Nickel Trophy casualty of UND nickname situation??

[Swany]

Given the situation surrounding the Fighting Sioux nickname, when the football rivalry resumes, will NDSU and UND continue to play for the Nickel Trophy? I doubt it.

http://www.bisonillustrated.com/s.php?s=168


If the Fighting Sioux nickname is indeed lost to history, which it appears likely, so too goes the Nickel Trophy as a hostile and abusive symbol. Turns out UND losing their nickname is about as funny as a state audit for campus construction projects.

[siouxdgj]

Given the situation surrounding the Fighting Sioux nickname, when the football rivalry resumes, will NDSU and UND continue to play for the Nickel Trophy? I doubt it.

http://www.bisonillustrated.com/s.php?s=168

I doubt it very much also. If the nickname goes, so in all likelihood does the Nickel Trophy thanks at least in part to all the political correctness people at the NCAA and elsewhere. Continuing to play for the trophy if the nickname is lost seems pointless. Also, without approval from Standing Rock, it's likely that continuing to play for the trophy would even further aggravate anti-nickname opponents each time the game were played. Thus, I'm thinking if the nickname goes, so goeth the Nickel Trophy. Sorry.

[aces1180]

We should have scheduled them this year, kicked the hell out of them and taken permanent possession.

[duluthbison]

well isn't gene looking for one more home game........:hide:

[tony]

Uh, I guess I don't see the need to retire the trophy. I've never heard any controversy involving the Indian Head / Buffalo Head nickel itself and that would seem to be the only valid reason to retire the trophy. There is a substantial difference between putting somebody on a coin and using them as a nickname/mascot. Most travelling trophies have no connection to the mascots of the teams involved.

That said, if it makes the UND folks feel good, retire it. We could use a replica of the North Dakota state quarter as the new trophy.

http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.com/images/2006-North-Dakota-State-Quarter.jpg

[Shawn-O]

We should have scheduled them this year, kicked the hell out of them and taken permanent possession.

Wrong answer. The Nickel is for an annual game.

[lakesbison]

Who Gives A ______

[Shawn-O]

Who Gives A ______

You! :rofl:

[lakesbison]

no i dont, i want nothing to do with that racist college & hatefilled fans.

the end

[aces1180]

Wrong answer. The Nickel is for an annual game.

Which you guys ended after 2003.

[ndsubison1]

well isn't gene looking for one more home game........:hide:

they have 11 games

[aces1180]

Truth be told, the Trophy is one of the only reasons I would want to play UND. As a student, I used to love sitting in front of it in the Memorial Union. I got a sense of pride seeing the Bison side displayed, while knowing it covered up the Sioux logo at the same time.

UND took their ball and the Nickel Trophy (which they won fair and sqaure) home when we moved to Division I. It's a shame the rivalry died in the first place.

[VanClubPres]

We can just win it back and take an angle grinder to the side opposite of the Bison.

[ndsubison1]

I personally think Northern Iowa can be become a bigger rival then UND

[Shawn-O]

Which you guys ended after 2003.

Then I guess the trophy has a permanent home.
[/thread]

[Bison Dan]

Then I guess the trophy has a permanent home.
[/thread]

Keep it. I'd say most of the student body doesn't even know about it.

[Spiker]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

[DjKyRo]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

...says the UND fan on an NDSU message board.

[ndsubison1]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

who cares [/thread]

[Bison Dan]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

Then why are you guys begging us for games!! You don't see hardly any NDSU fans looking to play you in anything.

[Facts]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

NDSU leads the series since becoming a UNIVERSITY... by quite alot. :nod: Chalk up those early 1900's wins all you want. Should we talk about football NC's?

[ndsubison1]

NDSU leads the series since becoming a UNIVERSITY... by quite alot. :nod: Chalk up those early 1900's wins all you want. Should we talk about football NC's?

but they've been D1 since 1929

[56BISON73]

Uh, I guess I don't see the need to retire the trophy. I've never heard any controversy involving the Indian Head / Buffalo Head nickel itself and that would seem to be the only valid reason to retire the trophy. There is a substantial difference between putting somebody on a coin and using them as a nickname/mascot. Most travelling trophies have no connection to the mascots of the teams involved.

That said, if it makes the UND folks feel good, retire it. We could use a replica of the North Dakota state quarter as the new trophy.


http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.com/images/2006-North-Dakota-State-Quarter.jpg

To show how crazy all this crap is---The University of Illinois and Northwestern used to play for a travelling peace pipe. That is no more.
The University of Illinois was able to retain its fighting Illini nickname but their mascot wasnt so lucky even though there is NO Illini tribe to vote on the issue.
The Utah Utes was a great example on how the NCAA got their asses handed to them by the State of Utah and the N/A that inhabit the state.

