.

I'll gladly knock LRSC with facts, people are free to do the same to NDSU.

The problem is that most people on both sides don't know squat and most of what they do know is wrong.

People who do know things have been too quiet for too long.

F#$% being nice, these 'schools' are wasting my money.

[mebisonII]

This thread is a good example why no schools will be closed. Any time a specific school is mentioned, someone jumps up to say "No, not THAT school! That school is near where I grew up and its an important school!" 11 state schools for a population of ~600,000, with probably less than 100,000 people in the traditional college age-range is crazy.

No way that a constitutional amendment simply stating that A school could be closed would pass. All supporters of schools not in danger of being closed (probably only NDSU and UND) would band together and make sure that didn't happen.

The only way I could see it happening would be the extremely cut-throat move of publicly identifying one SPECIFIC school that was on the chopping block, and making it clear that if that school didn't get cut, either someone else would get in the cross-hairs or everyone would get reduced funding. And that would still be a brutal fight.

[mebisonII]

BTW, searching for population and demographic info led me to this presentation, out of the ND State Data Center:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/sdc/presentations/011911.pps

I haven't looked carefully at all of it, but what I did look through is pretty interesting. It would be interesting to see a version updated with 2010 Census info.

[NorthernBison]

NDSU isn't underappreciated. It's misunderstood and maligned.

I'll gladly knock LRSC with facts, people are free to do the same to NDSU.

The problem is that most people on both sides don't know squat and most of what they do know is wrong.

People who do know things have been too quiet for too long.

F#$% being nice, these 'schools' are wasting my money.

I don't think money spent on education is "wasted". If you're talking "bang for the buck" there's an argument. Big deal though. If we want to provide access to opportunities for the people of North Dakota, it won't be fully efficient in a rural state like we have.

There have been plenty of arguments about funding equity over the years. I've probably heard most of them. I have come to agree that NDSU does do more with less than others. I'm not unbiased though and I recognize that. It is interesting that all those arguments have not resulted in a clear consensus of how funding should be calculated and allocated. Meaning that there is still room for debate. Not everybody sees it the way we do. That's why Joe Chapman didn't suddenly get what he wanted.

Therein lies the problem for the future. Chapman took away our "moral High ground" on this issue by not playing by the rules. The people who control the system are locked and loaded against letting something like that happen again and Joe gave them the bullets.

You talk about wasting money? The city of Devils Lake provides no redeeming value to most of the state. Consequently, there is no reason why we should have spent the money we have to protect it. "If it floods and dies so be it." Let the lake expand and build roads around the water. Yet we waste money on dikes and raising roads at the expense of taxpayers around the country. The waste in this one instance is immeasurable.

[Bison bison]

I don't think money spent on education is "wasted". If you're talking "bang for the buck" there's an argument. Big deal though. If we want to provide access to opportunities for the people of North Dakota, it won't be fully efficient in a rural state like we have.


Access to what? Glorified high schools? That have facilities to seat thousands of students that sit EMPTY.



It is interesting that all those arguments have not resulted in a clear consensus of how funding should be calculated and allocated.

That's because of politics.

Development and application and performance measures isn't rocket science.

The truth is that no one wants to see that is costs $40,000 to educate someone with a two year degree who ends up taking the same dead end job they could have gotten straight out of high school, especially when 70% of those costs are picked up by the state. (Please note that I love tech schools that put out students with skills, I can't stand community colleges.)



Therein lies the problem for the future. Chapman took away our "moral High ground" on this issue by not playing by the rules.


Chapman had the nuts to call a spade a spade - most hated him for it. His demise was his ego and greed.

The rules and the current environment are set up to play against NDSU.

[Bison bison]

Here are some numbers to chew on.

The operating monies in the current appropriations budget. This doesn't count capital spending, where NDSU gets screwed even worse in my opinion (Valley City really needs a new $15 million math and science building for their 200 students taking courses in biology /sarcasm. what they need is a 500,000 remodeling job to build three labs.)

Oh, where to start.

I'll start with Bismarck State College. They will receive 30 million dollars in the next biennium. They will graduate over 1,700 students in that time. This turns out to the state paying $17,500 per graduate. I think that's a pretty good return. BSC gets good students and graduates people with a lot of different skill sets...

Now let's look at Dakota College Bottineau (you know NDSU-B, MiSU-B). They will receive 6.7 million dollars and graduate 150 students. That means we'll be subsiding their degrees to the tune of almost $45,000 each.

