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HerdBot
04-12-2010, 06:41 AM
To continue moving forward in D1 athletics, I hope the new president makes a push for D1 Hockey.

It makes sense and we already have a great venue just waiting for us! It's so logical that MSUM recognized the opportunity and they play in a different state!!

REASONS TO PURSUE HOCKEY
1) The Force averaged more fans per game than NDSU basketball and that was following the year we made the NCAA tournament.
2) No brainer but... Hockey is big in the midwest and we live in North Dakota! We're the largest University in the state and the largest city.
3) We already have an above average facilty with the UP Center
4) Too much talent in the midwest. Not enough teams. Seriously, if Bemidji can field an elite team, why can't NDSU?
5) Club hockey was a big deal back in the day! Most don't realize just how big it was when we were winning 8 National Championships.
6) MSUM even recognizes the opportunity for Hockey. Problem is they have no money. If we don't do this, someone else will. Then what?
7) UND constantly tries to piss us off. Now it's time to return the favor. We won't compete with them for years but hey if we can hurt their depth with our scholarships...that's cool! Heck, the Sioux were a big deal even before the Ralph was built so there is no reason we can't be competitive.
8) We have a nice developmental team in town with the Force.
9) 2,000 Flickertail season ticket holders in Fargo?
10) Some day we could play the likes of the Gophers in hockey?
11) Don't want to hear about not doing it becase we have no tradition. Expansion franchises start up all the time. Look at the Force and Wild.

With solid leadership, we could raise enough money to field a competitive hockey team within 10 years AND remodel the BSA. This is how we will separate ourselves from the rest.

ndsubison1
04-12-2010, 07:42 AM
To continue moving forward in D1 athletics, I hope the new president makes a push for D1 Hockey.

It makes sense and we already have a great venue just waiting for us! It's so logical that MSUM recognized the opportunity and they play in a different state!!

REASONS TO PURSUE HOCKEY
1) The Force averaged more fans per game than NDSU basketball and that was following the year we made the NCAA tournament.
2) No brainer but... Hockey is big in the midwest and we live in North Dakota! We're the largest University in the state and the largest city.
3) We already have an above average facilty with the UP Center
4) Too much talent in the midwest. Not enough teams. Seriously, if Bemidji can field an elite team, why can't NDSU?
5) Club hockey was a big deal back in the day! Most don't realize just how big it was when we were winning 8 National Championships.
6) MSUM even recognizes the opportunity for Hockey. Problem is they have no money. If we don't do this, someone else will. Then what?
7) UND constantly tries to piss us off. Now it's time to return the favor. We won't compete with them for years but hey if we can hurt their depth with our scholarships...that's cool! Heck, the Sioux were a big deal even before the Ralph was built so there is no reason we can't be competitive.
8) We have a nice developmental team in town with the Force.
9) 2,000 Flickertail season ticket holders in Fargo?
10) Some day we could play the likes of the Gophers in hockey?
11) Don't want to hear about not doing it becase we have no tradition. Expansion franchises start up all the time. Look at the Force and Wild.

With solid leadership, we could raise enough money to field a competitive hockey team within 10 years AND remodel the BSA. This is how we will separate ourselves from the rest.

1. Basketball has the biggest potential of any college sport period
2. Hockey is popular in this area but there are plenty of other D1 hockey programs in this area. Recruiting, support and money would be very tough
3. Facility is way off campus. Fargo is a fair-weather fan city. Nobody wants to drive there twice a week to watch us get our asses kicked.
4. It will take us decades to field a great team.
5. Fair point.
6. Money, ah yes that is always important. We have much bigger priorities
7. Scrioux the sioux
8. We already have hockey here
9. A lot of them already hate NDSU
10. We already play them in football, basketball and baseball
11. Money, ah yes that is always important

Tatanka
04-12-2010, 09:18 AM
I like hockey as much as the next guy (probably more). However, I would like to see NDSU concentrate its efforts on maximizing its current sports teams before embarking on the money pit you call college hockey. Lots more prioity than that.

lakesbison
04-12-2010, 01:12 PM
1. gabe shows his true colors , always wondered about him,

2. i love hockey, but about 50% of the tri state region care about it, and 5% nationally .

3 ERV INNIGER/AMY RULEY/BUCKY (they will fight hockey to their deatns, believe that!)

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 01:41 PM
1.We can still be great at basketball, football, and hockey. Although basketball has the most national potential, the chances of us competing in hockey is much greater. Once every 10-20 years we could make a run like Northern Iowa but we have a zero percent chance of making the Final Four. (The Sioux managed to win a D2 football championship, womens baskeball championship, and hockey championship)
2. Nationally there are not very many good teams. The midwest is loaded with talent. Heck, UND's bench could start for most teams. Bemidji, St Cloud, and Mankato can field competitve teams. So can we.
3. You can go clear across Fargo in 30 minutes. Besides, I live in south Fargo and I manage to make it to north Fargo for games.
4. Rome wasn't built overnight. Besides expansion teams start up all the time and go on to do big things.
5. MSU is correct.
6. One of the top financial issues with Hockey is finding a great venue. We already have one.
7. The best way to "screw the sioux" is to start hockey.
8. Club hockey is not the real deal.
9. Point was to illustrate just how popular hockey is. Driving 180 miles doesn't deter Fargo Sioux fans from driving so why would an off campus stadium?
10. It's not about playing the Sioux. It's about dominating the midwest.
11.If it's a good idea the money will flow in. Did any of us think the Force would field a team that outdraws NDSU baskeball? And the Force are a step down from college hockey.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 02:21 PM
It can be done without spending millions...

Bemidji State's speding on Hockey in 2009 was $359,238. They made it to the frozen 4.

They out spent teams like Boston.

Instead of looking at it as a NEGATIVE drain on finances, why not look at it as a POSITVE way to grow revenue?

aces1180
04-12-2010, 02:34 PM
It can be done without spending millions...

Bemidji State's speding on Hockey in 2009 was $359,238. They made it to the frozen 4.

They out spent teams like Boston.

Instead of looking at it as a NEGATIVE drain on finances, why not look at it as a POSITVE way to grow revenue?

Bemidji State also has a storied history of NCAA Division II hockey, winning numerous national titles. There program worked its way up to Division I after years of playing at the lower levels.

99Bison
04-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Reallllllly, this again! :banghead: :(

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Bemidji State also has a storied history of NCAA Division II hockey, winning numerous national titles. There program worked its way up to Division I after years of playing at the lower levels.

Our club hockey has a storied history too having won 8 Championships and back in the day, they had some huge crowds. But having a storied history doesn't necessarily mean success. SDSU was a so so football team but they are having more success than we are right now even though we have a better tradition. And with a great venue like the UP, we would have a nice jump start.

aces1180
04-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Our club hockey has a storied history too having won 8 Championships and back in the day, they had some huge crowds. But having a storied history doesn't necessarily mean success. SDSU was a so so football team but they are having more success than we are right now even though we have a better tradition. And with a great venue like the UP, we would have a nice jump start.

Fair enough.

However, I disagree with you and will predict that we will never see NCAA Division I hockey at NDSU for AT LEAST 20 years.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Fair enough.

However, I disagree with you and will predict that we will never see NCAA Division I hockey at NDSU for AT LEAST 20 years.


Unless our new President has a newer bigger vision for NDSU and Gene Taylor does a 180, we won't see hockey. What bothers me is they have given up even attempting to get it. Money is the biggest obstacle but I honestly think if we come out and say it's on the radar, donors will show up and it won't cut into the other sports.

tony
04-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Unless our new President has a newer bigger vision for NDSU and Gene Taylor does a 180, we won't see hockey. What bothers me is they have given up even attempting to get it. Money is the biggest obstacle but I honestly think if we come out and say it's on the radar, donors will show up and it won't cut into the other sports.

Well, DI is a much bigger fish to fry. If hockey is so great, why aren't NDSU students organizing to ask for the sport to be added? Why does everything have to come from the top down at NDSU?

aces1180
04-12-2010, 04:20 PM
Unless our new President has a newer bigger vision for NDSU and Gene Taylor does a 180, we won't see hockey. What bothers me is they have given up even attempting to get it. Money is the biggest obstacle but I honestly think if we come out and say it's on the radar, donors will show up and it won't cut into the other sports.

Just remember, if you add men's hockey, you have to add a comparable women's sport (hockey), which could be a money pit.

RodentiaX
04-12-2010, 04:28 PM
There are expansion teams in the pros, but that's not a good analogy. For one, they are started up by owners who have a lot of money to sink into a team. Secondly, the expansion teams have a conference from the beginning. And then there are things like expansion drafts to put expansion teams on an equal footing.

The existing conferences are pretty crowded, not much room for further expansion. If the CHA was still around, that would have been an option. Moorhead may have considered the possibility of adding hockey, but they may have considered it too late.