[TheBisonator]

UND leads the total wins in the series quite comfortably and was dominating the series at the end so the Nickel is residing in it's permanent home forever. Next topic please. You need to get over UND.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/Demongo55/Not%20My%20Stuff/imwithstupid3hw.jpg

[DjKyRo]

but they've been D1 since 1929

Yep, and so have Denver, Bemidji St., and Crookston.

[THEsocalledfan]

Uh, I guess I don't see the need to retire the trophy. I've never heard any controversy involving the Indian Head / Buffalo Head nickel itself and that would seem to be the only valid reason to retire the trophy. There is a substantial difference between putting somebody on a coin and using them as a nickname/mascot. Most travelling trophies have no connection to the mascots of the teams involved.

That said, if it makes the UND folks feel good, retire it. We could use a replica of the North Dakota state quarter as the new trophy.

http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.com/images/2006-North-Dakota-State-Quarter.jpg

This has also been my contension. It is a historically accurate depiction of a nickel. I would hope NDSU would help UND stand up to ya hoos that want that to go away.

However, the world of the faculty elite is a very, very scarey place and I am sure they will find a way to make this hostile and abusive, too.

So, my question is why do so many assume it will be retired? I don't follow the logic, honestly, as I am not a faculty elite.

[A1pigskin]

no i dont, i want nothing to do with that racist college & hatefilled fans.

the end


It's all BS all the way around. From NCAA pushing this to now.

[Swany]

Here is the logic behind banning the Nickel Trophy. The Nickel Trophy depicts a Native American on one side. This entire nickname situation has centered around a moniker and logo -- the Fighting Sioux -- that is "hostile and abusive."

As such, allowing any depiction, account, or portrayal of a Native American symbol is by extension hostile and abusive, i.e., all the Sioux logos at Engelstad Arena. To allow a symbol, like the Nickel Trophy, to remain as part of UND's athletic program circumvents the spirit and intent of the settlement agreement reached between UND and the NCAA.

Now, some will argue, including many on this message board, that the Nickel is not affiliated with, nor sponsored by UND, therefore, the NCAA shouldn't be able to touch (ban) it. This is true, but only to a very limited extent. UND implicity endorses the trophy by allowing it to be presented, on the field, to the winner of the Bison-Sioux game at the Alerus Center. To say that UND does not sponsor, or endorse the Nickel Trophy, given it's longstanding history with UND -- and its presentation on the field following the game -- is a very big stretch that simply seeks an end-around the truth.

I'll give you a parallel to put the situation with the Nickel Trophy and its continuation, should the Fighting Sioux name perish, in context. The United States Constitution prohibits the establishment of any official religion in America. Moreover, our jurisprudence over the last two-plus centuries has firmly established a separation between church and state. (Please, for the love of whoever you pray to, save us any diatribes in this forum about the separation of church and state).

As a result, courthouses are not allowed to display copies of the Ten Commandments. Now, those Ten Commandments, in most cases, are not maintained or put up by the court or government. Those Ten Commandments were donated by civic-minded church groups like the Knights of Columbus. However, by allowing the Ten Commandments to be displayed in the government building, i.e., the courthouse, the court, and by extension the state, is tacitly endorsing those Ten Commandments. You cannot circumvent the law by dressing it up in a costume to evade compliance --- a rose by another name would smell as sweet.

This is why the "UND doesn't endorse the Nickel Trophy" logic likely wouldn't pass muster. My guess is that the interested parties would say that the teams continuing to play for the Nickel Trophy violates the spirit, and intent, of UND's settlement agreement with the NCAA. Moreover, in perhaps the understatement of the year, UND and the SBHOE, probably want finality to this whole situation. Allowing the Nickel Trophy to stay keeps that door to the Fighting Sioux and the nickname debate wide open.

If that day does come, and the Nickel Trophy is retired, it would truly be a sad day. To see such a venerated symbol of North Dakota fall quietly by the wayside, and into the dark shadows of history, simply because some miscontrue it as hostile or abusive is, frankly, perverse. In this situation, a Nickel Trophy by any other name would definitely not smell as sweet.

[SDbison]

Here is the logic behind banning the Nickel Trophy. The Nickel Trophy depicts a Native American on one side. This entire nickname situation has centered around a moniker and logo -- the Fighting Sioux -- that is "hostile and abusive."