Now let's turn to my favorite whipping boy - Valley City. 26.4 million dollars to put out 177 graduates with bachelors degrees (which are not the same as associates). Over two years we can expect 350 graduates meaning we'll spend nearly $75,000 per degree. As many as 60 of those graduates are really NDSU elementary ed majors. That means we are spending $90 grand per student. And don't forget that $15 million science and math building they NEED!

Next let's do UND. We'll combine the school of medicine (I don't for the life me of understand the separation, sure it's unique, just like every college at a major university). UND graduates cost the state about $40,000. That's not bad. Considering these are engineering, lawyers, doctors, you name it.

Now let's look at lowly NDSU. It's a farm college you know. And it's Fargo. They'll graduate over 5,000 students in the next two years including engineers, teachers, business men and women, nurses, .... And they do it for $26,000 a head. That's pretty amazing. That is close to being tied for second lowest cost of education among all schools. Even though these graduates will have been in classrooms for at least twice as long as those at tech schools.

And then let's not forget the 'University System'. The state will pay the 'University System' $6,000 for each associates, bachelors, graduate and professional degree granted over the next two years. $6,000. We need to add this to the cost of degree for every institution.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/5413478938_c77bd725b2.jpg

yeah, northernbison, I think there is WASTE in the system



Also you asked for a solution.

Here it is.


Flat funding per institution

plus

Flat funding per credit hour

plus

Flat funding per graduate


For example.

We give LRSC $5,000,000 in flat funding. $100/credit and $500/graduate. It would be helpful if there was monitoring built into the system so schools don't cheat to avoid grade/degree inflation, but let's be honest here. Norman Eistein isn't going to major in Flower Shop Technology at Dakota College. The system is already set up to keep kids in the system regardless of if they belong there.

We also do some strategic work.

- We offer communities in schools that should be shut down: MaSU, VCSU, and DCB 5 times their annual budget to get their school off our sheet. Eg we write Mayville a check for $50 million bucks to turn MaSU into, I don't know, a Chinese language village (or whatever that bogus idea Burgum had for Fergus Falls).

- We rebuild entire campuses for LRSC and WSC. So we don't spend $2 million a year maintaining facilities that will never be used. Instead we spend $50 million on new facilities.

[lakesbison]

Every prick in the legislature should have this taped to their seat at capitol. Unreal

[NorthernBison]

[img]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/5413478938_c77bd725b2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56943922@N08/5413478938/) table (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56943922@N08/5413478938/)

There's a number of ways to look at that table you know. I don't see any BS or BA degrees on there listed as LRSC. Yet, I personally know two people who got education degrees from Mayville that never set foot on Mayville's campus. They only went to Lake Region.

I know a number of people who got education degrees from Valley city who took all their classes at NDSU.

How does all that factor into the table?

Oh Boo Hoo, everybody is against NDSU and the Legislature is made up of UND cronies. Really? Does everybody who suppports NDSU whine so much? I sure don't. But, it sure seems like a lot of people here are big crybabies that want to blame everybody else.

NDSU is growing rapidly. I don't think lack of funding is a huge issue. North Dakota has a strong track record of supporting education even in the rural areas. Like it should. We also have the ability to do this because the finances of the state are good and have been even before the oil boom. If we were as mismanaged as Minnesota, there would be schools shut down. I don't see that happening anytime soon in North Dakota.

[NorthernBison]

Every prick in the legislature should have this taped to their seat at capitol. Unreal

You have bigger things to worry about.

Minnesota is a dumpster fire. You have no right to point fingers at ND.

[Tatanka]

There's a number of ways to look at that table you know. I don't see any BS or BA degrees on there listed as LRSC. Yet, I personally know two people who got education degrees from Mayville that never set foot on Mayville's campus. They only went to Lake Region.

I know a number of people who got education degrees from Valley city who took all their classes at NDSU.

How does all that factor into the table?


On the surface it would appear as if your examples inflate the graduation numbers at those two campuses, making the actual cost per graduating student at those campuses even higher.

There may be some intra-system payments occurring which we don't see in the table. Either way, what's the point of offering a degree at a college if the student takes all their classes at another campus? Why not relocate the program?

Honestly i'm not approaching this as an NDSU supporter (the fact that NDSU is sucking hind teat here are well documented and not in dispute). I'm approaching this as a taxpayer and a businessperson in the state of North Dakota. It doesn't make financial sense. Period.

