2011 Flood

[tony]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/305371/

Better than a 1 in 5 chance of being a record flood.

[TheBisonator]

I understand the urgent need to build a diversion in FM, and nobody's arguing that. But I find it perplexing that it seems like almost every third year we're expecting a record flood, when before 1997 a city-threatening flood seemed to happen not even once in a generation. Is FM getting waaaay more snow than average the past 10 years?? Could this be a sign of global climate change (I find the "warming" term ludicrous, since climate change effects more places in ways that are non-warming)?? Is this just something the region will have to deal with often now, that is 100+ inches of snow every winter??

I mean, I remember a few years ago, I remember the exact date. It was May 10, and the semester just ended. I looked out my apartment window and I saw SNOW. I remember the one April from a couple years ago where we had like 4 feet of snow that month. It was eerie. Is the climate in the region just changing??

(As I type this it's 37 degrees where I am, didn't even need to bring a jacket to school)

[tony]

It's probably the same reason Devils Lake is so high - lots and lots of precipitation, year after year after year.

[roadwarrior]

This area is definitely in a wet weather pattern. This isn't the first time this has happened, just the first we have been around to witness.

[TheBisonator]

It's probably the same reason Devils Lake is so high - lots and lots of precipitation, year after year after year.

Is there a way we can build a big hose connecting Devils lake to the Aral Sea and have a water transfer?? Would solve both place's problems. :D

[coldspot]

wasn't there something in the news a while ago about the ground in the lake agassiz basin rising back to its pre-glacial levels? anybody with a geology/hydrology background got anything in depth on that?

[lakesbison]

ah, hello, every house in southwest fargo (and the up center) is sitting in a freaking SLOUGH. this combined with every farmer from ortonville to breckenridge to wolverton levelling off their land to get the water off them quicker IS WHY.

its not rocket science people!

[tony]

ah, hello, every house in southwest fargo (and the up center) is sitting in a freaking SLOUGH. this combined with every farmer from ortonville to breckenridge to wolverton levelling off their land to get the water off them quicker IS WHY.

its not rocket science people!

Maybe you should stick to stuff you know about.

[CAS4127]

I understand the urgent need to build a diversion in FM, and nobody's arguing that. But I find it perplexing that it seems like almost every third year we're expecting a record flood, when before 1997 a city-threatening flood seemed to happen not even once in a generation. Is FM getting waaaay more snow than average the past 10 years?? Could this be a sign of global climate change (I find the "warming" term ludicrous, since climate change effects more places in ways that are non-warming)?? Is this just something the region will have to deal with often now, that is 100+ inches of snow every winter??

I mean, I remember a few years ago, I remember the exact date. It was May 10, and the semester just ended. I looked out my apartment window and I saw SNOW. I remember the one April from a couple years ago where we had like 4 feet of snow that month. It was eerie. Is the climate in the region just changing??

(As I type this it's 37 degrees where I am, didn't even need to bring a jacket to school)

We have had many years of extensive snowfall with no flooding. What we see now is extensive snowfall AND extensive farmland drainage. Have you guys been out in the country in the last 5 years and looked around. There are "legal drains" used to carry water from the fields to the Red, and many of those "drains" are damn near as big as the Sheyenne River diversion around Horace/West Fargo. You can't tell me those drains don't have a major impact on Red River flooding--huge volumes of water getting to the Red in way less time than ever before, and the drains continue to be built and/or deepened and widened--they call it "maintenance". Ya, right.

[bisonaudit]

wasn't there something in the news a while ago about the ground in the lake agassiz basin rising back to its pre-glacial levels? anybody with a geology/hydrology background got anything in depth on that?

Not an expert but my understanding is that unlike Great Britian where the highlands continue to get higher and London continues to sink, The Red River Valley isn't being effected by post-glacial rebound.

[aces1180]

Maybe you should stick to stuff you know about.

If you find something, can you point it out to all of us?

[MNLonghorn10]

nws sucks ass.


they can't get the crest right 2 days ahead, what makes you think they'll be right 3 months ahead.

and I've grown accustomed to a 'major' flood in fargo every year. Not like 2 yrs ago..but enoug that lindenwood gets flooded out. Other than that seems to be the same yet I read a lot of panic that major is always gonna be 09 or 97 when it's normally not..nws should update their models

[tony]

Not an expert but my understanding is that unlike Great Britian where the highlands continue to get higher and London continues to sink, The Red River Valley isn't being effected by post-glacial rebound.

Actually it is. The NY Times did a great piece on the Red River Valley once and they described the slope of the RRV by saying as a 20' sheet of plywood with a penny stuck under one end (or something.) It mentioned that the northern end of the valley was still rising because of this. Don't think it affects Fargo.

I bet the diversion at Wapheton-Breckinridge does though.

https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/ndnotes/Rebound/Glacial%20Rebound.htm

[CAS4127]

Actually it is. The NY Times did a great piece on the Red River Valley once and they described the slope of the RRV by saying as a 20' sheet of plywood with a penny stuck under one end (or something.) It mentioned that the northern end of the valley was still rising. Don't think it affects Fargo.

I bet the diversion at Wapheton-Breckinridge does though.

I think they were referring to the grade or slope of the land, which is very gradual, and, on the ND side, is west-to-east and North.

[tony]

I think they were referring to the grade or slope of the land, which is very gradual, and, on the ND side, is west-to-east and North.

Yeah, I know they were talking about the north-south slope - only included it because I love the visual. In fact, they might have said it was sheet of paper stuck under one end (if I find the article, I'll post a link.)

However, the article went on to say that the north end of the valley was still rebounding from where the weight of the glacier had compressed the earth's crust.

[lakesbison]

tony, obviously if lakesbison tells you the sun rises in the east, you'd say I was wrong.

are you seriously telling me that southwest fargo WASNT a slough? because I remember my father and uncle telling me about hunting ducks in the water out there. and I have land in breckenridge, they even have underground drainage all along hwy 210 to push the water into the ditches.

cmon man.... i know your not my biggest fan, but geesh, call off your dogs,

[CAS4127]

Yeah, I know they were talking about the north-south slope - only included it because I love the visual.

However, the article went on to say that the north end of the valley was still rebounding from where the weight of the glacier had compressed the earth's crust.

So the Red is going to start flowing south when???:hide: :hide: Now THAT would be the flood of the century, or of historical proportions for that matter.

[duluthbison]

That sounds about right, I've also heard that the slope from fargo to grand forks is equivalent to an 8 foot sheet of plywood with a sheet of paper under one end. I think the valley only rises an inch or so from south to north.

The really interesting thing is that while the northern end is rising, the southern portion of the valley is not. Slowly but surely Lake Aggasiz is reforming.

[HandoEX]

ah, hello, every house in southwest fargo (and the up center) is sitting in a freaking SLOUGH. this combined with every farmer from ortonville to breckenridge to wolverton levelling off their land to get the water off them quicker IS WHY.

its not rocket science people!
A former slough and levelling land has caused record precipitation in the Red River valley, huh? Those two factors account for such a small portion of the laundry list of problems that it's not even worth mentioning when talking about the last few floods we've had.

[Bison bison]

FYI to People of Fargo: if you ever want a diversion, you'll need to lose a flood fight.

[HandoEX]

FYI to People of Fargo: if you ever want a diversion, you'll need to lose a flood fight.

Couldn't have been said any better!

[unbison]

Maybe you should stick to stuff you know about.

There is a lot of truth in what he has said here Tony .......I work for a municipal contractor and have seen all the fill hauled in to build houses in the south end of town! As far as farmers fields draining faster this is very true .....sorry farmers but you guys couldn't cut a ditch that drains without lasers or gps to save your life .......but I give you kudos for using the technology available...... The speed the water drains to the river obviously has a impact on flooding:banghead:

[CAS4127]

Here you go.
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/fargo_geology/whyflood.htm

[unbison]

FYI to People of Fargo: if you ever want a diversion, you'll need to lose a flood fight.

I'm sure I'll be out working around the clock for days at a time I gonna be mad if we lose I play to win

[tony]

A former slough and levelling land has caused record precipitation in the Red River valley, huh? Those two factors account for such a small portion of the laundry list of problems that it's not even worth mentioning when talking about the last few floods we've had.

Yeah, it's patently ridiculous to say that building in south Fargo causes record floods. <=== read this Lakesbison and think about it: Show me the connection to building in south Fargo or Oxbow or whereever to the river reaching 40' in Fargo.

Usually the ground can soak up water and usually the rivers are barely running at all in the fall. Nowadays, they are running at flood stage almost all year round... how can that be farmers draining their land? If they were actually moving water just right so it hit Fargo perfectly to flood, wouldn't that mean that the river would be lower the other 11 months plus two weeks of the year? Hell, Fargo has had SECONDARY crests that were worse than most of the floods in the '70s and '80s.

[lakesbison]

well, maybe its finally catching up tony? oh well, like you said, ill stick to what i know, (dogging the nutbeard of the north)

but thank you unbison for your professional opinion!

[unbison]

Don't believe he said it was the only reason

[lakesbison]

yes, Im not saying its the only reason, but its A BIG ONE!

[roadwarrior]

The water flowing right now in the Otter Tail river is not a good sign for this spring. Flooding in january?

[tony]

yes, Im not saying its the only reason, but its A BIG ONE!

As big as the diversion at Wapheton-Breckingridge?

Average precipitation in the Valley before the wet cycle started: 19" per year.
Average precipitation in the Valley since the wet cycle started: 24" per year.

The land never dries out like it used to. Imagine that the land in the RRV is like a sponge. This sponge used to get soaked in the spring and then wrung out by winter. Now the sponge is full of water and can't take any more water even in November.

Every other cause you come up with is NOTHING compared to the wet cycle.

Building in South Fargo might make the effects of a flood worse but it doesn't cause a flood... in fact, that slough you are talking about is much more likely to flood from overland water than by the Red.

I admit that better drainage of farm land gets water to the river more quickly but can anybody say how much it affects the crest?

[NDSU_grad]

The reason there's more flooding in the rrv than in years past is because there's more precip. Everybody wants to blame somebody, but it really is as simple as that.
Sure, farmers are draining more, but think about how many more bushels are produced because of that drainage. What do you think transpires more, a 70 bushel wheat crop or a 50 bushel wheat crop? Think about the corn and soybean acreage in the valley versus 20-30 years ago. What transpires more, a 200 bushel corn/50 bushel bean crop or a 50 bushel wheat crop?
The crops we grow now in the valley are sucking a huge amount of water out of the ground. I could argue flooding would be a heck a lot of worse if farmers weren't draining.

[BisonCountry]

The reason there's more flooding in the rrv than in years past is because there's more precip. Everybody wants to blame somebody, but it really is as simple as that.
Sure, farmers are draining more, but think about how many more bushels are produced because of that drainage. What do you think transpires more, a 70 bushel wheat crop or a 50 bushel wheat crop? Think about the corn and soybean acreage in the valley versus 20-30 years ago. What transpires more, a 200 bushel corn/50 bushel bean crop or a 50 bushel wheat crop?
The crops we grow now in the valley are sucking a huge amount of water out of the ground. I could argue flooding would be a heck a lot of worse if farmers weren't draining.

+++++
I always get a good laugh at the its the farmer's fault argument.

[CAS4127]

+++++
I always get a good laugh at the its the farmer's fault argument.

If you are suggesting that drainage is not part of the equation, then the rest of us can have a good laugh too!!:nod:

[NDSU_grad]

If you are suggesting that drainage is not part of the equation, then the rest of us can have a good laugh too!!:nod:

Sure, it sounds simple. But think about if those drains weren't there. That water would be sitting on those fields all summer and there wouldn't be a crop planted. Some of it would eventually drain into the Red but you would essentially have a surface water table all throughout the summer, into the fall into freeze up.
Then add 70-80 inches of snow onto what is now essentially a frozen lake. How bad do you think that flood would be?

[BisonCountry]

If you are suggesting that drainage is not part of the equation, then the rest of us can have a good laugh too!!:nod:

Fields have been ditched/drained for years....tiling and GPS have made them more efficient as was posted earlier but they are not the root of the problem. Late Fall precipitation which has saturated the valley is the problem.