Bemidji State doesn't have to pay for a whole D-I program. Hockey is life there. The football team is doing pretty well, but that's just a bonus. Bemidji State has D-I hockey because when D-II hockey folded, they had the option of dropping hockey or going D-I, and dropping hockey was unthinkable at Bemidji.

If NDSU is to have D-I hockey, those who want hockey would have to beat on the Presidents door with a wheelbarow full of cash and demand hockey.

GOB1SON
04-12-2010, 04:40 PM
Just remember, if you add men's hockey, you have to add a comparable women's sport (hockey), which could be a money pit.

This. ^^^^^^^^^^

Bison"FANatic"
04-12-2010, 04:53 PM
If NDSU is to have D-I hockey, those who want hockey would have to beat on the Presidents door with a wheelbarow full of cash and demand hockey.

And be willing to continue to bring that wheelbarrow to his door year in and year out. Oh and not be people that are going to take that wheelbarrow from the pile they already give to basketball and football and the other sports.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Just remember, if you add men's hockey, you have to add a comparable women's sport (hockey), which could be a money pit.

Not necessarily. Title IX means you need to add scholarships to other womens sports. There has been talk about womens sand volleyball? I think that could be a very profitible sport. Hockey would be a big time revenue generator. Imagine having the revenue from hockey to go with the revenue of football?

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 05:05 PM
There are expansion teams in the pros, but that's not a good analogy. For one, they are started up by owners who have a lot of money to sink into a team. Secondly, the expansion teams have a conference from the beginning. And then there are things like expansion drafts to put expansion teams on an equal footing.

The existing conferences are pretty crowded, not much room for further expansion. If the CHA was still around, that would have been an option. Moorhead may have considered the possibility of adding hockey, but they may have considered it too late.

Bemidji State doesn't have to pay for a whole D-I program. Hockey is life there. The football team is doing pretty well, but that's just a bonus. Bemidji State has D-I hockey because when D-II hockey folded, they had the option of dropping hockey or going D-I, and dropping hockey was unthinkable at Bemidji.

If NDSU is to have D-I hockey, those who want hockey would have to beat on the Presidents door with a wheelbarow full of cash and demand hockey.


It they form a Big Ten Hockey League than we need to be ready to jump on board with the WCHA. The Big Ten is all about capitalizing on it's name. That's why they have the "Big Ten Network." I'm confident it will eventually happen. Travel costs would be minimal given the fact many of the teams are in Minnesota plus Bemidji.

cbline
04-12-2010, 05:23 PM
I like hockey as much as the next guy (probably more). However, I would like to see NDSU concentrate its efforts on maximizing its current sports teams before embarking on the money pit you call college hockey. Lots more prioity than that.

I am like Tatanka on this one: "I like hockey as much as the next guy", but the problem is that both me and the next guy DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS about having hockey at NDSU. Hockey has the depth of support, but it does not have the breadth to make it a go. Hockey fans are very vocal, but they are a minority, and that must be kept in mind with this discussion.

56BISON73
04-12-2010, 05:33 PM
I am like Tatanka on this one: "I like hockey as much as the next guy", but the problem is that both me and the next guy DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS about having hockey at NDSU. Hockey has the depth of support, but it does not have the breadth to make it a go. Hockey fans are very vocal, but they are a minority, and that must be kept in mind with this discussion.

Im with you and Tank!!!!!

silkamilkamonico
04-12-2010, 06:45 PM
Just say NO to NDSU hockey! I would actually voice my displeasure for it if NDSU ever considered it.

roadwarrior
04-12-2010, 06:54 PM
Don't forget to factor in that there are no practice facilities for hockey on campus either.

99Bison
04-12-2010, 07:34 PM
If this ever happened at NDSU, for Title IX it probably won't be women's hockey it would be equestrian, sand vb, etc. AND if you want money you concentrate on Men's Basketball, that's where the real money is at in college sports. Anything else is peanuts, period.

AKBison
04-12-2010, 07:53 PM
After these things are done, lets add Hockey.

1. Fix our Basketball arena situation.
2. Fully fund all sports
3. Build the indoor practice field for football and track
4. Build the new softball stadium
5. Build the indoor practice field for Baseball and softball
6. Buld new aquatic facility with indoor tennis courts
7. Add womens Tennis and womens swimming and diving
8. Add Hockey or go FBS

Dude, I would love to add Hockey at NDSU. I think it would be a great fit, a revenue sport that NDSU can succeed at. However, we must take care of the above list first.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 07:59 PM
I am like Tatanka on this one: "I like hockey as much as the next guy", but the problem is that both me and the next guy DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS about having hockey at NDSU. Hockey has the depth of support, but it does not have the breadth to make it a go. Hockey fans are very vocal, but they are a minority, and that must be kept in mind with this discussion.

They are not a minority. The flippin' Fargo Force outdrew the Bison basketball team 2 years in a row. They are a step down from D1 Hockey. What do you think the real thing would draw?

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 08:02 PM
Well, DI is a much bigger fish to fry. If hockey is so great, why aren't NDSU students organizing to ask for the sport to be added? Why does everything have to come from the top down at NDSU?

If baskeball is so big than why are the NDSU students not organizing support for a new arena? Why do they let the Fargo Force outdraw them? I mean, we just went to the big dance, right?

bisonballs33
04-12-2010, 08:02 PM
Well, DI is a much bigger fish to fry. If hockey is so great, why aren't NDSU students organizing to ask for the sport to be added? Why does everything have to come from the top down at NDSU?

This has happened. Top figures in the athletic program just sweep it under the rug.

bisonballs33
04-12-2010, 08:05 PM
Don't forget to factor in that there are no practice facilities for hockey on campus either.

The Coliseum is as far away from Campus as the nearest fast food establishment. It is about a five minute walk from student dorms. Suitable practice rink.

bisonballs33
04-12-2010, 08:07 PM
They are not a minority. The flippin' Fargo Force outdrew the Bison basketball team 2 years in a row. They are a step down from D1 Hockey. What do you think the real thing would draw?

USHL is more than a step down from D1. Gabe, you make great points. I agree. Many others agree. Bottom line is, if Gene Taylor is here, it won't happen. He is committed to the projects he has already started. Which, really, is fair enough.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 08:07 PM
If this ever happened at NDSU, for Title IX it probably won't be women's hockey it would be equestrian, sand vb, etc. AND if you want money you concentrate on Men's Basketball, that's where the real money is at in college sports. Anything else is peanuts, period.

NDSU basketball will never even come close to consistantly producing the revenue hockey makes because they can't actually make a deep run. Look at this year. We made the tourney and we followed it up with declining attendance.

Yeah, once every 10 t0 20 years they could make a big run like UNI (and it will be phenomenal) but we all know we have no shot at contending on a regular basis.

Hockey, in time, could be a legit contender for the actual championship. Yeah it would take years and tons of hard work but it's much more realistic.

Explain the Force outdrawing the Bison Basketball team?

roadwarrior
04-12-2010, 08:26 PM
The Coliseum is as far away from Campus as the nearest fast food establishment. It is about a five minute walk from student dorms. Suitable practice rink.

Isn't the ice in the Coliseum smaller than the standard rink? I wouldn't want my team practicing a rink smaller than the one they play games on.

aces1180
04-12-2010, 08:38 PM
NDSU basketball will never even come close to consistantly producing the revenue hockey makes because they can't actually make a deep run. Look at this year. We made the tourney and we followed it up with declining attendance.

Yeah, once every 10 t0 20 years they could make a big run like UNI (and it will be phenomenal) but we all know we have no shot at contending on a regular basis.

Hockey, in time, could be a legit contender for the actual championship. Yeah it would take years and tons of hard work but it's much more realistic.

Explain the Force outdrawing the Bison Basketball team?

Alcohol sales?...Which would never fly at any NDSU athletic event (on or off campus). Most people treat the Force like a Redhawks game...It's a chance to socialize and drink.

tjbison
04-12-2010, 08:39 PM
Alcohol sales...Which would never fly at any NDSU athletic event (on or off campus).

and MORE games, they are still playing.


with that FBS before hockey for me!!!!!!

aces1180
04-12-2010, 08:41 PM
and MORE games, they are still playing.


with that FBS before hockey for me!!!!!!

Good point...More games and a nice arena.

When NDSU gets a new arena, they'll outdraw the Force regularly.

silkamilkamonico
04-12-2010, 08:46 PM
Alcohol sales?...Which would never fly at any NDSU athletic event (on or off campus). Most people treat the Force like a Redhawks game...It's a chance to socialize and drink.

Significantly.

There would still be a lot of people at those games, but as a longtime NDSU fan, I would be very upset if the athletic department compromised some of the success from the other sports, and took away funding from them to start funding hockey, and that would most absolutely happen, count on it.