[Bison bison]

How does all that factor into the table?
.

It doesn't obviously.

This table takes THE performance measure - program completion and maps it into the primary input CASH MONEY.






NDSU is growing rapidly. I don't think lack of funding is a huge issue.

Then you obviously don't have a clue.

I'm not crying about it. I'm b#tching and in my opinion there's a big difference.

This data doesn't make me sad - IT PISSES ME OFF.

[NorthernBison]

On the surface it would appear as if your examples inflate the graduation numbers at those two campuses, making the actual cost per graduating student at those campuses even higher.

There may be some intra-system payments occurring which we don't see in the table. Either way, what's the point of offering a degree at a college if the student takes all their classes at another campus? Why not relocate the program?

Honestly i'm not approaching this as an NDSU supporter (the fact that NDSU is sucking hind teat here are well documented and not in dispute). I'm approaching this as a taxpayer and a businessperson in the state of North Dakota. It doesn't make financial sense. Period.

I'll give you a good example of why Universities cooperate with the colleges. Imagine trying to staff a hospital in Rolla with Nurses. There are almost zero 22 year old graduates of Nursing in Grand Forks who are dying to move to Rolla. The best source of potential new nurses is people living right in that area. You have to train them but most of your candidates won't have the option of physically moving to Grand Forks for two to four years. Having the option of commuting to DL to get the degree makes it workable. Everybody wins.

Another thing that happens often is a student (often female but not always) gets married three years into a four year degree. The spouse gets a job in a semi-rural area and they move. How does the other spouse ever finish that degree? Right now, we have the facilites spread throughout the state to accomplish much of this.

I expect that technology will eventually allow us to do all this without brick and mortar. It hasn't yet. Partly political. Somewhat due to the system not adapting.

North Dakota is not alone in this. Take a look at the Minnesota system some time. See their web of community and technical colleges and Universities. Their problem is that the State budget is in no shape to fund all the things they are doing.

I swear to god that poeple who live in the larger cities in ND have no idea what it is like in the rural areas. (not really aiming that at you there Tatanka)

[NorthernBison]

Then you obviously don't have a clue.

I'm not crying about it. I'm b#tching and in my opinion there's a big difference.

This data doesn't make me sad - IT PISSES ME OFF.

Back to the original point you made in your first post, I'm not sure you have any reason for calling anybody clueless.

FYI, eliminating the SBoHE and letting the individual Institutions duke it out in the Legislature would almost certainly make it WORSE for NDSU.

[Bison bison]

I'll give you a good example of why Universities cooperate with the colleges. Imagine trying to staff a hospital in Rolla with Nurses. There are almost zero 22 year old graduates of Nursing in Grand Forks who are dying to move to Rolla. The best source of potential new nurses is people living right in that area. You have to train them but most of your candidates won't have the option of physically moving to Grand Forks for two to four years. Having the option of commuting to DL to get the degree makes it workable. Everybody wins.



Better yet. How about having a program that brings the educators to the town!

Oh, wait. We do that with Dakota Nursing program.


I swear to god that poeple who live in the larger cities in ND have no idea what it is like in the rural areas. (not really aiming that at you there Tatanka)

And people in small towns don't understand that just because Fargo is just a little larger dot on the map it actually has 100x as many people as their sh#t burg and 400x the economic activity.

You also miss the point that many of the people who live in Fargo grew up in small towns and still maintain strong links to them.

For example, I'm from Devils Lake.

[Tatanka]

I'll give you a good example of why Universities cooperate with the colleges. Imagine trying to staff a hospital in Rolla with Nurses. There are almost zero 22 year old graduates of Nursing in Grand Forks who are dying to move to Rolla. The best source of potential new nurses is people living right in that area. You have to train them but most of your candidates won't have the option of physically moving to Grand Forks for two to four years. Having the option of commuting to DL to get the degree makes it workable. Everybody wins.

Another thing that happens often is a student (often female but not always) gets married three years into a four year degree. The spouse gets a job in a semi-rural area and they move. How does the other spouse ever finish that degree? Right now, we have the facilites spread throughout the state to accomplish much of this.

I expect that technology will eventually allow us to do all this without brick and mortar. It hasn't yet. Partly political. Somewhat due to the system not adapting.