As such, allowing any depiction, account, or portrayal of a Native American symbol is by extension hostile and abusive, i.e., all the Sioux logos at Engelstad Arena. To allow a symbol, like the Nickel Trophy, to remain as part of UND's athletic program circumvents the spirit and intent of the settlement agreement reached between UND and the NCAA.

Now, some will argue, including many on this message board, that the Nickel is not affiliated with, nor sponsored by UND, therefore, the NCAA shouldn't be able to touch (ban) it. This is true, but only to a very limited extent. UND implicity endorses the trophy by allowing it to be presented, on the field, to the winner of the Bison-Sioux game at the Alerus Center. To say that UND does not sponsor, or endorse the Nickel Trophy, given it's longstanding history with UND -- and its presentation on the field following the game -- is a very big stretch that simply seeks an end-around the truth.

I'll give you a parallel to put the situation with the Nickel Trophy and its continuation, should the Fighting Sioux name perish, in context. The United States Constitution prohibits the establishment of any official religion in America. Moreover, our jurisprudence over the last two-plus centuries has firmly established a separation between church and state. (Please, for the love of whoever you pray to, save us any diatribes in this forum about the separation of church and state).

As a result, courthouses are not allowed to display copies of the Ten Commandments. Now, those Ten Commandments, in most cases, are not maintained or put up by the court or government. Those Ten Commandments were donated by civic-minded church groups like the Knights of Columbus. However, by allowing the Ten Commandments to be displayed in the government building, i.e., the courthouse, the court, and by extension the state, is tacitly endorsing those Ten Commandments. You cannot circumvent the law by dressing it up in a costume to evade compliance --- a rose by another name would smell as sweet.

This is why the "UND doesn't endorse the Nickel Trophy" logic likely wouldn't pass muster. My guess is that the interested parties would say that the teams continuing to play for the Nickel Trophy violates the spirit, and intent, of UND's settlement agreement with the NCAA. Moreover, in perhaps the understatement of the year, UND and the SBHOE, probably want finality to this whole situation. Allowing the Nickel Trophy to stay keeps that door to the Fighting Sioux and the nickname debate wide open.

If that day does come, and the Nickel Trophy is retired, it would truly be a sad day. To see such a venerated symbol of North Dakota fall quietly by the wayside, and into the dark shadows of history, simply because some miscontrue it as hostile or abusive is, frankly, perverse. In this situation, a Nickel Trophy by any other name would definitely not smell as sweet.
My guess is the "faculty elite", as SocalledFan named them, will use their very small minority (but smarter than us all attitude) to try and keep the nickel tropy retired. I say FU--'EM. Time for the majority to have their say. Why does the majority allow this PC crap to continue.

[Hammersmith]

I believe that if the Nickel is retired, it will be by UND's free choice and nothing else. I very much doubt the NCAA or even the tribes will get involved. Sure, there might be a handful of protestations from the usual individual suspects, but nothing with any weight behind it. The NCAA settlement allows UND to keep certain nickname-related objects with historical significance. A US coin replica with many decades of service is almost the definition of that. If UND truly wants to continue to use the Nickel, all they have to do is tell the tribal councils to only do something if they have a problem with it. If they do nothing, it will be interpreted as tacit approval for this one item. The Sitting Bull trophy for the UND/USD game would be a totally different story if it were ever found. There's no way to separate that object from the nickname.

All that being said, I have a bad feeling UND won't even try to continue to use the Nickel. They will use the situation as an excuse to keep the Nickel permanently. But that's just my opinion.

[THEsocalledfan]

I believe that if the Nickel is retired, it will be by UND's free choice and nothing else. I very much doubt the NCAA or even the tribes will get involved. Sure, there might be a handful of protestations from the usual individual suspects, but nothing with any weight behind it. The NCAA settlement allows UND to keep certain nickname-related objects with historical significance. A US coin replica with many decades of service is almost the definition of that. If UND truly wants to continue to use the Nickel, all they have to do is tell the tribal councils to only do something if they have a problem with it. If they do nothing, it will be interpreted as tacit approval for this one item. The Sitting Bull trophy for the UND/USD game would be a totally different story if it were ever found. There's no way to separate that object from the nickname.

All that being said, I have a bad feeling UND won't even try to continue to use the Nickel. They will use the situation as an excuse to keep the Nickel permanently. But that's just my opinion.

Well, said. I would like to think better of UND, however. I would think the appropriate thing to do, if they decide to retire it, is to send it to the State Heritage museum in Bismarck for permanent display (with, of course, the Bison side showing). If the course was taken (outside of my little joke), I think all parties would be happy. Blue Key would obviously need to approve since they are a co-owner.

