Butler Duke

[tjbison]

Can't believe no one is discussing this Duke 60 Butler 59 49 seconds left Duke with the ball

[tjbison]

Duke Wins:banghead:

[BisBison]

my oh my what a game. Too bad for mid-majors, but I had Duke in a pool so good for BisBison

[onbison09]

That shot not going in was like being kicked in the balls repeatedly. The little guy vs the Evil Empire. Hell of an effort though. How sweet would that've been if that would've gone in? Goddamn.

[G-city Bison Fan]

my oh my what a game. Too bad for mid-majors, but I had Duke in a pool so good for BisBison

No doubt....Gotta love being First in the Bisonville ESPN pool :)

[sambini]

Great game right down to the wire.

[MNLonghorn10]

damnit. wish butler would've won it.

[onbison09]

Move over Cowboys. We have a new America's team. The University of Butler Bulldogs.

[ndsubison1]

To all the Dook haters... they'll be one of the best again next year

[MNLonghorn10]

To all the Dook haters... they'll be one of the best again next year

butlers goin lose 1 starter(not even close to their best player), and that jukes dude.

everyone else comes back. theyll be a force next year if(he will) stephens stays

[TheDoctor]

I am still flying high! I completely understand all the upset people out there tonight, it would have been a beautiful story. If it was anyone other than Duke, I am a Butler fan too. Congrats to Coach K on #4! My Blue Devils tattoo is smiling proud tonight! ;)

[ndsubison1]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/if-basketball-had-a-bcs-system

[ndsubison1]

Not trying to take anything away from Duke... just feels like the two best teams were not in the championship this season. Just does. Duke had an easy road to get there, never had to play Kentucky or Kansas or a Syracuse. Oh well, they did it. Congrats.

[mebisonII]

Put this in a different thread before I saw this one:

Would have been cool if the local CBS affiliate hadn't lost power to a transmitter with 10 min left in the game. I did get logged on online streaming in time to see the last two shot attempts from Haywood rim out. If that half-court shot had dropped that would have gone down as one of the all-time great MBB moments.

[onbison09]

Put this in a different thread before I saw this one:

Would have been cool if the local CBS affiliate hadn't lost power to a transmitter with 10 min left in the game. I did get logged on online streaming in time to see the last two shot attempts from Haywood rim out. If that half-court shot had dropped that would have gone down as one of the all-time great MBB moments.

Wow that sucks for people who don't has access to a computer.

[onbison09]

If 54 would've made even 2 of those bunnies at the beginning they win. God he has to be kicking himself. You gotta feel for the losing team in these situations. I would even feel for Duke. Skip forward to 2:55 and you'll see how I felt when they shot didn't go in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDiGHJZsmA

[Ferd]

If 54 would've made even 2 of those bunnies at the beginning they win. God he has to be kicking himself. You gotta feel for the losing team in these situations. I would even feel for Duke. Skip forward to 2:55 and you'll see how I felt when they shot didn't go in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDiGHJZsmA

Of course if they had connected on more free throws it coulda been different, also. But then, if cows could fly.....

I thought the Butler players were very classy even after the loss. They stood around just shaking their heads about how close they came. But... There's always next year!

[mebisonII]

Of course if they had connected on more free throws it coulda been different, also. But then, if cows could fly.....

I thought the Butler players were very classy even after the loss. They stood around just shaking their heads about how close they came. But... There's always next year!

Yeah, the little tiny bit I saw (see above comment about TV cutting out) I didn't see any pictures of them laying on the floor crying while being consoled by some assistant coach. I saw a lot of that during this tournament and thought the melodrama got annoying.