North Dakota is not alone in this. Take a look at the Minnesota system some time. See their web of community and technical colleges and Universities. Their problem is that the State budget is in no shape to fund all the things they are doing.

I swear to god that poeple who live in the larger cities in ND have no idea what it is like in the rural areas. (not really aiming that at you there Tatanka)

Not a problem. This isn't a personal argument; I think it's a good debate of opinion.

If the smaller colleges are naturally moving towards becoming satellite offices for the larger schools, so be it. I would argue that the enormous administrative overhead at those schools can be cut accordingly.

And for VCSU and MaSU, is anyone really trying to argue that someone can commute to those schools but not to GF / Fargo?

This is clearly an emotional debate, and would turn into a full blown circus if ever diligently pursued. But the financial facts are what they are. Just doesn't make sense to me why it persists.

[Bison bison]

Back to the original point you made in your first post, I'm not sure you have any reason for calling anybody clueless.

FYI, eliminating the SBoHE and letting the individual Institutions duke it out in the Legislature would almost certainly make it WORSE for NDSU.

Dude, I phrased the question that way to spur discussion.

It's a hell of a lot more intriguing than asking what realistic adjustments would you make to North Dakota's higher education system.

[CAS4127]

Not a problem. This isn't a personal argument; I think it's a good debate of opinion.

If the smaller colleges are naturally moving towards becoming satellite offices for the larger schools, so be it. I would argue that the enormous administrative overhead at those schools can be cut accordingly.

And for VCSU and MaSU, is anyone really trying to argue that someone can commute to those schools but not to GF / Fargo?

This is clearly an emotional debate, and would turn into a full blown circus if ever diligently pursued. But the financial facts are what they are. Just doesn't make sense to me why it persists.

NDSU-Mayville, NDSU-Valley City, etc. = eliminate highly paid administrators and many staff members and possibly profs = save money.

[Bison bison]

NDSU-Mayville, NDSU-Valley City, etc. = eliminate highly paid administrators and many staff members and possibly profs = save money.

I'm sure the legislature would love this idea!

[tony]

Hey NorthernBison, I have no problem with programs that help rural areas but they all seem to ignore the underlying demographic problem. YOu could dump $1 billion into a med school but that amounts to ignoring the illness to treat the symptoms. In fact, the legislature seems to be determined to make the underlying illness, a demographic problem, worse by rolling back progress in getting out-of-state kids into the state while simultaneously rewarding schoools that are mostly interested in doing things like teaching Norwegian to people who never come within 1000 miles of North Dakota because it's good PR and it gets them a higher head count.

It bugs me that these legislators complain about how much higher ed costs and use NDSU as their whipping boy when NDSU is the best bang for the buck there is (for four-year degrees at least.) Just one example, UND is pretty proud of their research dollars but it takes 50% more to produce those research dollars than it does at NDSU.

All I ask is that the Legislature get the real numbers out there and judge the benefits on their merits rather then engaging in mendacious grandstanding.

[CAS4127]

I'm sure the legislature would love this idea!

As a further cost-saving measure, we could give them our used athletic equipment--excluding jockstraps and whatever they call what the women wear!! TAB and Gabe have an in on the jockstraps in case anyone was going to otherwise volunteer to accept same, and Lakes is in on the womens' "whatever"!:D

[NorthernBison]

Dude, I phrased the question that way to spur discussion.

It's a hell of a lot more intriguing than asking what realistic adjustments would you make to North Dakota's higher education system.

I think the system is evolving. Nothing happens over night.

Certainly, there are big savings to be made in Administrative Overhead costs and that might need to be accomplished from Bismarck. The system might be slow to go there.

My frustration with the comments slamming rural ND is that most of the people spouting off fail to understand that we need a rural infrastructure to support what this state does best (Agriculture). Education is part of that infrastructure. I noticed that you have never brought Extension into the discussion. Huge budget and lots of money spent but no degrees issued. (Plenty of value delivered though). Goes to show that you can't measure everything by degrees.

I don't think it is a waste to provide educational opportunities for people in Rolla, Langdon, Perth, Bisbee, Wolford, Rugby, Maddock, etc. Our well educated populace is an advantage for North Dakota.

[Tatanka]

My frustration with the comments slamming rural ND is that most of the people spouting off fail to understand that we need a rural infrastructure to support what this state does best (Agriculture). Education is part of that infrastructure. I noticed that you have never brought Extension into the discussion. Huge budget and lots of money spent but no degrees issued. (Plenty of value delivered though). Goes to show that you can't measure everything by degrees.