Don't sell out your pride and tradition by getting NDSU hockey, please.

99Bison
04-12-2010, 08:47 PM
NDSU basketball will never even come close to consistantly producing the revenue hockey makes because they can't actually make a deep run. Look at this year. We made the tourney and we followed it up with declining attendance.

Yeah, once every 10 t0 20 years they could make a big run like UNI (and it will be phenomenal) but we all know we have no shot at contending on a regular basis.


If you are talking about money, it's not about going deep into the tournament consistently that makes you the money. It's about being in a conference that does occasionally and gets multiple members in. The payouts from the tournament are rediculous. And honestly if NDSU doesn't try to do this or be as good as they can at men's basketball they may as well punt as a being DI school, you are going to be mediorce at virtually everything if you try to participate without men's basketball being a focus.

This is just the beginning of reality in DI land, it's a long road and to succeed you need to understand the landscape and game, then continue to build for it.

------
Besides everyone knows the force will fold within 5 years unless individuals pump money in just to keep it going for the surrounding development. People attend right now because it is new still, look at the teams trying to make it up at the coleseum.

tjbison
04-12-2010, 08:48 PM
Alcohol sales?...Which would never fly at any NDSU athletic event (on or off campus). Most people treat the Force like a Redhawks game...It's a chance to socialize and drink.

I forgot to mention the $20 party Pit, includes ticket and all the free Keg beer you can drink for the entire game.

RedRiver
04-12-2010, 09:26 PM
NDSU basketball will never even come close to consistantly producing the revenue hockey makes because they can't actually make a deep run. Look at this year. We made the tourney and we followed it up with declining attendance.

Yeah, once every 10 t0 20 years they could make a big run like UNI (and it will be phenomenal) but we all know we have no shot at contending on a regular basis.

Hockey, in time, could be a legit contender for the actual championship. Yeah it would take years and tons of hard work but it's much more realistic.

Explain the Force outdrawing the Bison Basketball team?

Easy, the Force have a brand new arena and a very successfull first year. Bison basketball plays in a dump and the team was very down this year.

The Force only averaged 3200 fans this year down a few from the first year. I'd say that is very disappointing considering the new team, state of the art arena, and all of the free giveways.

Once the BSA remodel project is completed, then it will be legitimate to compare the Force and Bison basketball attendance, but not before.

By the way, NDSU does not need another minor DI sport.

NDSUstudent
04-12-2010, 10:05 PM
I went to about five Force games this year. I actually paid money to get into one of them, take those attendance numbers with a grain of salt.

If we add men's hockey I guarantee you that women's hockey will follow with it otherwise we could have a title 9 issue. At best women's hockey will live off the revenue the men's team produces and if the men's team doesn't produce....money will be taken from other programs to prop hockey up.

Hockey is the worst idea in the history of NDSU athletics and I am a hockey fan. Basketball is where the money and exposure is and it should be the king of our winter sports. Leave the hockey to the school up north.

The only reason MSUM wants hockey is because nobody cares about a single sport they have but if they add hockey it will be their biggest folly yet. They are in too many shadows and they can't raise enough money for the sports they have... what is going to happen when hockey can't produce?

I haven't even got into Bison basketball and hockey cannibalizing each other. The answer is to invest and invest heavily in basketball. I'd rather have NDSU spend millions on a FBS move then waste it on a niche sport like hockey.

HerdBot
04-12-2010, 10:32 PM
I went to about five Force games this year. I actually paid money to get into one of them, take those attendance numbers with a grain of salt.

If we add men's hockey I guarantee you that women's hockey will follow with it otherwise we could have a title 9 issue. At best women's hockey will live off the revenue the men's team produces and if the men's team doesn't produce....money will be taken from other programs to prop hockey up.

Hockey is the worst idea in the history of NDSU athletics and I am a hockey fan. Basketball is where the money and exposure is and it should be the king of our winter sports. Leave the hockey to the school up north.

The only reason MSUM wants hockey is because nobody cares about a single sport they have but if they add hockey it will be their biggest folly yet. They are in too many shadows and they can't raise enough money for the sports they have... what is going to happen when hockey can't produce?

I haven't even got into Bison basketball and hockey cannibalizing each other. The answer is to invest and invest heavily in basketball. I'd rather have NDSU spend millions on a FBS move then waste it on a niche sport like hockey.

OR... Hockey could become a monster, sell out every game, bring in new fans and donors that have no interest in football/basketball, and generate enough revenue to take the other sports to a much higher level and even help fund a new BSA. To satisfy title IX, beach volleyball would create a niche sport and could make money or break even.

It would probably fall somewhere in between which is progress.

aces1180
04-12-2010, 10:42 PM
OR... Hockey could become a monster, sell out every game, bring in new fans and donors that have no interest in football/basketball, and generate enough revenue to take the other sports to a much higher level and even help fund a new BSA. To satisfy title IX, beach volleyball would create a niche sport and could make money or break even.

It would probably fall somewhere in between which is progress.

Hockey could also kill sports like wrestling, baseball and golf at NDSU. The money needs to come from somewhere...We don't have a Ralph Engelstad-type donor. We can barely find enough funds to complete out basketball arena, so starting a brand-new program will be almost impossible unless someone steps up and drops AT LEAST $500,000-$750,000 in start-up costs alone.

Plus, the UP Center, though a nice place, will not be ideal for NDSU, as students won't want to drive (or ride the bus) the six miles or so to south Fargo on Friday and Saturday evenings. And assuming the Force continue to play there, good luck with scheduling.

It's a moot point anyway, because it's not going to (nor should it) happen.

NDSUstudent
04-12-2010, 10:50 PM
I think you are way overvaluing how much hockey will make at the UP and in a garbage conference(the WCHA is full). If hockey backers put $10 million on the table along with the WCHA I might listen but without either hockey will basically cripple our budget.

As for title IX, NDSU follows...Prong three - Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented sex.

If we add hockey, I am pretty sure that means we have to add women's hockey because of the sheer number of scholarships that are involved and the fact that "hockey" would be a sport of interest to women on campus it would be hard not to add it.

NDSU should be striving to go FBS(not now but in the future), we shouldn't be striving for hockey. If we had FBS football and quality basketball we would leave the other Dakota schools and especially UND in the dust. But if we add hockey it becomes difficult to add $5-10 million to budget to make an FBS move work, it is really hard to have any budget flexibility at all.

silkamilkamonico
04-12-2010, 10:51 PM
OR... Hockey could become a monster, sell out every game, bring in new fans and donors that have no interest in football/basketball, and generate enough revenue to take the other sports to a much higher level and even help fund a new BSA. To satisfy title IX, beach volleyball would create a niche sport and could make money or break even.

It would probably fall somewhere in between which is progress.

1)hockey could become a seller at NDSU, but probably to likely won't. I don't want to play Russian Roulette with our basketball program for hockey, and I'm sure that's the sentiments of a lot of other fans, as well as some of the administrators involved.

2)Beach Volleyball would have a "roster" of 2-4 people, hardly enough to offset the participation increase of men's hockey.

3)Beach Volleyball would not make money, especially considering we don't have a venue for it (which would need money, BTW, sand is insanely expensive, and the sand courts on campus are not only not regulation size courts, but the sand would be considered a safety issue in terms of the NCAA). Baseball doesn't make money, I'm not sure why anyone would think Beach Volleyball would.

4)Beach Volleyball would fail at NDSU IMHO. Recruiting? What facitilities? What sand volleyball player would want to play beach volleyball in the midwest, where the weather sucks, the wind is an extreme, and the sport is lost.

I understand you're trying to make an argument for hockey, but using a sport like Beach Volleyball, which isn't even an established NCAA sport yet, to ty and offset some of the issues coming along with NDSU hockey and then trying to create an argument for it is reaching IMHO. If NDSU started men's hockey, I don't see how you could not add women's, especially in terms of Title IX.

And I'm sorry, but more women's hockey? Women's hockey is painfully hard to watch, and I do like watching hockey.

99Bison
04-12-2010, 10:59 PM
Write this down. Equestrian would be NDSU's main answer to the title IX for hockey, not women's hockey.

The rest doesn't need to be beaten down anymore, most everyone gets the deal.

IronRanger
04-13-2010, 01:06 AM
Hockey could also kill sports like wrestling, baseball and golf at NDSU. The money needs to come from somewhere...We don't have a Ralph Engelstad-type donor. We can barely find enough funds to complete out basketball arena, so starting a brand-new program will be almost impossible unless someone steps up and drops AT LEAST $500,000-$750,000 in start-up costs alone.