On the other hand, let's hope they give the NCAA the bird and keep it as a traveling trophey.

[Bisonguy]

Melt it and make beer cans out of it.

[Spectator]

Sorry but I doubt that if UND loses the nickname that they would have the power to keep the Nickel Trophy alive. They already had to retire the Sitting Bull Trophy with USD.

Also unless the game is annual then it really wouldn't be fair to either team. Of course a new trophy could be created once the dust has cleared but those in favor of eliminating the nickname take a lot of history with them including the Nickle Trophy.

However if retired I would say it should be displayed in some state facility for historic purposes, possiblly the muesum in Bismarck.

[tony]

Swany, I don't think you can equate a coin with a nickname. The nickname is associated with all sorts of impolite, tacky, and sometimes even racist behavior. Coins don't have that taint. I mean, nobody is going to dress up like an Indian and dance around because of what is on a coin; putting something on a coin is not a form of caricuture. Another difference: Satans/Demons/Devils/Blue Devils* are acceptable as nicknames but we'd never put any of them on a coin. BTW, it's not accident that Devils Lake dropped the Satans nickname at the same time UND started spouting the nonsense about nicknames being a form of honor. Sloppy thinking (and even willful stupidity) are alarmingly contagious.

The only reason for retiring the Nickel trophy would be because it's tainted by association the nickname. The buffalo head nickel exists completely independently from UND's nickname.

That said, I'm with Hammer, I wouldn't be surprised if UND retires the trophy. Yeah, it'd be a dink move but, hey, if that's the price we have to pay for not having to put up with all the crap that UND's nickname has brought to NDSU's doorstep, then so be it.

[Twentysix]

I personally think Northern Iowa can be become a bigger rival then UND

This+++++++ Any team that allows there players to exchange swear words and threats with the fans has Rival written all over it.

[HerdBot]

Given the situation surrounding the Fighting Sioux nickname, when the football rivalry resumes, will NDSU and UND continue to play for the Nickel Trophy? I doubt it.

http://www.bisonillustrated.com/s.php?s=168



Its ok to have a president on a nickel but an indian is offensive?

[CaBisonFan]

Given the situation surrounding the Fighting Sioux nickname, when the football rivalry resumes, will NDSU and UND continue to play for the Nickel Trophy? I doubt it.

http://www.bisonillustrated.com/s.php?s=168

I don't care. Seriously case of disinterest.

[Facts]

My guess is the "faculty elite", as SocalledFan named them, will use their very small minority (but smarter than us all attitude) to try and keep the nickel tropy retired. I say FU--'EM. Time for the majority to have their say. Why does the majority allow this PC crap to continue.

[/Honest question]SD got me to thinking... I know I'm opening up a can-of-worms, but here's my question: If one NA is actually truly offended by the nickname... is it really a PC issue? Another way to look at this is if 1/3 of SL votes against the nickname, is that acceptable?... I guess my question is... is this as simple as a majority rules vote issue?[/Honest question]

[DIBISON]

No it's not. That is an important point I have brought up to the higher-ups, there are still a third of the voters that are opposed to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. Come on, this is just a name for athletic teams, so if that many people are against the use, it is time to move on.

[SDbison]

No it's not. That is an important point I have brought up to the higher-ups, there are still a third of the voters that are opposed to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. Come on, this is just a name for athletic teams, so if that many people are against the use, it is time to move on.
I say if two thirds of the voters approve then majority rules. I am tired of the recent attitude that somehow smaller voting blocks should get their way.

[Grizzled]

No it's not. That is an important point I have brought up to the higher-ups, there are still a third of the voters that are opposed to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. Come on, this is just a name for athletic teams, so if that many people are against the use, it is time to move on.

I bet you could find a few hundred who are offended by the Seminole nickname do you think that should be changed? Same situation.

If you are going to put it to a vote than my opinion is you better let the majority decision rule. If not, keep letting the minority dictate the situation and don't vote.

[Shawn-O]

I say if two thirds of the voters approve then majority rules. I am tired of the recent attitude that somehow smaller voting blocks should get their way.

Amen to this.

[Shawn-O]

No it's not. That is an important point I have brought up to the higher-ups, there are still a third of the voters that are opposed to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. Come on, this is just a name for athletic teams, so if that many people are against the use, it is time to move on.

You have no stake in the matter, so it's nothing more but a flippant remark.

[56BISON73]

No it's not. That is an important point I have brought up to the higher-ups, there are still a third of the voters that are opposed to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. Come on, this is just a name for athletic teams, so if that many people are against the use, it is time to move on.