I don't think it is a waste to provide educational opportunities for people in Rolla, Langdon, Perth, Bisbee, Wolford, Rugby, Maddock, etc. Our well educated populace is an advantage for North Dakota.

There's a huge difference between slamming rural North Dakota (which is not at all what I'm trying to do) and pointing out inefficiencies and recommending a possible solution. Please don't confuse the two.

And educational opportunities will still exist for the good folks in Bisbee even if the state makes the right financial decision.

[Bison bison]

I think the system is evolving. Nothing happens over night.

Certainly, there are big savings to be made in Administrative Overhead costs and that might need to be accomplished from Bismarck. The system might be slow to go there.

My frustration with the comments slamming rural ND is that most of the people spouting off fail to understand that we need a rural infrastructure to support what this state does best (Agriculture). Education is part of that infrastructure. I noticed that you have never brought Extension into the discussion. Huge budget and lots of money spent but no degrees issued. (Plenty of value delivered though). Goes to show that you can't measure everything by degrees.

I don't think it is a waste to provide educational opportunities for people in Rolla, Langdon, Perth, Bisbee, Wolford, Rugby, Maddock, etc. Our well educated populace is an advantage for North Dakota.

1. The changes that are necessary won't come from evolution in my opinion. We need a wholesale evaluation and reconstruction of the system.

2. Centralizing things in Bismarck might work for some programs. However, a lack of leadership from Bismarck and parochialism/turfism which is our real problem know won't let that happen.

3. I agree with the role that education plays in economic vitality. I also don't think that rural programs should be considered on an even playing field with urban ones. The needs and the environment are different. What I cannot stand is this ongoing charade in higher education where a number of institutions pretend to be things that they are not and never can be - and spend about $1,000 of my money each year to do.

4. Extension has nothing to do with this conversion. Like you said they provide value, but their mission is unique from tradition education.

5. I agree with you on providing educational opportunities to all of those places, except for Maddock. Those toothless hillbillies have no propensity for learnin.

[CAS4127]

I think the system is evolving. Nothing happens over night.

Certainly, there are big savings to be made in Administrative Overhead costs and that might need to be accomplished from Bismarck. The system might be slow to go there.

My frustration with the comments slamming rural ND is that most of the people spouting off fail to understand that we need a rural infrastructure to support what this state does best (Agriculture). Education is part of that infrastructure. I noticed that you have never brought Extension into the discussion. Huge budget and lots of money spent but no degrees issued. (Plenty of value delivered though). Goes to show that you can't measure everything by degrees.

I don't think it is a waste to provide educational opportunities for people in Rolla, Langdon, Perth, Bisbee, Wolford, Rugby, Maddock, etc. Our well educated populace is an advantage for North Dakota.

Agents typically must have some sort of agricultural education base, and they have to get it somewhere. Where better than MooU!!??:D

[tony]

And educational opportunities will still exist for the good folks in Bisbee even if the state makes the right financial decision.

BISBEE! Heh, that's where Ma went to high school. All this time, I thought it was just where we buried relatives. And she was born in Rolla! So that's like two towns from Elfdom history in one day!!! If somebody had mentioned Rolette, Mylo, and the Old Broadway sign that you pass on the way to Cando, I'd begin to think that one of my good cousins was on the board! (except they'd be PMing me to tell me to stop being a jackass - in a nice way, of course.)

Sorry, anyway, I do know the area fairly well, NorthernBison. :)

[NorthernBison]

1. The changes that are necessary won't come from evolution in my opinion. We need a wholesale evaluation and reconstruction of the system.

2. Centralizing things in Bismarck might work for some programs. However, a lack of leadership from Bismarck and parochialism/turfism which is our real problem know won't let that happen.

3. I agree with the role that education plays in economic vitality. I also don't think that rural programs should be considered on an even playing field with urban ones. The needs and the environment are different. What I cannot stand is this ongoing charade in higher education where a number of institutions pretend to be things that they are not and never can be - and spend about $1,000 of my money each year to do.

4. Extension has nothing to do with this conversion. Like you said they provide value, but their mission is unique from tradition education.

5. I agree with you on providing educational opportunities to all of those places, except for Maddock. Those toothless hillbillies have no propensity for learnin.

