Jack Handy's Deep Thoughts (Offensive Cord.)

[fbmind]

With all the talk about Coach Vigen being the problem with the offense, I tried to think of a team that, personnel wise, reminded me of this year's team. The answer I came up with was the 2005 Bison. For those who don't remember, here's a quick recap:

The starting quarterback that year was the magic man himself, Steve Walker. He was a sophomore who had started a few games as a freshman. His backup was Ryan Parsons, a redshirt freshman. As you can see, an identical situation to what the Bison entered this year with.

At running back, Kyle Steffes was a junior and a proven back with the only other proven commodity behind him being Cinque Chapman. Steffes was a more proven and in my mind a better back than DJ McNorton, but that team, like this year, was pretty thin at the tailback spot.

At Receiver, Travis White was lost for the year and Marques Johnson missed most of the year with various injuries. So, the Bison were stuck with really only one good receiver, which was redshirt freshmen Kole Heckendorf. However, the Bison were talented at tight end with AJ Cooper and Andy Delabarre. Again, almost identical to this year's team with one good wideout and a couple of good veteran tight ends.

So, there's a quick rundown of the personnel.

Now, more to the point of this thread. For those of you who remember, that was not a fun team to watch offensively. Due to the lack of talent at the receiver position, the Bison used 2 tight ends a majority of the time and rarely used more than 2 wideouts. They were a run oriented team (roughly 65% of their plays).

That year, there was much complaining about that team being boring, predictable and questions as to why NDSU did not use more 3 and 4 wide receiver sets. In fact, Kolpack asked Bohl that question and the response was something along the lines of you have to have the talent to do it and we don't. Again, very similar to this year.

Statistically, the team was not impressive (much like the current team). Walker only completed 55% (low like this year) of his passes for the season (not good in a west coast system) and threw only 14 TD passes in 11 games. Heckendorf was the leading receiver with 37 catches for the year, followed by Cooper with 24 and Johnson with 20 (very poor numbers, like this year).

As a team, they only averaged 345 yards of offense a game, which is only 30 yards more than this year's team.

And while they did average 29 points/game which is 9 better than this year (significant), in their 4 losses that year they scored a total of 37 points (9 points/game), including a shutout to end the year at Southern Illinois.

So what's my point?

No matter who the offensive coordinator is he has to have talent to be creative and unpredictable. There has to be talent to allow for a wide open offense. And this year's team, just like last year's, and just like the team in 2005, has a talent deficiency.

Do people on here truly think that Coach Vigen doesn't want to do more or is not capable of coming up with more creative play calling? He's been here forever and saw what this offense could do in year's like 2006/2007 when the personnel is there. He helped create the game plans those years. Also, he was the quarterbacks coach, working with Steve Walker and last time I checked that worked out ok.

This year's team has a redshirt fresh QB, uses one RB and has one good wide receiver (Holloway). Guys like Mack, Howard, etc. should be nothing more than a #4/5 WR on a good D1 football team. Yet, some of you want to see this wide open attack with Jensen gunning the ball to Reed Rugby and D. Lang. Wake up, that is utter stupidity.

Especially, when you do have a solid defense. The 2005 team again had a defense very similar to this year's. Both teams gave up around 14 points a game.

So what makes more sense, playing conservatively and relying on your defense, which is the better of the two units (like the Bison did in 2005 and are currently doing), or playing a higher risk style of which you don't have the personnel for.

Like everyone else, I don't like the Bison offense of the last two years. And yes, Vigen probably does deserve a bit of the blame. But the majority of it falls on the piss poor recruiting the Bison had for a few years. If you want to blame anyone, blame Bohl for hiring assistants who could not get out of Fargo fast enough and who's only goal in recruiting was to recruit a new school to move on to.

For the Bison to get back to what we remember a few years ago offensively, there has to be a major talent upgrade, not a coaching change.

[CAS4127]

For the Bison to get back to what we remember a few years ago offensively, there has to be a major talent upgrade, not a coaching change.