There is nothing in the constitution that says you have the right to not be offended. No matter what subject one can bring up there will ALWAYS be someone who differs.

So seriously---how can a small faction of people over ride those of the majority. Now that type of thinking offends my sensibilities.

[siouxdgj]

Here is the logic behind banning the Nickel Trophy. The Nickel Trophy depicts a Native American on one side. This entire nickname situation has centered around a moniker and logo -- the Fighting Sioux -- that is "hostile and abusive."

As such, allowing any depiction, account, or portrayal of a Native American symbol is by extension hostile and abusive, i.e., all the Sioux logos at Engelstad Arena. To allow a symbol, like the Nickel Trophy, to remain as part of UND's athletic program circumvents the spirit and intent of the settlement agreement reached between UND and the NCAA.

Now, some will argue, including many on this message board, that the Nickel is not affiliated with, nor sponsored by UND, therefore, the NCAA shouldn't be able to touch (ban) it. This is true, but only to a very limited extent. UND implicity endorses the trophy by allowing it to be presented, on the field, to the winner of the Bison-Sioux game at the Alerus Center. To say that UND does not sponsor, or endorse the Nickel Trophy, given it's longstanding history with UND -- and its presentation on the field following the game -- is a very big stretch that simply seeks an end-around the truth.

I'll give you a parallel to put the situation with the Nickel Trophy and its continuation, should the Fighting Sioux name perish, in context. The United States Constitution prohibits the establishment of any official religion in America. Moreover, our jurisprudence over the last two-plus centuries has firmly established a separation between church and state. (Please, for the love of whoever you pray to, save us any diatribes in this forum about the separation of church and state).

As a result, courthouses are not allowed to display copies of the Ten Commandments. Now, those Ten Commandments, in most cases, are not maintained or put up by the court or government. Those Ten Commandments were donated by civic-minded church groups like the Knights of Columbus. However, by allowing the Ten Commandments to be displayed in the government building, i.e., the courthouse, the court, and by extension the state, is tacitly endorsing those Ten Commandments. You cannot circumvent the law by dressing it up in a costume to evade compliance --- a rose by another name would smell as sweet.

This is why the "UND doesn't endorse the Nickel Trophy" logic likely wouldn't pass muster. My guess is that the interested parties would say that the teams continuing to play for the Nickel Trophy violates the spirit, and intent, of UND's settlement agreement with the NCAA. Moreover, in perhaps the understatement of the year, UND and the SBHOE, probably want finality to this whole situation. Allowing the Nickel Trophy to stay keeps that door to the Fighting Sioux and the nickname debate wide open.

If that day does come, and the Nickel Trophy is retired, it would truly be a sad day. To see such a venerated symbol of North Dakota fall quietly by the wayside, and into the dark shadows of history, simply because some miscontrue it as hostile or abusive is, frankly, perverse. In this situation, a Nickel Trophy by any other name would definitely not smell as sweet.

Wish I had written the above myself. I think in a thumb-nail this is very much right on. I believe UND (in the event the nickname has to go, which seems very much so at present barring a favorable vote in time by Standing Rock) would be ruled in violation of the spirit and the intent, and that it indeed would be construed by many as simply being an "end run" effort. Therefore, the best way of insuring a continuing Nickel Trophy would be for events to turn out in such a way that the nickname could be retained. I would like to see the Nickel Trophy trotted out again and presented annually to the victor of the game. I'm not too hopeful at present, however.

[Bisonguy]

There is nothing in the constitution that says you have the right to not be offended. No matter what subject one can bring up there will ALWAYS be someone who differs.

So seriously---how can a small faction of people over ride those of the majority. Now that type of thinking offends my sensibilities.


Last I checked, the United States was a bastardized representative democracy not an ochlocracy. Here's a quote from 'An Introduction to the American Legal System', "the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."

Just because a majority agrees on something does not make it right. If you need examples look up the Salem Witch Trials, various lynchings, various civil rights issues, and gang rape.

[56BISON73]

Last I checked, the United States was a bastardized representative democracy not an ochlocracy. Here's a quote from 'An Introduction to the American Legal System', "the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."

Just because a majority agrees on something does not make it right. If you need examples look up the Salem Witch Trials, various lynchings, various civil rights issues, and gang rape.

Lest we also not forget that just because a small minority of wingnuts think something is wrong doesnt make it so.

[Bisonguy]

Lest we also not forget that just because a small minority of wingnuts think something is wrong doesnt make it so.


Yes, right or wrong, the fastest way to silence a minority of wingnuts that have been squeaking for four decades is to remove the issue they've been squeaking about.

