Big Ten Expansion

[Gully]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/93331029.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DU

Maturi says he'd be shocked but I sense something brewing here. This could set of domino's, opening up spots in the Mountain West and/or WAC. This could be our last/only chance to get into one of those two conferences.

Do you guys think we can afford the move up? We'd have to add what, about 20 fb full rides and an offsetting amount of women's. Would it need to be one for one? Common Hammer, I know you'll know the answer!

[56BISON73]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/93331029.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DU

Maturi says he'd be shocked but I sense something brewing here. This could set of domino's, opening up spots in the Mountain West and/or WAC. This could be our last/only chance to get into one of those two conferences.

Do you guys think we can afford the move up? We'd have to add what, about 20 fb full rides and an offsetting amount of women's. Would it need to be one for one? Common Hammer, I know you'll know the answer!

Dont forget the $$$ penalty to get out of the conference commitment. Plus Iam sure there would be more schollies added to the other sports as well.

[zooropa]

MWC would probably talk to Montana before talking to NDSU, and Montana's silence on FBS questions is telling.

I suspect Montana would go FBS if an opening came up in either MWC or WAC, and of course, they'd be more attractive than NDSU for both conferences.

[Gully]

MWC would probably talk to Montana before talking to NDSU, and Montana's silence on FBS questions is telling.

I suspect Montana would go FBS if an opening came up in either MWC or WAC, and of course, they'd be more attractive than NDSU for both conferences.

I agree with that but I think there will be multiple spots by the time the Big 10, Big 12, and Pac 10 are done expanding.

[Gully]

Dont forget the $$$ penalty to get out of the conference commitment. Plus Iam sure there would be more schollies added to the other sports as well.

I wouldn't think the buyout would be big enough to stop us. Not sure about the other sports.

[roadwarrior]

What sports other than men's golf and baseball aren't at the max scholarships now?

[TheBisonator]

FBS would cost a minimum of 27 extra scholarships. 13.5 extra football and 13.5 womens to offset. Maybe start women's tennis and swimming/diving?? Or maybe women's gymnastics?? College girls in tight leotards doing the splitz?? I'd be there every night if I was a student...

[56BISON73]

What sports other than men's golf and baseball aren't at the max scholarships now?

Football for one. Dont know about the others but If there is that difference from 1-A to AA what about the other sports as well???
I think this is a job for the Hammer.:D

[56BISON73]

I wouldn't think the buyout would be big enough to stop us. Not sure about the other sports.

If I remember correctly I think the buy out was substantial. 250,000 to 500,000????

[TheBisonator]

Football for one. Dont know about the others but If there is that difference from 1-A to AA what about the other sports as well???
I think this is a job for the Hammer.:D

FBS is football designation only. All other sports could stay the same if they wanted to. Heck, NDSU probably has more total sports schollies than a few WAC programs. 76.5 minimum football scholarships to be in FBS. 13.5 added to football, maybe 4 or 5 added to womens golf and start up womens tennis.

I still like the gymnastics idea.:nod:

[TheBisonator]

If I remember correctly I think the buy out was substantial. 250,000 to 500,000????

It was at least half a mill. Probably one football road trip to the Texas Longhorns would offset that cost.

[56BISON73]

It was at least half a mill. Probably one football road trip to the Texas Longhorns would offset that cost.

Lets me know when that game gets scheduled ok.:D

[TheBisonator]

Lets me know when that game gets scheduled ok.:D

I will pay any amount of money to see that game. That and the Winnipeg Jets renaugural game next season.

[MNLonghorn10]

good lord, get this done so texas can get out of the big 12 asap

[Hammersmith]

Football for one. Dont know about the others but If there is that difference from 1-A to AA what about the other sports as well???
I think this is a job for the Hammer.:D

Football is at max scholarships(63) or within a scholie or two due to recruitment or retention issues. Does FBS allow more? Sure, but we're not in FBS. There are no differences in any other sports. It's also not true that we would have to match the increase 1:1 with women's scholarships. Remember that NDSU functions under the Interests and Abilities prong of Title IX; we don't use Proportionality. That being said, NDSU would have to add at least a couple women's sports. Even under the current prong, NDSU is uncomfortably far away from the undergrad m/f ratio. We're safe at the moment because we fund all our women's sports to a high degree, but I doubt our athletic department would want to throw the ratio further out of whack then it currently is. We don't have facilities for tennis(the west courts would have to be rebuilt even if they weren't about to be torn up for the ITF) or swimming(BSA pool isn't regulation and will be removed during the renovation). Equestrian would be a possibility because the Horse Park needs all the help it can get. Tennis would work if we run it from a local fitness center like UND does. S&D will only work if Urban Plains actually builds that aquatics center across the street from the UPC; a long shot at best.