[CAS4127]

Sure, it sounds simple. But think about if those drains weren't there. That water would be sitting on those fields all summer and there wouldn't be a crop planted. Some of it would eventually drain into the Red but you would essentially have a surface water table all throughout the summer, into the fall into freeze up.
Then add 70-80 inches of snow onto what is now essentially a frozen lake. How bad do you think that flood would be?

My God, I have never thought of that. What possibly was even grown in the Red River Valley before legal drains of the amount and sizes we have now, Ducks??!!

[tony]

My God, I have never thought of that. What possibly was even grown in the Red River Valley before legal drains of the amount and sizes we have now, Ducks??!!

Pretty sure the drains were always there. Heck, you could just as easily argue that all the raised roads in the valley slow down water more than drains speed it up.

[NDSU_grad]

My God, I have never thought of that. What possibly was even grown in the Red River Valley before legal drains of the amount and sizes we have now, Ducks??!!

When's the last time we had precip in the valley like we've exerienced the last 10-12 years?

[Notorious]

When's the last time we had precip in the valley like we've exerienced the last 10-12 years?

65 million years ago?

[CAS4127]

Fields have been ditched/drained for years....tiling and GPS have made them more efficient as was posted earlier but they are not the root of the problem. Late Fall precipitation which has saturated the valley is the problem.

I ain't talking about field drains.

[CAS4127]

Pretty sure the drains were always there. Heck, you could just as easily argue that all the raised roads in the valley slow down water more than drains speed it up.

Really? Then mother nature/God was one hell of an engineer. And roads do slow water down--so it's a good thing we have them.

[CAS4127]

When's the last time we had precip in the valley like we've exerienced the last 10-12 years?

I don't know. When is that last time we had precip in the valley like we've experienced in the last 10-12 years with the number and size of the legal drains we have now?

[NDSU_grad]

I don't know. When is that last time we had precip in the valley like we've experienced in the last 10-12 years with the number and size of the legal drains we have now?

So which of these two do you think is the predominant cause of flooding?

[CAS4127]

So which of these two do you think is the predominant cause of flooding?

Yes!

10 Char

[NDSU_grad]

Yes!

10 Char

LOL. Thanks for helping boost my post count.

[tony]

Really? Then mother nature/God was one hell of an engineer. And roads do slow water down--so it's a good thing we have them.

Heh, when do you think the drains were put in? My money is at the aame time the roads were. Pretty sure there were floods long before there were drains. Also pretty sure that we went several decades with drains with only one flood anything like the ones we're seeing with astonishingly regularity lately.

It just seems to me like this drainage argument is one that is used as an excuse to sit around, thumbs up our asses, while we wait for Fargo-Moorhead to get wiped out by a flood.

Heck, I thought last time this argument was brought up, it was the TILING that was supposed to be causing the floods.

[CAS4127]

LOL. Thanks for helping boost my post count.

My posting has tendency to cause that. Want to discuss the "waffleplan" next???:D

[CAS4127]

Heh, when do you think the drains were put in? My money is at the aame time the roads were. Pretty sure there were floods long before there were drains. Also pretty sure that we went several decades with drains with only one flood anything like the ones we're seeing with astonishingly regularity lately.

It just seems to me like this drainage argument is one that is used as an excuse to sit around, thumbs up our asses, while we wait for Fargo-Moorhead to get wiped out by a flood.

Heck, I thought last time this argument was brought up, it was the TILING that was supposed to be causing the floods.

Tony, I drive the RRV between Fargo and GF almost everyday. Trust me, more and more "legal drains" (nothing to do with field "tiling"--although that gets the water to the drains more quickly) are being put in, and the pre-existing ones are being deepened and widened every year. If you have time, take the road just north of Cummings off of old 81 and head east toward the Red. About 5 miles from the Red, you will see one that is being deepened and widened, and you will not believe it. It is huge, and likely one of the 5 largest "rivers" in ND come Spring melt. Plus, they have 5 more miles to go, and this is only one that you can drive by on a paved road, but there are similar ones every 2-3 miles or so up and down the Valley. I am not suggesting these are "THE" cause, but it is kinda hard to argue they are not "part" of the causation equation.

[gotts]

Tony, I drive the RRV between Fargo and GF almost everyday. Trust me, more and more "legal drains" (nothing to do with field "tiling"--although that gets the water to the drains more quickly) are being put in, and the pre-existing ones are being deepened and widened every year. If you have time, take the road just north of Cummings off of old 81 and head east toward the Red. About 5 miles from the Red, you will see one that is being deepened and widened, and you will not believe it. It is huge, and likely one of the 5 largest "rivers" in ND come Spring melt. Plus, they have 5 more miles to go, and this is only one that you can drive by on a paved road, but there are similar ones every 2-3 miles or so up and down the Valley. I am not suggesting these are "THE" cause, but it is kinda hard to argue they are not "part" of the causation equation.

Could you possibly provide the number of the county legal drain?

[lakesbison]

Tony. im talking about hwy 210 from fergus falls to breckenridge.
the drain pipes are coming from UNDER these fields into the ditches....its amazing how much water flows then down 210 to breckenridge's diversion.

[gotts]

Tony. im talking about hwy 210 from fergus falls to breckenridge.
the drain pipes are coming from UNDER these fields into the ditches....its amazing how much water flows then down 210 to breckenridge's diversion.

It's still but a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

Talk to the engineers in the area and they'll tell you precipitation/saturated ground is the leading problem.

[CAS4127]

Could you possibly provide the number of the county legal drain?

They are not per se "county" legal drains, but "legal drains" in the sense that property owners benefitting from them are taxed for the building, maintaining and reconstructing of the them. I know Traill county has at least 10 within it's boundaries (if not more), so one need only do the math with the number of counties in the valley as the multiplier. But, then, there are counties, such as Steele (and others), which are not directly adjacent to the Red, but that have "legal drains" that flow into the watershed area of legal drains in counties that are, so there is a multiplying affect. Plus, Minnesota also has legal drains that flow west into the Red River basin.

[CAS4127]

It's still but a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

Talk to the engineers, many of whom work for county water commisions and are paid to design and oversee the construction of legal drains in the area, and they'll tell you precipitation/saturated ground is the leading problem.

Had to fix that one up a little for you Gotts.

Oh, and each drop contributes to filling the bucket.

[spelunker64]

I don't know. When is that last time we had precip in the valley like we've experienced in the last 10-12 years with the number and size of the legal drains we have now?

So you're in favor of putting the biggest "legal Drain" around Fargo then to protect it from a 1 in 500 year event

[roadwarrior]

So you're in favor of putting the biggest "legal Drain" around Fargo then to protect it from a 1 in 500 year event

??? This year would be the 3rd year in a row that this "drain" would be used.

[CAS4127]

So you're in favor of putting the biggest "legal Drain" around Fargo then to protect it from a 1 in 500 year event

No, unless in also passed to the west of Hillsboro, although I do not want to pay for it even if it does provide protection/benefit. I say move the houses and businesses out of harms way, and let the "draining" begin!!:nod: :D

[spelunker64]

??? This year would be the 3rd year in a row that this "drain" would be used.

But it's for a 500 year flood event, so we should be good for the next 1,497 years. Or do they have their info correct.

[tony]

Tony, I drive the RRV between Fargo and GF almost everyday. Trust me, more and more "legal drains" (nothing to do with field "tiling"--although that gets the water to the drains more quickly) are being put in, and the pre-existing ones are being deepened and widened every year.

If you were driving between Fargo and Wahpeton, you might have a point. :)

[CAS4127]

If you were driving between Fargo and Wahpeton, you might have a point. :)

Touche--but it is happening upstream of Fargo too!!

[spelunker64]

Touche--but it is happening upstream of Fargo too!!

And if it wasn't for those drains and improving agriculture we wouldn't be too worried about protecting Fargo. It's just a higher precipitation event in flat country, not rocket science here.

[EndZoneQB]

If you were driving between Fargo and Wahpeton, you might have a point. :)

While that *works* in theory, more water downstream will cause more water upstream in Fargo etc. Remember, the unique situation is we have water flowing north where the ice doesn't melt. More water getting there faster anywhere isn't going to be good.

[roadwarrior]

But it's for a 500 year flood event, so we should be good for the next 1,497 years. Or do they have their info correct.

It would protect to a maximum of their definition of a 500 year event. That would also include all of the 100 year events and the 60 year events and so on that happen.

[rabidrabbit]

It's still but a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

Talk to the engineers in the area and they'll tell you precipitation/saturated ground is the leading problem.

The Red River of the North has several disadvantages for flood control.
1) Flows north, so more likely to freeze up downstream than a south flowing river.
2) FLAT slope
3) WIDE valley. Very difficult to shove a 6 in deep x 15 mile wide into a 18 foot deep 400' channel. Both the Grand Forks and Fargo areas suffer from this issue.
4) A dam downstream in Canada to protect Winnipeg from flooding. Sorry US affected property owners, Canadians aren't agreeable to relieve flooding in US at cost to Canada.

High Groundwater Table, flat valley, and houses with basements = flood problems.

The best solutions would be for all the buildings in Fargo-Morehead be on 3-4' crawl spaces, and just let that flood go under the house. If you have a house with a basement, get flood insurance NOW, (if don't have already). If not in the regulatory floodplain shown on the FEMA Flood Insurance Rate Map, this coverage is available for preferred rates, and about $400/year. Should be as automatic to have flood insurance as to have home owner insurance. Don't know if in flood zone. Look it up here:

http://msc.fema.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/FemaWelcomeView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1

While Fargo/Morehead is not yet available in a Google Earth application, the Grand Forks area is available digitally on a Google Earth application found at the lower right corner of the Map Service Center website above.

Fargo-Morehead needs the upstream areas to capture more run-off prior to arrival into the Red River Valley. That is counter productive to those property owners. A structural solution is going to be very costly and will not likely create an acceptable solution. Fargo-Morehead has had tremendous success in the flood fights to date. May they be likewise successful. If they aren't, I may get chances to work with many North Dakotans and Minnesotans is the post-disaster.

[spelunker64]

It would protect to a maximum of their definition of a 500 year event. That would also include all of the 100 year events and the 60 year events and so on that happen.

OK so, 57 years then. I'm just saying it's a huge waste of money for the diversion

[roadwarrior]

OK so, 57 years then. I'm just saying it's a huge waste of money for the diversion

The diversion would carry water whenever the Red exceeds 30' in Fargo. That is almost every year recently. (30' is where 2nd street starts to flood near downtown.)

[spelunker64]

The diversion would carry water whenever the Red exceeds 30' in Fargo. That is almost every year recently. (30' is where 2nd street starts to flood near downtown.)

Do we need to spend Billions of $$$ and take way 9,000 acres of farmland to save 2nd Street though?

[rabidrabbit]

1% annual chance flood = 100-year flood is defined by FEMA (44 Code of Federal Register, Section 59) as "the flood having a one percent chance of being equalled or exceeded in any given year."

This works well as long as it is an independent event. Devil Lake's flood levels are not an independent event, but are dependent on the prior year's level as it is a closed basin (until it gets to 1423? NAVD). River flooding is an independent event.

There is a 26% chance of flood losses over a typical 30-year mortgage if in a 1% annual chance flood.

[NDSUstudent]

OK so, 57 years then. I'm just saying it's a huge waste of money for the diversion

No it isn't, if it saves just one flood from devastating Fargo like GF was, it is worth every penny.

[spelunker64]

No it isn't, if it saves just one flood from devastating Fargo like GF was, it is worth every penny.

GF is still here, and doing better I think that it was pre-flood

[NDSUstudent]

GF is still here, and doing better I think that it was pre-flood

Tell that to the people that lost everything...Had to rebuild and deal with all of that stress and pain. It took the cost of the diversion just to repair the damage to the city and Fargo is a heck of lot bigger than GF.

[EndZoneQB]

GF is still here, and doing better I think that it was pre-flood

You aren't going to win this argument. Go play in traffic.


Tell that to the people that lost everything...Had to rebuild and deal with all of that stress and pain. It took the cost of the diversion just to repair the damage to the city and Fargo is a heck of lot bigger than GF.

Not to mention the kids that had to be shipped off to go to school elsewhere. I know we had a bunch of kids come to Moorhead. It was a weird experience all the way around...I can't imagine being the kid that is out of place.

[CAS4127]

GF is still here, and doing better I think that it was pre-flood

Waid until after Fargo puts in the diversion, and then get back to us. FYI, I understand morsecode signals travel well under water!!