Now I know we know each other based on the Maddock comment. The real hillbillies I knew in college came from Perth and Bisbee.

What I meant by evolution is that we are already seeing the smaller colleges starting to function as branches of the larger institutions rather than trying to offer their own four year degree programs. The ideal result would be an eventual elimination of the Aministrative part of those small schools and let that be done by the larger schools (even the two year programs). That step will never happen through evolution and is the reason I referenced action from Bismarck to accomplish that.

Much of what we are talking about could eventually be done without "Brick and Mortar" but, since we already have the facilities in place, I don't really see that happening. I would like to see the SBoHE and Legislature take a harder line on NEW building on many of the smaller campuses.

I brought up Extension because you know that if somebody from any other school (cough, UND, cough) wanted to skew the discussion by adding those numbers to your table they could. Actually they have tried before and I agree it is a different animal.

[tony]

Now I know we know each other based on the Maddock comment. The real hillbillies I knew in college came from Perth and Bisbee.

I brought up Extension because you know that if somebody from any other school (cough, UND, cough) wanted to skew the discussion by adding those numbers to your table they could. Actually they have tried before and I agree it is a different animal.

You realize, of course, that the bolded stuff means war. :)

Also, about the last paragraph, I'm almost certain that NDSU's budget does include those numbers... but if I'm wrong, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

Lot of north country guys on the board - think Izzy is from thereabouts too.

[CAS4127]

You realize, of course, that the bolded stuff means war. :)
Also, about the last paragraph, I'm almost certain that NDSU's budget does include those numbers... but if I'm wrong, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

Lot of north country guys on the board - think Izzy is from thereabouts too.

Time for a group hug??!! http://www.indianmotorcyclecommunity.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/Feet-Up[1].gif

[Bison bison]

Also, about the last paragraph, I'm almost certain that NDSU's budget does include those numbers... but if I'm wrong, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.


separate budget. separate bill.

they definitely do belong separate. NDSU education mission is funded as part of the higher ed appropriation.

extension and ag research are together.

[tony]

separate budget. separate bill.

they definitely do belong separate. NDSU education mission is funded as part of the higher ed appropriation.

extension and ag research are together.

Cool. Do you have a link to the budgets? It'd be a handy reference.

[Tatanka]

Now I know we know each other based on the Maddock comment. The real hillbillies I knew in college came from Perth and Bisbee.

What I meant by evolution is that we are already seeing the smaller colleges starting to function as branches of the larger institutions rather than trying to offer their own four year degree programs. The ideal result would be an eventual elimination of the Aministrative part of those small schools and let that be done by the larger schools (even the two year programs). That step will never happen through evolution and is the reason I referenced action from Bismarck to accomplish that.

Much of what we are talking about could eventually be done without "Brick and Mortar" but, since we already have the facilities in place, I don't really see that happening. I would like to see the SBoHE and Legislature take a harder line on NEW building on many of the smaller campuses.


Now we're talking.

[BadlandsBison]

BISBEE! Heh, that's where Ma went to high school. All this time, I thought it was just where we buried relatives. And she was born in Rolla! So that's like two towns from Elfdom history in one day!!! If somebody had mentioned Rolette, Mylo, and the Old Broadway sign that you pass on the way to Cando, I'd begin to think that one of my good cousins was on the board! (except they'd be PMing me to tell me to stop being a jackass - in a nice way, of course.)

Sorry, anyway, I do know the area fairly well, NorthernBison. :)

Hey, I had some close relatives graduate from Bisbee. Is the High School still open?

[Bison bison]

Cool. Do you have a link to the budgets? It'd be a handy reference.

only if you make me and lakes moderators.

don't click on these unless you agree...



Education appropriation bill HB1003

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/documents/11-8155-01000.pdf

Extension, research, UGPTI bill HB 2010

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/documents/11-8161-01000.pdf

[Bison bison]

Hey, I had some close relatives graduate from Bisbee. Is the High School still open?

no. the school closed in the past five years iirc.


after closing a group of people in hoods (apparently people from the community) showed up covered in robes and burned the place to the ground. it was quite the story.

[CAS4127]

no. the school closed in the past five years iirc.


after closing a group of people in hoods (apparently people from the community) showed up covered in robes and burned the place to the ground. it was quite the story.

I heard they were too "bisbee" to keep it open!