Short answer: don't hold your breath for an FBS move no matter what conference shakeups happen in the next couple years. I wouldn't mind seeing it happen eventually, but this isn't our window.

[Hammersmith]

FBS is football designation only. All other sports could stay the same if they wanted to. Heck, NDSU probably has more total sports schollies than a few WAC programs. 76.5 minimum football scholarships to be in FBS. 13.5 added to football, maybe 4 or 5 added to womens golf and start up womens tennis.

I still like the gymnastics idea.:nod:

We're already at the max there.

[Hammersmith]

It was at least half a mill. Probably one football road trip to the Texas Longhorns would offset that cost.

Pretty sure the total would be one mill. Half mill for the Summit and half mill for the MVFC if NDSU leaves before 2016. I think the contracts were the same: $250k to get in, $500k to leave before 8 years.

[56BISON73]

Football is at max scholarships(63) or within a scholie or two due to recruitment or retention issues. Does FBS allow more? Sure, but we're not in FBS. There are no differences in any other sports. It's also not true that we would have to match the increase 1:1 with women's scholarships. Remember that NDSU functions under the Interests and Abilities prong of Title IX; we don't use Proportionality. That being said, NDSU would have to add at least a couple women's sports. Even under the current prong, NDSU is uncomfortably far away from the undergrad m/f ratio. We're safe at the moment because we fund all our women's sports to a high degree, but I doubt our athletic department would want to throw the ratio further out of whack then it currently is. We don't have facilities for tennis(the west courts would have to be rebuilt even if they weren't about to be torn up for the ITF) or swimming(BSA pool isn't regulation and will be removed during the renovation). Equestrian would be a possibility because the Horse Park needs all the help it can get. Tennis would work if we run it from a local fitness center like UND does. S&D will only work if Urban Plains actually builds that aquatics center across the street from the UPC; a long shot at best.

Short answer: don't hold your breath for an FBS move no matter what conference shakeups happen in the next couple years. I wouldn't mind seeing it happen eventually, but this isn't our window.

Oh Im not holding my breath on the move to FBS but that was the initial discussion on the costs to move up.
Thanks for the info. You are always on top of that stuff!!!

[lakesbison]

If MWC OR WAC HAS A SPOT OR 2 OPEN,,,,,,,,,,+ NDSU DOESNT PURSUE IT.,,,,,THEN SHUT DOWN OUR.ATHLETICS PROGRAM,


MWC/WAC is our #1 chance at being FBS with our peers at wyoming,idaho, colo st,,,etc etc,

ps-road trip to hawaii,nevada vs brookings,cedar falls, carbondale?? duh,yes please!!

[unbison]

If MWC OR WAC HAS A SPOT OR 2 OPEN,,,,,,,,,,+ NDSU DOESNT PURSUE IT.,,,,,THEN SHUT DOWN OUR.ATHLETICS PROGRAM,


MWC/WAC is our #1 chance at being FBS with our peers at wyoming,idaho, colo st,,,etc etc,

ps-road trip to hawaii,nevada vs brookings,cedar falls, carbondale?? duh,yes please!!
womens sports might be able to compete boby big wheels................ 3-8 football team...........i am surprised i am gonna say this basketball team would have a heck of a time............womens volleyball and womens softball no problems.......... u dont like losing and u dont like womens sports ..............so time to find reality foo

[Green-N-Gold]

Aren't their attendance and stadium capacity requirements in FBS football? From what I recall, our current situation means we would fall short of both.

[roadwarrior]

Aren't their attendance and stadium capacity requirements in FBS football? From what I recall, our current situation means we would fall short of both.

Average attendance of 15,000 I think. We would be OK in the dome.

[lakesbison]

wow, how pissed off should we be? in 2008 we were coming off 2 10-1 seasons and BORED with FCS teams and our,basketball team was.stacked and bound for,the big dance, just think if the football team in 08 + 09 had 13-1 seasons, then we'd ALL be begging for FBS . ARGH, WE MISSED OUR,CHANCE,


ps- we could win in MWC/WAC, u better believe that!!

