US Bank Plaza Site proposals

[TheBisonator]

Hey all, Kilbourne Group, the investor for the US Bank Plaza site on Broadway, just posted pics of all 160 proposals for the site. Some are better than others. The link is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/56362657@N05/sets/72157625490317012/

This is my favorite one. 25 STORIES, BITCH!!! (Flickr doesn't allow hotlinking): http://www.flickr.com/photos/56362657@N05/5225417945/sizes/l/in/set-72157625490317012/

[ndsubison1]

hellz yeah i always wanted fargo to have a skyscraper

[EndZoneQB]

hellz yeah i always wanted fargo to have a skyscraper

We have some smaller stuff homie. It's hard to build them here because caissons have to be sunk into the soil to hit bedrock. I think it's roughly around 5 stories needs this done.

[BigDeal]

We have some smaller stuff homie. It's hard to build them here because caissons have to be sunk into the soil to hit bedrock. I think it's roughly around 5 stories needs this done.

Question for us non-engineers...

25 stories is a fairly good sized building. About how far would you need to go dig down assuming the soil was stable? How much difference would it be to build in Fargo?

[tjbison]

Here are the winners of the contest, both designs tied for first. These are not a for sure build yet ast the Kilbourne Group has 3 yrs to purchase and develop the site, I'll be anything it becomes a gay strip mall or a parking ramp and nothing cool like these.

"ebb and flow":

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1ebb.jpg

"Fargo 365":

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1365.jpg

[EndZoneQB]

Question for us non-engineers...

25 stories is a fairly good sized building. About how far would you need to go dig down assuming the soil was stable? How much difference would it be to build in Fargo?

You have to anchor it on bedrock, so I think Fargo is like 180-200 feet? I read it awhile back, but can't remember exactly. Most places have bedrock MUCH closer to the surface.

[Tatanka]

You have to anchor it on bedrock, so I think Fargo is like 180-200 feet? I read it awhile back, but can't remember exactly. Most places have bedrock MUCH closer to the surface.

Truth. To build the Scheels building they used dozens of caissons 135 ft+ down to bedrock. Downtown bedrock might be even deeper

[99Bison]

You have to anchor it on bedrock, so I think Fargo is like 180-200 feet? I read it awhile back, but can't remember exactly. Most places have bedrock MUCH closer to the surface.

This sounds right, from raddison building.

[Bisonguy]

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/fargo_geology/caissons.htm for anyone interested in Fargo's caissons.

[EndZoneQB]

Yep, it's basically this reason that we do not have a lot more buildings downtown rising skyward. Not only do we have lots of land sprawl-wise, it doesn't pay to build downtown with height considering the costs. Unfortunate, really. Especially since the downtown area has really been developing lately.

[Bisonguy]

I like the "Vertical Plain" plan better than either of the winners.

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign2nd.jpg

[Tatanka]

maybe they should just put down some red fieldturf and a couple of bleachers.

[MNLonghorn10]

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1ebb.jpg

that cropduster is violating fargos downtown no fly zone!

[OrygunBison]

Building/designing a high rise is complicated stuff but not entirely different in Fargo than in most major cities. Fargo is located in a historic flood plain of the Red River and so there have been historic deposits left from each of these floods making the bedrock WAY beneath the topsoil. Same thing for many cities. Most cities are constructed with some proximity to water. Here in PDX, we have to go down about 60-80 feet, according to where you are in town. That is why you often see subgrade parking in high rises. Since you have to go down so far, you might as well occupy some of that space with something useful. Our high water table in this area causes the subgrade parking to be a little fussy to waterproof it. I would assume that to be the case in downtown Fargo considering the very high content of clay in the soils.

NYC is one of the best places in the world for building high rises because of the proximity of bedrock and water table. The island of Manhattan is basically a big rock outcropping.

In many cities, this is complicated by the recent history (since European settlement) in previous land development. Portland, like a lot of towns, had many dock structures in the river. That riverside development has created layer after layer of fill next to the river. We have to build our high rise buildings locally along the river so that they can compress the soils (read: drop down) 6-12" over the course of 10 years or so. That can wreak havoc on the design and accessibility of the first floor of a building. You might have a sidewalk that slopes away from the building when you initially occupy it but in a few years, that drainage is reversed. It'll make your head explode if you let it.

[bisonmike2]

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1ebb.jpg

that cropduster is violating fargos downtown no fly zone!

I didn't even see that until you pointed it out. I think it's a terrorist from UND's aviation program flying into NDSU's Business building.

[Hammersmith]

Just a little quibble about the caisson/pilings discussion.

Nothing in Fargo goes down to bedrock. The caissons in Fargo are drilled down to the top of the glacial sediments. These sediments are mainly comprised of a mix of rocks, gravel, sand and clay. Because of the mixture, they are stable enough to bear the weight of large structures as long as it's distributed among enough caissons. This band of material is between 100-200 ft thick, and lays on top of the actual bedrock.

surface
20 ft of tan clays
85 ft of gray clays
100-200 ft of glacial sediments (caissons reach the top of this layer)
bedrock (200-300 ft below surface)

http://www.ndsu.edu/fargo_geology/under.htm

[IzzyFlexion]

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1ebb.jpg

that cropduster is violating fargos downtown no fly zone!

Oh, thank God!
I thought it was a god-damn terrorist!

[bisonwest]

Here are the winners of the contest, both designs tied for first. These are not a for sure build yet ast the Kilbourne Group has 3 yrs to purchase and develop the site, I'll be anything it becomes a gay strip mall or a parking ramp and nothing cool like these.