[spelunker64]

You aren't going to win this argument. Go play in traffic.

I wasn't too serious about that comment, just gauging the level of GF interest in the forum. :)

[Bison bison]

Do we need to spend Billions of $$$ and take way 9,000 acres of farmland to save 2nd Street though?

Fargo has many important people who live there.

It also has many buildings and things.

[spelunker64]

Waid until after Fargo puts in the diversion, and then get back to us. FYI, I understand morsecode signals travel well under water!!

It's not going to happen, do you really think the Fed Gov't wants to dump that amount of $$$ into Fargo with a Trillion $ deficit.

[EndZoneQB]

I wasn't too serious about that comment, just gauging the level of GF interest in the forum. :)

Fuck GF! haha.

[met1990]

Fargo has many important people who live there.

It also has many buildings and things.

Does it also have many leather-bound books that smell of rich mahogany?

[Notorious]

If I were planning to purchase a small parcel for a future lake home, where would be a good place to consider....?

Should I look at bit west of Casselton??

[spelunker64]

Does the county tax that Fargo passed resemble a certain Southpark episode?

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/151040/the-underpants-business

[spelunker64]

If I were planning to purchase a small parcel for a future lake home, where would be a good place to consider....?

Should I look at bit west of Casselton??

Yep, Wheatland area, or maybe south of Kindred in the Sandhills, more trees there

[homer]

Fuck GF! haha.

Comments like this that make people up and down the Red River Valley fight that diversion. I think it needs to be done but arrogant comments by people who live in Fargo about other communities that will be affected don't exactly get people excited to go along with the plan. Nothing will get done unless every community up and down the valley are on board.

[CAS4127]

Comments like this that make people up and down the Red River Valley fight that diversion. I think it needs to be done but arrogant comments by people who live in Fargo about other communities that will be affected don't exactly get people excited to go along with the plan. Nothing will get done unless every community up and down the valley are All-aboard.

FIFY

10Char

[EndZoneQB]

Comments like this that make people up and down the Red River Valley fight that diversion. I think it needs to be done but arrogant comments by people who live in Fargo about other communities that will be affected don't exactly get people excited to go along with the plan. Nothing will get done unless every community up and down the valley are on board.

Oh god, relax. As much as I personally don't like the city, I'm not going to wish harm and/or total destruction on it or anyone.

[coldspot]

Oh god, relax. As much as I personally don't like the city, I'm not going to wish harm and/or total destruction on it or anyone.

well they already had their total destruction once.

[Bison Dan]

Comments like this that make people up and down the Red River Valley fight that diversion. I think it needs to be done but arrogant comments by people who live in Fargo about other communities that will be affected don't exactly get people excited to go along with the plan. Nothing will get done unless every community up and down the valley are on board.

As long as you got your's right! I don't remember "every community" having any input in rebuilding gf or anything about flood control. Seems to me there were a few communities North of you affected. I think yours came to around 2 billion with both the rebuilding and dike. I wonder what it would cost to rebuild Fargo???

[spelunker64]

As long as you got your's right! I don't remember "every community" having any input in rebuilding gf or anything about flood control. Seems to me there were a few communities North of you affected. I think yours came to around 2 billion with both the rebuilding and dike. I wonder what it would cost to rebuild Fargo???

Depends on what parts we want to rebuild, have you every gone east of the Hub? :)

[NorthernBison]

But it's for a 500 year flood event, so we should be good for the next 1,497 years. Or do they have their info correct.

Lots of misinformation out there regarding 100 year floods, 500 year floods etc.

Hopefully people realized that the difference between a 100 year flood and a 500 year flood might be 6 inches or a foot. And the 50 year event might be only slightly less than that. All three cause a crapload of damage.

And, a river level that is 2 inches under the 500 year mark is only a 100 year event.

[tony]

Gotta say, even though this wet cycle has been dragging on for 17 years, it's still better than a drought.

If Fargo-Moorhead is allowed to flood, it will undoubtedly be the greatest fuckup in the history of North Dakota. Especially given that billions and billions have been spent on flood protection in Horace/West Fargo, Minot, Grand Forks, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, and Bismarck-Mandan.

[homer]

As long as you got your's right! I don't remember "every community" having any input in rebuilding gf or anything about flood control. Seems to me there were a few communities North of you affected. I think yours came to around 2 billion with both the rebuilding and dike. I wonder what it would cost to rebuild Fargo???

Don't preach to me Danno. I'm all for the diversion. I was just saying its comments like that that the people against the diversion will hold against you no matter if your joking or not. For some of these people some random poster on a message board represents the whole city of Fargo.

Its also just as easy for someone to say Fu*@ Fargo. If you lose a majority of your personal belongings when Fargo floods you just won't think its as funny as the person who says it.

[lakesbison]

well, I still recall 1997 and people in FARGO saying "ah, govt, you're building dykes up north, why not fargo?"

weird huh.

[Bison bison]

2 inches under the 500 year mark is only a 100 year event.

I keep telling my wife than another two inches wouldn't matter.

[TheBisonator]

well, I still recall 1997 and people in FARGO saying "ah, govt, you're building dykes up north, why not fargo?"

weird huh.

And believe me, there are a LOT of dykes up north in GF.

[Civil06]

My God, I have never thought of that. What possibly was even grown in the Red River Valley before legal drains of the amount and sizes we have now, Ducks??!!

Most legal drains have been around since the early 1900's. The size you're seeing today has to do with needing a flatter side slope for soil stability because the old ditches with 2H:1V or 3H:1V slopes were failing. Ditches don't create water, they manage the flow path to protect property and infrastructure. Legal drains are designed for a 5-10 year recurrence period and are completely overwhelmed on the big floods.

This chart shows the reason it's flooding (notice the precipitation from the late 1800's and consider that the only floods comparable to what we're seeing today were in that time period):
http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsco/precip/summary/graph/images/fargo.png

[Bison bison]

I'm making t-shirts:

North Dakota: Ignorance or GTFO!

[Facts]

Above average precip is obviously the cause.

And to those of you who want to blame drainage in a farmers field, either tile or gradient, think about the condition of the soil during flooding season and then you'll realize drainage in farmer's field does didly squat during a major flood.

HINT: The soil state starts with F and ends with ROZEN!

[homer]

well, I still recall 1997 and people in FARGO saying "ah, govt, you're building dykes up north, why not fargo?"

weird huh.

I wonder how much it would cost to buy out the areas of town to widen the river and build dikes and greenways. Problem is you have as many people with a lot of money fighting that form of protection. Ron Offet doesn't want a large dyke 5 feet out his back door. Either does everyone else on Harwood Dr.. Downtown would change a lot as well. I'm betting in another ten years we'll still be wondering where the diversion is at.

[TheBisonator]

Above average precip is obviously the cause.

And to those of you who want to blame drainage in a farmers field, either tile or gradient, think about the condition of the soil during flooding season and then you'll realize drainage in farmer's field does didly squat during a major flood.

HINT: The soil state starts with F and ends with ROZEN!

I'm tending to agree with you. The last few years I lived in Fargo, I saw more snow than I had ever seen in a winter in my lifetime. And I lived thru a LOT of bad Mpls. winters. Snow at the latest and earliest calendar dates of the season, and even cooler than average summers a couple of those years. Almost like mini nuclear winter set over the place. At least that's what I thought when I was trudging my way thru a snow-covered campus in the last week of April...

BTW, Walking home from the computer lab here in Toronto in a few mins. Outside: 35 and light rain. In Fargo currently, negative 7.

[backpages]

Last fall I had a chance to check out the beginning of the Buffalo River Watershed which is a high hill near White Earth, MN. Everything to the south flows to the Buffalo River which enters the Red River south of Fargo and all water north flows to the Wild Rice and enters the Red (I believe) north of Fargo. Anyway, that hill is nearly 70 miles east of Fargo and there is absolutely nothing to stop or hold the water. On a clear night you can see the lights of F-M. Nearly all the potholes and sloughs have been drained and the runoff is nearly a straight shot to the Red. I was told this was done during the 50’s and 60’s and paid for by the federal government. They wanted as much land as possible growing grain for reserves as it was the height of the cold war. Now, add in the popularity of drain tile in those fields and the problem just compounds itself. I don’t blame the farmers as they are just trying to carve out a living. It is a very complex problem and one that won’t be easily solved.

[Civil06]

Above average precip is obviously the cause.

And to those of you who want to blame drainage in a farmers field, either tile or gradient, think about the condition of the soil during flooding season and then you'll realize drainage in farmer's field does didly squat during a major flood.

HINT: The soil state starts with F and ends with ROZEN!

Bingo. I've seen water flowing around a legal drain because the drain was completely blocked with ice and snow and there were turkeys standing in the middle of the drain because it was high and dry. Water will get to the river on a large event no matter which route it takes.

[roadwarrior]

Last fall I had a chance to check out the beginning of the Buffalo River Watershed which is a high hill near White Earth, MN. Everything to the south flows to the Buffalo River which enters the Red River south of Fargo and all water north flows to the Wild Rice and enters the Red (I believe) north of Fargo.

The Buffalo River enters the Red north of Fargo near Georgetown. The Wild Rice (MN) enters the Red near Halstad.

[backpages]

The Buffalo River enters the Red north of Fargo near Georgetown. The Wild Rice (MN) enters the Red near Halstad.

Thanks for the correction. (I’m not that familiar with the MN side.) So that water, as well as the Wild Rice becomes a nemesis for Hendrum, Halstad and that area. Either way, that a lot of runoff. Thanks again.

[DjKyRo]

Can't believe anyone would think a diversion isn't worth it. It's the best solution to the yearly flood problem I've seen yet (not that I'm any kind of engineering authority or anything). Tell my aunt, who was in tears when the city told them they had to bail out of their house in Moorhead last spring, it's not worth protecting the city from a flood.

[backpages]

roadwarrior: For whatever reason, mostly my ignorance, I thought the Buffalo entered the Red via Sabin. Amazing, the water heading toward Fargo has nothing to do with the Buffalo or Wild Rice Watershed. In hind sight it explains the significantly higher crests downstream and, for me anyway, it sheds new light on what they were dealing with in Grand Forks and points north in 1997. Thanks again for educating me.

[Civil06]

roadwarrior: For whatever reason, mostly my ignorance, I thought the Buffalo entered the Red via Sabin. Amazing, the water heading toward Fargo has nothing to do with the Buffalo or Wild Rice Watershed. In hind sight it explains the significantly higher crests downstream and, for me anyway, it sheds new light on what they were dealing with in Grand Forks and points north in 1997. Thanks again for educating me.

This is what is so complex and interesting about floods. Timing is absolutely everything. Sometimes, the Buffalo and Wild Rice (MN) will have their peak discharge into the Red ahead (or behind) of the Red River crest. What happens on the really bad floods is when the tributary timing is such that they are peaking at the same time as the Red and the problem keeps compounding downstream like in 1997 the tributaries downstream of Fargo came together for a terrible flood in Grand Forks. In 2009, the Wild Rice (ND) and the Red were peaking at the same time just upstream of Fargo. It's rare that the peaks stack like they did.

[roadwarrior]

One of the biggest contributors to the Red River is the Otter Tail River. I looked up some information and had no idea that the river drains such a large area!

I found this info on Wikipedia:


The Otter Tail River is a river in the west-central portion of Minnesota. It begins in Clearwater County near Bemidji. It then flows through a number of lakes and cities in Minnesota, including Elbow Lake, Many Point Lake, Chippewa Lake, Height of Land Lake, Frazee, the Pine lakes, Rush Lake, Otter Tail Lake and Ottertail, West Lost Lake, Fergus Falls, and Orwell Lake. After about 189 miles, it joins with the Bois de Sioux River to form the Red River at Wahpeton, North Dakota. The Red River is the Minnesota-North Dakota boundary from this point onward to the Canadian border. Waters of the Red River watershed ultimately flow north into Hudson Bay, which is part of the Arctic Ocean.

[EndZoneQB]

I wonder how much it would cost to buy out the areas of town to widen the river and build dikes and greenways. Problem is you have as many people with a lot of money fighting that form of protection. Ron Offet doesn't want a large dyke 5 feet out his back door. Either does everyone else on Harwood Dr.. Downtown would change a lot as well. I'm betting in another ten years we'll still be wondering where the diversion is at.