[SDbison]

wow, how pissed off should we be? in 2008 we were coming off 2 10-1 seasons and BORED with FCS teams and our,basketball team was.stacked and bound for,the big dance, just think if the football team in 08 + 09 had 13-1 seasons, then we'd ALL be begging for FBS . ARGH, WE MISSED OUR,CHANCE,


ps- we could win in MWC/WAC, u better believe that!!
Lets do this........if opportunity knocks! FBS will further place NDSU on the map. FCS = old DII.

[SDbison]

womens sports might be able to compete boby big wheels................ 3-8 football team...........i am surprised i am gonna say this basketball team would have a heck of a time............womens volleyball and womens softball no problems.......... u dont like losing and u dont like womens sports ..............so time to find reality foo
Where did you learn to post unbison.........the slickvic school of messageboarding? :D

[Gully]

We can certainly compete in the Mountain West or WAC, no question in my mind. In ALL sports. I'm not saying it will be easy, but we can be very competitive.

[Herd Mentality]

We can certainly compete in the Mountain West or WAC, no question in my mind. In ALL sports. I'm not saying it will be easy, but we can be very competitive.

I concur whole-heartedly.

[TransAmBison]

Lets do this........if opportunity knocks! FBS will further place NDSU on the map. FCS = old DII.
I thought the old DII was pretty good. :hide:

[SDbison]

I thought the old DII was pretty good. :hide:
TransAm you are still living in the past..........

[TransAmBison]

TransAm you are still living in the past..........
How is saying the old DII was good living in the past? I did not say DII is still good. I did not say I wanted to go back DII. I did not say remember when...

I think that is pretty weak argument. So you want to go FBS. Good for you. I see your point of view. I, on the other hand think FCS is a good fit just like the old DII was a good fit at that time. At this time there is no worries about FCS getting watered down or lessening of scholarships so there is nothing that would make FCS go down the same road DII went.

Living in the past...you gotta do better than that.;)

[lakesbison]

Ill trash the FCS all day long Transam. When NDSU had a great team (and they will again soon) the FCS was a joke, you play 3-4 good teams a year (UNI, SIU, FBS TEAM). On a national level you only get recognition for 2 things being in the FCS>

1- beat a notable FBS team (see UM game in 07 + Appy State)

2- Be in the national semifinals/title games (on ESPN)


sorry, but its the truth, we NEED FBS for NDSU and FARGO to be taken seriously on a national level.

[TransAmBison]

Ill trash the FCS all day long Transam. When NDSU had a great team (and they will again soon) the FCS was a joke, you play 3-4 good teams a year (UNI, SIU, FBS TEAM). On a national level you only get recognition for 2 things being in the FCS>

1- beat a notable FBS team (see UM game in 07 + Appy State)

2- Be in the national semifinals/title games (on ESPN)


sorry, but its the truth, we NEED FBS for NDSU and FARGO to be taken seriously on a national level.
There is a big difference in need and want. I need my wife to come home after work to help me with the kids. I want my wife to come home with a couple horny strippers to help with the household "chores".

If you produce the money, they will come.*





*huh, huh, hehehehe, huh, huh.

[SDbison]

How is saying the old DII was good living in the past? I did not say DII is still good. I did not say I wanted to go back DII. I did not say remember when...

I think that is pretty weak argument. So you want to go FBS. Good for you. I see your point of view. I, on the other hand think FCS is a good fit just like the old DII was a good fit at that time. At this time there is no worries about FCS getting watered down or lessening of scholarships so there is nothing that would make FCS go down the same road DII went.

Living in the past...you gotta do better than that.;)
I thought you were going on a another Dr. Seuss rant at first......
You know I am just giving you a bad time. And yes, I know, you and I are on opposite ends of the FBS argument.

[Notorious]

We will have no "agreeing to disagree" on Bisonville. Now, get after each other, and make it personal.

On topic, NDSU is so far from FBS that it's not even funny. Be grateful for the great strides that have been made in the last 5-6 years. We are in a very good place....and the "right" place.

FBS can certainly be a goal, but the leap is nearly impossible at this point.

[BisoninNWMN]

We can certainly compete in the Mountain West or WAC, no question in my mind. In ALL sports. I'm not saying it will be easy, but we can be very competitive.


YES

MAC.....we would also be very competitive right now.....with more $$$$ we would consistently be on top or near the top in most sports.

FBS would be a good goal for Bison athletics.

