Should the Summit extend invites to E. Illinois and UND? [Archive]

NorCalJack

11-07-2010, 01:57 AM

With Patty V's comment today about the interest of the MVFC to go to twelve, would the likely combination be UND and EIU? Now, I am not advocating this right now, but someday we need to bury the hatchet with UND. I am not done gloating yet as I would love to see them whither on the vine in a Montana-less Big Sky. However, in the interest of the state and region, it makes sense to be in a conference with UND for the long term.

When did Patty say the MVFC was interested in expanding to 12 teams? I have not read that anywhere. If you have a link I would appreciate it.

99Bison

11-07-2010, 01:01 AM

When did Patty say the MVFC was interested in expanding to 12 teams? I have not read that anywhere. If you have a link I would appreciate it.

The comment was more along the lines that 10 isn't real good, 11 is bad, but 12 would be fine... Not that 12 is desired, actually 9 is the desired number. But YSU is likely going in the near term, thus back down to perfect 9 again.

DIBISON

11-07-2010, 04:25 AM

I've heard UNO once they make the move, much better travel for both conferences than UND woud be. Why would the Summit want to extend an invite to UND?

BlueLiner

11-07-2010, 05:05 AM

The comment was more along the lines that 10 isn't real good, 11 is bad, but 12 would be fine... Not that 12 is desired, actually 9 is the desired number. But YSU is likely going in the near term, thus back down to perfect 9 again.

Where did you read YSU is getting out of the MVFC?

johnson

11-07-2010, 12:33 PM

When did Patty say the MVFC was interested in expanding to 12 teams? I have not read that anywhere. If you have a link I would appreciate it.
She said that they were talking about a 12 team conference with 2 divisions back in august and that she is still open to the idea on Kolpack and Izzo's show yesterday morning. Tom Douple said that UNO is asking very serious questions about the move up. The show might be available to download on WDAY's website.

EndZoneQB

11-07-2010, 02:41 PM

Where did you read YSU is getting out of the MVFC?

Villanova of the CAA is heading to the Big East in football now too. They were already a member for other sports and football only for CAA. YSU is the outlier in the MVFC. They could keep their Horizon affiliation and move to CAA for football without much of an issue...in direct replacement of Nova. You KNOW this was a big factor in adding USD.

I've heard UNO once they make the move, much better travel for both conferences than UND woud be. Why would the Summit want to extend an invite to UND?

They are going to have to work very hard to move up. The Nebraska constitution specifically states that there can only be ONE D-1 university in the state. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.

WYOBISONMAN

11-07-2010, 02:51 PM

No way to UNO as well. UNO would not at all upgrade the conference.

tjbison

11-07-2010, 02:58 PM

They are going to have to work very hard to move up. The Nebraska constitution specifically states that there can only be ONE D-1 university in the state. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.

Actually Kolpack stated this "rumor" isn't true, I don't know for sure though

MN_BISON

11-07-2010, 03:06 PM

The Nebraska constitution specifically states that there can only be ONE D-1 university in the state.

Are you sure about that?

coldspot

11-07-2010, 03:14 PM

They are going to have to work very hard to move up. The Nebraska constitution specifically states that there can only be ONE D-1 university in the state. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.

I've read that somewhere as well. what about creighton though?

tjbison

11-07-2010, 03:16 PM

I've read that somewhere as well. what about creighton though?

well if true, Creighton would be excluded as they are a private school and not STATE funded. I still call BS on the "law"

MN_BISON

11-07-2010, 03:26 PM

No way to UNO as well. UNO would not at all upgrade the conference.

^^^^^This is 100% correct, UNO adds nothing to The Summit or MVFC. Let them have teh hockies and stay in DII. Hmmmm, maybe another puck U should have throught about that idea as well, just saying.......

roadwarrior

11-07-2010, 04:10 PM

The Nebraska constitution specifically states that there can only be ONE D-1 university in the state.

Tom Douple confirmed on WDAY saturday morning that contrary to rumors, there is NO such limit.