Sad part is, I think you're on to something here. If we can get through this wet cycle(TWSS), we should be able to handle well enough. And as for the stubborn people, I couldn't agree more. I remember an article in the foolem last year about an older gentleman(Paulson I think it is) that refused to move/sell his house in the flood plain. BUT, he paid for his own ring dike around his house. If you are going to be a stick in the mud, pay for your own damn protection! This guy had it right!

[Civil06]

One of the biggest contributors to the Red River is the Otter Tail River. I looked up some information and had no idea that the river drains such a large area!

The crazy think about the Ottertail is that normally the lakes act like 1000 dams that attenuate the peak enough so that it has a lot of flood control. The dams on the mainstem, other than Orwell, are for hydropower and not flood control. What's happening right now during the wet cycle is that the lakes are full, the water table is actually higher than the lake level in some areas which means excess water is getting into the lakes, but with no room for storage it is running off into the river and is flooding in January. Last November, Orwell Dam was releasing water at the same rate as the peak of record (1997). I'm convinced the the Otter Tail will be a player this Spring more than it has been in the past. Hopefully the operators at Orwell Dam can operate the gates perfectly, because without much storage available, timing is everything.

[tjbison]

Bottom Line at this rate Agassiz is coming back:smh:

[IzzyFlexion]

Yeah, I know they were talking about the north-south slope - only included it because I love the visual. In fact, they might have said it was sheet of paper stuck under one end (if I find the article, I'll post a link.)

However, the article went on to say that the north end of the valley was still rebounding from where the weight of the glacier had compressed the earth's crust.

Correcto!
I believe the average S-N slope in the southern valley is about 3-4 inches per mile and closer to 1-2 inches per mile in the north causing the 80 trillion "s" turns along the slow crawling route.
I think that theory also forecasts an eventual reversal to a N-S slope with this gradual rebound effect.
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong since my geology skills and/or knowledge is horseshit.

[ISXBISON]

For several years, city planners, officials, and the powers that be; along with their typical lack of forward thinking, preferred spending a few million in stop-gap/temporary protection instead of putting the emphasis on a permanent solution. Walaker included. Yes, he has been instrumental in fighting the floods, but he was also detrimental to permanent protection prior to the last couple years.

Had this process started when it should have---we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[99Bison]

Correcto!
I believe the average S-N slope in the southern valley is about 3-4 inches per mile and closer to 1-2 inches per mile in the north causing the 80 trillion "s" turns along the slow crawling route.
I think that theory also forecasts an eventual reversal to a N-S slope with this gradual rebound effect.
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong since my geology skills and/or knowledge is horseshit.

Yes, I believe the running theory is in some number of hundred years there will be a lake formed at the N-S tipping point... Then will run out sideways or something... Can't remember if the lake was N or S of GF.

[ndsubison1]

I understand the urgent need to build a diversion in FM, and nobody's arguing that. But I find it perplexing that it seems like almost every third year we're expecting a record flood, when before 1997 a city-threatening flood seemed to happen not even once in a generation. Is FM getting waaaay more snow than average the past 10 years?? Could this be a sign of global climate change (I find the "warming" term ludicrous, since climate change effects more places in ways that are non-warming)?? Is this just something the region will have to deal with often now, that is 100+ inches of snow every winter??

I mean, I remember a few years ago, I remember the exact date. It was May 10, and the semester just ended. I looked out my apartment window and I saw SNOW. I remember the one April from a couple years ago where we had like 4 feet of snow that month. It was eerie. Is the climate in the region just changing??

(As I type this it's 37 degrees where I am, didn't even need to bring a jacket to school)

well if minnesota would get their heads out of their ass and let a diversion be made on their side

[lakesbison]

oh god, there is NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING west of fargo put it there.

[ndsubison1]

west fargo is west of fargo

[lakesbison]

WEST of Eagle Run is nothing I mean (actually crazy pyscho ex gf lives in that, put it thru her condo)

[unbison]

Mn was not as against it as Much as big denny was

[spelunker64]

Can't believe anyone would think a diversion isn't worth it. It's the best solution to the yearly flood problem I've seen yet (not that I'm any kind of engineering authority or anything). Tell my aunt, who was in tears when the city told them they had to bail out of their house in Moorhead last spring, it's not worth protecting the city from a flood.

There are many that don't think it's worth it, and that's is the key word. I agree that Fargo is important to the region and a major disaster would be terrible, but to push Fargo's water off onto other people and take away valuable farmland, not to mention the land west of the diversion that would have to be prevent planted every year due to standing water waiting to drain into Denny's ditch.

I would just like to see the plan or cost analysis of a greenway down the middle of the river. The city just seems to completely ignore that option every time and it has never been discussed or talked about in public.

[spelunker64]

oh god, there is NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING west of fargo put it there.

Other than valuable land that adds tax dollars, family income, ag jobs, future development, but ya nothing out there...

[roadwarrior]

I would just like to see the plan or cost analysis of a greenway down the middle of the river. The city just seems to completely ignore that option every time and it has never been discussed or talked about in public.

The Corps did look at this option. It was more expensive than the diversion.

[Bison bison]

The Corps did look at this option. It was more expensive than the diversion.

This.

The math wasn't even close.

[spelunker64]

The Corps did look at this option. It was more expensive than the diversion.

That is the most descriptive mention of that option from anyone though, I'd at least like to see some numbers and the proof of actually researching that option.

[roadwarrior]

That is the most descriptive mention of that option from anyone though, I'd at least like to see some numbers and the proof of actually researching that option.

I read it in the Forum.

[bisonbills]

Move the city. They moved Churches Ferry, why not Fargo? :)

[spelunker64]

I read it in the Forum.

Oh, there's a top rated source. ;)

[Civil06]

That is the most descriptive mention of that option from anyone though, I'd at least like to see some numbers and the proof of actually researching that option.

It's easy to criticize the process when you didn't attend any of the meetings. Here is the draft feasibility report (25 MB): http://www.mvp.usace.army.mil/docs/projs/1455/100528_Draft_Feas_report_Public_FINAL.pdf

Some excerpts from the report:

3.4.5.1 Flood barriers (including levees) were eliminated because they were both less effective and less cost effective than diversion plans in providing a high level of risk reduction. The top elevation of flood barrier alternatives is limited to the highest natural ground available to begin and end the levee; within the study area, flood barriers could not be certified to contain floods larger than about a 30,000 cfs event. Such a plan would leave unacceptably high residual risk. The flood barrier plans that were evaluated would also have caused large short term social impacts, due to the need to remove over 1,000 structures in the urban floodplain. The flood barrier plans were eliminated with knowledge of a number of uncertainties which would likely increase the overall cost which include: possible upstream impacts, the use of floodwalls versus earthen levees, geotechnical concerns, uncertainties with local pump stations, impacts to historical properties, and possible mitigation.

3.4.5.2. Tunneling was eliminated from consideration due to low cost effectiveness. Tunneling would be used to divert flows under the communities; this would function similar to a diversion channel, but underground. It was estimated that at least three 30-foot diameter tunnels
approximately 25 miles long would be needed to provide approximately 25,000 cubic feet per second capacity. The cost of such a plan was estimated to be $3.75 billion, which is significantly higher than the cost of a comparably sized diversion channel.

3.4.5.3 Reconstructing the Interstate 29 (I-29) corridor to serve as an open viaduct during floods was considered. The system would function as an interstate highway during non-flood times. It would essentially be a diversion channel with an interstate highway either on the bottom or elevated. Demolition and reconstruction of the existing Interstate highway structures and pavement would cost at least $400 million. Excavation costs would be similar to diversion channels. Real estate would be required to dispose of the excavated material. Total cost of this alternative would likely be $1.4 billion to $4.0 billion. Operation and maintenance costs of the corridor and the roadway would be high. Concerns with this alternative included ice jams, access to evacuation routes during flood events, and long term maintenance of the structures. Local drainage and snow melt year-round and backwater into the channel during minor flood events would inundate the highway if it was located at the bottom of the channel. This alternative was dropped from consideration due to low cost-effectiveness, operation and maintenance concerns and impacts to transportation.

3.4.5.4 Digging the Red River channel deeper and wider to allow for more flow to pass through the Fargo-Moorhead Metropolitan Area was considered, including Oakport Coulee. This alternative could also be looked at underneath existing bridges to prevent the damming effect the bridges can create. This alternative would have very limited hydraulic effectiveness and would likely have negative effects on the stability of the riverbanks throughout the length of the project. Dredging and widening the channel would have a variety of potential adverse environmental effects. Increased sedimentation, displacement of mussels, erosion issues, riparian forest habitat loss, aquatic habitat, and wildlife mortality issues would need to be addressed. This alternative would also have a large potential impact on archeological resources, which are typically located on riverbanks and would be disturbed by this alternative. Because of the extreme environmental impacts, this alternative would violate many local and national policies and would not be acceptable. The alternative was dropped due to its relative ineffectiveness and overall unacceptability.


Here's a link to the appendices if you want to read even further: http://www.internationalwaterinstitute.org/feasibility/index.htm

A greenway is economically and environmentally devastating. Also, the 500-yr floodplain in Fargo covers almost the entire city. Therefore, you could have a greenway half the width of the city and the rest would still flood.

[tony]

I'd like to see the dike analysis too.

I think the basic problem is that the soil doesn't support flood walls, you'd have to build dikes and they would only be high enough to protect for something little more than a 100-year flood. As we've seen, the definition for 100-year flood can change over time so if it goes higher again, then you've got a $500-million dollar water feature. Another problem with dikes is that they don't protect from overland flooding. Another problem is that they fail. The longer the dike system, the more apt it is to fail, and the higher the dike system, the more devestating that failure will be (because the facts are that all dikes fail eventually.)

Anyway, if I remember correctly, the CoE analysis showed that a dike system might actually have been cheaper, but that there was no way to get it to protect against much more than a 100-year flood so, while cheaper, the benefit was so much lower that cost-benefit ratio was terrible.

[Civil06]

I'd like to see the dike analysis too.

I think the basic problem is that the soil doesn't support flood walls, you'd have to build dikes and they would only be high enough to protect for a 100-year flood. As we've seen, the definition for 100-year flood can change over time so if it goes higher again, then you've got a $500-million dollar water feature. Another problem with dikes is that they don't protect from overland flooding. Another problem is that they fail. The longer the dike system, the more apt it is to fail, and the higher the dike system, the more devestating that failure will be (because the facts are that all dikes fail eventually.)

You're correct about only being able to protect to a 100-yr level in Fargo. There's no high ground around to tie into so if you went higher than the ground, at some point, water would just go around the levee (unless it was really, really long). The fact of having to remove 1000+ structures to achieve 100-yr protection makes the diversion a much more desireable alternative.

[Grizzled]

You're correct about only being able to protect to a 100-yr level in Fargo. There's no high ground around to tie into so if you went higher than the ground, at some point, water would just go around the levee (unless it was really, really long). The fact of having to remove 1000+ structures to achieve 100-yr protection makes the diversion a much more desireable alternative.

So Fargo should just wait 20 years for a diversion to get done?

[roadwarrior]

Fargo nor Moorhead is just sitting around waiting for the diversion. They both have completed a number of smaller projects that will help protect against the levels we have seen recently. And more are scheduled to be completed this year.

[Grizzled]

Fargo nor Moorhead is just sitting around waiting for the diversion. They both have completed a number of smaller projects that will help protect against the levels we have seen recently. And more are scheduled to be completed this year.

I understand that Road but none of them are permanent forms of protection we need. You can see the confusion about information out there just on this board and everyone on here is pretty much a genius. :D

The leaders of the community need to beat this to death. If anything is really going to get done I think they need to get this information out there and keep beating a dead horse. Overkill people with information. Yes they have their meetings but they don't show up at the meetings of other groups with other ideas. People can leave those meetings feeling like those ideas are just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive. I've been to some of them and talked to people when they leave. At this rate nothing permanent is going to get done and "if" something happens there are just going to be a bunch of people pointing fingers saying I told you so and in todays world not many people outside of Fargo/Moorhead are really going to loose any sleep over it.

