President's house running over budget

[GradBison]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/250349/

It's just the sort of story that The Forum loves, and the type that brings out the crazies in the comments section. Just look at the comments in the stories Hammersmith posted about NDSU's downtown development.

When I read some of that stuff, it sometimes makes me hate living in this town! I have to remind myself that there are sane people out there who have better things to do than being haters on a newspaper's comments section.

[lcbison]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/250349/

It's just the sort of story that The Forum loves, and the type that brings out the crazies in the comments section. Just look at the comments in the stories Hammersmith posted about NDSU's downtown development.

When I read some of that stuff, it sometimes makes me hate living in this town! I have to remind myself that there are sane people out there who have better things to do than being haters on a newspaper's comments section.

It's the same people every day, who comment. Helps speed up a slow day at the office.

[GradBison]

Oh God look at this gem. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:



R J.
they sure are working hard on getting the mansion done for the president but doing nothing or very little on 12th avenue so the students have to have a hardship getting to school.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Oh God look at this gem. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Wow didn't know NDSU was now in charge of the major roads in Fargo. Some people should not be allowed to even try to think because it is just going to disappoint them with the failure time after time.

[NDSUstudent]

It must have been a slow day at the Forum that they needed to write an article about a building that is over on budget but not a dime of it is being paid for by the state.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Check out the Bison Media Blog. Kolpack says it as it should be said.

[GradBison]

Thank God for Jeff Kolpack! Where would Bison media coverage be without him and Hallstrom???

http://www.areavoices.com/bisonmedia/?blog=57967

Edit: you beat me to it FAN.

[tony]

If any other college in the state had a project go over budget because of the flood, the legislature would kick in the extra money, donchyathink?

But since it's NDSU, there's an uproar.

[mebisonII]

I love this picture. Don't know why. But I do.


http://www.areavoices.com/bisonmedia/images/bisonhouse.jpg

[tjbison]

If any other college in the state had a project go over budget because of the flood, the legislature would kick in the extra money, donchyathink?

But since it's NDSU, there's an uproar.


especially since we have oh say $1.2-1.5 BILLION dollars in the bank, that doesn't seem to get used for anything:banghead: :banghead:

also go figure the comment from the state Legislator look were he is from!!!

[McBison]

It must have been a slow day at the Forum that they needed to write an article about a building that is over on budget but not a dime of it is being paid for by the state.

Isn't it being paid for by the Forum?:confused:

[The Lost Dutchman]

Isn't it being paid for by the Forum?:confused:

Correct, it was a nice million dollar donation by Mr. Marcil?

[roadwarrior]

I think it was a personal donation by the Marcils. Not a donation by Forum Communications.

[Ferd]

I think it was a personal donation by the Marcils. Not a donation by Forum Communications.

And I believe half was for NDSU and half for UND president's houses.

[Hammersmith]

From Marcil, not the Forum(though Marcil owns the Forum).

$2 million donation total.

$1 million to NDSU, $1 million to UND.

In each case, $900,000 to be used for construction and $100,000 to be used for furnishings.

Technically, the donations were to the respective university foundations, so they are the ones actually paying for the homes and responsible for any overages.

I think that covers it.

[Ferd]

From Marcil, not the Forum(though Marcil owns the Forum).

$2 million donation total.

$1 million to NDSU, $1 million to UND.

In each case, $900,000 to be used for construction and $100,000 to be used for furnishings.

Technically, the donations were to the respective university foundations, so they are the ones actually paying for the homes and responsible for any overages.

I think that covers it.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

[NorthernBison]

final costs presented to State today. It came in at ...... $1.8 Million.

[tony]

Bismarck Tribune had their yearly big editorial calling for Chapman's head today - and they wrote that before the $1.8 million figure was announced.

There has to be better communication between NDSU and the legislature than that (if there is a way to communicate without violating open meeting laws.)

Edit: Oh, I see, to get to $1.8 million you have to include furniture, parking, and anything tangentially related to the new house. Not sure that is a good figure then. If so, then UND is about $200k over budget. The difference is that it sounds like UND used tax money to cover all but $20k of their overruns.

[NorthernBison]

It shouldn't surprise me but I am a bit shocked that people in positions of authority can exercise such incredibly poor judgement. I don't even know who to blame but somebody was asleep at the switch to start with and then compounded it by lowballing the overrun. Wow!