[OrygunBison]

Ill trash the FCS all day long Transam. When NDSU had a great team (and they will again soon) the FCS was a joke, you play 3-4 good teams a year (UNI, SIU, FBS TEAM). On a national level you only get recognition for 2 things being in the FCS>

1- beat a notable FBS team (see UM game in 07 + Appy State)

2- Be in the national semifinals/title games (on ESPN)


sorry, but its the truth, we NEED FBS for NDSU and FARGO to be taken seriously on a national level.

So, uh, yeah...Lakes, do you really see the MAC/WAC/MWC as being the big time? Don't kid yourself. Nobody outside of Utah or Idaho cares about the MWC and WAC. Most people have never heard of any of the schools in the MAC. While I would love to see the Bison move up, I have no impression that it would be "big time". Do you even know what big time would even be? You are always bringing up the gophers. Sir, that is not big time. There are fewer gopher fans in their entire stadium than what Michigan has in their bathrooms at half-time of an Indiana game.

[TheBisonator]

How is saying the old DII was good living in the past? I did not say DII is still good. I did not say I wanted to go back DII. I did not say remember when...

I think that is pretty weak argument. So you want to go FBS. Good for you. I see your point of view. I, on the other hand think FCS is a good fit just like the old DII was a good fit at that time. At this time there is no worries about FCS getting watered down or lessening of scholarships so there is nothing that would make FCS go down the same road DII went.

Living in the past...you gotta do better than that.;)

I'm gonna have to disagree with the bolded part

1) Schools like App State, Montana, James Madison thinking about FBS moves

2) Schools like Presbyterian, South Dakota, NC Central taking their place

3) A LOT of FCS schools consist of small east-coast private schools that don't really care about winning or big-time football (Fordham, Rhode Island, Wagner, etc.)

4) Only a matter of time until most of the schools say, "Hey, you know, we could get by with 55 scholarships." Then, "50 scholarships." Then, "45 scholarships." Then...

[lakesbison]

ORYGUN. there are plenty of Gopher fans, no worries.

NDSU will never be in the Big 10/12, ACC, SEC, PAC 10. So it doesnt matter, WAC/MWC will be the best we can do, no problem!!

[56BISON73]

Ill trash the FCS all day long Transam. When NDSU had a great team (and they will again soon) the FCS was a joke, you play 3-4 good teams a year (UNI, SIU, FBS TEAM). On a national level you only get recognition for 2 things being in the FCS>

1- beat a notable FBS team (see UM game in 07 + Appy State)

2- Be in the national semifinals/title games (on ESPN)


sorry, but its the truth, we NEED FBS for NDSU and FARGO to be taken seriously on a national level.

Lakes
We have to win on the FCS level first before we can be considered for anything. If we arent taken seriously now we certainly arent going to taken serious with a move to FBS when we cant win our own conference.
One other thing has me confused. What changed your mind about the MAC? Not too long ago you said that they sucked. So why would you want to be in that conference?
Lastly being in the MAC, WAC and MWC is not going to make people take NDSU and Fargo seriously on a national level. Those conferences have as much pizzaz as the FCS.
If you want to be taken seriously one has to be an elite team who takes on all comers and wins. The solitary move to FBS just doesnt make it.

[OrygunBison]

ORYGUN. there are plenty of Gopher fans, no worries.

NDSU will never be in the Big 10/12, ACC, SEC, PAC 10. So it doesnt matter, WAC/MWC will be the best we can do, no problem!!

While I agree with you that MAC/WAC/MWC is the highest level that we will ever likely go, I disagree that this will put us in any sort of national light. Simply, nobody really pays attention to those conferences. Hell, I lived in Michigan for a few years after NDSU and people there thought the MAC was a DII conference. Unless you are an alum, nobody cares.

Attempting to get some sort of national notoriety for our sports is not the right reason to go FBS and leave for a higher conference. The only reason that we should ever move is to more appropriately align ourselves with peer academic institutions.

[Gully]

While I agree with you that MAC/WAC/MWC is the highest level that we will ever likely go, I disagree that this will put us in any sort of national light. Simply, nobody really pays attention to those conferences. Hell, I lived in Michigan for a few years after NDSU and people there thought the MAC was a DII conference. Unless you are an alum, nobody cares.

Attempting to get some sort of national notoriety for our sports is not the right reason to go FBS and leave for a higher conference. The only reason that we should ever move is to more appropriately align ourselves with peer academic institutions.