[unbison]

The amount of work done by the 2 cities really has cut lots of time out of the tempoary dike construction.......last year we just got rolling like 3 or 4 days can't remember very little sleep allowed in supervisory roles of going from not working to running around the clock overnight....but we just rolling and then ....boom we were done

[Bison bison]

I understand that Road but none of them are permanent forms of protection we need. You can see the confusion about information out there just on this board and everyone on here is pretty much a genius. :D

The leaders of the community need to beat this to death. If anything is really going to get done I think they need to get this information out there and keep beating a dead horse. Overkill people with information. Yes they have their meetings but they don't show up at the meetings of other groups with other ideas. People can leave those meetings feeling like those ideas are just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive. I've been to some of them and talked to people when they leave. At this rate nothing permanent is going to get done and "if" something happens there are just going to be a bunch of people pointing fingers saying I told you so and in todays world not many people outside of Fargo/Moorhead are really going to loose any sleep over it.

What they need to do is a have a state of the metro meeting on flood protection.

PR the hell out of it. Have it on all the local radio and tv stations.

Do it in February.

Talk about the upcoming flood - height predictions and plans. Talk about medium and long-term plans.

Somebody call up Hizzoner and Karena at the City.

[OrygunBison]

I'd like to see the dike analysis too.

I know a couple of gals I could introduce you to...

[JMB]

One of the biggest contributors to the Red River is the Otter Tail River. I looked up some information and had no idea that the river drains such a large area!

I found this info on Wikipedia:

My parents live on the Ottertail between Fergus Falls and Breckinridge. Most people don't realize that the Ottertail starts just west of Lake Itasca. Every year it was interesting to watch the Corp of Engineers try to time the release of water from Orwell to empty the Lake and Clean the ice out to the river. That being said, my gut feelign is that most of the water that comes down the Ottertail, comes from the valley (Orwell Dam is not in the valley).

In my own opinion I think the current "waffle" that already exists, where each section is dammed in by 4 gravel roads which are the highest points in the country is part of the problem. Every year you can follow the path of the water across the townships as it cuts through the roads on its way to the Red. I feel this creates a cumulative effect of a damn breaking every mile, causing all the water to arrive at once.

Finally, I don't buy the "farmers drainage" is the cause of the problem. My dad has been on the farm for over 70 years. He was there when it was pasture land before any ditches were dug. Yes, there were damp spots in the field here or there, but the valley has less than 1 ft of fall per mile. There was nothing out there to hold any significant amounts of water. Not around him anyways.

[Facts]

oh god, there is NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING west of fargo put it there.

Except that prime "gold coast", $5000/acre, best producing land in the world FARM LAND!

A little heavier texture on the MN side... put it there. ;)

[OrygunBison]

When I was working on my architectural thesis at NDSU, it was just after the monumental floods in the Mississippi River Basin throughout the entire middle section of America in the summer of 1993. My thesis was a building right along the banks of the river just north of Demers in GF...pre-1997 flood. Because I was interested in riverfront development, I wanted to understand the issues surrounding flooding and flood control. For that reason, I wrote a 30-page paper for one of my classes that became part of my thesis.

As I have practiced in the design profession, stormwater has continued to be very important to me, but for somewhat different reasons. I have done my best to remain informed on the topic, at least as it pertains to the types of development that I am involved in.

Trying to provide "flood control" is generally a big part of the problem. Most folks consider the best practices to be "flood management". For the better part of the 20th century, the Army Corp of Engineers did what they could to control rivers. They built levees and dams as a common defense structures for cities. Generally, this did two things - 1.) straightened the river, making it faster and supposedly more efficient in their minds and 2.) destroying all of the riverside wetlands which were vital to the carrying capacity of the river system.

As it relates to that 1993 disaster, I don't remember all of the numbers exactly, but they are roughly as follows:
- The first thing to note is that the amount of rain at that time was not even close to a record. There were some recorded rain amounts from the 1930's that were much greater but resulted in much less flooding. This can be directly tied to the amount of wetlands lost during the time between these great periods of rain.
- In the area most affected by the flooding, there were around 1300 levees in place.
- Of those 1300, 850 of them failed in some way. Once a levee breaks, there is generally no back up system in place.
- One city (I think it was Davenport, Iowa) was lobbied by the Army Corp for decades to build levees in their city and they declined. They just couldn't handle the costs. It was $100M's to build and $1M to maintain it every year. When the floods came, Davenport was all over the news because the river came in with little to no effort. Interestingly, the river receded a few days later with little to no effort as well. When it was all said and done, the damage actually ended up not being really all that bad. For some reason $2M seems to ring a bell but that doesn't seem possible. Regardless, people were really taking a close look at that situation from a disaster preparedness perspective because of the new look at the cost-benefit analysis of flood control methods. FEMA's model began to change.
- One interesting case study is the St. Louis, Mo area. During the floods, St. Louis itself stayed pretty dry. There were large structures in place to make sure that this was the case. Unfortunately, those levees and walls protecting St. Louis also served to create a bottleneck behind them and to accelerate the river on its way out. Imagine a large version of putting your thumb on the end of a hose... Cities up and down stream from St. Louis were devastated. Somewhere, there are some amazing satellite images that exhibited this phenomenon.

In my practice these days, we look at what we can do on a particular piece of property before we start relying on some greater city-provided infrastructure or utility. That goes for energy, sanitary sewers and stormwater mitigation. This is the future of true sustainable design. Everything needs to be looked at in the micro- prior to engaging the macro-. When it comes to energy efficiency, create passive systems and tight building envelopes first, before you spend the money on a really efficient HVAC system. You'll find that you will have less energy waste to overcome in the process, which means that you can downsize all of your systems.

As it relates to the main topic, every single site should look at keeping its water, or at least slowing it down rather than speeding its departure. It the case of farmland, that actually makes the soil more fertile in the 30 year view of things. In a city, that means greater opportunities for lush planters, pervious pavements, more trees and less hard surfaces. If you provide more opportunity for water to take its time and make its way down to the groundwater resource on its own site, you will have less capacity concerns downstream. This is how things are supposed to be in nature.

I designed a senior housing project a couple of years ago out in McMinnville, OR. It was a pretty urban setting in a somewhat small town. At the beginning of the project, the City told us that we needed to connect the project to the city's new stormwater sewer system which was about 500' away from the site. This was because of the very, very poor draining abilities of the soils. The cost of this was about $200K, considering everything that we would be required to do, including a bunch of street work and associated traffic control, etc. Instead, we proposed (and ended up building) a rainwater harvesting system that reclaimed all of the rain into a series of rooftop and plaza rain planters, stored/cleaned the water in a cistern, used the water to flush all of the toilets (54 of them) in the project, and use the rest to irrigate several plaza garden plots where the residents grew their own flowers and vegetables. The system actually cost less than the City's storm connection idea and the residents actually have more amenities in the process. The math says that the site drains less water off of it now than before it was developed.

All of this is my way of saying that bigger isn't necessarily better. It seems that putting all of the eggs in one basket is a pretty short-sighted approach, potentially wreaking havok up and down stream of it. It certainly isn't the best thing to do in a sustainable future. The issues are very complex there and my solution above wouldn't fit perfectly. However, the concept of de-centralizing infrastructure is really gaining some traction globally and perhaps there are some low-tech solutions that would offer much greater benefit for much less money in the long run.

Finally, for those of you that think that there's no correlation between the quick draining farmland and the flooding problem - you are flat out wrong. It is certainly part of the equation.

[Civil06]

That being said, my gut feelign is that most of the water that comes down the Ottertail, comes from the valley (Orwell Dam is not in the valley).

I agree with you there about most of the peak flood water. Orwell is on the edge of the Valley before the terrain flattens out and you just can't physically build effective dams any further downstream. This year, though, there is a base flow coming from the lakes that wasn't there in the past and could stack on top of the water coming from between Fergus and Breck. It will be very interesting to observe.

[Facts]

Now, add in the popularity of drain tile in those fields and the problem just compounds itself.

The problem with this statement is water doesn't move through frozen ground to get to the drain tile. It flow's over the top of the frozen soil, hence the overland flooding problem. By the time the drain tile comes into play, the ground has thawed and the flood was a month ago.

[tony]

Finally, for those of you that think that there's no correlation between the quick draining farmland and the flooding problem - you are flat out wrong. It is certainly part of the equation.

FWIW, sure, draining fields is part of the equation because it affects the timing of when water hits Fargo, but people are making it out the be the #1 cause of flooding as well as an excuse to do nothing.

Precipitation + Saturation + Bad Timing = Horrible flood.

Draining affects the timing. Just like the diversions around West Fargo and Wahpeton. Just like spring rains. Just like building giant dikes to protect Fargo would. Not even sure which of those affects flooding more.

Sure, if Fargo was being built from scratch, we could come up with some pretty clever, less monolithic approaches to handling floods (like having no basements), but that's not the situation we're in.

[CAS4127]

I think you/we are all full of shit and don't have a clue what you/we are talking about when it comes to this matter--just saying. Pure and utter speculation and conjecture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Civil06]

The problem with this statement is water doesn't move through frozen ground to get to the drain tile. It flow's over the top of the frozen soil, hence the overland flooding problem. By the time the drain tile comes into play, the ground has thawed and the flood was a month ago.

Not only that but it lowers the ground water profile in the fall, allowing for more storage in the soil once it thaws.

[lakesbison]

Can we build a huge tunnel under fargo for the water??
then we can open a WATERWORLD!!!

kevin costner would be the mayor then.

[Facts]

I think you/we are all full of shit and don't have a clue what you/we are talking about when it comes to this matter--just saying. Pure and utter speculation and conjecture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, actually I know that water doesn't flow through frozen ground.

And that's a FACT. :nod:

[Civil06]

Can we build a huge tunnel under fargo for the water??
then we can open a WATERWORLD!!!

kevin costner would be the mayor then.

Actually, I posted the answer to that question earlier:

3.4.5.2. Tunneling was eliminated from consideration due to low cost effectiveness. Tunneling would be used to divert flows under the communities; this would function similar to a diversion channel, but underground. It was estimated that at least three 30-foot diameter tunnels approximately 25 miles long would be needed to provide approximately 25,000 cubic feet per second capacity. The cost of such a plan was estimated to be $3.75 billion, which is significantly higher than the cost of a comparably sized diversion channel.

However, Costner for mayor could certainly work.:nod:

[JMB]

I think you/we are all full of shit and don't have a clue what you/we are talking about when it comes to this matter--just saying. Pure and utter speculation and conjecture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is probably the most accurate statement I have ever read on this board. :D

[CAS4127]

No, actually I know that water doesn't flow through frozen ground.

And that's a FACT. :nod:

It doesn't "flow" through any ground, it permeates and filters through it. And, once again, this thread contains nothing but conjecture, speculation and guesses, with a few cut-n-pastes from sources who likewise have no clue, or alleged "original" thoughts that are nothing more than a regurgitation of what someone has read or heard that is likely not accurate. Don't quit your day jobs!!

That's my story and I am sticking to it.:D :nod:

[Civil06]

It doesn't "flow" through any ground, it permeates and filters through it. And, once again, this thread contains nothing but conjecture, speculation and guesses, with a few cut-n-pastes from sources who likewise have no clue, or alleged "original" thoughts that are nothing more than a regurgitation of what someone has read or heard that is likely not accurate. Don't quit your day jobs!!

That's my story and I am sticking to it.:D :nod:

You're not an expert on Darcy's Law, so none of us are?

[OrygunBison]

FWIW, sure, draining fields is part of the equation because it affects the timing of when water hits Fargo, but people are making it out the be the #1 cause of flooding as well as an excuse to do nothing.

Precipitation + Saturation + Bad Timing = Horrible flood.

Draining affects the timing. Just like the diversions around West Fargo and Wahpeton. Just like spring rains. Just like building giant dikes to protect Fargo would. Not even sure which of those affects flooding more.

Sure, if Fargo was being built from scratch, we could come up with some pretty clever, less monolithic approaches to handling floods (like having no basements), but that's not the situation we're in.

Your assumption is that every section of land within 20 miles of the river must drain to the river. That is where I differ. For the cost of the diversion, you could probably provide funding for an enormous number of micro- solutions for farmers and for the city.

Someone mentioned the tunnel idea...we're doing that here in PDX. It is under construction right now. Cost a couple of billion, I think. Interestingly, there has been a major campaign here to decentralize stormwater from the grid at the same time. By the time the "Big Pipe" project is done, there will be no more water to go into it...