EndZoneQB

11-07-2010, 04:36 PM

Tom Douple confirmed on WDAY saturday morning that contrary to rumors, there is NO such limit.

Nice. Either way, don't think it's going to happen.

Tatanka

11-07-2010, 04:43 PM

No. Next Question.

cbline

11-07-2010, 07:30 PM

Why the hell would the Summit extend an invitation when the sue canceled the site visit just prior to their Bid Sky announcement?!?! The sue have already turned down the Summit, so why is this even being asked??

JackJD

11-07-2010, 08:19 PM

Tom Douple confirmed on WDAY saturday morning that contrary to rumors, there is NO such limit.

The supposed constitutional prohibition doesn't make sense. While I suppose a state can put what it wants into its constitution, it would be highly unusual to put something like that in a constitution.

So...go to the source and read for yourself. Here's a link to the Nebraska Constitution. http://www.neded.org/files/research/stathand/parttwo/nebconst.html

There is a section that deals with the general control of the U of Nebraska but in a quick read-through, I saw nothing addressing sports. Go to CVII-10 in the Nebraska Constitution.

These message boards (not just Bisonville -- ALL message boards) may be the most efficient method of spreading false information yet invented by man.

zooropa

11-08-2010, 02:45 AM

Tom Douple said that UNO is asking very serious questions about the move up.

All I can say is if they do, they'd better spend a mother-lovin' fortune on their basketball program because that is the ****only**** shot they've got.

Heck. I'd argue that they should drop football if they go D-1. They are already grossly non-compliant with the proportionality test of Title IX.

The_Sicatoka

11-08-2010, 03:01 AM

They mentioned both UNO and St. Clown, er, Cloud State while on WDAY on Saturday.

Welcome to the new and improved NCC. ;)

aces1180

11-08-2010, 03:02 AM

They mentioned both UNO and St. Clown, er, Cloud State while on WDAY on Saturday.

Welcome to the new and improved NCC. ;)

What's wrong with that? The NCC was a pretty fine conference back in the DII days...Hell, your own AD thought it was necessary to run it after UNC, NDSU, SDSU and Morningside left it.

zooropa

11-08-2010, 03:29 AM

Welcome to the new and improved NCC. ;)

And, of course, Idaho State is better than every ex-NCC school because it's farther away, right?

TheBisonator

11-08-2010, 04:07 AM

Didn't und just get invited to the Big Sky?? Am I missing something here?? Did I just black out for several weeks??

TheBisonator

11-08-2010, 04:09 AM

They mentioned both UNO and St. Clown, er, Cloud State while on WDAY on Saturday.

Welcome to the new and improved NCC. ;)

St. Cloud's athletic program is broke as a two-cent nickel up a hobo's dumper. They still don't know if the will keep football. They will not make such a move for a LONG time. Ever read the NSIC forum on the D2Messageboard?? They are having MAJOR fiscal issues there.

WYOBISONMAN

11-08-2010, 04:21 AM

What's wrong with that? The NCC was a pretty fine conference back in the DII days...Hell, your own AD thought it was necessary to run it after UNC, NDSU, SDSU and Morningside left it.

We sure as heck didn't make the jump to DI to play with the likes of St. Cloud and UNO. We don't need schools like that in the Summit. If that happens Sic will come over and give us shit....and we will just have to take it. St. Cloud.....and UNO would be terrible additions.

WYOBISONMAN

11-08-2010, 04:22 AM

And, of course, Idaho State is better than every ex-NCC school because it's farther away, right?

I would rather be playing Idaho State than St. Cloud or UNO....:hide:

TheBisonator

11-08-2010, 04:27 AM

I would rather be playing Idaho State than St. Cloud or UNO....:hide:

St. Cloud and UNO don't have the money for it. Don't worry, they won't be making such a move.

zooropa

11-08-2010, 04:35 AM

I would rather be playing Idaho State than St. Cloud or UNO....:hide:

Way I see it, if UNO is spending D-1 money on D-1 facilities with D-1 expectations from coaches and students, it doesn't matter if they're ex-NCC or not. They're D-1.