Or both!!--just sayin!!

[mgbison]

fbmind - this is probably the post of the year. I take that back. It is the post of the year.

[MinotBison]

I think that team from 2005 turned out pretty well a couple of years later. I believe this team will, too.

[JustinTyem]

fbmind - this is probably the post of the year. I take that back. It is the post of the year.

Ditto - That post may be one of the BEST EVER!!! I'm smarter now just from reading it. Thank You

[CaBisonFan]

For the Bison to get back to what we remember a few years ago offensively, there has to be a major talent upgrade, not a coaching change.

Or...you change the offense in anticipation of the personnel deficiencies. If we have 'running' personnel...then run a run-ning game.

[heckler]

...there has to be a major talent upgrade, not a coaching change.

I think the gophers have been saying this for a few years now

[ndsubison1]

Or...you change the offense in anticipation of the personnel deficiencies. If we have 'running' personnel...then run a run-ning game.

or recruit guys that fit the offense

[99Bison]

One big problem... with this. It assumes people were not complaining. When in fact people were complaining about the play calling in 05, 06, 07, 08, 09 also, it's not new this year. In 06 and 07 miraculous playmaking and defense made up for it.

[EndZoneQB]

One big problem... with this. It assumes people were not complaining. When in fact people were complaining about the play calling in 05, 06, 07, 08, 09 also, it's not new this year. In 06 and 07 miraculous playmaking and defense made up for it.

Yep. Players put the game on their shoulders when it was needed...but we had the talent to not need to do that...we should have been firing all game long. If we could score passing with the game on the line, theres a good chance it was there all game long.

[Tatanka]

We tend to remember all those miraculous comebacks and last-minute heroics and not so much the circumstances that put the team in the position where said comebacks were necessary... Just sayin'.

[Bisonguy]

We tend to remember all those miraculous comebacks and last-minute heroics and not so much the circumstances that put the team in the position where said comebacks were necessary... Just sayin'.


http://thepqnation.com/livingwicked/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/oh_no_you_didnt.gif

[Dabison]

You Hit the nail on the head. That team went 7-4. Could be a possible playoff berth......

[CaBisonFan]

fbmind: I think that this is a excellent, if not outstanding, post. It is well thought out, well written, and has many valid points. Sorry if I'm the devil's advocate in the thread. Didn't mean to rain on the parade. And I hope that your theory proves me to be absolutely wrong....oh yeah...:nod:

reps

[Notorious]

Great post!!.....however, there is some validity to the rebuttals.

Why is there a talent deficiency again though?

[THEsocalledfan]

Like everyone else, I don't like the Bison offense of the last two years. And yes, Vigen probably does deserve a bit of the blame. But the majority of it falls on the piss poor recruiting the Bison had for a few years. If you want to blame anyone, blame Bohl for hiring assistants who could not get out of Fargo fast enough and who's only goal in recruiting was to recruit a new school to move on to.

Best part of your post right here. Let's hope the recruiting is back on track. AND I hope that we can at least be over 0.500 this year. What was the final record for that year? That should be a reasonable target to try to exceed or match.

[THEsocalledfan]

On other deep thought.....is it possible that Bohl got complacent after the two 10-1 seasons? Let his foot of the gas recriuting? Lost his edge as he didn't need to prove Nebraska wrong anymore? Perhaps two years ago woke him up (brought in Jensen and other solid talent), and last year scared the living snot out of him (brought in even better talent)?

If this is true, it will take one more year to turn this ship around. Just utter and complete speculation on my part, by the way. The thing that doesn't add up, though, is I would think it would be easier to recruit as a winner.