This was a high profile project with some controversy. There had to be a recognition quite some time ago that the project was going to be over budget. That was the time to lay things on the table and make darn sure that you had a handle on the costs. Good idea to also have a solution.

When the project was nearing completion it was reported that it would be about $400,000 over the plan. That's quite a bit and it raised questions. Ok Fine. I guess that happens. Now the final total is another 400,000 higher?

Regardless of private financing, it sure makes it look like a three ring circus at NDSU.

[tony]

You are spot on, NorthernBison. This is a public relations debacle. Why give the people who want Chapman run out of the state ammunition?

Folks were complaining about replacing the house since people first started begging to get the job done back before Chapman was even around so you knew it was going to be bad publicity from the beginning - this lack of communication just made it monumentally worse.

Not sure where the breakdown occurred though - who managed the project and what was Chapman's role in it?

Heh, on the other hand, the REA cost about 100 times as much as this house... and it exceeded its stated budget by at least $60 million (probably much more than that).

[bisonmike2]

Bismarck Tribune had their yearly big editorial calling for Chapman's head today - and they wrote that before the $1.8 million figure was announced.

There has to be better communication between NDSU and the legislature than that (if there is a way to communicate without violating open meeting laws.)

Edit: Oh, I see, to get to $1.8 million you have to include furniture, parking, and anything tangentially related to the new house. Not sure that is a good figure then. If so, then UND is about $200k over budget. The difference is that it sounds like UND used tax money to cover all but $20k of their overruns.

It would have been 1.2 million but Chapman insisted they use $100 bills to stuff his pillows and couch cushions with. I heard a rumor that the fireplace will be fueled in the winter with stacks of 20's, again another Chapman request. /sacrasm

[met1990]

The legislature subcommittee announced today that a significant part of the cost overrun was due to "bitch-proofing" the roof in case Lakes came over and it started raining.

[Amused]

It would have been 1.2 million but Chapman insisted they use $100 bills to stuff his pillows and couch cushions with. I heard a rumor that the fireplace will be fueled in the winter with stacks of 20's, again another Chapman request. /sacrasm

Solution to overrun: Rent out the house for one month to BCBS for sales incentive meetings. It's win/win.

[NorthernBison]

You are spot on, NorthernBison. This is a public relations debacle. Why give the people who want Chapman run out of the state ammunition?

Folks were complaining about replacing the house since people first started begging to get the job done back before Chapman was even around so you knew it was going to be bad publicity from the beginning - this lack of communication just made it monumentally worse.

Not sure where the breakdown occurred though - who managed the project and what was Chapman's role in it?

Heh, on the other hand, the REA cost about 100 times as much as this house... and it exceeded its stated budget by at least $60 million (probably much more than that).

I don't really care what they spent on the project. Clearly, there was considerable support for a needed improvement. I think they probably decided that they should lay ALL the cards on the table and make sure that nobody could accuse them of sweeping some costs under the table. That might be the reason for the second jump in cost. The only other explanation is gross incompetence.

The gigantic problem with all this goes deeper than the PR debacle. There needs to be a real effort to make sure that fences are mended with our elected officials. I don't think this is the first time that the Development Foundation has been involved with a spending controversy and somebody had to go to Bismarck for a "sit down". Remember the building downtown? That removed any question about keeping people in Bismarck aware of what was happening and the necessity of asking for permission rather than forgiveness.

My biggest concern is the impact this will have the next time NDSU goes to Bismarck asking for whatever.

The impact of this could have been altered by managing things differently.

[bisonmike2]

Solution to overrun: Rent out the house for one month to BCBS for sales incentive meetings. It's win/win.

That's a good one. I'd also propose that if a health care plan gets passed we could rent out the house to the Death Panels. I mean, they're gonna need a place to meet right?

[lakesbison]

Re: President's house running over budget

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The legislature subcommittee announced today that a significant part of the cost overrun was due to "bitch-proofing" the roof in case Lakes came over and it started raining

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ill pay the rent. whats the price???

[bisonaudit]

I don't really care what they spent on the project. Clearly, there was considerable support for a needed improvement. I think they probably decided that they should lay ALL the cards on the table and make sure that nobody could accuse them of sweeping some costs under the table. That might be the reason for the second jump in cost. The only other explanation is gross incompetence.

The gigantic problem with all this goes deeper than the PR debacle. There needs to be a real effort to make sure that fences are mended with our elected officials. I don't think this is the first time that the Development Foundation has been involved with a spending controversy and somebody had to go to Bismarck for a "sit down". Remember the building downtown? That removed any question about keeping people in Bismarck aware of what was happening and the necessity of asking for permission rather than forgiveness.