Who are we as NDSU and SDSU fans to set these schools apart from all other NCC schools, as though only NDSU and SDSU have a future in D-1?

If they spend the money and hold their personnel accountable, they can make a success of it.

If, on the other hand, they're beholden to the irrevocable trust of a dead Nazi and can be cowed by the bluster of a few donors, if they're incapable of sensing the passage of time and opportunity, if they're half-heartedly pursuing the D-1 agenda, well, they deserve to be in a conference that spans just under half the lower 48.

WYOBISONMAN

11-08-2010, 04:45 AM

Way I see it, if UNO is spending D-1 money on D-1 facilities with D-1 expectations from coaches and students, it doesn't matter if they're ex-NCC or not. They're D-1.

Who are we as NDSU and SDSU fans to set these schools apart from all other NCC schools, as though only NDSU and SDSU have a future in D-1?

If they spend the money and hold their personnel accountable, they can make a success of it.

If, on the other hand, they're beholden to the irrevocable trust of a dead Nazi and can be cowed by the bluster of a few donors, if they're incapable of sensing the passage of time and opportunity, if they're half-heartedly pursuing the D-1 agenda, well, they deserve to be in a conference that spans just under half the lower 48.

I sure as hell would rather see UND than pick up second tier commuter schools in the conference.

tony

11-08-2010, 04:48 AM

I sure as hell would rather see UND than pick up second tier commuter schools in the conference.

Me too. It's bad enough inviting schools where hockey is the #1 priority but it'd be worse yet to invite ones with a relatively recent history of budget problems and expect them to double their budgets.

WYOBISONMAN

11-08-2010, 04:57 AM

Me too. It's bad enough inviting schools where hockey is the #1 priority but it'd be worse yet to invite ones with a relatively recent history of budget problems and expect them to double their budgets.

I would be shocked if either came up with the cash to do this, but if they did make the jump I would hope we could avoid them like the plague.

zooropa

11-08-2010, 04:59 AM

I sure as hell would rather see UND than pick up second tier commuter schools in the conference.

I don't think either school is very attractive. UNO because of its revenue problems (less than 5k at football games, less than 1k at basketball games), and UND because, well, there isn't an aspect of this nickname and D-1 move that they've handled well.

Maybe you could combine UND money with UNO vision, and get UNDO.

BTW: UNO is a Tier 1 school, independent of UNL.

The_Sicatoka

11-08-2010, 08:40 PM

We sure as heck didn't make the jump to DI to play with the likes of St. Cloud and UNO. We don't need schools like that in the Summit.

But that's who the Summit has talked with.

Can Morningside and Augustana be far behind? :D

zooropa

11-08-2010, 08:44 PM

But that's who the Summit has talked with.

Assume the worst: NDSU bussing like 8 hours to play UNO.

That's still better than chartering a flight to play Portland State--a school of similarly dubious athletic credentials that is significantly more isolated from UND.

NDSUstudent

11-08-2010, 09:04 PM

Sac St, Portland St, NAU, EWU, WSU, ISU and SUU are all pretty much SCSU and UNO level schools.

Hammersmith

11-08-2010, 11:12 PM

But that's who the Summit has talked with.

Can Morningside and Augustana be far behind? :D

They've also talked with UALR. They've got to be number one on the Summit's list*.

*Well, the realistic list.

lakesbison

11-08-2010, 11:22 PM

answer is NO.

answer to uno, eiu, scsu NO.

bincitysioux

11-10-2010, 12:16 AM

Hell no, keep them in the SKY....

I agree!

+++++++++++++++++++++

bincitysioux

11-10-2010, 12:36 AM

.............. there isn't an aspect of this nickname and D-1 move that they've handled well.