[SDbison]

My thoughts:
NDSU's offense has been mostly vanilla since Bohl became head coach.
Walker, through last minute heroics made the 10-1 seasons possible.
The 2005 talent gap with recruits was mostly due to early DI transition.
The 2010 talent gap was mostly due to poor recruiting in prior years.
I don't believe the 2010 talent gap is nearly as bad as 2005's.
NDSU's offense has to change or else most years there will be no playoffs.
There is no excuse for NDSU not getting great recuits and developing them.
I am tired of the Bison playing like crap with the best FCS facilities and fans.
The failures for the past 2.5 years lie with the coaches.
I don't believe Vigen is good enough to be NDSU's offensive coordinator.
I am starting to question Bohl's ability to lead NDSU to the playoffs.
This thread must have been started by someone who really likes Vigen.

[stevdock]

My thoughts:
NDSU's offense has been mostly vanilla since Bohl became head coach.
Walker, through last minute heroics made the 10-1 seasons possible.
The 2005 talent gap with recruits was mostly due to early DI transition.
The 2010 talent gap was mostly due to poor recruiting in prior years.
I don't believe the 2010 talent gap is nearly as bad as 2005's.
NDSU's offense has to change or else most years there will be no playoffs.
There is no excuse for NDSU not getting great recuits and developing them.
I am tired of the Bison playing like crap with the best FCS facilities and fans.
The failures for the past 2.5 years lie with the coaches.
I don't believe Vigen is good enough to be NDSU's offensive coordinator.
I am starting to question Bohl's ability to lead NDSU to the playoffs.
This thread must have been started by someone who really likes Vigen.

SD I agree with most of your thoughts. That last 10-1 season could have easily been 7-4. I'm with you that the talent gap isn't nearly as big as before, but since we are playing in a tougher conference it may look that way some times.

I don't understand why so many people on here agree with one thing, and then one person says the exact opposite accuse that person of really liking that person or being related or whatever. As many have said Vigen's a good guy. I played against him in HS. He played very well for the Bison and has been a good coach for the Bison. What the OP was trying to get at though is also true. It's impossible to run a more wide open offense if you don't have the personnel to do it. We don't have the WR's to be able to open up the playbook more. But the good thing is they are on their way.


One other thing about 2005 to now though for the offense. Can someone remind me what the 05 offensive line was like?? We have always had very good lines, and I'm wondering if the line then was similar to what we have now. Where the potential is there, but it's just not firing like in the past.

[mgbison]

it doesn't matter what offense you run if you execute it. Look at Nebraska. They threw the ball less than 10 times against Kstate. You know Martinez is gonna run cause he can't throw for sh%t, but good luck catching him. Can you imagine all the complaining bisonville would do if we had him as our QB.

We had sucess with veer in the 80's, talk about vanilla. However, i'm sure no one is gonna complain with the results back then.

I do agree we need to make the playoffs by the end of the 2011 season or something needs to change. I'll cross that bridge it we ever get there. There is a lot of season left, and we are still ranked #17.

[Dabison]

Great post!!.....however, there is some validity to the rebuttals.

Why is there a talent deficiency again though?

I think it's about maturity. The 2005 team had all the players that contributed to the 10-1 years but they were young. Heckendorf was a good receiver that year but made lots of mistakes. Same with Joe Mays.

I believe that everyone is thinking the same. We're just a year away from being a great team.

Some recruits pan out and others don't. That's the tough part about recruiting. You never know how a player will develop.

Recruiting for DIAA has to be difficult strictly because you're looking for a DI athlete but it's hard to compete with the FBS schools.

[bisonmike2]

Great post. But I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't actually a Jack Handy's Deep Thoughts.

One of my favorites (not verbatim),

I asked my grandpa one day where babies come from. He said, "Jack, it might be easier if I just showed you." And then we walked out to a pasture on the farm and there in the field were my parents...having sex.

[Notorious]

...and my favorite:

“If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."”

[TransAmBison]

On other deep thought.....is it possible that Bohl got complacent after the two 10-1 seasons? Let his foot of the gas recriuting? Lost his edge as he didn't need to prove Nebraska wrong anymore? Perhaps two years ago woke him up (brought in Jensen and other solid talent), and last year scared the living snot out of him (brought in even better talent)?