[onbison09]

butlers goin lose 1 starter(not even close to their best player), and that jukes dude.

everyone else comes back. theyll be a force next year if(he will) stephens stays

Nice. :nod:

[TheDoctor]

If 54 would've made even 2 of those bunnies at the beginning they win. God he has to be kicking himself. You gotta feel for the losing team in these situations. I would even feel for Duke. Skip forward to 2:55 and you'll see how I felt when they shot didn't go in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDiGHJZsmA

#54 had bad karma all night based off the fact he was going to do what he ultimately did do at the end, KO Kyle Singler with an unbelievable pick complete with elbows shoulders and arms, right under his chin. Dirty, dirty, dirty. Take nothing away from the rest of the team especially Hayward and their unbelievable play the whole tourney. Those elbows were UNBELIEVABLE!

actual hit is 40 second mark...quality is poor, but hit is bone jarring on the DVR. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDmW988_5Jg

BTW.....the 2:55 mark in your video is EXACTLY what Singler felt like after Howards forearms were tattoo'd under his chin during the same exact play!

[MNLonghorn10]

If 54 would've made even 2 of those bunnies at the beginning they win. God he has to be kicking himself. You gotta feel for the losing team in these situations. I would even feel for Duke. Skip forward to 2:55 and you'll see how I felt when they shot didn't go in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDiGHJZsmA

dont know if howard was still having after effects of a minor concussion, but he had some really stupid fouls, and some bunnies he shouldve made 10 times out of 10.

just imagine if that shot went in....itd be one of the shots of our lifetimes.

[onbison09]

#54 had bad karma all night based off the fact he was going to do what he ultimately did do at the end, KO Kyle Singler with an unbelievable pick complete with elbows shoulders and arms, right under his chin. Dirty, dirty, dirty. Take nothing away from the rest of the team especially Hayward and their unbelievable play the whole tourney. Those elbows were UNBELIEVABLE!

actual hit is 40 second mark...quality is poor, but hit is bone jarring on the DVR. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDmW988_5Jg

BTW.....the 2:55 mark in your video is EXACTLY what Singler felt like after Howards forearms were tattoo'd under his chin during the same exact play!
Yeah Howard played stupid the whole game.

[bisonaudit]

I think that Coach Stevens (Butler) made himself a whole lot of bank over the last three weekends.

Not sure why Duke went the intentional miss route at the end. I understand that the thinking is not to allow the opponent two run the baseline or run a set play but if you make the free throw the worst case scenario is overtime. Instead, probably because they're well coached and saw the Michigan St. game the weekend before Butler was able to run a play and get a shot on the rim (to win the game) even on the rebound.

Check me if I'm wrong but I think that the Michigan St. scenario was a 1 point game when they missed on purpose.

[ndsubison1]

I think that Coach Stevens (Butler) made himself a whole lot of bank over the last three weekends.

Not sure why Duke went the intentional miss route at the end. I understand that the thinking is not to allow the opponent two run the baseline or run a set play but if you make the free throw the worst case scenario is overtime. Instead, probably because they're well coached and saw the Michigan St. game the weekend before Butler was able to run a play and get a shot on the rim (to win the game) even on the rebound.

Check me if I'm wrong but I think that the Michigan St. scenario was a 1 point game when they missed on purpose.

Yeah, I like the play but 3.6 seconds is WAY too much time to be missing on purpose

[bisonaudit]

Yeah, I like the play but 3.6 seconds is WAY too much time to be missing on purpose

My issue wasn't with the clock, though I do take your point, but the score.

I think the Michigan St. scenario would have been a 2 point game on a make 1 point game w/ the intentional miss. With a sufficiently low clock the intentional miss makes sense because there's no difference between a 1 point game and a 2 point game when your opponents only option is a 3 point shot.

Duke's choice was between a 2 and a 3 point margin, however. So in that situation I think you've got to shoot to make the free throw.

[Hammersmith]

I heard an interview this morning from one of the other Duke players. It sounded like there was a debate by the coaches whether or not to have him intentionally miss. The interviewie made it sound like Coach K had decided to have him try to make it, but the shooter misunderstood and missed it on purpose. He didn't state this stuff flat out, but he talked about miscommunication and it sounded like he was surprised when the shooter missed the way he did.

[NorthernBison]

Just heard Coach K on ESPN Radio. He indicated that he wanted the shot missed. Knew Butler didn't have any time outs left and said it would take a miracle shot that almost happened. He actually said "Heck, it worked out." I think he knew it was a bad move and they got just a bit lucky.