This is a big thing with hockey, but that money is not enough for the year. If you are looking at bringing in a big time coach (Lucia,Blais, or Hakstol). Their base salary starts at $450,000. Than once you add equiptment costs, travel and ice time, you are looking at about a million or so per year. Than to be in complience with Title IX you need to add another 350-400 for womens hockey.


Plus, the UP Center, though a nice place, will not be ideal for NDSU, as students won't want to drive (or ride the bus) the six miles or so to south Fargo on Friday and Saturday evenings. And assuming the Force continue to play there, good luck with scheduling.

If I remember right this was an issue 4-5 years ago when SU was looking at a new arena for basketball, with the possibilities of building an area downtown. Correct me if I am wrong...but I think I am remembering correctly, that this is why this was shot down.


I think you are way overvaluing how much hockey will make at the UP and in a garbage conference(the WCHA is full). If hockey backers put $10 million on the table along with the WCHA I might listen but without either hockey will basically cripple our budget.

As for title IX, NDSU follows...Prong three - Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented sex.

If we add hockey, I am pretty sure that means we have to add women's hockey because of the sheer number of scholarships that are involved and the fact that "hockey" would be a sport of interest to women on campus it would be hard not to add it.

NDSU should be striving to go FBS(not now but in the future), we shouldn't be striving for hockey. If we had FBS football and quality basketball we would leave the other Dakota schools and especially UND in the dust. But if we add hockey it becomes difficult to add $5-10 million to budget to make an FBS move work, it is really hard to have any budget flexibility at all.

I agree totally with not adding hockey, until you could fully fund it and have admission into a quality conference. Even with so many UND fans in Fargo, I would tend to guess that they would still travel the hour to UND and not stay in town to watch hockey. If we were able to get into one of the main conferences and bring in quality opponents 3 of 4 weekends then I would say go for it....but until then, there are other sports that SU could add which cost less and than compete in all summit league sports.

tjbison
04-13-2010, 01:56 AM
F


B


S


Those three letters are the ONLY thing we need to add AFTER the new BBALL arena and all that good stuff

imabison
04-13-2010, 03:51 AM
Unless our new President has a newer bigger vision for NDSU and Gene Taylor does a 180, we won't see hockey. What bothers me is they have given up even attempting to get it. Money is the biggest obstacle but I honestly think if we come out and say it's on the radar, donors will show up and it won't cut into the other sports.

With the BSA project, new Track Facility, and some talk about refurbishing the Softball Facility just where do you think the money will come from?

I don't think you can say the Gene Taylor is not well aware of the hockey following in this area.

DjKyRo
04-13-2010, 03:54 AM
For how many years have we ridiculed UND's obsession with hockey? It's a niche sport that no one outside the northern states follows. it's going to be a bigger drain on our resources than it could potentially benefit. I'm perfectly ok with where hoops and football are going - pour the money into thse programs.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 04:37 AM
With the BSA project, new Track Facility, and some talk about refurbishing the Softball Facility just where do you think the money will come from?

I don't think you can say the Gene Taylor is not well aware of the hockey following in this area.

I do know this...

It takes money to make money and the donors won't come knocking unless we announce we're looking to add hockey. It's called leadership.

I recall us all having this same discussion when we were looking at makin the jump to D1. Many thought it was impossible to raise enough cash and now we're exceeding it.

Everyone seems so exited for a new softball facility and I respect that. But should a new softball facility should be a priority over hockey? Take a guess at the attendance of their last home softball game. It was 75. I don't see the books but that has to be a big time money loser. Sadly enough, they came off a phenemenal season. Why sink money into softball when nobody shows up for the games.

The Sioux Hockey team has 75 people it's it's restrooms for an exhibition game.

Hockey is a cash cow. It will not only sell tickets, it will eventually generate team makers memberships. Did you know that Club Hockey used to draw 2,000 fans back in the day when they were winning?

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 04:39 AM
For how many years have we ridiculed UND's obsession with hockey? It's a niche sport that no one outside the northern states follows. it's going to be a bigger drain on our resources than it could potentially benefit. I'm perfectly ok with where hoops and football are going - pour the money into thse programs.

Hockey is the only reason UND has other sports. It pays the bills. It's not a money loser. It's a cash cow. It was a cash cow even before they had the Ralph.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 05:08 AM
1)hockey could become a seller at NDSU, but probably to likely won't. I don't want to play Russian Roulette with our basketball program for hockey, and I'm sure that's the sentiments of a lot of other fans, as well as some of the administrators involved.

2)Beach Volleyball would have a "roster" of 2-4 people, hardly enough to offset the participation increase of men's hockey.

3)Beach Volleyball would not make money, especially considering we don't have a venue for it (which would need money, BTW, sand is insanely expensive, and the sand courts on campus are not only not regulation size courts, but the sand would be considered a safety issue in terms of the NCAA). Baseball doesn't make money, I'm not sure why anyone would think Beach Volleyball would.

4)Beach Volleyball would fail at NDSU IMHO. Recruiting? What facitilities? What sand volleyball player would want to play beach volleyball in the midwest, where the weather sucks, the wind is an extreme, and the sport is lost.

I understand you're trying to make an argument for hockey, but using a sport like Beach Volleyball, which isn't even an established NCAA sport yet, to ty and offset some of the issues coming along with NDSU hockey and then trying to create an argument for it is reaching IMHO. If NDSU started men's hockey, I don't see how you could not add women's, especially in terms of Title IX.

And I'm sorry, but more women's hockey? Women's hockey is painfully hard to watch, and I do like watching hockey.


Good point on beach volleyball and the number of scholarships but don't lose sight of the fact that even with womens hockey...IT'S A CASH COW! It pays the bills for the Sioux. It's the reason they were a force in Division 2. It's the reason why they will do do just fine as a D1 team. It was a cash cow before the Ralph was built and has gotten bigger since.

You really think having a hockey team would destroy baskeball? We can't say it's the future of the school yet have such little faith in it that a hockey team would kill it. Hockey will make so much money that it will help pay for a new arena.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 05:42 AM
Easy, the Force have a brand new arena and a very successfull first year. Bison basketball plays in a dump and the team was very down this year.

The Force only averaged 3200 fans this year down a few from the first year. I'd say that is very disappointing considering the new team, state of the art arena, and all of the free giveways.

Once the BSA remodel project is completed, then it will be legitimate to compare the Force and Bison basketball attendance, but not before.

By the way, NDSU does not need another minor DI sport.

The Force draw extremely well considering it is a developmental hockey league in a small market (compared to Omaha or Indianapolis). They draw in the top half of the league and have great fans.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 05:42 AM
Hockey could also kill sports like wrestling, baseball and golf at NDSU. The money needs to come from somewhere...We don't have a Ralph Engelstad-type donor. We can barely find enough funds to complete out basketball arena, so starting a brand-new program will be almost impossible unless someone steps up and drops AT LEAST $500,000-$750,000 in start-up costs alone.

Plus, the UP Center, though a nice place, will not be ideal for NDSU, as students won't want to drive (or ride the bus) the six miles or so to south Fargo on Friday and Saturday evenings. And assuming the Force continue to play there, good luck with scheduling.

It's a moot point anyway, because it's not going to (nor should it) happen.



Answer this... (keep in mind I'm playing devils advocate)

Everyone here is against hockey because it "doesn't make financial sense" (even though it's a cash cow) but they are deeply concerned about the facilities and the stability of sports that are lucky to draw 100 people per game and are losing a ton of money. (the reason we can't have D1 hockey even though it's a cash cow)

Would I be sad to see wrestling go if it means we get hockey? No. I've never once watched a wrestling match. I hear about how Bucky Maughn is a Hall Of Famer and he's won all these D2 championships... that's cool but honestly I'm just not interested. If I had the choice of dousing myself with gas and setting myself on fire or watching a wrestling match, I may choose the former.

Would I be sad to lose golf if it means we get hockey? No. Until recently, I didn't even realize Golf was an actual NCAA sport. Do they have a home? Where do they play at? I don't even watch professional golf!

As far as I'm concerned, the only legit sports are the ones that people actually watch...

Hockey would be right up there with baskeball with the potential to be as big as football.

The only potential Golf and Wrestling have is to not lose money.

My business plan is to drop 2 money losing mens sports to pay for the money womens hockey will lose to gain the money that mens hockey will make. Sounds like smart business to me.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 05:42 AM
I went to about five Force games this year. I actually paid money to get into one of them, take those attendance numbers with a grain of salt.

Students do not pay to get into any NDSU sporting events. Same thing.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 05:44 AM
If we add hockey, I am pretty sure that means we have to add women's hockey because of the sheer number of scholarships that are involved and the fact that "hockey" would be a sport of interest to women on campus it would be hard not to add it.

Only one gender at NDSU has soccer...