If this is true, it will take one more year to turn this ship around. Just utter and complete speculation on my part, by the way. The thing that doesn't add up, though, is I would think it would be easier to recruit as a winner.
He admitted they lost their focus on recruiting...old news.

[CAS4127]

It's impossible to run a more wide open offense if you don't have the personnel to do it. We don't have the WR's to be able to open up the playbook more.

Deduction: Seems we all agree that we have been running the same offensive scheme for the last many, many years. One must then ask, "why in the hell don't we have the personel "to do it"? Ya, guys got kicked off, etc., etc, but, if we are recruiting players to fit our scheme, the the next guy on the depth chart should be able to do it too--right?? Back to the coaching change argument.

[bisonmike2]

...and my favorite:

“If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."”

I don't remember hearing that one before. That's great.

[Notorious]

I don't remember hearing that one before. That's great.

Use that with your little one...it's Parenting 101 ;)

[bisonmike2]

Use that with your little one...it's Parenting 101 ;)

I have been using this one.

“My young son asked me what happens after we die. I told him we get buried under a bunch of dirt and worms eat our bodies. I guess I should have told him the truth - that most of us go to Hell and burn eternally - but I didn't want to upset him.”

[TransAmBison]

So we don't have the personnel? I do agree to a point. So we don't have 4 good wide receivers...but we can still run a four wide set...it will force defenses to plan for something else. Why not make defenses take some extra time to plan for other sets. Who knows...maybe it will give some other guys a chance to shine. Imagine the surprise on the field, on the sidelines, and in the stands if we lined up four wide...

Creative coaching can get minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths. Both our qb's can run the ball...four wide would spread defenders and open things up. Imagine even seeing three wide outs in a bunch formation...everybody would sh## bricks.

It is like throwing deep...even if you don't make it you will force defenses respect the possibility.

What happened to predictibly unpredictible? The plays are in the playbook...why only use them when we are down a ton and have to play mustard, I mean ketchup, I mean...

[Capn_Cat]

fbmind: I think that this is a excellent, if not outstanding, post. It is well thought out, well written, and has many valid points. Sorry if I'm the devil's advocate in the thread. Didn't mean to rain on the parade. And I hope that your theory proves me to be absolutely wrong....oh yeah...:nod:

reps


Quit apologizing, you girl.

:mad:

[OtterTailLakeBison]

The Bison lack a true identity on offense. The system is not West Coast, Erhardt-Perkins or Spread. We and the coaches love to call the current offense a West Coast style offence, but we aren't running it. I understand why a challenge this year with RFr QB and will give Vigen some slack for not having a more complex scheme.

The West Coast offense has many 3 to 5 step drops with slants as a main staple. The receivers are used to catching the ball over the middle in traffic and the QB is used to making some tight throws. In addition the backs catch a lot of passes. We are not running it and don't seem to have the personnel.

In the Erhardt-Perking (think of Parcells,Belichick,Weiss) there is plenty of play action with multiple formations and sets. It can be set up by either the run or the pass, but it is the multiple plays that can be run out of any formation which makes it unique and really a scheme.

Regardless of the system, we have a limited number of plays and we are not executing against these plays. Think of the Packers and their West Coast, how many times do you watch and say that they are going to run a 3 step drop with a 7 yard slant to Driver or Jennings? They run it 5 - 10 times a game with success. But they will run this out of 2 receiver; 3 receiver; 4 receiver; 5 receiver with myriad of TE or RB options.

The problem is not that Vigen and his offense don't run the sames plays, it is because they run the same plays out of the same formations. The only variation is lining up Sigers as slot and then watching him go in motion. But that hasn't been very successful because they run 2 plays out of it.