Don't know what we could have done differently with the nickname............it was all in the hands of the State Board of Higher Education. It didn't help that for some reason North Dakota was the only school on the NCAA's "hostile and abusive" list that required the consent of two tribes to continue the use of Native American imagery.

As far as the "DI move", our university seems to be handling it just fine. Our football team is bad this year. Last season we finished 2nd in the GWC, which had the 4th highest conference GPI in 2009. We got our asses handed to us by NAIA Sioux Falls............any other recent transitioning teams get smacked by a sub-DI school during "the move"? Women's basketball has been solid. Volleyball currently has a higher RPI than all but two Summit schools. Seems that many of our sports are getting lots of TV time, albeit not by teh microwaves. We secured conference affilitation in Year 3 of the transition, just like the xDSU's did.

Oh, what's the point?

:banghead:

lakesbison

11-10-2010, 01:25 AM

exactly. cya.

gotts

11-10-2010, 04:09 AM

exactly. cya.

"lakesbison from nine feet.

Here comes the putter throw!

Wait, he's restrained himself. Maybe this is a new lakesbison."

zooropa

11-10-2010, 04:33 AM

it was all in the hands of the State Board of Higher Education.
Right. UND could have *easily* thrown in the towel at any point in time during the negotiations. The AD and pres. telling the SBoHE that they wanted nothing further to do with the nickname would've ended it right then and there.

It didn't help that for some reason North Dakota was the only school on the NCAA's "hostile and abusive" list that required the consent of two tribes to continue the use of Native American imagery.

There are 35 recognized SIOUX tribes in existence, with 17 in the US. There are more Sioux living in SD and Minnesota than in North Dakota, and not by a small amount.

UND got off easy.

As far as the "DI move"

Yes. Let's talk about the D-1 move. Let's talk about trashing Douple for requiring a resolution to the nickname (e.g. dropping the nickname). Let's talk about how UND presently has no baseball conference, possibly no softball conference, and a gigantic and soon to be gutted all-other-sports conference (Montana is gone. It's just a question of time).

A conference about which SiouxSports.com is terribly misinformed: The Big Sky has never had multiple bids, and the first round winner's share (Montana in 2006) will have vanished before UND gets even a revenue sharing check. A conference that was basically the same as the Summit last year, but with a gigantic footprint that *unlike the Summit* is getting BIGGER.

Let's talk about calling a press conference to trash NDSU for going D-1 (USD never did that). And let's talk about the AD whining because Douple ignored a membership application.

UND is in a less than ideal situation, and it is entirely of UND's making.

bincitysioux

11-10-2010, 06:25 AM

Right. UND could have *easily* thrown in the towel at any point in time during the negotiations. The AD and pres. telling the SBoHE that they wanted nothing further to do with the nickname would've ended it right then and there.

So we agree.........at least you are aware of that much, that the SBoHE was controlling the process.

Good.

There are 35 recognized SIOUX tribes in existence, with 17 in the US. There are more Sioux living in SD and Minnesota than in North Dakota, and not by a small amount.

UND got off easy.

There are ~107,000 enrolled members of Sioux in the U.S. There are ~105,000 enrolled members of Chippewa in the U.S...................

Seems like CMU is the one that got off easy.

Let's talk about the D-1 move. Let's talk about trashing Douple for requiring a resolution to the nickname (e.g. dropping the nickname).

On his very finest day, Douple is inept at best. The nickname issue was "resolved" in 2007.

Let's talk about how UND presently has no baseball conference,

Baseball is in the Great West.

possibly no softball conference

The Big Sky will begin to sponsor softball in 2012.

....and a gigantic and soon to be gutted all-other-sports conference (Montana is gone. It's just a question of time).

I missed that press release.

A conference about which SiouxSports.com is terribly misinformed: The Big Sky has never had multiple bids, and the first round winner's share (Montana in 2006) will have vanished before UND gets even a revenue sharing check. A conference that was basically the same as the Summit last year, but with a gigantic footprint that *unlike the Summit* is getting BIGGER.