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 05:49 AM
It is funny that people are so against hockey because of EITHER they want FBS or they want an established Basketball program. Well, FBS would be pretty darn spendy, as would a great basketball program. If we are so tight on money, building the new (or edition) to the BSA would hurt football's chances of FBS and visa versa.

I totally understand the points. I love hockey. I would love to see it at NDSU. However, I know NDSU will not pull the trigger in the next 5-10 years. Just like basketball and football weren't built over night, hockey couldn't be either.

NDSUstudent
04-13-2010, 05:57 AM
Students do not pay to get into any NDSU sporting events. Same thing.

Students don't pay directly, but every students pays an activity fee. Money from that goes into athletics and is the reason why students don't have to pay for their tickets directly.

Not the same thing, not close.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 05:59 AM
It is funny that people are so against hockey because of EITHER they want FBS or they want an established Basketball program. Well, FBS would be pretty darn spendy, as would a great basketball program. If we are so tight on money, building the new (or edition) to the BSA would hurt football's chances of FBS and visa versa.

I totally understand the points. I love hockey. I would love to see it at NDSU. However, I know NDSU will not pull the trigger in the next 5-10 years. Just like basketball and football weren't built over night, hockey couldn't be either.

SOME people are so bitter over the Sioux that they have lost all objectivity. They can't even admit that Hockey is a big deal. In fact, they pretend that they hate hockey just because UND has a hockey team.

ndsubison1
04-13-2010, 06:15 AM
Only one gender at NDSU has soccer...

that's womens though

BlueBisonRock
04-13-2010, 06:51 AM
Answer this... (keep in mind I'm playing devils advocate)

Everyone here is against hockey because it "doesn't make financial sense" (even though it's a cash cow) but they are deeply concerned about the facilities and the stability of sports that are lucky to draw 100 people per game and are losing a ton of money. (the reason we can't have D1 hockey even though it's a cash cow)

Would I be sad to see wrestling go if it means we get hockey? No. I've never once watched a wrestling match. I hear about how Bucky Maughn is a Hall Of Famer and he's won all these D2 championships... that's cool but honestly I'm just not interested. If I had the choice of dousing myself with gas and setting myself on fire or watching a wrestling match, I may choose the former.

Would I be sad to lose golf if it means we get hockey? No. Until recently, I didn't even realize Golf was an actual NCAA sport. Do they have a home? Where do they play at? I don't even watch professional golf!

As far as I'm concerned, the only legit sports are the ones that people actually watch...

Hockey would be right up there with baskeball with the potential to be as big as football.

The only potential Golf and Wrestling have is to not lose money.

My business plan is to drop 2 money losing mens sports to pay for the money womens hockey will lose to gain the money that mens hockey will make. Sounds like smart business to me.

So we are talking to the Devil now are we? :D

I enjoy hockey. I watch it on FSN and follow both the Gophers and the Sioux. I took in my first hockey game while in college and had a great time. MD 20-20 and a short road trip were quite the experience. I also try to get to a game or two each season. Yes, I would love for NDSU to have a hockey team. When it is time. I do NOT support getting into this sport unless the commitments are in place to drive success from the get go without an impact to any other Bison sport.

I am not a big follower of golf. However, NDSU is gaining some significant visibility through its golf team and especially by the achievements of Amy Anderson. If you want visibility at a low cost, you have it here.

Your comment about wrestling really caught my attention. I made most of the home meets while in college and remember the Bison having a strong wrestling following as well as having excellent teams. Yes, the Bison had some real studs. I also follow High School wrestling and hockey in SE MN. You will find better conditioned athletes and a strong feeling of family in wrestling.

My only thought for you - should I help you find the gas or simply mail you a match? Your willingness to give up other sports to support hockey diminishes your arguement to me.

NDSUstudent
04-13-2010, 07:17 AM
SOME people are so bitter over the Sioux that they have lost all objectivity. They can't even admit that Hockey is a big deal. In fact, they pretend that they hate hockey just because UND has a hockey team.

None of us are bitter over the Sioux, our vision for where NDSU athletics should go is just different from yours. Hockey just isn't a priority and we don't see it as the right use of resources that we view could make a bigger impact if used for other sports.

DjKyRo
04-13-2010, 08:37 AM
I enjoy hockey just fine - at the pro level. I laugh at how big a deal the Siouxage pretend college hockey is when it has a fraction of the following college football and basketball do. Hockey is a cash cow? If your'e using a Force game as reference, bear in mind that football's raking in nearly 5 times the crowd the hockey games are - where's the money at?

Besides which, hockey would make significant money years if not decades after its founding, until which it would be a drain on other sports. I think you're seriously overestimating just how well a hockey program would fare - I haven't heard a lot of clamor for the Club Hockey team.

DORMIE
04-13-2010, 12:47 PM
I think that you'll find that more schools are dropping hockey that are adding it. About 56-58 play and over half of them are DII and DIII schools. I don't think we need to get into a pissing contest on our board as they have gotten into on SS over this matter. They're not too happy about giving up their logo for a POSSIBILITY of getting into the Summitt League. I wonder how many watched the championship game on Saturday night. Personally I was watching NASCAR.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 02:21 PM
So we are talking to the Devil now are we? :D

I enjoy hockey. I watch it on FSN and follow both the Gophers and the Sioux. I took in my first hockey game while in college and had a great time. MD 20-20 and a short road trip were quite the experience. I also try to get to a game or two each season. Yes, I would love for NDSU to have a hockey team. When it is time. I do NOT support getting into this sport unless the commitments are in place to drive success from the get go without an impact to any other Bison sport.

I am not a big follower of golf. However, NDSU is gaining some significant visibility through its golf team and especially by the achievements of Amy Anderson. If you want visibility at a low cost, you have it here.

Your comment about wrestling really caught my attention. I made most of the home meets while in college and remember the Bison having a strong wrestling following as well as having excellent teams. Yes, the Bison had some real studs. I also follow High School wrestling and hockey in SE MN. You will find better conditioned athletes and a strong feeling of family in wrestling.

My only thought for you - should I help you find the gas or simply mail you a match? Your willingness to give up other sports to support hockey diminishes your arguement to me.


Like I said, I was playing devils advocate... and I was trying to throw some humor into the mix.

But seriously though... from my point of view, I like the idea of adding a sport that I would watch vs keeping one that I don't. But being a fan of NDSU, I would hate to see the tradition of wrestling go away... even though I don't watch it.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 02:23 PM
None of us are bitter over the Sioux, our vision for where NDSU athletics should go is just different from yours. Hockey just isn't a priority and we don't see it as the right use of resources that we view could make a bigger impact if used for other sports.

I said "SOME people are bitter." Your not. I'm not. But SOME people are. I think we just differ in approach. I think hockey would increase revenue. You think it would drain it. It's probably somewhere in the middle.

HerdBot
04-13-2010, 02:26 PM
I enjoy hockey just fine - at the pro level. I laugh at how big a deal the Siouxage pretend college hockey is when it has a fraction of the following college football and basketball do. Hockey is a cash cow? If your'e using a Force game as reference, bear in mind that football's raking in nearly 5 times the crowd the hockey games are - where's the money at?

Besides which, hockey would make significant money years if not decades after its founding, until which it would be a drain on other sports. I think you're seriously overestimating just how well a hockey program would fare - I haven't heard a lot of clamor for the Club Hockey team.

Club hockey is not the real deal so mentioning it is not worth the time. I'm using the Sioux and other WCHA teams as reference to hockey being a cash cow. The Force are just another example. Yes, the attendence is lower than foootball but they play more games. Besides, we will be lucky if we get 5 home games this year. But compare hockey's draw to say, baseball or wrestling.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 02:40 PM
I think you're seriously overestimating just how well a hockey program would fare - I haven't heard a lot of clamor for the Club Hockey team.

The club hockey team is doing very well financially after pulling themselves out of roughly $40,000 of debt in six years.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 02:41 PM
I think that you'll find that more schools are dropping hockey that are adding it. About 56-58 play and over half of them are DII and DIII schools. I don't think we need to get into a pissing contest on our board as they have gotten into on SS over this matter. They're not too happy about giving up their logo for a POSSIBILITY of getting into the Summitt League. I wonder how many watched the championship game on Saturday night. Personally I was watching NASCAR.

There are 59 Division I hockey schools and 78 Division III schools that play hockey.

Hambone
04-13-2010, 02:41 PM
While I would like to see NDSU get some college hockey (I'm for anything that will grow the sport), I really don't see it happening. While it is a big money maker at UND, it really does cost a lot to start up. Additionally, the Title IX issue may be a bit spendy, unless they drop a couple mens sports to make up for the difference. I would focus on football and basketball if I were in NDSU's shoes, which appears to be what they want to do as well. I will say, however, that in the long run hockey could be a pretty good money maker as it makes a great deal of money at UND.....