Hopefully as Jensen matures, Vigen will open up the playbook with multiple formations. The real test will be as the season progresses, will they add formations and we can see Jensen grow. If that doesn't happen then the two years with Mertens and the lack of progress with Jensen means that Vigen has to go. Then Taylor needs to seriously look at Bohl, and if he gives him another year, ensure Bohl brings in a proven OC with a track record on developing a QB.

[56BISON73]

The Bison lack a true identity on offense. The system is not West Coast, Erhardt-Perkins or Spread. We and the coaches love to call the current offense a West Coast style offence, but we aren't running it. I understand why a challenge this year with RFr QB and will give Vigen some slack for not having a more complex scheme.

The West Coast offense has many 3 to 5 step drops with slants as a main staple. The receivers are used to catching the ball over the middle in traffic and the QB is used to making some tight throws. In addition the backs catch a lot of passes. We are not running it and don't seem to have the personnel.

In the Erhardt-Perking (think of Parcells,Belichick,Weiss) there is plenty of play action with multiple formations and sets. It can be set up by either the run or the pass, but it is the multiple plays that can be run out of any formation which makes it unique and really a scheme.

Regardless of the system, we have a limited number of plays and we are not executing against these plays. Think of the Packers and their West Coast, how many times do you watch and say that they are going to run a 3 step drop with a 7 yard slant to Driver or Jennings? They run it 5 - 10 times a game with success. But they will run this out of 2 receiver; 3 receiver; 4 receiver; 5 receiver with myriad of TE or RB options.

The problem is not that Vigen and his offense don't run the sames plays, it is because they run the same plays out of the same formations. The only variation is lining up Sigers as slot and then watching him go in motion. But that hasn't been very successful because they run 2 plays out of it.

Hopefully as Jensen matures, Vigen will open up the playbook with multiple formations. The real test will be as the season progresses, will they add formations and we can see Jensen grow. If that doesn't happen then the two years with Mertens and the lack of progress with Jensen means that Vigen has to go. Then Taylor needs to seriously look at Bohl, and if he gives him another year, ensure Bohl brings in a proven OC with a track record on developing a QB.

And they run the same plays when certain players are substituted. Its like--- OK # 84 just came in we know they run these 4 playes when hes in the game. pretty easy to defend when you narrow it down.

[CAS4127]

If we are talking about this same effin thing after YSU game, I am going to puke footballs, and will be happy pheasant season has opened so I can go holler my ass of at my untrained dog, rather than at the Bison FB team. At least the dog listens occasionally!!

[Tatanka]

If we are talking about this same effin thing after YSU game, I am going to puke footballs, and will be happy pheasant season has opened so I can go holler my ass of at my untrained dog, rather than at the Bison FB team. At least the dog listens occasionally!!

Yes, but who tells who to sit? Yet another perk of hunting... :hide:

[CaBisonFan]

And they run the same plays when certain players are substituted. Its like--- OK # 84 just came in we know they run these 4 playes when hes in the game. pretty easy to defend when you narrow it down.

Like this....:cool:

[ndsubison1]

red zone play calling was questionable at best. we should have won that game handily

[A1pigskin]

What irritates me is when the fans can call the play before the play is ran. I think there has been improvement.

[Herd]

Our offense looked fine yesterday. 4 RB getting carries, all having success. Strong line play, 4-5 receivers catching balls. Good mix of run and pass with strong play calling. Why are we having this conversation?? Two page rants about the offense, after yesterday? Makes no sense to me. And 2005 recruiting discussion, please go see a psychologist and stay off BV for a couple of weeks. I thought the post was a waste of my time personally.


Now the defense is another story, if you'd like to rant about the defense, that would make some sense. They need a week of practice and all the healthy bodies they can find.

[Gully]

Our offense looked fine yesterday. 4 RB getting carries, all having success. Strong line play, 4-5 receivers catching balls. Good mix of run and pass with strong play calling. Why are we having this conversation?? Two page rants about the offense, after yesterday? Makes no sense to me. And 2005 recruiting discussion, please go see a psychologist and stay off BV for a couple of weeks. I thought the post was a waste of my time personally.