[56BISON73]

Yes, right or wrong, the fastest way to silence a minority of wingnuts that have been squeaking for four decades is to remove the issue they've been squeaking about.

So you give in to the wingnuts just because they squeak ??? I think not.

[TransAmBison]

The mob would never have to worry about squeaky wingnuts. Just sayin'.

[Shawn-O]

Yes, right or wrong, the fastest way to silence a minority of wingnuts that have been squeaking for four decades is to remove the issue they've been squeaking about.

What about PETA, the various ACLU "issues" and every war for the last fifty years?

[Bisonguy]

So you give in to the wingnuts just because they squeak ??? I think not.


Yeah, I guess maintaning the status quo of a four decade plus controversy would be the honorable thing to do.


An opponent with no power is no longer an opponent....

[56BISON73]

The mob would never have to worry about squeaky wingnuts. Just sayin'.

If I remember correctly it was the wingnuts who put the mob in control. I think it was called prohibition.

[Shawn-O]

Yeah, I guess maintaning the status quo of a four decade plus controversy would be the honorable thing to do.


An opponent with no power is no longer an opponent....

There was a referendum conducted by one namesake tribe. Another is preparing for a vote. That seems to be that they are empowered to make the decision.

[DjKyRo]

Eventually there comes a point where that small minority can be vocal enough to tarnish an organization's image, and over a 40 year period that's a lot of tarnishing. Sometimes shutting them up is the right choice in the long term.

[Shawn-O]

Eventually there comes a point where that small minority can be vocal enough to tarnish an organization's image, and over a 40 year period that's a lot of tarnishing. Sometimes shutting them up is the right choice in the long term.

Wait 'till it's your ox being gored. No pun intended.

[Bisonguy]

What about PETA, the various ACLU "issues" and every war for the last fifty years?

Same goes for them, although you're diverging into much more complex situations.

[Shawn-O]

Same goes for them, although you're diverging into much more complex situations.

They are political situations, no different than this.

[56BISON73]

Eventually there comes a point where that small minority can be vocal enough to tarnish an organization's image, and over a 40 year period that's a lot of tarnishing. Sometimes shutting them up is the right choice in the long term.

Thats what they want you to think.

[Bisonguy]

They are political situations, no different than this.


Ah yes, whether or not Suzy Rottencrotch will be prom queen for Hillsboro and national healthcare reform. Both political situations.

[Shawn-O]

Ah yes, whether or not Suzy Rottencrotch will be prom queen for Hillsboro and national healthcare reform. Both political situations.

I thought politics were verboten here? Maybe you'd better revisit the forum terms and rules?
Maybe politics are allowed! I'm feeling empowered, like a squeaky wingnut. Maybe Bisonguy is busy writing the new by-law as we speak.

[tony]

I thought politics were verboten here? Maybe you'd better revisit the forum terms and rules?
Maybe politics are allowed! I'm feeling empowered, like a squeaky wingnut. Maybe Bisonguy is busy writing the new by-law as we speak.

It's partisan politics that is really frowned upon because the discussions are so colossally moronic and divisive. Besides, "verbottten" is more appropriate word for a UND board, isn't it? As in "Smack is verbotten," when of course it really isn't so maybe you should take your rules complaint there :)

[Shawn-O]

It's partisan politics that is really frowned upon because the discussions are so colossally moronic and divisive. Besides, "verbottten" is more appropriate word for a UND board, isn't it? As in "Smack is verbotten," when of course it really isn't so maybe you should take your rules complaint there :)

The forum rules seem unclear on this issue. I look forward to some lively debate in the future, on a myriad of topics! ;)

[Facts]

Interesting discussion... [/noironinthefire] What role do the various scientific studies, that all conclude (statistically) depicting NA's as mascot's/logo's is oppressive, play in this debate?? Are they to be ignored, taken with a grain of salt, or be taken seriously?[/noironinthefire]

[Shawn-O]

Interesting discussion... [/noironinthefire] What role do the various scientific studies, that all conclude (statistically) depicting NA's as mascot's/logo's is oppressive, play in this debate?? Are they to be ignored, taken with a grain of salt, or be taken seriously?[/noironinthefire]

All?


a recent SI poll suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently. Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83% of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters and symbols. Opinion is far more divided on reservations, yet a majority (67%) there said the usage by pro teams should not cease, while 32% said it should.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/115793/

The recent Spirit Lake vote would seem to be a validation of the "scientific" polling of the opinion. The Standing Rock petition leads one to think that a vote would result in a similar conclusion?

Maybe things have changed in the last eight years. Please post links here, I'd be interested in reading them.