I'll agree with you again that the Big Sky is much "bigger" than the Summit........

Let's talk about calling a press conference to trash NDSU for going D-1 (USD never did that). And let's talk about the AD whining because Douple ignored a membership application.

Yeah..........none of that ever actually happened, but whatever turns your crank...................

UND is in an ideal situation, and it is entirely of UND's making.

Fixed it for ya..........

BisoninNWMN

11-10-2010, 11:31 AM

So we agree.........at least you are aware of that much, that the SBoHE was controlling the process.

Good.

There are ~107,000 enrolled members of Sioux in the U.S. There are ~105,000 enrolled members of Chippewa in the U.S...................

Seems like CMU is the one that got off easy.

On his very finest day, Douple is inept at best. The nickname issue was "resolved" in 2007.

Baseball is in the Great West.

The Big Sky will begin to sponsor softball in 2012.

I missed that press release.

I'll agree with you again that the Big Sky is much "bigger" than the Summit........

Yeah..........none of that ever actually happened, but whatever turns your crank...................

Fixed it for ya..........

Ideal......really??

Every single conference game, match, meet will have to take a charter flight somewhere. The only bus rides will be any games played against NDSU/SDSU/USD......and how many of those can you schedule in one year.....OOC games......:( :( :(

The Big Sky is not ideal.....it was your only option....period.

How much is a charter??........30-50K?? Very expensive travel budget.

NorthernBison

11-10-2010, 12:25 PM

Don't know what we could have done differently with the nickname............it was all in the hands of the State Board of Higher Education.

Here's the answer: A real working relationship could have been forged with the tribes 20 or 30 years ago. The arrogance and stupidity of the Administration and many boosters is what eventually brought the nickname down.

Think I'm wrong?

I remember a conversation I had with three co-workers in the late 80's or possibly 1990. It was right after a demonstration had made the news in GF about opposition to the nickname. None of my co-workers were UND grads but they were ALL anti-PC and could go on a rant that would make SDBison proud. I expressed the opinion that UND needed to make a "deal" with the Sioux because this was not going to go away. Their only chance of winning in the end was to have STRONG and VOCAL support from the Tribes themselves. Basically, cut them in on the profits from use of the name.

My co-workers looked at me like I had horns. My response was that only the Tribes could make this go away.

Now, if a green young 20 something kid with not a lot of world experience could be so right about what was going to happen 20 years later, why couldn't the geniuses who were running things at UND figure it out? Simple. They were too pig headed, arrogant, and possibly beholden to Ralph to manage the situation properly.

MN_BISON

11-10-2010, 01:06 PM

It seems to me that bincitysioux has been taking spin classes from his good buddy Star2City and I'm not talking about the kind on a stationary bike. Oh well, I guess whatever works for you bin. You forgot to mention that UND is in a premier conference now, isn't that like point number one on the information czars new talking points. Premier conference, have another one boys and keep telling yourself that because one day you might even believe it. ;) :bong:

zooropa

11-10-2010, 02:11 PM

There are ~107,000 enrolled members of Sioux in the U.S. There are ~105,000 enrolled members of Chippewa in the U.S...................

Seems like CMU is the one that got off easy.
The standard, in fact, was identical across the board. Get approval of indians in your state. CMU did it, UND whined and whined and whined and did nothing. Oh, no wait, they DID do something. They filed an expensive lawsuit and lost. THEN commenced the doing of nothing.

On his very finest day, Douple is inept at best.
I can't remember the last time Douple had to correct a public statement a few hours after making it ("Nobody's leaving the Big Sky"), or the last time he announced a new conference member before everything was signed and delivered ("USD is coming!!"). Also, Douple just stuck Fullerton with an academically suspect geographic outlier that he'd been trying to lose for *years*.

The nickname issue was "resolved" in 2007.
No it wasn't.

There was no long-term resolution short of dropping the nickname. The fact that you recognize this by putting "resolve" in irony quotes speaks volumes.