Now the defense is another story, if you'd like to rant about the defense, that would make some sense. They need a week of practice and all the healthy bodies they can find.

I would agree that it was better but we were in control of the game in the second half until we went ultra conservative again and started running too much, then we let them back in the game and had to go win the game again.

A step in the right direction though. Maybe as Vigen gets more confidence in the team he'll keep his foot on the gas longer. We really had them off balance for awhile and that's some fun football!

[semobison]

We were leading 28-21, just recovered their fumble at mid field, and we went conservative. You cant sit on a lead against the MVFC teams. It almost cost us. The red zone goal line offense, 3 dives into the middle of the pile? Lets get the killer instinct. Play action on first down was killing them the second qtr, and it set up the run...OK, enough venting, Ill take the W!

[BisoninNWMN]

We were leading 28-21, just recovered their fumble at mid field, and we went conservative. You cant sit on a lead against the MVFC teams. It almost cost us. The red zone goal line offense, 3 dives into the middle of the pile? Lets get the killer instinct. Play action on first down was killing them the second qtr, and it set up the run...OK, enough venting, Ill take the W!


yes....go for the kill!!!!!

Great field position and piss it away......

[Tatanka]

yes....go for the kill!!!!!

Great field position and piss it away......

+ freaking +

At that point, you FINISH THEM.http://www.thecaptainsmemos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/finish-him.jpg

[BisonNeil]

On other deep thought.....is it possible that Bohl got complacent after the two 10-1 seasons? Let his foot of the gas recriuting? Lost his edge as he didn't need to prove Nebraska wrong anymore? Perhaps two years ago woke him up (brought in Jensen and other solid talent), and last year scared the living snot out of him (brought in even better talent)?

If this is true, it will take one more year to turn this ship around. Just utter and complete speculation on my part, by the way. The thing that doesn't add up, though, is I would think it would be easier to recruit as a winner.

That would explain the horrific 2008 class, but how do you explain the sub-par 2005 and 2006 classes?

Last years senior class (2005 recruits) had how many outstanding players/game changers (Paschall JUCO transfer)? Out of this years senior class (2006) only Arndt and Anderson have been consistent, the others not so much. You could probably make the case that the 2007 class had some talent, but there aren't a lot of Jr blowing my doors off talent-wise.

My point is this, the lack of talent over the past few years was not due to complacency after two great 10-1 seasons. I know Bohl uses that as an excuse, and I know Hallstrom and Kolpack have bought into it, but his sub-par recruiting was going on long before the 10-1 seasons. In fact, I think a very strong case can be made that only Bohl's 2004 class was truly of DI quality.

He made serious changes in recruiting philosophies after 2008 and they are working, but I would argue the hole he has dug for himself cannot be filled with only two classes, he needs an above average 2011 and 2012 classes to make the Bison competitive nationally.

[99Bison]

We were leading 28-21, just recovered their fumble at mid field, and we went conservative. You cant sit on a lead against the MVFC teams. It almost cost us. The red zone goal line offense, 3 dives into the middle of the pile? Lets get the killer instinct. Play action on first down was killing them the second qtr, and it set up the run...OK, enough venting, Ill take the W!

Yes, the single most irritating thing of the day... week, month, years.

[ndsubison1]

Our offense looked fine yesterday. 4 RB getting carries, all having success. Strong line play, 4-5 receivers catching balls. Good mix of run and pass with strong play calling. Why are we having this conversation?? Two page rants about the offense, after yesterday? Makes no sense to me. And 2005 recruiting discussion, please go see a psychologist and stay off BV for a couple of weeks. I thought the post was a waste of my time personally.


Now the defense is another story, if you'd like to rant about the defense, that would make some sense. They need a week of practice and all the healthy bodies they can find.

You apparently missed the 2nd half then. But I will obv take the win. Nearly pissed it away though