[Tatanka]

I heard they were too "bisbee" to keep it open!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn115/Beaverman88/charles-barkley-savage-thumbcopy.jpg

[tony]

no. the school closed in the past five years iirc.


after closing a group of people in hoods (apparently people from the community) showed up covered in robes and burned the place to the ground. it was quite the story.

Robes and hoods? Are you cereal?

DANG KLANSMEN! Maybe that explains why Ma got booted out of school for dying her hair green on St. Paddy's Day back in the 1950s. :)

[ndsubison1]

ndsu can be proof that you dont need a sh!t load of funding in education to be successful. a lot of times the "underfunded" schools perform a lot better than the "well-funded" schools. ndsu is a good example of that.

[Bison bison]

exactly.

i'd be a okay with all the other schools seeing a 35% reduction in funding and getting to send $350 less to Bismarck.

Instead they're asking for $200 more only $50 of which will go to NDSU, despite the fact we are about 40% of the systems output.

ndsu isn't even keeping up.

[tony]

no. the school closed in the past five years iirc.


after closing a group of people in hoods (apparently people from the community) showed up covered in robes and burned the place to the ground. it was quite the story.

I talked to somebody up in Rolette County today and he said Bisbee's school is still standing and that they wanted to rent it to a business if possible.

Is this some sort of Rolette-inside-joke deal that I'm missing? Shouldn't do stuff like that to me because I'm about the most gullible person around. Have some pity!

[CAS4127]

I talked to somebody up in Rolette County today and he said Bisbee's school is still standing and that they wanted to rent it to a business if possible.

Is this some sort of Rolette-inside-joke deal that I'm missing? Shouldn't do stuff like that to me because I'm about the most gullible person around. Have some pity!

You should change your username to that ^, which in turn would make even more easy to give you shit--well deserved shit too!!

[tony]

only if you make me and lakes moderators.

don't click on these unless you agree...



Education appropriation bill HB1003

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/documents/11-8155-01000.pdf

Extension, research, UGPTI bill HB 2010

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/documents/11-8161-01000.pdf

Heh, now I don't dare click the links.

[Bison bison]

I happen to know that you have already followed the links-

THUS BEGINS THE REIGN OF TERROR!!!!!!

[IzzyFlexion]

Hey, I had some close relatives graduate from Bisbee. Is the High School still open?

Anyone else remember the Steve Landesberg (from the Barney Miller Show) telephone company commercial where he mentions Bisbee, North Dakota?
Incidently, Landesberg passed away just last month.

http://www.celebdirtylaundry.com/wp-content/uploads/Steve-Landesberg-RIP.jpg

[IzzyFlexion]

You realize, of course, that the bolded stuff means war. :)

Also, about the last paragraph, I'm almost certain that NDSU's budget does include those numbers... but if I'm wrong, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

Lot of north country guys on the board - think Izzy is from thereabouts too.

Yes I is.
got my edumacation from the late great Border Central High School (Sarles-Calvin Co-Op). Had a little trouble with my gazintas, but graduated nonetheless.

[Herd80]

Yes I is.
got my edumacation from the late great Border Central High School (Sarles-Calvin Co-Op). Had a little trouble with my gazintas, but graduated nonetheless.

We'll need to figure out who is from the DL, Rolla, Langdon triangle sometime...could be interesting. Guesswork says we probably played some ball way (and I mean really way) back sometime.

[JSUBison]

We'll need to figure out who is from the DL, Rolla, Langdon triangle sometime...could be interesting. Guesswork says we probably played some ball way (and I mean really way) back sometime.

I'm in: grew up near Maza. :cool:

[Bison bison]

wow. maza.

nothing nut two empty buildings and an anyhydrous tank there now.


this discussion of common bounds brings up an idea i had a few years ago. we've all got bison flags we fly during tailgating. it would be cool to have other signs of shared community.

i was thinking of running pennants on the pole or along side the tent with information about people in our group

ie hometowns, graduation years, fraternal affiliations, whatever


For me this could be Devils Lake, 2001, Large Package Club, etc.

Then people who wander would have another opportunity to strike up a conversation or to skip a group. People from the Lake Region could drop by have a bite to eat, see if we share a common bond, etc.


Anyone from the Durum Triangle is more than welcome to beer and grub with our group.

[Herd]

My complaint isn't with the system. Having a SBOHE is correct and tnecessary IMO. However, the SBoHE's ability to be effective and make tough decsions is the problem.