Baseball is in the Great West.
If that is acceptable for baseball, why wasn't UND content to leave all its sports in that conference.

The Big Sky will begin to sponsor softball in 2012.

Somebody should tell the Montana State AD. Oh wait, somebody did. Mick Garry, a reporter for the Argus. Yeah, Montana State doesn't sponsor softball, but you'd think decisions about which sport to sponsor would be communicated to *all* ADs, or maybe even more appropriately, the ADs would be involved in the discussion to begin with.

I missed that press release.

If you think Montana is staying FCS, you probably would've bet money on NDSU and SDSU staying D-2 back in 2000.

I'll agree with you again that the Big Sky is much "bigger" than the Summit........

Historically and recently the conferences are basically equivalent (NCAA tournament appearances, wins, etc.).

Even comparing MVFC to Big Sky football championships is instructive, as Montana has exactly ONE national championship in football.

Therefore, you have a conference with a significantly higher travel budget that has accomplished almost the same things as the Summit. Again, tell me how the Big Sky is better?

Yeah..........none of that ever actually happened, but whatever turns your crank...................
Did UND or did UND not call a press conference and say, essentially, "we never want to play NDSU again"?

Did Brian Faison state that a letter of application to the Summit was ignored, last year? Putting Faison in company with Utah Valley's AD, in disclosing conference negotiations to the press?

lakesbison

11-10-2010, 02:40 PM

Zoo for your own sanity, stop. Yours and Ndsu's facts, aren't accepted up.there,.even though we're right.

Bison Dan

11-10-2010, 02:56 PM

Fact is Fullerton got schooled by Douple. Fullerton is his rush to add teams for the maybe departing BSC schools didn't make UND/USD a package deal. Now und is on a island and everyone in the BSC wants them out. The Summit unloaded a school no one wanted to the BSC and got USD in the deal. WIN-WIN for the Summit and no so much for the BSC.

tony

11-10-2010, 04:13 PM

Some interesting thoughts from Tom Douple:

http://www.argusleader.com/article/20101110/SPORTS0203/11100308/1002/SPORTS

Q. It seemed clear that you had a vision to add the four Dakota schools to serve as cornerstones of the league. That didn't happen because North Dakota went with the Big Sky, canceling your site visit. Any regrets about that?

A. I just wish we would have had the opportunity to work with UND and help solve their issues, but we didn't get that opportunity and it's their decision. We wish them all the best.

One thing I've never understood is that the spin on USD not joining the Big Sky is that somehow the Summit, USD, Tom Douple, Patty Viverito, and/or NDSU did something underhanded. It was the Big Sky that was trying to poach Summit League members (including USD) not the other way around.

As for inviting UND and EIU - it's not the time yet. UND will incur a $1 million penalty for leaving the Big Sky if the Sky disapproves. Give it a couple years and see if both UND and the Big Sky are satisfied with each other. Sure, I know UND folks are saying that the travel budget is no big deal but, in my opinion, that's ridiculous. It should be obvious to anybody who knows how to work a calculator that having travel expenses around $1 million more than any other Dakota university is not insignificant. Moreover, Big Sky members might find they can't afford the added expense of getting to Grand Forks, especially given that they have no real travel partner. If it works for both parties, bully for them. If not, then let the talks begin.

rabidrabbit

11-10-2010, 04:26 PM

EIU may not be interested in leaving the OVC either. There needs to be mucho work by the Summit, especially on the MVFC and EIU to make this work.

UND did themselves no favor by cancelling the Summit visit. UND taking that unilateral move definitely created the opportunity for USD to go Summit, and get the MVFC to render the quick, single, invite to USD. UND allowed themselves to be well played by USD.

A final outcome, should MT leave, may be for UND to become a FB only member of the BSC, and Summit for the rest. Other than FB, Summit has all the sports that UND has in other leagues. In swimming, UND would REALLY push Oakland for the conference title.

Regarding baseball, watch SUmmit invite SUU, UND, UNC to play as associate members.