RedRiver
04-13-2010, 02:43 PM
I could see NDSU adding hockey in the future if it were truly a DI college sport.

I'd love to see DI programs like the Gophers and Badgers coming to Fargo every other weekend. But that isn't the norm for college hockey. The fact is there would be way more of the DII & DIII institutions such as Colorado College, St. Cloud, Mankato St., Northern Michigan, Bemidji St., Nebraska Omaha, Ferris St., Minnesota Duluth and Rochester Institute of Technology that would be coming to Fargo.

I would have no interest in having NDSU associated with those insitutions, especially in a regional niche college sport.

Ferd
04-13-2010, 02:48 PM
They are not a minority. The flippin' Fargo Force outdrew the Bison basketball team 2 years in a row. They are a step down from D1 Hockey. What do you think the real thing would draw?

Do those attendance figures include the tickets they give away? Just asking.

bisonballs33
04-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Do those attendance figures include the tickets they give away? Just asking.

Yeah, they usually do. However, Bison Basketball and Football giveaway quite a few tickets to local media (radio stations, etc.). The Force haven't done huge giveaways this year because fans are actually showing up. 96,000 fans for the regular season. We have gotten up to about 102,000 now with playoffs. Even though that is 32 total games, that is significant.

Ferd
04-13-2010, 03:10 PM
Yeah, they usually do. However, Bison Basketball and Football giveaway quite a few tickets to local media (radio stations, etc.). The Force haven't done huge giveaways this year because fans are actually showing up. 96,000 fans for the regular season. We have gotten up to about 102,000 now with playoffs. Even though that is 32 total games, that is significant.

Thanks for the information. I was only questioning because someone earlier mentioned that they had been to 5 games and actually paid for 1. As a point of discussion we should be talking about net income comparisons since the number of games, size of venue, availability of beer, are all variables that are different.

As far as Title IX is concerned we need to be talking number of scholarships, I think.

FWIW, I enjoy hockey and would definitely attend some NDSU hockey games but I doubt I could afford season tickets like I have for football and basketball.

I just think we need to be looking at dollars and scholarships in making such a decision. I would also like to be sure we have a good grip on our existing facility improvement situation before we bite off another mouthful.

Facts
04-14-2010, 03:22 AM
Disclaimer: Hockey is my favorite sport (played, coached, blah blah blah)

I would love to see NDSU with hockey, it could be a huge draw, it might actually make money, and based simply on location, it might not take that long for the program to be very successful. The problem is, none of those reasons (my love for the sport, it selling tickets, it being a money maker, or it being very successful relatively quickly) are good for NDSU. All you really need to do is look to the north to see an example of what a dominant niche sport doesn’t do for an athletic department. A dominant niche sport doesn’t bring REAL natural recognition, because nobody really cares; a dominant niche sport doesn’t help with recruiting in sports the nation actually care about; and a dominant niche sport doesn’t help put fans in the seats for sports the nation actually care about, especially when the niche sport has a game on the same day. What a dominant niche sport will do is put fans in the seats for niche sport games; a dominant niche sport will also distract from the progress of sports that are nationally popular; and a dominant niche sport will provide a university and an entire body of people with a false sense of importance.

NDSU has decided (at this moment) to let the Northern U. have hockey and run with it. In the end hockey success translates to nationally popular sports mediocrity because there simply aren’t enough fans or funds to go around for both. If NDSU wants to continue to gain national recognition in sports 99% of the USA actually care about and understand, it’d be wise to delay a hockey addition for years to come, and not be spread too thin. Football and basketball coaches up north agree.

turbo700
04-14-2010, 04:45 AM
As alumni I believe it is time to get hockey going to NDSU in the mid to late 80's we had tremendous success in football, but a lot of students went to club hockey games not knowing much about hockey it was like nothing I seen before the speed, the skill, and of course the fights!

UND going to DI in all other sports is going to dilute the talent pool around us. ex-If there is 4 Di talent basketball or football kids in the state 2 will go to und. We will have two So So DI schools in the state. I don't see us going to the NCAA Basketball tournament in the next 20 years!

Hockey is a Niche sport but its also growing very fast. NBC and Versus are have outstanding ratings up 30% this year. We should do it while we are on up trend If hockey is for up north why is there NHL teams spread from Nashville to Georgia and Florida!

What you don't realize we a DI talent right around here! We can be competitive in 5 years or sooner. You don't have to go to the big city's and look for needles in the haystack! Might be our only chance at a National championship less competition and good talent around. Keep it all American!

all you nay Sayers do yourself a favor. Learn the game, know what the blue lines are for, Red lines Icing. Go rent some skates and grab a stick! Open your mind. Who knows maybe one of us Alumni will show up with a wheel barrel full of cash for hockey!

ndsubison1
04-14-2010, 05:38 AM
Do I hate hockey? No. But I do loathe the people who are good at it. I can skate but I just suck at the stick part haha

Does hockey have a future here at NDSU? Possibly. But it wont be for awhile. At least that's what I hope. I dont want our new president or new athletic director of the near future (Assuming Taylor leaves for a new job sometime) to go into it without the proper research or funding. Which I dont think they will, but who knows.

This topic is beating a dead horse. It's not that we hate hockey or something it's because we understand the financial ramifications that comes with college hockey. It requires much funding and would take plenty of $$$ to start it up and get it rolling. Recruiting, fan support, funding would take a lot for a start up program. Recruiting would be tough to start with there already being quite a few D1 programs in the area. Could hockey make money for us? Yes. But not for at least a decade, probably even more.

Basketball is a top priority if not the top priority right now. All it takes is one Sweet 16 run and your program could be set for life. You will bring in millions from that run alone. It could transform your program. Because of it you get different types of recruits looking at your school. Look at Butler, I am sure because of this season they will have recruits in the next few classes considering them when they wouldnt have dared to even think about them. And they'll get a few.

Hockey is a big risk. Basketball has the most to gain and the least to lose of any collegiate sport. I want to be nice and courteous and say once some of the programs we have in place are better funded and improve overall and once the BSA gets renovated and other facilities are built (baseball/softball practice field, softball complex, among other things) then we can develop and start up a hockey program. But I cant. I actually dont want to see hockey here at NDSU. I dont want a program just because UND has a successful one. I want to be known as something different. Not the school that tried to be like UND. I want us to be known as a bball/football school. And most importantly, I dont want hockey to take away from other programs. Programs that we already have in place and we are working on improving.

Ok rant done... :)

gotts
04-14-2010, 05:41 AM
As alumni I believe it is time to get hockey going to NDSU in the mid to late 80's we had tremendous success in football, but a lot of students went to club hockey games not knowing much about hockey it was like nothing I seen before the speed, the skill, and of course the fights!

UND going to DI in all other sports is going to dilute the talent pool around us. ex-If there is 4 Di talent basketball or football kids in the state 2 will go to und. We will have two So So DI schools in the state. I don't see us going to the NCAA Basketball tournament in the next 20 years!

Hockey is a Niche sport but its also growing very fast. NBC and Versus are have outstanding ratings up 30% this year. We should do it while we are on up trend If hockey is for up north why is there NHL teams spread from Nashville to Georgia and Florida!

What you don't realize we a DI talent right around here! We can be competitive in 5 years or sooner. You don't have to go to the big city's and look for needles in the haystack! Might be our only chance at a National championship less competition and good talent around. Keep it all American!

all you nay Sayers do yourself a favor. Learn the game, know what the blue lines are for, Red lines Icing. Go rent some skates and grab a stick! Open your mind. Who knows maybe one of us Alumni will show up with a wheel barrel full of cash for hockey!

Just wondering how much you've been paying attention the the respective recruiting for basketball and football because I strongly disagree with the bolded portion of the above quote. The talent pool in state is already diluted as it is, thus the focus on out-state recruiting (Minnesota, chiefly). I don't buy the splitting of recruits angle you're pitching.

I challenge you to learn the landscape and makeup of college basketball, especially the parity that can occur across mid and low major conferences. Learn the intricacies of how the Summit League works. Look at the recruiting that takes place. 20 years is a long time and I'd bet my money that the Bison go to the NCAA Basketball tournament well within that timeframe.

Just because hockey exists professionally in Arizona, Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida, it doesn't mean it exists well. Take the Phoenix Coyotes, for instance. Talk about a franchise that has absolutely shit the bed financially in recent times!

As much as I'd like to see hockey at NDSU, it's a bit ridiculous to say that a startup program would be competitive in 5 years, unless your definition of competitive is struggling to keep your head above the water. I'd say this is more of a pipe dream than anything.

NDSUFan_Sav
04-14-2010, 06:05 AM
Turbo700, who the hell are you????

you think a start-up program will be successful in 5 years and you don't think we'll make the dance in 20 years??? http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/srsly-47667.jpg

NDSUstudent
04-14-2010, 06:05 AM
Regional DI hockey teams...