[bisonaudit]

Your assumption is that every section of land within 20 miles of the river must drain to the river. That is where I differ. For the cost of the diversion, you could probably provide funding for an enormous number of micro- solutions for farmers and for the city.

This is a fine concept but the logistics and adoption timeline, I suspect, would dwarf the already considerable hurdles facing the diversion.

You'd have to convince/coerce every landowner within 20 miles of the river to adopt a unique and effective solution for their property. That strikes me as a much more difficult and problematic than the diversion.

I think it is great that engineering solutions are evolving in the direction you describe but I see that as an organic long-term process, even once it gets the economic and regulatory incentives it diserves.

[OrygunBison]

This is a fine concept but the logistics and adoption timeline, I suspect, would dwarf the already considerable hurdles facing the diversion.

Since you seem to know so much about the logistics, please tell me what you mean in concrete terms. Also, please tell me how easy you think it will be to secure the right-of-way to build the diversion channel. Neither path would be particularly easy and base on my actual hands on experience working on long-term policy and implementation, I think a micro- solution would actually be less confrontational.

[/QUOTE]You'd have to convince/coerce every landowner within 20 miles of the river to adopt a unique and effective solution for their property. That strikes me as a much more difficult and problematic than the diversion.[/QUOTE]

Less difficult than just taking their land (buying it) for the channel. There will be big fights on this, I am sure. As for "convincing/coercing" every land-owner, this might not be as big of a challenge as you assume if you accompany it with the right education. People generally want to do what is better for the land if given the opportunity at no additional cost. Remember, getting the water off the land quicker is a bad idea when you are looking through a 30-year lens.

[/QUOTE]I think it is great that engineering solutions are evolving in the direction you describe but I see that as an organic long-term process, even once it gets the economic and regulatory incentives it diserves.[/QUOTE]

Organic and long-term, yes. Could be accomplished in 10 years with a proper incentives (and disincentives) plan, though. In a heavily built environment, we have radically changed things here in the last 15 years.

FWIW, I am certainly not truly informed on the channel. I just always look at huge infrastructure projects with a certain amount of skepticism because of what I have been living for the last 20 years. I come from a farming family and also know how things get done and how things can improved. Most farmers that I know want to do right by their land. They work hard at it.

[Bison bison]

This is one of those many situations where rights and democracy suck.

If this were China we would have had a diversion in place in the fall of 1997.

[tony]

This is one of those many situations where rights and democracy suck.

If this were China we would have had a diversion in place in the fall of 1997.

Or they'd have relocated everybody in towns along the Red to big cities so they could assemble stuff like iPods for $.25 a day.

[Bison bison]

Or they'd have relocated everybody in towns along the Red to big cities so they could assemble stuff like iPods for $.25 a day.

exactly.

when are people going to learn that democracy doesn't work?

[mebisonII]

Since you seem to know so much about the logistics, please tell me what you mean in concrete terms. Also, please tell me how easy you think it will be to secure the right-of-way to build the diversion channel. Neither path would be particularly easy and base on my actual hands on experience working on long-term policy and implementation, I think a micro- solution would actually be less confrontational.

You'd have to convince/coerce every landowner within 20 miles of the river to adopt a unique and effective solution for their property. That strikes me as a much more difficult and problematic than the diversion.

Less difficult than just taking their land (buying it) for the channel. There will be big fights on this, I am sure. As for "convincing/coercing" every land-owner, this might not be as big of a challenge as you assume if you accompany it with the right education. People generally want to do what is better for the land if given the opportunity at no additional cost. Remember, getting the water off the land quicker is a bad idea when you are looking through a 30-year lens.

I think it is great that engineering solutions are evolving in the direction you describe but I see that as an organic long-term process, even once it gets the economic and regulatory incentives it diserves.

Organic and long-term, yes. Could be accomplished in 10 years with a proper incentives (and disincentives) plan, though. In a heavily built environment, we have radically changed things here in the last 15 years.

FWIW, I am certainly not truly informed on the channel. I just always look at huge infrastructure projects with a certain amount of skepticism because of what I have been living for the last 20 years. I come from a farming family and also know how things get done and how things can improved. Most farmers that I know want to do right by their land. They work hard at it.

Same could be said to you. What specific kinds of things are farmers going to do to limit that much water? When the area downstream of Fargo floods, there is nothing but water for miles and miles. Literally the only things above water within 2 miles of my family's house are the roads, the 2 houses themselves and maybe a couple neighbors houses, although that gets close. Its not really a flow issue at that point, as there isn't flow...its just a huge lake.

I get what you are saying as far as massive infrastructure not always being the right way, but I don't know what you are thinking for a replacement? Maybe a series of sloughs and reservoirs further out in the water basin? Giant drain plugs straight to the aquafer? I dunno?

[met1990]

What specific kinds of things are farmers going to do to limit that much water?

This is why I don't get the "Waffle Plan" that the EERC in GF is behind. I already "hold" water on my home section. It stays there until the section fills up so fast that the downhill township road washes out and the water moves on to the next section and washes out that downhill culvert. I think something like 32 culverts washed out in my township last spring.

[OrygunBison]

Same could be said to you. What specific kinds of things are farmers going to do to limit that much water? When the area downstream of Fargo floods, there is nothing but water for miles and miles. Literally the only things above water within 2 miles of my family's house are the roads, the 2 houses themselves and maybe a couple neighbors houses, although that gets close. Its not really a flow issue at that point, as there isn't flow...its just a huge lake.

I get what you are saying as far as massive infrastructure not always being the right way, but I don't know what you are thinking for a replacement? Maybe a series of sloughs and reservoirs further out in the water basin? Giant drain plugs straight to the aquafer? I dunno?

Okay, well, I haven't really looked that deep but from the hip...

First - every section of land, no matter where it was and no matter what the slope, would be required to accommodate it's own snow/rain for a 50-year event (pick correct event timeline as a replacement). That means you'd need some storage capacity on every single section. That could come in the form of a big long ditch (tech term bio-swale) along the bottom of the slope and against the dam (raised road) that contains a section on all four sides. If the capacity of the ditch is increased, there might actually be an amount left for irrigation if needed/wanted before the standing water works its way down to the ground water resource as the season progresses.

For water greater than a 50-year event (or whatever number is decided), you provide overflows (a gooseneck pipe sticking up in the air to the desired overflow level and a hard pipe underground) to the river.

Without doing the math (which I am certainly not qualified to do), I am almost certain based on my experience that this would greatly reduce flooding directly next to the river. It is just a larger version of things that I do every day on my work.

I think the first thing to educate people on is the fact that some standing water is not the freakin' problem. In fact, that is precisely what makes the RRV so fertile. (That and LakesBison...) Getting rid of this characteristic over a long time will certainly result in a decline of fertility in the soil.

The other thing that I don't like about really big infrastructure projects are that they most often get farmed out to design teams and construction companies from outside of the region in some big city somewhere. It will be a big project and will justify a big conglomerate to poach it from the locals. If you localize the solution into a bunch of smaller projects, the big companies will be less interested in them and people like UnBison and many other people that you know will benefit from the work.

[BadlandsBison]

Or they'd have relocated everybody in towns along the Red to big cities so they could assemble stuff like iPods for $.25 a day.

China: Envy of the World

[OrygunBison]

http://www.undeerc.org/waffle/overview.pdf

Holy hell. Someone a few posts ago wrote something about the "waffle plan" so I looked it up. This is pretty good. Haven't read it in detail but it looks like it fits in pretty well with what I was saying.

Probably won't get any traction on BV, though, because of the UND connection. It is impossible that they might have a good idea, right???

[roadwarrior]

The waffle plan was recently in the news about the "flawed" assumptions they used.

[bisonaudit]

The waffle plan was recently in the news about the "flawed" assumptions they used.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/304925/publisher_id/1/

bad hydrological assumptions, overestimated benefits.

[OrygunBison]

The waffle plan was recently in the news about the "flawed" assumptions they used.

Looks to me like a work in progress so it wouldn't surprise me if there are some flaws still. Not a reason to scrap it, though, right?

There is some embedded common sense in the plan that usually isn't there in a big infrastructure project. Those projects tend to get lost in the "processes" of how to do something rather than if it ought to be done at all.

[99Bison]

Hey, speaking of preposterous where's the shared plus-minus water plan at?

Since we can't decide if we'll have too much water or not enough lets combine the plans!

Lets make the missouri drinking water route reversable! I bet we could even come up with enough storage places while going half way across the state.

[mebisonII]

Looks to me like a work in progress so it wouldn't surprise me if there are some flaws still. Not a reason to scrap it, though, right?

There is some embedded common sense in the plan that usually isn't there in a big infrastructure project. Those projects tend to get lost in the "processes" of how to do something rather than if it ought to be done at all.

The EERC isn't willing to redo their models, after admitting there are problems, so that's pretty much a dead end. Sounds like Cass is willing to reconsider if they fix their math.

There is some intuitive appeal to it, but if there simple isn't the capacity in the waffle to hold the amount of water necessary to make an impact, then it doesn't hold up.

[rabidrabbit]

Trying to make a waffle out of the pancake Red River Valley? That'll take a lot of dough, and a HUGE waffle maker. ;)

[mebisonII]

We'll make our own flour from the field, and BV has enough hot air to cook it! :nod:


Now, for some strawberries the size of a county....

[OrygunBison]

The EERC isn't willing to redo their models, after admitting there are problems, so that's pretty much a dead end. Sounds like Cass is willing to reconsider if they fix their math.

There is some intuitive appeal to it, but if there simple isn't the capacity in the waffle to hold the amount of water necessary to make an impact, then it doesn't hold up.

It doesn't seem to be an "all-in" model...meaning that its purpose is not intended to completely solve the issue. Or maybe that's the way I'm reading it because I think it would be silly to assume that it could. Certainly, a micro- approach would be coupled with some sort of larger strategy. The overflows need to go somewhere and then you manage that smaller flood near the river more competently.

If the (waffle) area is large enough, it seems like the math would have to work, unless your precip equivalent is greater than the volume capped by the top of the dam (road). How high is the average road as compared to the field next to it. +4', maybe? That equates to a helluva lot of snow, even if you assume 3'/mile slope in the land.

[IzzyFlexion]

I propose a 440 square yard 8 foot deep concrete above ground pool south of Fargo. This area/volume would store 400 million gallons of water filled by a very short diversion channel.
Stock it with some fish, set up a nice scuba diving training business and problem solved.
Wait.......does 400 million gallons constitute a "drop in the bucket" for RR spring volume flow?
Probably............OK, forget it.:p

[Facts]

It doesn't "flow" through any ground, it permeates and filters through it. And, once again, this thread contains nothing but conjecture, speculation and guesses, with a few cut-n-pastes from sources who likewise have no clue, or alleged "original" thoughts that are nothing more than a regurgitation of what someone has read or heard that is likely not accurate. Don't quit your day jobs!!

That's my story and I am sticking to it.:D :nod:

Oh CAS... there you go, trying to "Stanzi up" the situation again :D .
Actually, water flows*. By definition the word flow* means when any volume of fluid moves through a passage of any given size. Filtration (which doesn't occur in frozen soil anyways) "filters" out everything but the water (still water flowing*), but if the soil is saturated (field capacity) no movement (flow*) takes place at all, then you get surface runoff (flow*).

Go ahead now, "permeate" your way out of this one! :D ;)

[JMB]

I propose a 440 square yard 8 foot deep concrete above ground pool south of Fargo. This area/volume would store 400 million gallons of water filled by a very short diversion channel.
Stock it with some fish, set up a nice scuba diving training business and problem solved.
Wait.......does 400 million gallons constitute a "drop in the bucket" for RR spring volume flow?
Probably............OK, forget it.:p

Actually down by Tintah, MN they have something similar to this built (North Ottowa Project). Except the walls are higher and it covers about 3 square miles. The interesting thing is how they fill it. Since it is in the glacial lake bed, there is a diked in drain that runs in from the "beach" a few miles to the east. I believe it is in the Mustinka River drainage basin, which flows into Lake Traverse then up the Bois de Sioux River to Breck-Whap.

[Bison bison]

I propose a 440 square yard 8 foot deep concrete above ground pool south of Fargo. This area/volume would store 400 million gallons of water filled by a very short diversion channel.
Stock it with some fish, set up a nice scuba diving training business and problem solved.
Wait.......does 400 million gallons constitute a "drop in the bucket" for RR spring volume flow?
Probably............OK, forget it.:p

This is genius.

