What is wrong with this defense?

[Facts]

The Wagner game left me Frustrated with a capital F. How did our strength (D) go down the toilet in one season? Is the new D-Coor that bad? I mean, it's not like he's new to football. What is your X's and O's analysis?

[stevdock]

The next time we stop a spread offense will be our first time.

[bisonmike2]

The guys are consistently out of position. And when to they get to the spot on time they're missing the tackles. One play really stuck out for me tonight. I think it was Belmont who was sent on a blitz. He came flying in, head down and crashed into the blocker and the runner went right around him. It didn't even look like he cared who had the ball and where the runner was at. There have been a ton of plays like that this year.

[LITTLEGUYSINGREEN]

The Wagner game left me Frustrated with a capital F. How did our strength (D) go down the toilet in one season? Is the new D-Coor that bad? I mean, it's not like he's new to football. What is your X's and O's analysis?

Bad players. That's all.

[HandoEX]

Bad players. That's all.
6 and 32. How did we drop off at corner this much?

[NDSUFan_Sav]

6 and 32. How did we drop off at corner this much?

yeah i don't know i know there are some injuries that are hurting us but honestly really giving up almost if not 400 yards to Wagner....WTF that 1st quarter wagner felt like they deserved to be here.

[BisoninNWMN]

6 and 32. How did we drop off at corner this much?


You are spot ON!!

32 (Colvin) is not very good. Every MV team is going to go to him.......his coverage is poor and tackling is even worse.

Wagner is FCS but only has 30 schollies and they moved the ball on us pretty easily for 1 1/2 quarters......the defense needs to get their sh** together or the MV is going to kick our a**es.....:( :(

[westnodak93bison]

28 pts to Wagner? Thas is ridiculous. Our 4th string defensive players shouldnt give up 28pts to Wagner!

[stevdock]

Points aren't a huge deal as the 1st team only really gave up 7, but the 1st quarter yards were way too much.

[HandoEX]

28 pts to Wagner? Thas is ridiculous. Our 4th string defensive players shouldnt give up 28pts to Wagner!

Technically, our defense only gave up 21 since one score was on a punt screw up:D

[td577]

Poor tackling and players out of position are not helping. The tacking is an individual commitment by each player. If they are not going to commit to making good sound tackles, games like yesterday will continue to happen. The positioning is up to the coaches and training the players to learn their individual responsibilities and then for the players to trust their teammates and make the play. The defense is creating holes with trying to turn every running play into a 6 yard loss.

[CaBisonFan]

Technically, our defense only gave up 21 since one score was on a punt screw up:D

First team defense, as Stevdock wrote, gave up one legit. touchdown. I'm not statisfied with the D either...but at least call it accurately. Having a bad morning, are we?

[CaBisonFan]

Wonder if having a new coordinator could take some getting used to. Just a thought.

[CaBisonFan]

The defense is creating holes with trying to turn every running play into a 6 yard loss.

This may be the real problem. Good analysis.

[MHDBisonfan]

I know our defense last week was just awful, but before we completely throw them under the bus again this week, lets not completely just dismiss Wagner's offensive abilities, just because we've never heard of this school before this season. Granted, they only have 30 schollies, but their first team O is probably all scholly. Their RB, 25, made some nice plays and was pretty slippery and tough to bring down. I mean, if Iowa was showing interest in him, don't you think he has some talent? Just because a guy like that takes it to us a little bit early on, doesn't NECCESSARILY mean our defense was bad again. I thought we made some good adjustments as the game went on, and our 1st team D basically pitched a shutout from midway thru the 2nd quarter on....I don't know, I'm trying to be optimistic.

[HandoEX]

First team defense, as Stevdock wrote, gave up one legit. touchdown. I'm not statisfied with the D either...but at least call it accurately. Having a bad morning, are we?

Where did I say I wasn't satisfied:confused: A few players looked really bad, and a few players looked really good. Overall, the defense looked pretty solid in the second half. Wagner strung together a few good drives, but every team should be able to string something together.

In the post you quoted, I was just pointing out that our defense gave up 21 points as westnodak93bison said the defense gave up 28:)

[CaBisonFan]

[quote=MHDBisonfan;305564]I know our defense last week was just awful, but before we completely throw them under the bus again this week, lets not completely just dismiss Wagner's offensive abilities, just because we've never heard of this school before this season.quote]

Excellent observations. reps

[BisonNeil]

Points aren't a huge deal as the 1st team only really gave up 7, but the 1st quarter yards were way too much.

Not totally correct, Wagner had 14 points at half time and they didn't put in backups in the D until the end of the third quarter.

And for those who think the Bison gave up 400 yards, it was 277, it only seemed like 400.

[BisonNeil]

Wonder if having a new coordinator could take some getting used to. Just a thought.

I think getting used to two new coaches is part of it, Bohl said so this week.

But this is also a very inexperienced D. Two new DEs, new LB's all around at this point, although two have played some, and the DBs are a mixed bag. Belmont and Lemon have experience, Bowman also but he is shaking off rust after his neck injury. Colvin is simply not very good in addition to being inexperienced.

I have said this before and I will say it again, I do think there is a talent issue as well. You put a lot of inexperience on the field, they are going to make mistakes and that lead to big plays as we have seen. But the talent just isn't there.

I really think the two poor 05 and 06 classes are really hurting this team, especially on D. Tyler Henry never got a real chance to develop, he was hobbled by injuries throughout his career which is unforunate. But Anderson is not playing well despite what people on this board think. He was simply awful last night. He played half speed, took poor angles to the ball over and over again, and his stats show it. Backups who played in the last series had more tackles than he did. This D is not as talented as some of you believed it would be. I don't think Bowman and Colvin are that good either, and they were in these same recruiting classes.

Bottom line: I never thought the D would be very good, largely because of my belief that Bohl's second and third recruiting classes lacked the talent to field a top notch FCS defense.

[tony]

Well, BisonNeil, I think I'm the only guy who has given Anderson props - but that was mostly for his special teams play. Last night, I don't remember seeing him at all (and when I say I couldn't see him - I mean, I couldn't even see him in the frame). If the coaches can't correct that, they'll have to put somebody else in there. I'll rewatch the game and keep an eye out for him. In contrast, Jemison did seem to be around the ball a lot so that's a little encouraging.

I hesitate to write off young DBs - I remember a couple Bison All-Conference types who were toasted quite a bit early in their career.

[yellowstreak]

this running play bugs me....no swarming to the ball

4:10 minutes into the show

http://www.valleynewslive-ondemand.com/video/bison/2009/show3.shtml

[BisoninNWMN]

Well, BisonNeil, I think I'm the only guy who has given Anderson props - but that was mostly for his special teams play. Last night, I don't remember seeing him at all (and when I say I couldn't see him - I mean, I couldn't even see him in the frame). If the coaches can't correct that, they'll have to put somebody else in there. I'll rewatch the game and keep an eye out for him. In contrast, Jemison did seem to be around the ball a lot so that's a little encouraging.

I hesitate to write off young DBs - I remember a couple Bison All-Conference types who were toasted quite a bit early in their career.


...but our 2 starting corners are a junior and senior....32 and 6.....:confused:

[tony]

...but our 2 starting corners are a junior and senior....32 and 6.....:confused:

Yeah, almost all our DBs are upper classmen - I think of Colvin as a young guy though. We need continuity in the coaching staff, better recruiting, and better retention.

[stevdock]

Not totally correct, Wagner had 14 points at half time and they didn't put in backups in the D until the end of the third quarter.

And for those who think the Bison gave up 400 yards, it was 277, it only seemed like 400.

I realize that we gave up 14 in the first half, but one was set up by a shorter field because of the INT wasn't it??

[Facts]

I realize that we gave up 14 in the first half, but one was set up by a shorter field because of the INT wasn't it??

Actually, I think that interception was called back because of a penalty during the return. I think Wagner started with it on their own 30-40ish?? I guess it depends on your definition of "shorter field".

[A1pigskin]

My observation was that our Corners were getting burned.

[NDSUstudent]

Gatlin and Eaves should be back soon, no doubt they should help the secondary.

As for the defense I think inexperience is a huge factor and the D-line stilll needs to show me more. That said, I was excited about what I saw from Evans and Jemison, they will be a great duo for NDSU.

[99Bison]

I think getting used to two new coaches is part of it, Bohl said so this week.

But this is also a very inexperienced D. Two new DEs, new LB's all around at this point, although two have played some, and the DBs are a mixed bag. Belmont and Lemon have experience, Bowman also but he is shaking off rust after his neck injury. Colvin is simply not very good in addition to being inexperienced.

I have said this before and I will say it again, I do think there is a talent issue as well. You put a lot of inexperience on the field, they are going to make mistakes and that lead to big plays as we have seen. But the talent just isn't there.

I really think the two poor 05 and 06 classes are really hurting this team, especially on D. Tyler Henry never got a real chance to develop, he was hobbled by injuries throughout his career which is unforunate. But Anderson is not playing well despite what people on this board think. He was simply awful last night. He played half speed, took poor angles to the ball over and over again, and his stats show it. Backups who played in the last series had more tackles than he did. This D is not as talented as some of you believed it would be. I don't think Bowman and Colvin are that good either, and they were in these same recruiting classes.

Bottom line: I never thought the D would be very good, largely because of my belief that Bohl's second and third recruiting classes lacked the talent to field a top notch FCS defense.

Unfortunately Anderson hasn't been good ever, sorry to rip on him specifically... But, I remember this every time he came in for a hurt player (Humber, Maresh) in the past, it was like a broken record, and at the time the only hope was that he'd learn and get better. If you want to see, watch the bunny game from 2 years ago, watch them directly exploit his gaps and side of the field continuously. Then watch the games this year... Same things over and over again.:(

[MinotBison]

Unless the defense gets ALOT better, I hope I didn't just watch the last game they will win this year.

[mgbison]

Jemison missed some tackles, but he seemed to be around the ball a lot. I really like his speed. My only beef with him is his number. He should have a number like 10's, 20's or 30's (i'm sure they just gave him that number this year, but next year maybe #2, 37, 26)

[MPLSbisonFAN]

I think the coaches really need to step up their schemes. The bison never had these problems in previous years. It looks to me that the defensive schemes and playcalling has changed alot with the arrival of the new dc.

[Kermit]

I think the coaches really need to step up their schemes. The bison never had these problems in previous years. It looks to me that the defensive schemes and playcalling has changed alot with the arrival of the new dc.

The biggest change is that over the past two years the Bison have lost NFL-caliber defenders like Joe Mays, Ramon Humber, Craig Dahl, and Nick Schommer and replaced them with players who aren't nearly as good. For example, Brandon Jemison is a promising young player but there is no way he would have been on the field in other seasons. The 2nd team linebackers last night included a kid who is just coming back after being out a year and a half with knee problems, a redshirt freshman playing his first game at LB, and a walk-on sophomore who (as far as I know) had never played in a Bison game before. Derrius Colvin had a horrendous first quarter last night. He needed to be replaced, but there just wasn't another viable option to put in the game.

There are multiple reasons for the talent gap on defense--but new coaches including Breske didn't create this mess.

[Facts]

I thought I heard there were some injured players coming back on D this next week. Will they make a positive contribution?

[bisontwice]

The biggest change is that over the past two years the Bison have lost NFL-caliber defenders like Joe Mays, Ramon Humber, Craig Dahl, and Nick Schommer and replaced them with players who aren't nearly as good. For example, Brandon Jemison is a promising young player but there is no way he would have been on the field in other seasons. The 2nd team linebackers last night included a kid who is just coming back after being out a year and a half with knee problems, a redshirt freshman playing his first game at LB, and a walk-on sophomore who (as far as I know) had never played in a Bison game before. Derrius Colvin had a horrendous first quarter last night. He needed to be replaced, but there just wasn't another viable option to put in the game.

There are multiple reasons for the talent gap on defense--but new coaches including Breske didn't create this mess.
The good news is the future for the defense does look good. There are a lot of good young players. I don't think it is just schemes at this time.

[Kermit]

I need to rant about something.

Most observers seem to agree that the Bison are sorely lacking depth at linebacker. It seems to me that there have been a few kids buried on the depth chart at other positions who could potentially play LB. The Bison brought in 4 highly regarded freshman defensive ends on scholarship, plus a walk-on--and one LB on scholarship! Are you kidding me? I bet Cole Jirik could be a stud linebacker. I've mentioned Andrew Grothmann before. The kid is a heck of a football player, but it looks like he is the second best fullback in the freshman class (behind Bruhn) and no better than 4th on the depth chart. Or Kevin Vaadeland (yes, I know he's out for the year now with an ACL). He played LB in high school and I think he has the physical tools to excel there. Again, he may be second best in his recruiting class at his original position of TE (behind Taylor Nelson) and I was stunned that he was going to be (another) TE. Maybe someone will be moved to LB in the spring. But wouldn't the future of the Bison defense look a littler brighter if Jirik/Vaadeland/Grothmann or ANYONE among the redshirts was learning the ropes at linebacker??? Maybe a walk-on like Hushka will make it, he is from a family of over-achievers. But I have always understood that you need to put your best athletes on defense, and with the struggles of the Bison defense and their apparent lack of depth it is tough to understand why good athletes are left buried on the depth chart on offense. Landon Smith and Austin Vetter are the 3rd and 4th TE's. Neither will ever start at that position. Could one of them help the D? How about Matt Voigtlander? I know he is an excellent RB, but we seem to have an embarrassment of riches at that spot. Could he help the D? Isn't he too good to be wasted? Am I totally off the deep end?

[bisonmike2]

3 games in and we rank last or close to last in every major defensive statistical category in our conference. Meanwhile, our rivals SDSU, rank at the top or near it in those same categories. If your not pissed at that, you should be.

[bisontwice]

Defense wins championships and offense sells tickets. Which one would we rather have?? Bison championships of the past have all had excellent defenses and that needs to be a priority in my opinion.

[Bison Dan]

3 games in and we rank last or close to last in every major defensive statistical category in our conference. Meanwhile, our rivals SDSU, rank at the top or near it in those same categories. If your not pissed at that, you should be.

Which FBC team did SDSU play? The only time those stat mean anything is at the end of the year and with only conf. games.

[bisonmike2]

Which FBC team did SDSU play? The only time those stat mean anything is at the end of the year and with only conf. games.

SIU, Northern Iowa and Illinois State among others all played more impressive FBS teams than us and managed to not have as bad of numbers.

[NDSUstudent]

The question is can the defense turn the corner at some point? We will saw what happened last year against YSU and the defense improved steadily every game after that. Hopefully the coaches can figure it out.

[Bisonfan1]

The question is can the defense turn the corner at some point? We will saw what happened last year against YSU and the defense improved steadily every game after that. Hopefully the coaches can figure it out.

Like RIGHT NOW, time is up !!!

[Facts]

I need to rant about something.

Most observers seem to agree that the Bison are sorely lacking depth at linebacker. It seems to me that there have been a few kids buried on the depth chart at other positions who could potentially play LB. The Bison brought in 4 highly regarded freshman defensive ends on scholarship, plus a walk-on--and one LB on scholarship! Are you kidding me? I bet Cole Jirik could be a stud linebacker. I've mentioned Andrew Grothmann before. The kid is a heck of a football player, but it looks like he is the second best fullback in the freshman class (behind Bruhn) and no better than 4th on the depth chart. Or Kevin Vaadeland (yes, I know he's out for the year now with an ACL). He played LB in high school and I think he has the physical tools to excel there. Again, he may be second best in his recruiting class at his original position of TE (behind Taylor Nelson) and I was stunned that he was going to be (another) TE. Maybe someone will be moved to LB in the spring. But wouldn't the future of the Bison defense look a littler brighter if Jirik/Vaadeland/Grothmann or ANYONE among the redshirts was learning the ropes at linebacker??? Maybe a walk-on like Hushka will make it, he is from a family of over-achievers. But I have always understood that you need to put your best athletes on defense, and with the struggles of the Bison defense and their apparent lack of depth it is tough to understand why good athletes are left buried on the depth chart on offense. Landon Smith and Austin Vetter are the 3rd and 4th TE's. Neither will ever start at that position. Could one of them help the D? How about Matt Voigtlander? I know he is an excellent RB, but we seem to have an embarrassment of riches at that spot. Could he help the D? Isn't he too good to be wasted? Am I totally off the deep end?

Kermit, this post intrigues me. I have to say I'm in the camp with you where the best athletes should be on the field whenever possible. Now, I don't know what's involved in the learning curve to play LB, but I would assume it is fairly substantial. The thing is, shouldn't the coaches be thinking this way too during the offseason, before we are at the is point. As a youth hockey coach I did a lot of worst case scenario planning (like if my stud defenseman is hurt or sick, insert this guy, ect. ect.). I don't think you're off the deep end at all, but I never played linebacker.

[TateMosersneighbor]

The biggest change is that over the past two years the Bison have lost NFL-caliber defenders like Joe Mays, Ramon Humber, Craig Dahl, and Nick Schommer and replaced them with players who aren't nearly as good. For example, Brandon Jemison is a promising young player but there is no way he would have been on the field in other seasons. The 2nd team linebackers last night included a kid who is just coming back after being out a year and a half with knee problems, a redshirt freshman playing his first game at LB, and a walk-on sophomore who (as far as I know) had never played in a Bison game before. Derrius Colvin had a horrendous first quarter last night. He needed to be replaced, but there just wasn't another viable option to put in the game.

There are multiple reasons for the talent gap on defense--but new coaches including Breske didn't create this mess.

This is a good point. Perhaps we were complacent in recruiting in the "glory" days of 2006/2007?

[bisontwice]

This is a good point. Perhaps we were complacent in recruiting in the "glory" days of 2006/2007?

I don't think we were complacement, sometimes kids just don't perform at the next level as expected. Also, in the "glory days" some young players may have looked and had the thought that they wouldn't be playing for a few years behind the likes of Mays, Humber, etc and chosen to go elsewhere and play earlier. Recruiting is an educated guess and sometimes it turns out to be wrong.

[IzzyFlexion]

Voigt stays at fullback. 2 time HS all-state Lee Vandal returns at linebacker.:hide:
Hey, I can dream as well as anyone.

[A1pigskin]

Are they giving up at the end of the game?????