Minnesota, UND, UMD, Mankato, St. Cloud, and Bemidji.

Regional DI basketball teams

Minnesota, NDSU, SDSU, USD, and UND

By my count there is one more hockey team. All of these teams are also in the WCHA and are well established. I know people like to think we will be more competitive in hockey due to our location but the reality is that there is a ton of competition and no guarantee that talented players will flock to us just because we add hockey.

In basketball there is a ton of talent in MN and just one instate school(Tubby takes at most 2 MN kids a year). Like we saw with the Woodside class if you can put four good to great players on the court you can go places so spare me the no NCAA tournament for 20 years BS. We can bring in talent and we can win.

One more point...In 2007 UND played BC on ESPN(in primetime) in the semis of the Frozen Four. The game had a TV rating of 0.2(1 rating point equals 1.1 million viewers). For comparison sake the FCS semifinal game between Montana and App State received a 1.9 rating. So honestly what are we getting by adding hockey?

When we won the Summit League title in basketball we were the lead on sportscenter. If you want to see NCAA hockey highlights you better make a sandwich because you will be waiting. Might want to set the DVR as well because if you blink you might miss them.

bisonballs33
04-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Look at Butler, I am sure because of this season they will have recruits in the next few classes considering them when they wouldnt have dared to even think about them. And they'll get a few.

Butler has been a really, really good team for several years. They have been a six seed or better many times before this season. I know people love basketball and football, and that's fine. However, we are several years from a legitimate run in either sport.

ndsubison1
04-15-2010, 12:36 AM
Just in 2005 Butler was 13-15 and 16-14 in 2004. But because of some of their Sweet 16 runs in previous years they got some great recruits such as Gordon Hayward, Willie Veasley, Shelvin Mack, AJ Graves, Mike Green to name a few. All it takes is one or two runs and you could be set. That was my point.

Football can make a run at anytime. Bball it may take a few seasons. But you never know. Our bball team can get to the tourney any season and that's all it takes. That was one of my points.

NDSUstudent
04-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Just in 2005 Butler was 13-15 and 16-14 in 2004. But because of some of their Sweet 16 runs in previous years they got some great recruits such as Gordon Hayward, Willie Veasley, Shelvin Mack, AJ Graves, Mike Green to name a few. All it takes is one or two runs and you could be set. That was my point.

Football can make a run at anytime. Bball it may take a few seasons. But you never know. Our bball team can get to the tourney any season and that's all it takes. That was one of my points.

Yeah just look at Ohio, they weren't even .500 in the MAC and they took down Gtown in round 1. It doesn't take the greatest team in school history to win a game in the dance, just the right match up and perhaps a good night of shooting from beyond the arc.

HerdBot
04-15-2010, 05:31 AM
Regional DI hockey teams...

Minnesota, UND, UMD, Mankato, St. Cloud, and Bemidji.

Regional DI basketball teams

Minnesota, NDSU, SDSU, USD, and UND

By my count there is one more hockey team. All of these teams are also in the WCHA and are well established. I know people like to think we will be more competitive in hockey due to our location but the reality is that there is a ton of competition and no guarantee that talented players will flock to us just because we add hockey.

In basketball there is a ton of talent in MN and just one instate school(Tubby takes at most 2 MN kids a year). Like we saw with the Woodside class if you can put four good to great players on the court you can go places so spare me the no NCAA tournament for 20 years BS. We can bring in talent and we can win.

One more point...In 2007 UND played BC on ESPN(in primetime) in the semis of the Frozen Four. The game had a TV rating of 0.2(1 rating point equals 1.1 million viewers). For comparison sake the FCS semifinal game between Montana and App State received a 1.9 rating. So honestly what are we getting by adding hockey?

When we won the Summit League title in basketball we were the lead on sportscenter. If you want to see NCAA hockey highlights you better make a sandwich because you will be waiting. Might want to set the DVR as well because if you blink you might miss them.


We know that Hockey isn't big time ratings but SOMETHING on a consistant basis is good but obviously it will never touch the national ratings we got. But there is more to it than national ratings. It's the regional ratings that really count and make an impact. We get most of our players from ND/MN/WI and they actually watch hockey. When UND and Minnesota play it is heavily covered all througout Minneapolis, which is our main recruiting area. There is a nice writeup in the Star Trib. It's on the Big Ten Network. They even talk about it on KFAN. It gets big time press in important spots. Coverage overlaps into Wisconsin and Iowa too. An ESPN game is an added bonus but having 200K viewers is actually pretty good since the state of ND only has 600K.

I see you point on national recruting but we have to accept the fact that we're going to get most of our players in the 3 state area and we're not going to get recruits from other states on a CONSISTANT basis. That's where we need to market to.

HerdBot
04-15-2010, 05:36 AM
Disclaimer: Hockey is my favorite sport (played, coached, blah blah blah)

I would love to see NDSU with hockey, it could be a huge draw, it might actually make money, and based simply on location, it might not take that long for the program to be very successful. The problem is, none of those reasons (my love for the sport, it selling tickets, it being a money maker, or it being very successful relatively quickly) are good for NDSU. All you really need to do is look to the north to see an example of what a dominant niche sport doesn’t do for an athletic department. A dominant niche sport doesn’t bring REAL natural recognition, because nobody really cares; a dominant niche sport doesn’t help with recruiting in sports the nation actually care about; and a dominant niche sport doesn’t help put fans in the seats for sports the nation actually care about, especially when the niche sport has a game on the same day. What a dominant niche sport will do is put fans in the seats for niche sport games; a dominant niche sport will also distract from the progress of sports that are nationally popular; and a dominant niche sport will provide a university and an entire body of people with a false sense of importance.

NDSU has decided (at this moment) to let the Northern U. have hockey and run with it. In the end hockey success translates to nationally popular sports mediocrity because there simply aren’t enough fans or funds to go around for both. If NDSU wants to continue to gain national recognition in sports 99% of the USA actually care about and understand, it’d be wise to delay a hockey addition for years to come, and not be spread too thin. Football and basketball coaches up north agree.

It's big where it cuonts...in ND/MN/WI and that's where we get most of our players. That's where we get most of our students, whoose tution supports the university. It's great marketing. They see the Sioux/Gophers on Big Ten Network and they immediatley remember UND.

Facts
04-15-2010, 02:02 PM
It's big where it cuonts...in ND/MN/WI and that's where we get most of our players. That's where we get most of our students, whoose tution supports the university. It's great marketing. They see the Sioux/Gophers on Big Ten Network and they immediatley remember UND.

Still... a regional niche sport. And that doesn't count nationally, and it's not NSDU's vision for success.

You could say the same thing about some east coast lacrosse power (I honestly can't think of a team). Lacrosse is huge out there... but doesn't matter a lick here.

tjbison
04-15-2010, 02:24 PM
Still... a regional niche sport. And that doesn't count nationally, and it's not NSDU's vision for success.

You could say the same thing about some east coast lacrosse power (I honestly can't think of a team). Lacrosse is huge out there... but doesn't matter a lick here.

25,800 fans at the #1 Virginia vs #2 North Carolina showdown on April 11th

It has more fans and following than Hockey withour a doubt

http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-lacros/recaps/041110aaa.html

HerdBot
04-15-2010, 03:40 PM
25,800 fans at the #1 Virginia vs #2 North Carolina showdown on April 11th

It has more fans and following than Hockey withour a doubt

http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-lacros/recaps/041110aaa.html

Bohl said our recruiting has suffered because we've gone off path and went away from ND/MN/WI and have been stretched too thin. I think if we can get a few players in the NHL it will reflect positively on NDSU and gain additional press. If it's successful, I can't think of any reasons how it will hurt us and I can see quite a few ways it will benefit us. I don't think we'll ever see a day in which we are going to be attracting the best national players outside of the region on a consistant basis. Maybe we could branch out to Illinois and Michigan but it's just a reality of being in North Dakota.

Twentysix
04-15-2010, 06:06 PM
They are not a minority. The flippin' Fargo Force outdrew the Bison basketball team 2 years in a row. They are a step down from D1 Hockey. What do you think the real thing would draw?

Fargo Force tickets are also free-$5 on a day that doesnt have a stipulation.

Only retards and rich people pay more than $5 for a force ticket.

If Admission to an NDSU basketball game was free you would see alot higher numbers with no gain for NDSU.

tjbison
04-15-2010, 06:08 PM
Fargo Force tickets are also free-$5 on a day that doesnt have a stipulation.

Only retards and rich people pay more than $5 for a force ticket.

If Admission to an NDSU basketball game was free you would see alot higher numbers with no gain for NDSU.