[Bison"FANatic"]

It doesn't seem to be an "all-in" model...meaning that its purpose is not intended to completely solve the issue. Or maybe that's the way I'm reading it because I think it would be silly to assume that it could. Certainly, a micro- approach would be coupled with some sort of larger strategy. The overflows need to go somewhere and then you manage that smaller flood near the river more competently.

If the (waffle) area is large enough, it seems like the math would have to work, unless your precip equivalent is greater than the volume capped by the top of the dam (road). How high is the average road as compared to the field next to it. +4', maybe? That equates to a helluva lot of snow, even if you assume 3'/mile slope in the land.

Maybe the waffle just counters the rise downstream that a diversion would cost. Then you wouldn't have flood out Oxbow and everything south and thus keep them from fighting Denny's Ditch.

[CAS4127]

Oh CAS... there you go, trying to "Stanzi up" the situation again :D .
Actually, water flows*. By definition the word flow* means when any volume of fluid moves through a passage of any given size. Filtration (which doesn't occur in frozen soil anyways) "filters" out everything but the water (still water flowing*), but if the soil is saturated (field capacity) no movement (flow*) takes place at all, then you get surface runoff (flow*).

Go ahead now, "permeate" your way out of this one! :D ;)

If what you "say" is accurate, then we are back to my position that large "legal drains" come into play when it comes to Red River flooding. We came full circle--how's that for "permeating" my position within this thread/concept??!!:nod: :D

[Facts]

If what you "say" is accurate, then we are back to my position that large "legal drains" come into play when it comes to Red River flooding. We came full circle--how's that for "permeating" my position within this thread/concept??!!:nod: :D

Well-permeated... well-permeated indeed. You must get paid to argue for a living! :D Actually if you could use the word permeate in some settlement or courtcase sometime and post an excerpt on BV... It'd make my day.

ps. i never mentioned legal drains, only drainage within a frozen field ;)

[bisonmike2]

However, the article went on to say that the north end of the valley was still rebounding from where the weight of the glacier had compressed the earth's crust.

I remember DP Schwert saying the same thing in my freshman geology class. I thought he even said that in a 1,000 years or so without man-made interference the river will stop flowing north and eventually pool toward the northern end of the valley and create a lake. He also said that if you move to the pacific northwest you are an idiot because in our lifetime there will be a major volcanic event that will significantly affect life in that region.

http://www.rollogrady.com/wp-content/themes/widgetimgs/tmyk.gif

[tony]

I remember DP Schwert saying the same thing in my freshman geology class. I thought he even said that in a 1,000 years or so without man-made interference the river will stop flowing north and eventually pool toward the northern end of the valley and create a lake. He also said that if you move to the pacific northwest you are an idiot because in our lifetime there will be a major volcanic event that will significantly affect life in that region.


I remember a certain major volcanic event in the Northwest that even effected Mandan (Mount St. Helens blowing its top.) I suppose he is talking about something even more major? Yikes. Wonder what he'd say about people living in Japan?

When I move to a volcanic area (even a place like Denver), I plan on buying a bunch of respirators like the ones when I used to wear when my nickname was "Knuckles" and I worked removing asbestos (plus a bunch of filters.) :)

http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/product/3M-6000-Series-Half-Facepiece-Asbestos-Abatement-Respirator-Assembly.html

I always get a kick out of people who say, "Why do people live in Fargo when it floods?" I always ask, "Well, where should they move to?" and then proceed to list the natural disasters that could befall the place they suggest. I mean, a flood in the valley is a disaster but if they keep the basic infrastructure intact, it's really not that bad when it comes to natural disasters. Moreover, a flood is largely preventable (unlike other disasters like earthquake, hurricane, tornado, volcanic eruption,terrorist attack, or war.)

[backpages]

I remember a certain major volcanic event in the Northwest that even effected Mandan (Mount St. Helens blowing its top.) I suppose he is talking about something even more major? Yikes. Wonder what he'd say about people living in Japan?

When I move to a volcanic area (even a place like Denver), I plan on buying a bunch of respirators like the ones when I used to wear when my nickname was "Knuckles" and I worked removing asbestos (plus a bunch of filters.) :)

http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/product/3M-6000-Series-Half-Facepiece-Asbestos-Abatement-Respirator-Assembly.html

I always get a kick out of people who say, "Why do people live in Fargo when it floods?" I always ask, "Well, where should they move to?" and then proceed to list the natural disasters that could befall the place they suggest. I mean, a flood in the valley is a disaster but if they keep the basic infrastructure intact, it's really not that bad when it comes to natural disasters. Moreover, a flood is largely preventable (unlike other disasters like earthquake, hurricane, tornado, volcanic eruption,terrorist attack, or war.)

Granted, we live on an ancient lake bed; a lake bed whose soil feeds the country – if not the world. It’s well worth the risks.

[OrygunBison]

Our main disaster which is ongoing here in the Pacific Northwest is all of those assholes moving up from California. That, too, seems to be unavoidable.

[IzzyFlexion]

[QUOTE=bisonmike2;465913]I remember DP Schwert saying the same thing in my freshman geology class. I thought he even said that in a 1,000 years

Looking ahead, I bet we'll be in an FBS football conference by then and we'll all be able to have back to back weekend celebrations in conjuntion with the SHAC groundbreaking ceremony.

[roadwarrior]

Sandbag operations start Feb 14th in Fargo.

[spelunker64]

Sandbag operations start Feb 14th in Fargo.

I remember Denny last year saying, We can handle this ourselves. I let him :nod:

[HandoEX]

Went out to a buddy's place in Oakport over the weekend. They have a big dyke that circles the entire development. It's about 75% done and they'll just fill in the rest when the flood hits. I guess it's good to 43 1/2. I am sure that takes some of the heat off the residents out there. My buddy lost his basement two years ago and just finished redoing it.

[Hammerhead]

It might take longer than 1,000 years. The current rate of rise at Hudson Bay is about 4.3 feet per century and Lake Winnipeg is roughly 200 ft lower than Fargo.

https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/ndnotes/Rebound/Glacial%20Rebound.htm



I remember DP Schwert saying the same thing in my freshman geology class. I thought he even said that in a 1,000 years or so without man-made interference the river will stop flowing north and eventually pool toward the northern end of the valley and create a lake. He also said that if you move to the pacific northwest you are an idiot because in our lifetime there will be a major volcanic event that will significantly affect life in that region.

http://www.rollogrady.com/wp-content/themes/widgetimgs/tmyk.gif

[Hammersmith]

The article in the Forum was talking hundreds of thousands of years, not hundreds. The rebound in the northern valley is basically complete, with the current rise measured in millimeters or fractions of millimeters per decade. According to a 1994 masters thesis(seems to be the best/only scholarly study on the topic), it seems an interesting thing happened in regards to the final 40m of rebound. After the glacier receded, the valley was not able to rebound completely due to the weight of the water of Lake Agassiz. This left a depression of about 38m. But over the course of the centuries, about 40m of sediment was deposited on the lake floor, filling out the depression. Since this sediment weighs approximately the same as the water that used to submerge it, the rebound is suspended. The only way to complete the last of the rebound would be to remove all the sediment(40m of it), which would then allow the earth to rebound the last 38m. Simple math says this would actually result in a deeper river valley by 2m.

So, no reversal of the Red is going to happen before the next ice age.


http://geothunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Eric_C_Brevik_Isostatic_Rebound_in_The_Lake_Agassi z_Basin_Since_The_Late_Wisconsinan.pdf

[Da Bison]

Went out to a buddy's place in Oakport over the weekend. They have a big dyke that circles the entire development. It's about 75% done and they'll just fill in the rest when the flood hits. I guess it's good to 43 1/2. I am sure that takes some of the heat off the residents out there. My buddy lost his basement two years ago and just finished redoing it.

So.....does she walk around all day and night???:D

[Da Bison]

So.....does she walk around all day and night???:D

PS I think the PC term would be lesbian:D

[roadwarrior]

The City of Fargo website has a map showing where water would be at different levels:

http://gis.cityoffargo.com/FargoFloodStages/FargoFloodApp.html

Click on "Flood Stage", then you will see a bar with the water level. Drag the level to the desired height, then zoom into your property.

If you zoom close enough, it actually shows every building. You can then click on "Property Info", then click on an individual property, and it will tell you how that property is affected.

[duluthbison]

All I can say is this flood better not hit while the schools are out on spring break or you can kiss the metro good bye for awhile!

[spelunker64]

Saw the map of the Oxbow to Comstock area if the new proposed diversion and flood gate go in, looked pretty ugly

[tony]

Saw the map of the Oxbow to Comstock area if the new proposed diversion and flood gate go in, looked pretty ugly

Yeah, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) article made it sound like it would be pretty bad because they'd pool the water up south of Fargo to delay it getting into the diversion. I think that they want to do that no matter what path the diversion takes because mitigating the downstream effects is more costly.

Think they mentioned of pooling the water south of Oxbow but there were significant downsides to that too. No easy answers, unfortunately.

[spelunker64]

Yeah, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) article made it sound like it would be pretty bad because they'd pool the water up south of Fargo to delay it getting into the diversion. I think that they want to do that no matter what path the diversion takes because mitigating the downstream effects is more costly.

Think they mentioned of pooling the water south of Oxbow but there were significant downsides to that too. No easy answers, unfortunately.

Yeah, it pretty much backed up in all the drainage ditches to about Wolverton

[sambini]

Sandbagging operations start monday. At Sandbag central..

[duluthbison]

Yeah heard on the news today that 3,000 tons of sand was delivered today. Can't wait to start shoveling it.....

[chuckles]

What is the total sandbag count at currently? As in, what did we have stored up from last year?

It's certainly a good thing they are starting the operations earlier this year because they are going to need it. The drive and desire to volunteer to fill bags is going to be even weaker than last spring. 3 years in a row now, people are tired and fed up with the flood drama. They will be fortunate to have enough people to run the spiders. It wouldn't surprise me to see headlines next week reading 'Sandbagging operations shut down due to lack of volunteers.' Until the threat is real (and not just NWS talk) and people see the river overflow its banks (as we did in 2009), there will be a lackluster flood fight.

[roadwarrior]

I think they have over 300,000 sandbags leftover from last spring stored somewhere.

The city has actively been talking to large businesses in town to allow a small portion of their employees to leave for a few hours to help out with the production of bags. Also, I am sure the cass county jail will provide volunteers as well.

[BadlandsBison]

I would not mind a 3 week spring break again. Let's not get carried away with the early sandbagging:)

[runtheoption]

I think it is going to flood.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/309006/

[MNLonghorn10]

nws sucks ass @ their job

[duluthbison]

What is the total sandbag count at currently? As in, what did we have stored up from last year?

It's certainly a good thing they are starting the operations earlier this year because they are going to need it. The drive and desire to volunteer to fill bags is going to be even weaker than last spring. 3 years in a row now, people are tired and fed up with the flood drama. They will be fortunate to have enough people to run the spiders. It wouldn't surprise me to see headlines next week reading 'Sandbagging operations shut down due to lack of volunteers.' Until the threat is real (and not just NWS talk) and people see the river overflow its banks (as we did in 2009), there will be a lackluster flood fight.


This should update itself too

http://www.inforum.com/dynamic/full/png/2011/02/17/20110217sandbags.png

[TheBisonator]

This should update itself too




http://www.inforum.com/dynamic/full/png/2011/02/17/20110217sandbags.png


That scale looks like the fundrasing total for the SHAC...

[Twentysix]

That scale looks like the fundrasing total for the SHAC...

Were filling bags of money now? So hamburgler can get into it? I think not!

[IzzyFlexion]

The lovely Stephanie Abrams on the Weather Channel this morning hosted a featuring midwest flooding forecast threat.
At the end of the piece she focused on the Red and other river in the upper plains and said (paraphrasing) "Of course all of these affected rivers flow south." She was tying everything together blaming the Red, et al. for Mississippi River problems approaching St. Louis.
I couldn't get riled up about it because she's so damn cute.

[UTH]

It just hit me - Why isn't this thread in the Watering Hole?

[lakesbison]

No shit. All flood threads to watering hole...can I get an amen?