He made a comment about how they had the shooter covered well with Kyle but he got killed at half court. Coach's comment was, "They're not going to call that at that point in the game." Exactly what an experienced official told me today too. It was a foul but it's not going to draw a whistle at the end of the game.

[TheDoctor]

Just heard Coach K on ESPN Radio. He indicated that he wanted the shot missed. Knew Butler didn't have any time outs left and said it would take a miracle shot that almost happened. He actually said "Heck, it worked out." I think he knew it was a bad move and they got just a bit lucky.

He made a comment about how they had the shooter covered well with Kyle but he got killed at half court. Coach's comment was, "They're not going to call that at that point in the game." Exactly what an experienced official told me today too. It was a foul but it's not going to draw a whistle at the end of the game.

How about a running flagrant foul, you don't call that? I disagree with the extent that foul was, especially because it sprung Hayward for his shot. ;)

[Bison bison]

Zoubek was a 55% shooter. It's not like he was going to make it if he tried.

[NorthernBison]

Zoubek was a 55% shooter. It's not like he was going to make it if he tried.

Yeah, I get that but you're still saying he had a better chance of making it than missing it.

I think Coach K had a brain fart if he really wanted an intentional miss. The only shot the opponent will end up taking is a 3 and if it goes in you are guaranteed to lose.

The intentional miss strategy is fine if you are up 1. Conventional wisdom is to try to turn a 2 point lead in to a 3 point lead though.

[stevdock]

I think that Coach Stevens (Butler) made himself a whole lot of bank over the last three weekends.


I don't think he needs the money. I believe he was a stock broker who made at least 6 figures, although I thought I heard 7 figures, before he decided to go coach basketball.

[ndsubison1]

Yeah, I get that but you're still saying he had a better chance of making it than missing it.

I think Coach K had a brain fart if he really wanted an intentional miss. The only shot the opponent will end up taking is a 3 and if it goes in you are guaranteed to lose.

The intentional miss strategy is fine if you are up 1. Conventional wisdom is to try to turn a 2 point lead in to a 3 point lead though.

Not necessarily. If there was less time on the clock say like 1.6 or something I would miss that shot every single time. Especially with no time out left. It would take more than a miracle shot to make it from about 3/4 court. That's something coaches are wiling to take rather then make, let them take it out of bounds, throw it deep catch it and get off a much better shot. I'd say the odds are much better in that situation then going into overtime.

[ndsubison1]

Sport Science video of Hayward's shot:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5063621

[NorthernBison]

I am not NOT a Duke fan but I am ecstatic that the shot missed. That screen is the definition of illegal and swallowing the whistle would have been the biggest travesty in sports history (well maybe not that big but still bad).

Congrats Duke. Everybody said you didn't deserve a #1 seed. Your demolition of West Virginia was a thing of beauty.

[onbison09]

I am not NOT a Duke fan but I am ecstatic that the shot missed. That screen is the definition of illegal and swallowing the whistle would have been the biggest travesty in sports history (well maybe not that big but still bad).

Congrats Duke. Everybody said you didn't deserve a #1 seed. Your demolition of West Virginia was a thing of beauty.

That is true. Good point.

[ndsubison1]

Couldnt tell if Howard's screen was illegal or not. He was set, but couldnt tell if he had his arm or elbow out or what but just because Singler went down hard there doesnt mean what Howard did was illegal

[TheDoctor]

I am not NOT a Duke fan but I am ecstatic that the shot missed. That screen is the definition of illegal and swallowing the whistle would have been the biggest travesty in sports history (well maybe not that big but still bad).

Congrats Duke. Everybody said you didn't deserve a #1 seed. Your demolition of West Virginia was a thing of beauty.

EXACTLY! I'd like to see the Sports Science analysis of the velocity and impact of the flagrant elbows on that pick and how many inches higher the elbows had to be or how much faster Singler had to be running to separate his spinal column and have him at best paralyzed for life. I really don't, but you get my point. That was instinct, reaction, and potentially lethal. Thank god he wasn't hurt and thank god the shot didn't go in! As far as whether Zooooouuuuubbbbbeck should have missed or made that free throw, Coach K ordered the miss, Butler missed, and he has 4 rings. I'll take his decision making on a basketball court over mine anyday. ;)

[TheDoctor]

Couldnt tell if Howard's screen was illegal or not. He was set, but couldnt tell if he had his arm or elbow out or what but just because Singler went down hard there doesnt mean what Howard did was illegal

Howard crossed his arms over about waist level and as Singler ran into him and turned toward the basket at the same time, Howard lifted his arms up right under Singler chin and absolutely KO'd him. I watched it over on the big screen several times. They say it's a great pick if you hold your ground and DON'T lift your arms. He DEFINITELY lifted his arms. ;)

[NDSUFan_Sav]

ok I love how almost everyone is giving Howard a tough time on that screen. What about Zoubek's rebound at the end that he had the guy clearly boxed out which was fine but then he pushed him out of the way with his arm and the guy fell over then the ball went off of Zoubek which then gave the ball back to Butler, but the point being that would of been Zoubek's 5th personal foul which could of have made it easier for Butler to score and made it completely different outcome of the game. Everyone has looked past that and is making fun of Howard get a grip he was planted and had his hands put where they're suppose to maybe his elbows were out somewhat but from what I've seen (i haven't seen it on slow motion dvr) but it looks like he was just planted and if he moved at all it would be considered a moving screen so therefore he could not move. In my opinion though, Zoubek should have been fouled out with 33 seconds left.

[NorthernBison]

Couldnt tell if Howard's screen was illegal or not. He was set, but couldnt tell if he had his arm or elbow out or what but just because Singler went down hard there doesnt mean what Howard did was illegal

My source is an experienced official. In addition, I heard Coach K mention the screen in passing. He did not make a big deal of it. He did indicate that he was fully aware that the officials would swallow the whistle on that screen in that situation. It would get called at virtually any other point in the game.

There is more to it than being set. Yes, he did bring his arms up. But, did you know that screens set out that far from the basket require more room to allow the player to avoid the screen. It might be a step or even a couple depending on the circumstances. That comes down to a judgement call by the official sometimes. In this case, it happened fast at high speed and was about as dangerous as it could possible be. That draws a whistle every time during the season.

For those nitpicking about other calls or non-calls, please. That was about the roughest basketball game I've watched in years. I know why Butler is such a solid defensive team. All the clutching and grabbing works.

That said, the officiating was pretty balanced. Both teams were physical to the extreme and the officials let them play. I think they missed some calls. I remember singler shoving a guy to get a clean look and then dropping a trey.

The one officiating change I do not understand is how an opposing player can DIVE on top of a guy who is on the floor with the ball. Making no attempt to go for the ball first. AND THEY CALL A HELD BALL?

[ndsubison1]

My source is an experienced official. In addition, I heard Coach K mention the screen in passing. He did not make a big deal of it. He did indicate that he was fully aware that the officials would swallow the whistle on that screen in that situation. It would get called at virtually any other point in the game.

There is more to it than being set. Yes, he did bring his arms up. But, did you know that screens set out that far from the basket require more room to allow the player to avoid the screen. It might be a step or even a couple depending on the circumstances. That comes down to a judgement call by the official sometimes. In this case, it happened fast at high speed and was about as dangerous as it could possible be. That draws a whistle every time during the season.

For those nitpicking about other calls or non-calls, please. That was about the roughest basketball game I've watched in years. I know why Butler is such a solid defensive team. All the clutching and grabbing works.

That said, the officiating was pretty balanced. Both teams were physical to the extreme and the officials let them play. I think they missed some calls. I remember singler shoving a guy to get a clean look and then dropping a trey.

The one officiating change I do not understand is how an opposing player can DIVE on top of a guy who is on the floor with the ball. Making no attempt to go for the ball first. AND THEY CALL A HELD BALL?

Yeah I agree, I beiieve it was Lance Thomas who did that. He jumped on top of one of the Butler guys, should have been a foul.