"ebb and flow":

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1ebb.jpg

"Fargo 365":

http://www.inforum.com/media/full/jpg/2010/12/10/medesign1365.jpg

I don't hold out a lot of hope that anything this cool will actually be built either. That 20 story tower will be shrunk to 6 stories, 8 if were lucky. It really never fails. They will find a way to take an awesome concept and "Fargo" it up. It's rather pathetic.

[tony]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5210/5225420917_64af19e887.jpg

Ski jump, anyone?

Might have to have our own contest on Bisonville.

[OrygunBison]

I don't hold out a lot of hope that anything this cool will actually be built either. That 20 story tower will be shrunk to 6 stories, 8 if were lucky. It really never fails. They will find a way to take an awesome concept and "Fargo" it up. It's rather pathetic.

If they are budget conscious at all, they would not build an 8, 9 or 10 story building. That range is a trouble zone for construction costs per square foot in a typical scenario. Once you get to 75 fee tall (above the 6th floor) the building is considered a "high rise" per the building code. The game changes in regards to how you deal with stair towers, fire protection, smoke evacuation, etc. If you barely go above 75', you have to incur all those costs on a smaller buildable area than had you built several additional floors. Up to about 16-20 floors, things can actually get cheaper per square foot the higher you go, provided that you have a local labor pool that is competent (but not union...), proper equipment (think tower cranes and concrete pumping up that high) and a good infrastructure at the ground level in terms of a supportive utility system, a plethora of parking / mass transit and not a whole lot of re-building the city around the structure so that it all works.

Once you get past the whole "holy crap that's a huge project" aspect of high rise construction, it is really not entirely complicated. As with any project, you just need to surround yourself with folks that have been there before and have worked through the technical issues plenty of times.

[bisonaudit]

If they are budget conscious at all, they would not build an 8, 9 or 10 story building.

So, Washington DC's legal limit of 160 ft for any new construction in the District is a fairly bad idea from an economic perspective then?

[BlueBisonRock]

So, Washington DC's legal limit of 160 ft for any new construction in the District is a fairly bad idea from an economic perspective then?

Economic perspective in Washington DC seems to be an oxymoron.

[EndZoneQB]

Isn't there also a height restriction for downtown Fargo based on the airports runway configuration?

[CAS4127]

Isn't there also a height restriction for downtown Fargo based on the airports runway configuration?

Call the Radison and ask--they've got 18 floors, right?

[tony]

Isn't there also a height restriction for downtown Fargo based on the airports runway configuration?

Does North Dakota have any law against a building being taller than the State Capital?

If not, I'm sure the Legislature would drop everything to write one. :)

I can hear Heitkamp's angle, "I'm good buddies with Denny Walaker but, gosh darn it, a building taller than the state capital? I hate to say it, folks, but that's just not right. I know Fargo thinks it's some kind of city but when you start getting over 30' tall, then you are messing with the natural order of things and yer gettin' a little too big for yer britches, don't ya know. So my question is, and I know I'll take a lot of heat for this from bigwigs because I'm just a little guy who doesn't speed on my daily commute or nothing unlike some Fargo folks who think they are above the law, but when do we just stop and say, enough is enough? You don't need tall buildings, Fargo. I'm sorry, but ya don't, and we don't want you bringing down the wrath of God upon us all just because you're Imperial Cass County."

[runtheoption]

Does North Dakota have any law against a building being taller than the State Capital.

If not, I'm sure the Legislature would drop everything to write one. :)

I think the proposed legislation is that all buildings must be at least one foot lower than The Ralph.

[Bison"FANatic"]

and no deeper than the bunker

[OrygunBison]

So, Washington DC's legal limit of 160 ft for any new construction in the District is a fairly bad idea from an economic perspective then?

Not at all. You missed the point entirely. From a building code perspective, you have to pony up for certain upgrades once you are above 75'. Through the economy-of-scale principal, you want to maximize the gross building area that pays for these upgrades, making it cheaper per square foot of building built. Building a new structure barely over 75 feet would not be taking advantage of the steep costs associated with the high rise construction requirements. My point was that a 7, 8 or 9 story building would generally be more costly per square foot than a 12 or 16 story building. I was countering someone else' point that the local conservative nature would turn a cool 16 story building into an 8 story one. I don't think that would be conservative at all.

Just look around any major city with buildings of the modern era. Most new structures are 6 stories or less.... or 10 stories or more.

[Hammerhead]

Fargo used to have a ski jump up until the 30s. I think the FAA had it torn down since it was a hazard to planes.


As for Fargo's lovely clay, when they dug a hole to create Bluemont Lakes, all of the dirt was moved into one big pile called Mt. Fargo. Eventually it began slumping into the clay and most of it was used to build the flyover ramp at I-29 and I-94.




http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5210/5225420917_64af19e887.jpg

Ski jump, anyone?

Might have to have our own contest on Bisonville.

[Bisonguy]

Fargo used to have a ski jump up until the 30s. I think the FAA had it torn down since it was a hazard to planes.


As for Fargo's lovely clay, when they dug a hole to create Bluemont Lakes, all of the dirt was moved into one big pile called Mt. Fargo. Eventually it began slumping into the clay and most of it was used to build the flyover ramp at I-29 and I-94.


Mount Fargo was awesome! Did anyone actually ever ski on it before the slumpage started? I remember seeing it and thinking that the Dike was a lot steeper.

As far as the old ski jump, there's a photo of it at the Fry'n Pan downtown.

[ndsubison1]

Economic perspective in Washington DC seems to be an oxymoron.

:rofl: :rofl: