The Stiff Arm

[IzzyFlexion]

Even though this just happened in an NFL game, I'm putting this question in the "Football" forum because it applies to all levels of football and I've seen it occur several times while watching Bison games.
I'd like to see members weigh with your philosophies regarding offensive players using the stiff arm in order to fend off tacklers. Specifically, when this involves the non ball arm/hand pushing into the defender's facemask. It's always bothered me that defenders are flagged not only for dragging someone down by the facemask, but even innocuous and incidental contact with an offensive player's mask. Conversly, offensive players (including some good Bison backs) gain a tremendous amount of additional yards by jamming a defender directly into their mask without consequence.
Perhaps IndyBison can help me understand this double standard.

[westnodak93bison]

wondered that myself

[OrygunBison]

I have actually recently seen an offensive player get penalized for it. Can't remember who it was but it was extremely flagrant, like actually grabbing the facemask and twisting.

I would have to imagine that the issue is the relative risk of injury. If offensive players risk injuring the defender, I would think that the officials would be more apt to call it. I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not someone gained an advantage.

I have no idea what the rules say, though.

[EndZoneQB]

You cannot grab a facemask on offense...merely put your hand on the helmet. They will flag you for it quite often if you are not careful.

[IzzyFlexion]

You cannot grab a facemask on offense...merely put your hand on the helmet. They will flag you for it quite often if you are not careful.

Putting the hand on the helmet is one thing. These images are examples of the types of stiffarms that I'm referring to. I'm sure that they are flagged for this periodically, but I've never seen it called and I watch a lot of football. But.....apparently not enough.
http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/10/08/sp_calbears_0456_kr.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kHvIx-PnxpY/RaftpDtFjPI/AAAAAAAAAHo/v2dTMizszDE/s400/Jarrett+Stiff+Arm.jpg
http://www.footballforum.com/photopost/data/2/LT_vs_STL_3.jpg
http://njmg.typepad.com/varsityaces/images/2007/09/21/stiffarm.jpg

[Tatanka]

Giggity .

[56BISON73]

Putting the hand on the helmet is one thing. These images are examples of the types of stiffarms that I'm referring to. I'm sure that they are flagged for this periodically, but I've never seen it called and I watch a lot of football. But.....apparently not enough.
http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/10/08/sp_calbears_0456_kr.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kHvIx-PnxpY/RaftpDtFjPI/AAAAAAAAAHo/v2dTMizszDE/s400/Jarrett+Stiff+Arm.jpg
http://www.footballforum.com/photopost/data/2/LT_vs_STL_3.jpg
http://njmg.typepad.com/varsityaces/images/2007/09/21/stiffarm.jpg
As long as they arent grabbing the face mask it should be legal. But I will deferr this to our officials on the board.

[CaBisonFan]

Even though this just happened in an NFL game, I'm putting this question in the "Football" forum because it applies to all levels of football and I've seen it occur several times while watching Bison games.
I'd like to see members weigh with your philosophies regarding offensive players using the stiff arm in order to fend off tacklers. Specifically, when this involves the non ball arm/hand pushing into the defender's facemask. It's always bothered me that defenders are flagged not only for dragging someone down by the facemask, but even innocuous and incidental contact with an offensive player's mask. Conversly, offensive players (including some good Bison backs) gain a tremendous amount of additional yards by jamming a defender directly into their mask without consequence.
Perhaps IndyBison can help me understand this double standard.

Overall, I get really tired of all of the calls that aren't blatant...like facemasks that are obviously accidental. Also, the rule that says the ball is down on contact with the ground. To me, if the ball hits the ground and you can't hang on, it should be a fumble. The game is so riddled with technicalities that the officials own the game. I know it's mostly to do with injuries...but....it's boring. The stiffs-arm has been a fundamental part of the game. I don't know how you miss getting a piece of the facemask on either side of the ball.

On the other hand, I'm not in favor of players being slammed into a sideline wall and then being mugged...without an automatic suspension. Hell...I'd hit the guy....:cool:

[IzzyFlexion]

As long as they arent grabbing the face mask it should be legal. But I will deferr this to our officials on the board.

Yes, I get that and am completely OK with it. I guess what I was going for was more in the direction of discussing the legality of an offensive player to do what is pictured versus a defensive player getting a 15 yard penalty for MUCH less. It's clearly a tremendous advantage for the offensive player to fend off a tackler and as you can see in the photo of the guy whose helmet has been completely shoved off of his head that was done WITHOUT grabbing it. It really is potentially dangerous and should be flagged more often as a 15 yarder against the ball carrier, in my opinion.

[NorthernBison]

You've watched enough football to kow the game has become about offense. Many of the rules are structured accordingly.

As for the stiff arm thing, the pictures look bad but I don't recall ever seeing a defensive player get injured by a stiff arm. Maybe that's part of why the rule is the way it is.

[56BISON73]

Yes, I get that and am completely OK with it. I guess what I was going for was more in the direction of discussing the legality of an offensive player to do what is pictured versus a defensive player getting a 15 yard penalty for MUCH less. It's clearly a tremendous advantage for the offensive player to fend off a tackler and as you can see in the photo of the guy whose helmet has been completely shoved off of his head that was done WITHOUT grabbing it. It really is potentially dangerous and should be flagged more often as a 15 yarder against the ball carrier, in my opinion.


If you tackle correctly you shouldnt have the problem of being stiff armed. But it you come in high you run that possibility. As far a dangerous???? We will just have to disagree on that point. :D

[Bison_Backer]

I'm am not reading all these posts but as long as the offender does not clasp the defenders face mask its legal.


Bring back the veer.

[IzzyFlexion]

If you tackle correctly you shouldnt have the problem of being stiff armed. But it you come in high you run that possibility. As far a dangerous???? We will just have to disagree on that point. :D

Well, in this shot, it would appear that the whistle to stop play has yet to be blown and this defender is in the thick of contact without a helmet so......yeah, I think it's a bit dangerous. In the other 3 photos, while the player's helmets are still technically on their heads, they are badly of the fitted position leaving them much more susceptible to serious head injury.
http://www.footballforum.com/photopost/data/2/LT_vs_STL_3.jpg

[56BISON73]

Players lose there helmets for many various reasons just not the stiff arm. Its happens all the time.

There was game just this past week where a player lost his helmet, pursued the play and got in on the tackle. Its not something they are really concerned about.

[aces1180]

Players lose there helmets for many various reasons just not the stiff arm. Its happens all the time.

There was game just this past week where a player lost his helmet, pursued the play and got in on the tackle. Its not something they are really concerned about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcRLgkLQh_Y

Check this out.

[unbison]

you would put up a cowboys clip

[56BISON73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcRLgkLQh_Y

Check this out.

Wow. Pretty good hit.

[tjbison]

All I can say without the Stiff arm my RB's on NCAA 10 would suck

[IzzyFlexion]

Players lose there helmets for many various reasons just not the stiff arm. Its happens all the time.

There was game just this past week where a player lost his helmet, pursued the play and got in on the tackle. Its not something they are really concerned about.

Incidently or by the direct action of an opponent.
Offensive lineman get flagged quite often for "illegal hands to the face" of the defender. This action often displaces someone's helmet at the LOS. My point is, why are ballcarriers exempt.

[56BISON73]

Incidently or by the direct action of an opponent.
Offensive lineman get flagged quite often for "illegal hands to the face" of the defender. This action often displaces someone's helmet at the LOS. My point is, why are ballcarriers exempt.

Lineman get flagged because there hands are extended too far from there body. There was a time when you couldnt use your hands at all. They relaxed those rules but there are still some parameters that they must abide by. Also when you see that called the o-lineman usually has hands under the bottom of the face mask pushing up, arms extended. There might also be some rule regarding the face masking that Iam not aware of.

It seems that your biggest concern is the supposed injury factor of a displaced helment. Or are you just try to find out what the difference is?

[IzzyFlexion]

Lineman get flagged because there hands are extended too far from there body. There was a time when you couldnt use your hands at all. They relaxed those rules but there are still some parameters that they must abide by. Also when you see that called the o-lineman usually has hands under the bottom of the face mask pushing up, arms extended.

It seems that your biggest concern is the supposed injury factor of a displaced helment. Or are you just try to find out what the difference is?

This video shows a University of Texas offensive lineman (# 74) pass blocking illegally by jamming the defensive lineman's facemask. He was flagged in this instance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1YCKfHncsg
That's the "illegal hands to the face" call that I see fairly often. Again, I have always wondered why this type of contact is allowed by a ball carrier and no one else on the field.
And, yes, having dealt with and managed head injuries in football for many years, I am always mindful/watchful of circustances that might increase the risk of injury.

[56BISON73]

This video shows a University of Texas offensive lineman (# 74) pass blocking illegally by jamming the defensive lineman's facemask. He was flagged in this instance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1YCKfHncsg
That's the "illegal hands to the face" call that I see fairly often. Again, I have always wondered why this type of contact is allowed by a ball carrier and no one else on the field.
And, yes, having dealt with and managed head injuries in football for many years, I am always mindful/watchful of circustances that might increase the risk of injury.

In what capacity?

[TheDoctor]

Conversly, offensive players (including some good Bison backs) gain a tremendous amount of additional yards by jamming a defender directly into their mask without consequence.

Every great run photo I have ever seen of Roehl has him doing it. I am not saying it's wrong, it is just a fact. ;)