My biggest concern is the impact this will have the next time NDSU goes to Bismarck asking for whatever.

The impact of this could have been altered by managing things differently.

If you're sitting in Fargo why would you ever ask those smucks in Bismarck for permission to spend your own money, rather than forgiveness? If you do that the result is both a PR hit and no progress. At least if you're doing it this way you get something for the pounding you have to endure from the do nothings.

[NorthernBison]

If you're sitting in Fargo why would you ever ask those smucks in Bismarck for permission to spend your own money, rather than forgiveness? If you do that the result is both a PR hit and no progress. At least if you're doing it this way you get something for the pounding you have to endure from the do nothings.

Maybe because you don't own the Campus. The new construction had to be approved by the State because the taxpayers will be responsible for maintaining it in the future. They knew better than to start the project without getting approval which was quickly granted. Somehow, nobody thought it was important to inform the Board that the project was going to end up costing nearly double what was approved.

Maybe I'm overreacting but I'm concerned that this could cause problems the next time NDSU asks for something. If somebody wants to stick a knife in your back, why would you hand them a long pointy sharp one?

I don't know if anybody truly broke the rules or merely bent them. If they broke them, then they might be turning in their keys. Bottom line is that somebody is responsible for authorizing the spending of nearly $800,000 of somebody elses money. They either signed off on something where they didn't have authority or they failed in their oversight.

[bisonaudit]

Maybe because you don't own the Campus. The new construction had to be approved by the State because the taxpayers will be responsible for maintaining it in the future. They knew better than to start the project without getting approval which was quickly granted. Somehow, nobody thought it was important to inform the Board that the project was going to end up costing nearly double what was approved.

Maybe I'm overreacting but I'm concerned that this could cause problems the next time NDSU asks for something. If somebody wants to stick a knife in your back, why would you hand them a long pointy sharp one?

I don't know if anybody truly broke the rules or merely bent them. If they broke them, then they might be turning in their keys. Bottom line is that somebody is responsible for authorizing the spending of nearly $800,000 of somebody elses money. They either signed off on something where they didn't have authority or they failed in their oversight.

So then the relevant question should be: "What's the impact on projected maintenance costs?"

The mistake wasn't not telling the board (unless we added significantly to the future maintenance obligation). The mistake was blowing the budget.

I'm not saying it isn't a SNAFU. All I'm saying is if options are A: overrun a budget that doesn't contain a dime of taxpayer money without informing the board in order to get the building you need or B: tell the board you're going over and take a halfassed finished product as a result. That's an easy choice. A every time. You know your going to get your ass handed to you either way, you may as well get something for the trouble.

[bisonbills]

Being a Construction Management major, I find it pretty crazy that a project of this size could grow twice the size of it's original budget. Estimating and cost control are huge parts of our job. Many jobs run over budget, but twice the original estimate?

I couldn't care less how much it cost. I could have been $3 million. It doesn't matter to me. It just seems embarrassing to see it go so far over budget and it gives the NDSU haters ammo.

I will now take my beating. Thank you sir may I have another? :hide: :D

[roadwarrior]

I had a home built a couple of years ago and it wasn't that difficult to determine what the final cost would be. Every time I added something, my builder would tell me how much it would cost. A simple spreadsheet did the task.

[bisonbills]

I had a home built a couple of years ago and it wasn't that difficult to determine what the final cost would be. Every time I added something, my builder would tell me how much it would cost. A simple spreadsheet did the task.

That's what I'm saying. If he told you it would cost $180,000 in the original bid, started doing the work and incrementally, it made it up to $360,000, would you ever hire that guy again?

Again, to reiterate my point, I think the house is a great idea and desperately needed. I just think if they thought the house would come anywhere near that cost, SOMEONE should have had an idea it would climb there.

[Bison"FANatic"]

It was done with private money but whoever was in charge of the construction costs and financial affairs of this project could be considered incompetent. 10% no big deal, 20% well your pushing it. 2x the original cost, well someone may lose there job I would not feel comfortable with them overseeing any project I gave them in the future.

The thing is if they would have just went to the SBOHE and said here is were we are at and here is where we are going and here are the funds we are going to use for it and this is the donors they came from and they were for this specific project. It would be a non issue.