[BlueBisonRock]

Ah yes, whether or not Suzy Rottencrotch will be prom queen for Hillsboro and national healthcare reform. Both political situations.

I always thought Suzi went to Cooperstown. Thanks for clearing this up.

[Shawn-O]

I always thought Suzi went to Cooperstown. Thanks for clearing this up.

She was a Young Republican.

[A1pigskin]

How about we give the Fighting Sue's a participation certificate in place of the Trophey...

[Tatanka]

There was a referendum conducted by one namesake tribe. Another is preparing for a vote. That seems to be that they are empowered to make the decision.

Just have to toss in that I find it amusing to see people falling all over themselves to give the tribes a voice when just over a decade ago, the tribes spoke pretty clearly through their leadership (by unanimous vote, actually) and their request was roundly ignored if not laughed at by some of those same people. I guess the "majority" tribal opinion only matters if it's in agreement with the outside interests and the guy with the money.

Carry on.

[CaBisonFan]

I thought politics were verboten here? Maybe you'd better revisit the forum terms and rules?
Maybe politics are allowed! I'm feeling empowered, like a squeaky wingnut. Maybe Bisonguy is busy writing the new by-law as we speak.

Depends on which politics...:cool:

[CaBisonFan]

Just have to toss in that I find it amusing to see people falling all over themselves to give the tribes a voice when just over a decade ago, the tribes spoke pretty clearly through their leadership (by unanimous vote, actually) and their request was roundly ignored if not laughed at by some of those same people. I guess the "majority" tribal opinion only matters if it's in agreement with the outside interests and the guy with the money.

Carry on.

Good one...:nod:

[BisoninNWMN]

Good for Standing Rock!!!!


UND Fighting Whiners

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[lakesbison]

Do we need to post the 2 letters from 1992 + 1999 from standing rock council..AGAIN??

you guys have used the.name against the will of,thier votes since 1992!!! thats the definition of racism ,..going against someone's will.

but i.wont post them again, carry on

[Shawn-O]

Do we need to post the 2 letters from 1992 + 1999 from standing rock council..AGAIN??

you guys have used the.name against the will of,thier votes since 1992!!! thats the definition of racism ,..going against someone's will.

but i.wont post them again, carry on

Like the stuff that was hurled at Ron Hunter and IUPUI last winter? That kind of racism?

[Grizzled]

Just have to toss in that I find it amusing to see people falling all over themselves to give the tribes a voice when just over a decade ago, the tribes spoke pretty clearly through their leadership (by unanimous vote, actually) and their request was roundly ignored if not laughed at by some of those same people. I guess the "majority" tribal opinion only matters if it's in agreement with the outside interests and the guy with the money.

Carry on.

If this whole thing has brought anything to the forefront for the tribes its that the people now truely know that these tribal leaders don't always represent what a majority of the people want. Same could be said for a lot of leaderships though. If the leadership today is so sure that the tribes don't want the nickname used than put it to a vote. If the people want it than the majority will vote for it. They know that won't happen though.

To throw my two cents in on the original topic though I have a feeling if the name is gone, the nickel trophy is done. I can't remember who said it earlier but I agree as well that I'm guessing UND will want to seperate themselves as far as they can from the "retired" nickname. I don't agree with it but I don't blame them either.

[lakesbison]

Ahh NO. nice deflection mother pucker (mother day + hockey reference,.all in 1 ) .haha thats been widely reported that nothing racist was said,,,,,,BUT go.ahead and keep using the name for 18 more years.against the 12-0 vote,,,,,

[roadwarrior]

Wisconsin passes law banning use of Native American logos....

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/278107/group/News/

[BisoninNWMN]

Like the stuff that was hurled at Ron Hunter and IUPUI last winter? That kind of racism?

LOL......nice try at deflection....

Real racism and bigotry at UND to a nonexistent comparison at NDSU.....

[BlueBisonRock]

Like the stuff that was hurled at Ron Hunter and IUPUI last winter? That kind of racism?

Go back and check the facts. No racial comments were made. That was simply a hot headed coach and a going out of business radio guy creating an incident. Funny, we never did see an apology for them making a mountain out of an unsupported molehill.

[Bison Dan]

Go back and check the facts. No racial comments were made. That was simply a hot headed coach and a going out of business radio guy creating an incident. Funny, we never did see an apology for them making a mountain out of an unsupported molehill.

Don't bother with facts they (und) don't want to hear them. Coach threw
in the race card because he was pissed.