[Hammerhead]

100 years ago, nearly 90% of NoDak's population was rural and now it is much less than half. My dad always joked that he was 5th in his class in 1954. Of course there were only 5 seniors that year in Oriska.

I went with my uncle to a homecoming game at Valley City once and it did seem more like a high school than a college. Then again, maybe it isn't such a bad thing for students who are afraid of attending a larger school like NDSU or UND.


BTW, searching for population and demographic info led me to this presentation, out of the ND State Data Center:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/sdc/presentations/011911.pps

I haven't looked carefully at all of it, but what I did look through is pretty interesting. It would be interesting to see a version updated with 2010 Census info.

[NorthernBison]

Yes I is.
got my edumacation from the late great Border Central High School (Sarles-Calvin Co-Op). Had a little trouble with my gazintas, but graduated nonetheless.

Funniest story I have about Border Central is regarding a kid that came from there who attended the USMA and played football. This was within the last 10 years too. I won't print his name.

As a Senior, he was a key lineman for Army. Watching a game on ABC one Saturday afternoon, the announcer commented about him and pointed out that he was the Class Valedictorian of his HS graduating class. He made the statement that he was not only a good football player but he was smart too.

I seriously wonder if the announcer had any idea that the graduating class had THREE students in it. Don't get me wrong, the kid was smart but it was still funny.

[Bison bison]

Another funny story about Border Central.

I went to NDSU with two of their graduates. Both really bright kids (I think they both had 30+ on their ACTs).

One graduated first in the class, the other graduated second.

With only a handful of grads, the second student was not in the top 20% of the class and was defacto ruled out of many scholarships.

[mebisonII]

Another funny story about Border Central.

I went to NDSU with two of their graduates. Both really bright kids (I think they both had 30+ on their ACTs).

One graduated first in the class, the other graduated second.

With only a handful of grads, the second student was not in the top 20% of the class and was defacto ruled out of many scholarships.

I had about the same thing happen to me. There was one smallish scholarship (can't remember what it was, maybe free books for the first year?) that was automatic for anyone in the top 10% of their HS class. I was #2 of 19. (10.5% for those who don't like math)

[IzzyFlexion]

Please bear with me for one more Border Central tidbit.
During it's final year of operation, Border Central (including the communities of Sarles, Calvin, and Hannah) had a K-12 entrollment of 25 students. After closing, a portion of these students had to go to Rock Lake.
Rock Lake HS will close at the end of this school year forcing the remaining kids in this area to go to either Munich or Rolla. Lastly, it sounds like Munich HS may not survive much longer either. Sad situation for these families.

[Bison bison]

Munich has about 60 kids. They'll be down to less than 40 in five years.

[NDSU_grad]

Munich has about 60 kids. They'll be down to less than 40 in five years.

What's crazy about that area is it's isolation. If Munich and Starkweather combine and the high school is in Starkweather there will not be a school between the Canadian border and Starkweather. That must be about 40 miles. With Rock Lake closing there are no high schools between Rolla and Langdon, a distance of about 55 miles.

My wife's from Munich and I tease her about that all the time, and I grew up in Carpio.

[Bison bison]

More fun data.

FTEs by school.

Compare the number of FTE-employees, students, graduates, and certification years.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5431267196_3ca4517643.jpg


Certification years is a metric I created to measure output. A certificate or diploma count as 1 certification year, an associates degree 2, a bachelors 4, a masters 2, a professional degree 3, a phd 4.


It's pretty easy to see where we get the biggest bang for the buck - BSC for two year schools, Dickinson State for 4 year, and NDSU for research schools.

NDSCS, Dakota College Bottineau, and Valley City are definite laggards.

[Tatanka]

More fun data.

FTEs by school.

Compare the number of FTE-employees, students, graduates, and certification years.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5431267196_3ca4517643.jpg


Certification years is a metric I created to measure output. A certificate or diploma count as 1 certification year, an associates degree 2, a bachelors 4, a masters 2, a professional degree 3, a phd 4.


It's pretty easy to see where we get the biggest bang for the buck - BSC for two year schools, Dickinson State for 4 year, and NDSU for research schools.

NDSCS, Dakota College Bottineau, and Valley City are definite laggards.

Buthockey, and this man's 'stache is a fractal.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqb61zIei81qz5njko1_500.jpg

Your argument is therefore invalid.