Do I count as the retard or rich for paying $20 bucks for the party pit???:confused: :hide:

Twentysix
04-15-2010, 06:08 PM
NDSU basketball will never even come close to consistantly producing the revenue hockey makes because they can't actually make a deep run. Look at this year. We made the tourney and we followed it up with declining attendance.

Yeah, once every 10 t0 20 years they could make a big run like UNI (and it will be phenomenal) but we all know we have no shot at contending on a regular basis.

Hockey, in time, could be a legit contender for the actual championship. Yeah it would take years and tons of hard work but it's much more realistic.

Explain the Force outdrawing the Bison Basketball team?

tickets are between 5 dollars and free. The arena they play in is brand new and exciting.

Twentysix
04-15-2010, 06:37 PM
Do I count as the retard or rich for paying $20 bucks for the party pit???:confused: :hide:

The party pit is a beer buffet yes? 20 dollars seems fair to me.

And your a rich retard for the record. :P

ndsubison1
04-15-2010, 07:06 PM
$5 tickets oh no. i bet the stands are filled with fargo's elite upper class

bisonballs33
04-15-2010, 08:16 PM
25,800 fans at the #1 Virginia vs #2 North Carolina showdown on April 11th

It has more fans and following than Hockey withour a doubt

http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-lacros/recaps/041110aaa.html

There were over 39,000 fans at RIT vs. Wisconsin in the Frozen Four.

tjbison
04-15-2010, 08:37 PM
There were over 39,000 fans at RIT vs. Wisconsin in the Frozen Four.

This was just a conference game in the ACC;)

TheBisonator
04-15-2010, 10:12 PM
I had a big post written out, then it got deleted. I'm gonna address the argument that the Force get more in attendance than Bison hoops.

The point is that the Force draw 3,300 per game for a decent team in a brand-spanking new hockey palace.

NDSU basketball was barely mediocre last year and drew 2,800 per game in a POS wooden bleacher gym.

Assume that the Force stay within (give-or-take) 3,500 per game in the future. Put NDSU basketball in a brand-new basketball palace, or even a completely rebuilt BSA, and all of a sudden you have NDSU basketball attendance ahead of Force hockey by at least 75 percent (1 3/4 to 1).

The point is simply that the Force are in circumstances that have made their attendance at optimum level, while NDSU basketball is in curcumstances where their attendance is in the bare minimum of capability. People, I have talked to MANY people locally who tell me STRAIGHT-UP that they will not go to an NDSU basketball game, simply because the arena is a pile of puke. They will maybe go to 1 game a year, while they may go to almost every game if we had a nice place to play basketball.

And the Force only outdraw Bison hoops by less than 500.

Take the 7,000-seat McLeod Center at UNI, clone it, move it up to Fargo and attach it to the FFD, and instantly NDSU hoops almost has TWICE the average attendance of the Force. I GUARANTEE IT.


And now, as for hockey at NDSU, I'd rather see us in the Valley for all sports or going FBS, but that's just me. (And probably the large majority of Bison fans)

tjbison
04-16-2010, 12:43 AM
And now, as for hockey at NDSU, I'd rather see us in the Valley for all sports or going FBS, but that's just me. (And probably the large majority of Bison fans)

I jumped on this Bandwagon the minute we got accepted into the Gateway, and I ain't bailing unless something better were to come up

KC Bison
04-28-2010, 11:15 PM
A little over 3 million people attended DI hockey games (with lots of DII or DIII teams) in 2008. The NCAA hasn't even bothered to tabulating the 2009 numbers yet. Nearly 28 million attended DI basketball games in 2009. Yes I know that there are more basketball teams than hockey team but also remember that hockey teams play upwards of 45 games in a year vs about 30 games a year for basketball, unless you make a deep run into the tournament. If you want to adjust the attendance upward by 50 percent to account the higher number of games in hockey, basketball attendance would be over 40 million games. Hockey is small potatoes everywhere else in the country but upper midwest and a few states in the northeast. KC has zero coverage on college hockey and I'm not even sure if the Dl tournament is over for hockey and if it is, who won. I don't think college hockey even got covered in the Forum after their beloved suzies lost.

Do we really want basketball in NDSU to sink to the depths of suzy basketball. I for one will never support NDSU tiddle-winks on ice.

VanClubPres
04-29-2010, 12:51 AM
As a die hard Jets fan, and a once or twice Ice Sharks fan, and a once or twice FM Bees fan and a once Fargo Freeze fan and even reading about teh FM Bears (I am sure that some of you know that team), I could only assume that like all Leauge teams before, the Force would die....I guess so far I a wrong.

Two years and two natl champ series. Not too shabby.

That said, we would get out-recruited out our arses if we went head to head with the Who?

I would love to see another NDSU sport on campus, but I think this is an instance where we just step back and revel in our history.

bisonpride
04-30-2010, 03:11 PM
As a die hard Jets fan, and a once or twice Ice Sharks fan, and a once or twice FM Bees fan and a once Fargo Freeze fan and even reading about teh FM Bears (I am sure that some of you know that team), I could only assume that like all Leauge teams before, the Force would die....I guess so far I a wrong.


The difference, a new arena. The colliseum was so outdated. As for the Beez it was held at the civic center trying to compete at the same time against NDSU basketball and HS basketball. The Fever, see above but in a 1/4th full FargoDome 100 feet from the court.

The Force are doing well because of a new arena, beer sales, and winning.

If NDSU had an updated arena for basketball it would without a doubt be outdrawing the Force even without beer. I went to only 2 mens games this year because of the arena. I would rather listen on the radio then have to make a chiropractor appointment for every Monday following home games from sitting on those wooden bleachers. I am not even going to get into the awful speaker system. The BSA makes those who go to a game once never want to go back.

SDbison
04-30-2010, 06:23 PM
The difference, a new arena. The colliseum was so outdated. As for the Beez it was held at the civic center trying to compete at the same time against NDSU basketball and HS basketball. The Fever, see above but in a 1/4th full FargoDome 100 feet from the court.

The Force are doing well because of a new arena, beer sales, and winning.

If NDSU had an updated arena for basketball it would without a doubt be outdrawing the Force even without beer. I went to only 2 mens games this year because of the arena. I would rather listen on the radio then have to make a chiropractor appointment for every Monday following home games from sitting on those wooden bleachers. I am not even going to get into the awful speaker system. The BSA makes those who go to a game once never want to go back.
So can I presume you are essentially saying "the BSA Sucks!"
My prediction....when NDSU finally gets the new BSA built average basketball attendence will double and then some.

BisoninNWMN
05-09-2010, 03:34 PM
So can I presume you are essentially saying "the BSA Sucks!"
My prediction....when NDSU finally gets the new BSA built average basketball attendance will double and then some.

SD...I disagree.

I don't follow Bison BB much but even with our "dream team" last year....what did we ave for attendence? I'm sure many BB fans on here will say it was the "poor BB facilities" we have for the attendance we have. Did we even ave 3K for men's BB? Will our ave BB attendance double with a new arena??
We need to have successful teams to attract people....and having teams that are .500 or below will not do that. Our BB teams will never consistently go to the NCAA tourney; we will field a "tourney potential" team once every decade, IMO. But on the other hand, in BB, you only need to win 3 conference tourney games and you are in the NCAAs.

BB is more popular nationally and has more potential $$ with the TV contract but hockey could be successful at NDSU. I would buy hockey season tickets if we had it, in a heart beat.

I would love hockey here but realistically let's stick to FB and BB as our "major" sports.

...and on a side note....IMO, wrestling has a lot of potential here.....we'll see!!

GO BISON

Hammersmith
05-09-2010, 03:48 PM
SD...I disagree.

I don't follow Bison BB much but even with our "dream team" last year....what did we ave for attendence? I'm sure many BB fans on here will say it was the "poor BB facilities" we have for the attendance we have. Did we even ave 3K for men's BB? Will our ave BB attendance double with a new arena??
We need to have successful teams to attract people....and having teams that are .500 or below will not do that. Our BB teams will never consistently go to the NCAA tourney; we will field a "tourney potential" team once every decade, IMO. But on the other hand, in BB, you only need to win 3 conference tourney games and you are in the NCAAs.

BB is more popular nationally and has more potential $$ with the TV contract but hockey could be successful at NDSU. I would buy hockey season tickets if we had it, in a heart beat.

I would love hockey here but realistically let's stick to FB and BB as our "major" sports.

...and on a side note....IMO, wrestling has a lot of potential here.....we'll see!!

GO BISON

An average a bit over 3500 last year.

BisoninNWMN
05-09-2010, 05:28 PM
An average a bit over 3500 last year.

Could we or will we ave 7K when the BSA is remodeled?
Will it seat 7K?

Hopefully it does draw more fans out to see the BB teams.