[Bisonguy]

I thought politics were verboten here? Maybe you'd better revisit the forum terms and rules?
Maybe politics are allowed! I'm feeling empowered, like a squeaky wingnut. Maybe Bisonguy is busy writing the new by-law as we speak.


You bring up the fact that the nickname is a 'political situation', I give an example on how they can vastly vary in complexity (without any discussion), and somehow I'm now circumventing the board's no partisan politics rule? :confused:

Mountain or molehill? Seriously, it's only a nickname for the athletic department. Heck, if only 15% of the bison residing in the state or their elected leaders wanted NDSU to change it's athletic department nickname, I'd probably support their wishes.

[56BISON73]

You bring up the fact that the nickname is a 'political situation', I give an example on how they can vastly vary in complexity (without any discussion), and somehow I'm now circumventing the board's no partisan politics rule? :confused:

Mountain or molehill? Seriously, it's only a nickname for the athletic department. Heck, if only 15% of the bison residing in the state or their elected leaders wanted NDSU to change it's athletic department nickname, I'd probably support their wishes.

Why??????????????

[Facts]

All?



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/115793/

The recent Spirit Lake vote would seem to be a validation of the "scientific" polling of the opinion. The Standing Rock petition leads one to think that a vote would result in a similar conclusion?

Maybe things have changed in the last eight years. Please post links here, I'd be interested in reading them.

S-O,
An SI opinion poll is not a peer reviewed, statistically evaluated, scientific experiment. I certainly hope that's not how the scientific method is taught up north... but it wouldn't surprise me. In fact, that actually explains alot. I'll look for links later... but I'm fairly certain the reason the NCAA came down on NA logos in the first place was because of ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC studies like the one I initially referenced.

[Bisonguy]

Why??????????????


Because some of the animals that we were supposedly honoring took offense to it, and it's JUST A FREAKING NICKNAME.

[CaBisonFan]

Political...vs. legal...vs civil rights...with an honest look at history, and how we have affected people. Start with looking at where the Sioux name came from, and who it was applied to...and why...and under what conditions. This involves civil rights...where the violation of the civil rights of one person is deemed to be inappropriate, or illegal...regardless of popular opinion. Call it wrong...unjust...whatever...it is a product of our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, & our laws.

The decision made in court affects entities such as the Board of Ed., the university administration, the ncaa, & other universities. It doesn't matter what Ralph did with his money...or what he thought. Popular opinion doesn't matter...at all.

Personally...I don't give a damn about the Fighting Sioux name. I don't care about their athletic programs at all anymore. Win...lose...or draw...I don't care...at all. None...about the name (either way)...or what they choose as their new name. I don't care if we ever play them again...either way. Personally, if the clock could be turned back slightly, I would choose the Great West Football Conference...with NDSU, SDSU, Cal Poly, Cal Davis, Southern Utah, UND, & USD...plus one or two more. Then playing each other would have been a 'natural,' and would have had conference implications again. Without that, something is missing.

The Nickel Trophy is a great part of the history of the old rivalry. I cherish the great games when one team was heavily-favored. I love the era when the Bison made the Sioux look totally outclassed. My favorite game goes back to the 70s...when we beat the #1-ranked Sioux in GF in the last minute, with a hobbling QB that had to be lured back to the program from the dorms. Bison Football...played with heart & class. The trophy is a piece of wood & metal.

[ndsubison1]

Why arent people up in arms over the Solen Sioux nickname?

[BisoninNWMN]

Why arent people up in arms over the Solen Sioux nickname?

Because it is on the reservation.....just like the Mahnomen Indians or Warroad Warriors...it is on the res.

Now if those towns were off the res, then all those people would be racist and bigots that need sensitivity or PC awareness....:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[CaBisonFan]

Why arent people up in arms over the Solen Sioux nickname?

Someone has to have the motivation & money to file the lawsuit. They would likely lose. It's just like when people within their own ethnic group slur each other, without a problem.

[KC Bison]

I love all this complaining. I can only hope the Summit and the Missouri Valley people are catching all this. We may never have to compete against und again and that would be fine with me.

[CaBisonFan]

I love all this complaining. I can only hope the Summit and the Missouri Valley people are catching all this. We may never have to compete against und again and that would be fine with me.

It won't go anywhere that matters...and even if it did...no big deal. I don't care what the Sioux fans think about it. But really, their right to keep the name has been defended by several people here. So no big deal.

It's just a discussion that's really quite innocent.

[lakesbison]

keep fighting and keep out of the summit. thank you morons.

[Mr. Burgundy]

keep fighting and keep out of the summit. thank you morons.

Lakes is right. But, they don't care, they are in the WCHA!!!! Please keep fighting.