I don't know that I can agree with that. Boise State, BYU, TCU, Fresno State, Hawaii, Utah. Those schools have received a fair amount of attention and have beat a lot of teams from the major conferences.

I agree that it'll never be like the BCS conferences but I think it's a clear step up from FCS football and a lot of people do know and care about it. After all, didn't Boise State beat Oklahoma in the greatest college football game (arguably) ever played?

No one is saying we're suddenly going to be Florida or Ohio State but what if we could come close to eventually being Boise State? That would be pretty cool.

[DjKyRo]

Hasn't Boise State been in the running for the national title the last two years? Didn't Butler, a Horizon League team, get to the national championship in basketball this year?

[OrygunBison]

I don't know that I can agree with that. Boise State, BYU, TCU, Fresno State, Hawaii, Utah. Those schools have received a fair amount of attention and have beat a lot of teams from the major conferences.

I agree that it'll never be like the BCS conferences but I think it's a clear step up from FCS football and a lot of people do know and care about it. After all, didn't Boise State beat Oklahoma in the greatest college football game (arguably) ever played?

No one is saying we're suddenly going to be Florida or Ohio State but what if we could come close to eventually being Boise State? That would be pretty cool.

Yeah, I hear ya....and yes, it would be pretty cool. My point, though, is that we should only make the move in order to align with peer academic institutions, not to enliven our athletic programs. That is what is more important here. If that takes us to the WAC or MWC, then I think that is great.

[tjbison]

I'd be MORE than happy for a All Sports MVC invite, Travel would blow ass in the WAC or MWC and then 2 time zones to top it

[lakesbison]

NDSU's TRUE PEER INSTITUTIONS SHOULD BE:

Iowa State, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado State, Boise St Missouri

Boise State should be the model.

map of FBS teams: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Cfdia.PNG

map of FCS teams: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Cfdiaa.PNG

[ndsubison1]

I wouldnt be surprised to see Nebraska join the Big Eleven

[Bison bison]

NDSU's peers are western land grant and state universities:S DSU, Montana State, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah State, Colorado State...
are our peers.

With a little luck NDSU could join a modified WAC with many of these schools.

Imagine NDSU, SDSU, Montana State, Idaho, Utah State, New Mexico State, Nevada, etc in a conference. Then complement with an academic/research partnership ala the Big Ten.

It would be beautiful!

[zooropa]

NDSU's peers are western land grant and state universities:S DSU, Montana State, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah State, Colorado State...

At least as far as SDSU is concerned, I think the concept of peer institutions would be 'Middle Border' schools like NDSU, Nebraska, Missouri, K-State and Ok-State--at least as far as the core land grant missions (Ag, engineering, the non MD/JD professions). All six states are fairly well balanced between crops & livestock on the ag side, with similar challenges in rural development (on the professional social sciences side), and environmental sustainability (built environment professions). Maybe you'd toss Iowa State in there, but I see them being more in line with Minnesota/Wisconsin/Illinois/Indiana.

That's how I'd divide it up at least. I think in terms of the land grant mission I don't know that there's a huge footprint of compatible interests between Nevada & NDSU/SDSU, or even necessarily Colorado State/NDSU/SDSU.

Just my two cents.

[Bison bison]

it's not a function of focus, it a function of scale

iowa state, nebraska, and minnesota are in a different league than ndsu - it's not even close.

look at enrollment, research budgets, and stature. ndsu, sdsu, nevada, montana state, new mexico state, utah state, idaho are look a likes.

[TheBisonator]

it's not a function of focus, it a function of scale

iowa state, nebraska, and minnesota are in a different league than ndsu - it's not even close.

look at enrollment, research budgets, and stature. ndsu, sdsu, nevada, montana state, new mexico state, utah state, idaho are look a likes.

My Dream Conference (not in alphabetical order)

North Dakota State
South Dakota State
New Mexico State
Wyoming
Colorado State
Montana
Montana State
Utah State
Idaho
Nevada

This would be an FBS conference.

All more or less are peers of each other.

[zooropa]

it's not a function of focus, it a function of scale

iowa state, nebraska, and minnesota are in a different league than ndsu - it's not even close.

look at enrollment, research budgets, and stature. ndsu, sdsu, nevada, montana state, new mexico state, utah state, idaho are look a likes.

I guess my criteria would be the direction of the research, rather than the scale. Nevada & NDSU might have a similar enrollment and research budget, but how much research in common?