[Bison bison]

The lovely Stephanie Abrams on the Weather Channel this morning hosted a featuring midwest flooding forecast threat.
At the end of the piece she focused on the Red and other river in the upper plains and said (paraphrasing) "Of course all of these affected rivers flow south." She was tying everything together blaming the Red, et al. for Mississippi River problems approaching St. Louis.
I couldn't get riled up about it because she's so damn cute.

Good point.

I can't believe that academic journals are now taking this approach.

I actually got a review back from one that said, "Your approach is flawed and your results suspect. Please send picture with future submissions otherwise quit wasting our time."

I sent them a picture of Lake's mom. Now, not only will they not let me submit articles, they cancelled my suscription!

[sambini]

No shit. All flood threads to watering hole...can I get an amen?

Amen+++++++++++++++++

[DjKyRo]

Good point.

I can't believe that academic journals are now taking this approach.

I actually got a review back from one that said, "Your approach is flawed and your results suspect. Please send picture with future submissions otherwise quit wasting our time."

I sent them a picture of Lake's mom. Now, not only will they not let me submit articles, they cancelled my suscription!

Wait a second. Academia just hit you with "pics or gtfo?" And they say internet society never matches that of reality!

[roadwarrior]

I could almost guarantee Chapman never did this:


Dean Bresciani, the president of North Dakota State University, gave President’s Day a new twist today when he lent a hand at Sandbag Central.

[NDSUFan_Sav]

I could almost guarantee Chapman never did this:


football team is also helping for 4 hours today

[coldspot]

I could almost guarantee Chapman never did this:

the sand bags weighed more than chapman.

[tony]

See any legislators out there?

[coldspot]

See any legislators out there?

they're all busy sandbagging in bismarck.

[Tatanka]

they're all busy sandbagging in bismarck.

http://www.lolblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/seal.jpg

[sambini]

I could almost guarantee Chapman never did this:

Hats off to NDSU athlete,students,and coaches+++++

[Bison"FANatic"]

NDSU got it done yesterday. Largest production day this year.:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: The metro area thanks you.

[tjbison]

Hats off to NDSU athlete,students,and coaches+++++


NDSU got it done yesterday. Largest production day this year.:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: The metro area thanks you.

Where is the fishwrap story on this??? Oh wait yeah it was a POSITIVE thing NDSU and its athletes did.........how could I be so foolish to think they would recognize them



BTW I looked online and couldn't find anything I apologize if there was something about it

[CAS4127]

Where is the fishwrap story on this??? Oh wait yeah it was a POSITIVE thing NDSU and its athletes did.........how could I be so foolish to think they would recognize them



BTW I looked online and couldn't find anything I apologize if there was something about it

There was in the actual paper, but only a short reference to the Bison FB players coming in to assist last evening, but a larger story about NDSU and MSUM students volunteering during the day.

[runtheoption]

My wife and I were there yesterday. We went there expecting it to be very slow, and were suprised by what we saw when we walked in. The response by the NDSU students and staff, especially given it was a holiday, was very impressive. It was cool to see Bresciani and Bucky working along with all of us "commoners". The Greeks (good job Theta Chi's, my old house!) and NDSU athletics were well represented. In the 4.5 hours we were there, I saw most of the wrestling team, and I believe many members of the softball and soccer teams.

[BadlandsBison]

Football team was there at about 3:30 or so along with some coaches.

[MNLonghorn10]

Where is the fishwrap story on this??? Oh wait yeah it was a POSITIVE thing NDSU and its athletes did.........how could I be so foolish to think they would recognize them



BTW I looked online and couldn't find anything I apologize if there was something about it

to be honest....outside of a small clipping on page 4 in the sports section...does anyone really care?

"oh my, did anyone see jose fill that sandbag @ 4:58...his shovel technique was crazy good. its nice to see him working on it during the off season"

[BigBison]

I dont know about the paper but both KFGO and WDAY had good things to say about the college students and NDSU athletes, though out the day on their radio programing.

[Grizzled]

Where is the fishwrap story on this??? Oh wait yeah it was a POSITIVE thing NDSU and its athletes did.........how could I be so foolish to think they would recognize them



BTW I looked online and couldn't find anything I apologize if there was something about it

I honestly don't think this is newsworthy. Any one in the community can go fill sandbags and I don't think any of them expect an article in the paper when they do.

Nice work by all students and staff that where there, not just athletes and coaches.

[roadwarrior]

WDAY video clip:

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/44093/group/homepage/

[Tatanka]

WDAY video clip:

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/44093/group/homepage/

Excellent.

[TheBisonator]

Here's a stupid suggestion that I had, but I'm sure has been answered before: Why not pay some people good money for a few months to fill up 4 million quality-grade sandbags (maybe made of fiberglass, or some good weather-resistant material), then use them for floods, then store them in some climate-controlled warehouse for most of the year?? Then if you need to make some more, say, some of them wore out or busted, I dunno, like a few hundred thousand more, just hire some people to make them, like during the summer.

Then you always have several million sandbags ready to go.

Is there a reason they can't be pre-stored, or do they have to be fresh?? Maybe get NDSU to research a new kind of object that can be made cheaply and economically that will do the same thing as a sandbag and can be stored in a warehouse??

Just wondering.

[56BISON73]

Here's a stupid suggestion that I had, but I'm sure has been answered before: Why not pay some people good money for a few months to fill up 4 million quality-grade sandbags (maybe made of fiberglass, or some good weather-resistant material), then use them for floods, then store them in some climate-controlled warehouse for most of the year?? Then if you need to make some more, say, some of them wore out or busted, I dunno, like a few hundred thousand more, just hire some people to make them, like during the summer.

Then you always have several million sandbags ready to go.

Is there a reason they can't be pre-stored, or do they have to be fresh?? Maybe get NDSU to research a new kind of object that can be made cheaply and economically that will do the same thing as a sandbag and can be stored in a warehouse??

Just wondering.

I think if you look at what is highlighted it should answer your question.

[Tatanka]

I think if you look at what is highlighted it should answer your question.

Should , yes. Want to start a pool?

[56BISON73]

Should , yes. Want to start a pool?


I wouldnt take action on that with YOUR money.:D

[TheBisonator]

I think if you look at what is highlighted it should answer your question.

Is giving somebody a job a hard thing to do now??:confused: :confused:

And if thousands of people can make a few million sandbags in a month's time during a crisis, then why not just hire some construction crew (Hell, hire some illegal Mexicans!) to work 40-hour weeks for a year or so making them??

I think "illegal Mexicans" is the key piece of the puzzle here...

[56BISON73]

Should , yes. Want to start a pool?

Ok you win.

[Tatanka]

Ok you win.

Was there any doubt? :D

[Bison"FANatic"]

I think about 300000 were saved from last year that were not uses. The bags break down with ultraviolet light so they were kept in doors. As for using the bags again I do believe the are considered" toxic" once used and the sand is not even suppose to be used with anything that you could come in contact with it. Probably do to raw sewage that is dumpped into rivers during floods and from animal waste that is also in the river from flooded lands. So they would somehow have to be sanitized.

[tjbison]

I think about 300000 were saved from last year that were not uses. The bags break down with ultraviolet light so they were kept in doors. As for using the bags again I do believe the are considered" toxic" once used and the sand is not even suppose to be used with anything that you could come in contact with it. Probably do to raw sewage that is dumpped into rivers during floods and from animal waste that is also in the river from flooded lands. So they would somehow have to be sanitized.

Yes once bags have been placed they can not be used again, the sand inside however can be reused for base material for roads etc..... I believe Cass County uses theirs on the roadways during the winter

[Hammersmith]

I think about 300000 were saved from last year that were not uses. The bags break down with ultraviolet light so they were kept in doors. As for using the bags again I do believe the are considered" toxic" once used and the sand is not even suppose to be used with anything that you could come in contact with it. Probably do to raw sewage that is dumpped into rivers during floods and from animal waste that is also in the river from flooded lands. So they would somehow have to be sanitized.

And sometimes in basements when the owners of the property forgot to inform the city of the strength of the floor. Oops.

[unbison]

Yes once bags have been placed they can not be used again, the sand inside however can be reused for base material for roads etc..... I believe Cass County uses theirs on the roadways during the winter

Cass county made a huge blunder in 2009 they put that huge sand pile up in their yard in west Fargo they piled it up so high it shifted the ground and wrecked the sewer line....... I have never seen such a dramatic failure in the dirt here in Fargo was actually kinda of cool the sand that was piled on top of the ground actually worked it's way 9 or 10 ft into the ground

[tony]

Cass county made a huge blunder in 2009 they put that huge sand pile up in their yard in west Fargo they piled it up so high it shifted the ground and wrecked the sewer line....... I have never seen such a dramatic failure in the dirt here in Fargo was actually kinda of cool the sand that was piled on top of the ground actually worked it's way 9 or 10 ft into the ground

A. That's freaking cool!
B. Somebody might want to let Joel Heitkamp* know about this because he seems to think that the ground by the river would support dikes tall enough to protect Fargo from a 45' flood when, in fact, dikes like that would collapse, sink into the ground, and possibly burst into flame (which renders them relatively ineffective.)

* I've been listening to Heitkamp lately - trying to figure out if he's really part of the crusade to keep Fargo-Moorhead from getting permanent flood protection.

[sambini]

UNBISON I saw on the news they were building some dikes. Oak Grove are i think you guys back to work for the flood?

[TbonZach]

A. That's freaking cool!
B. Somebody might want to let Joel Heitkamp* know about this because he seems to think that the ground by the river would support dikes tall enough to protect Fargo from a 45' flood when, in fact, dikes like that would collapse, sink into the ground, and possibly burst into flame (which renders them relatively ineffective.)

* I've been listening to Heitkamp lately - trying to figure out if he's really part of the crusade to keep Fargo-Moorhead from getting permanent flood protection.

They told Heitkamp that he was daft to build a dike there, but he built it anyway just to show them. It sank into the ground. So he built a second one. That sank into the ground. So he build a third one. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the ground. But the fourth one stayed up.

[BadlandsBison]

They told Heitkamp that he was daft to build a dike there, but he built it anyway just to show them. It sank into the ground. So he built a second one. That sank into the ground. So he build a third one. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the ground. But the fourth one stayed up.

Ah, good eye Tbon. I see what he did there.

[lakesbison]

Unbison is on da grind already!!

[unbison]

UNBISON I saw on the news they were building some dikes. Oak Grove are i think you guys back to work for the flood?

Yes we gonna start up by longfellow today or tomorrow

[BigBison]

UNBISON I saw on the news they were building some dikes. Oak Grove are i think you guys back to work for the flood?

That was Industrial Builders back in Oak Grove, South River Road, and soon to be in Southwood Drive. Everything is getting built to a 44 foot river level. It seems like by the time they would build a diversion we wont need it anymore because will have everything with clay dikes.

[IzzyFlexion]

Since it moves so slowly, does the Red, at any point along it's route completely freeze through it's entire depth during a "normal" temp winter? If it runs into northern ice early in the season it seems as though it would/could but I just don't know.

[roadwarrior]

Since it moves so slowly, does the Red, at any point along it's route completely freeze through it's entire depth during a "normal" temp winter? If it runs into northern ice early in the season it seems as though it would/could but I just don't know.

I think the answer is no.

[IzzyFlexion]

I think the answer is no.

Thanks. Just have often wondered about that.

[roadwarrior]

Thanks. Just have often wondered about that.

We would be in tough shape if it froze. Our water supply comes directly from the river.

[IzzyFlexion]

We would be in tough shape if it froze. Our water supply comes directly from the river.

Mmmm....Red River water...http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4v1ESLm8m6E/SZDMuA31EMI/AAAAAAAAATU/_2z3qf934uA/s320/drooling_homer-712749.gif

[roadwarrior]

The volunteers filled the 1,000,000th sandbag today at sandbag central! Only 2,000,000 to go.

[sambini]

Hats off to the volunteers.

[BigBison]

In the coming weeks the City Of Fargo will be building many clay levees all over the city. From north of County 20 to south of 52nd Ave.

[Grizzled]

The volunteers filled the 1,000,000th sandbag today at sandbag central! Only 2,000,000 to go.

I was there today when they made the announcement at about 3:00. It was actually pretty exciting. UND had some football players come down today. I shared a section of the spider with them. Pretty nice guys. It was good to see that after 4:00 when they where most nervous about voluteers all spiders where running at full speed. Like Sambini said, thank you to everyone for all the work.