[roadwarrior]

In the end though, the State of North Dakota got a gift of a home that should last 100 years and will definitely be a positive the next time that NDSU needs to do a search for a new president.

[tony]

In the end though, the State of North Dakota got a gift of a home that should last 100 years and will definitely be a positive the next time that NDSU needs to do a search for a new president.

Gets worse: The last story I read was the state money was use to furnish both houses... that is not going to fly. The development foundations should have to pay the state back for that, I would think.

Edit: The story I just read, it mentioned that UND spent $500k in site preparation and planning but did not include it in their $1.2 million total... Sounds to me like the guys running the show didn't know what should and should not be included against the mandated total.

[MNLonghorn10]

maybe the extra 900,000 goes towards a 24 hour/ 7 day a week/ 365 day a year security guard?

[bisonbills]

Anyone want get into the security guard business with me????:D

[Tatanka]

Edit: The story I just read, it mentioned that UND spent $500k in site preparation and planning but did not include it in their $1.2 million total... Sounds to me like the guys running the show didn't know what should and should not be included against the mandated total.

This just in: Bismarck Tribune hears about this, does nothing.

[coldspot]

This just in: Bismarck Tribune hears about this, does nothing.

people that run city of bismarck/ bismarck tribune = und grads???

[bisonmike2]

people that run city of bismarck/ bismarck tribune = und grads???

maybe but if they were I'd expect them to run a story about how UND finished 500K under budget or how NDSU stole money from UND to finish their presidents house. Simply omitting key information may just make them SDSU grads.

[DjKyRo]

It would have been 1.2 million but Chapman insisted they use $100 bills to stuff his pillows and couch cushions with. I heard a rumor that the fireplace will be fueled in the winter with stacks of 20's, again another Chapman request. /sacrasm

Don't forget the solid gold toilet with $100's as toilet paper, you can't rough it these days.

[tony]

You know what's interesting about all the news stories on this? It always leads with NDSU. All stress the $1.8. Then at the very end, the story mentions that UND went over by 22k and, oh, there was this other $100k and another $69k, and oh, yeah, $500k in site prep and design.

Hatchet job - I mean, I suppose the writers might have convinced themselves that it wouldn't be fair to include the $500k of site prep and whatnot in UND's total because part of it is supposed to be for a new alumni center, not the house. But here's the deal: UND has just begun fund raising for the alumni center and certainly hasn't got permission to build it yet. So let me get this straight: UND is getting a pass on $500,000 in expenses because part of it was incurred because they have begun physical work on an unauthorized project?

WOW.

[Tatanka]

You know what's interesting about all the news stories on this? It always leads with NDSU. All stress the $1.8. Then at the very end, the story mentions that UND went over by 22k and, oh, there was this other $100k and another $69k, and oh, yeah, $500k in site prep and design.

Hatchet job - I mean, I suppose the writers might have convinced themselves that it wouldn't be fair to include the $500k of site prep and whatnot in UND's total because part of it is supposed to be for a new alumni center, not the house. But here's the deal: UND has just begun fund raising for the alumni center and certainly hasn't got permission to build it yet. So let me get this straight: UND is getting a pass on $500,000 in expenses because part of it was incurred because they have begun physical work on an unauthorized project?

WOW.

Not to mention the "we're absolutely on budget. Oh, wait, except for this, but you can't really fault us for missing that. Oh, and this too, but that's an honest mistake. Oh, and this whole pile over here? Well, technically we should have reported that too."

This in no way exhonorates either school; all I'm asking for is equal treatment. This has some very interesting parallels to the press' handing of the D-I moves... :smh:

[NorthernBison]

Both schools got taken to the woodshed yesterday over this. According to the Forum, the NDSU project included $370,000 in public money and there was $260,000 in public money in the UND project.

That means the "private money" defense is out the window. Clearly there is a violation of State Law involved. I will be interested to see what the impact of that is.

I can assure you that, in most jobs, if you violate written policy and the law exposing the company to financial and legal problems, you will be lucky to remain employed.

The SBoHE needs to more clearly define the process for reporting cost overruns because these two aren't the only projects that have exceeded approval amounts. Nonetheless, this type of gross mismanagement is likely to cause some real problems in the future. Expect much more SBoHE meddling and Legislative micromanagement.

[GOB1SON]

There will be very little impact other than a bunch of panties wadded up into little balls in press rooms and on internet sites and in a couple of offices out in Bismarck.

Joe Chapman is the most influential politician ND has seen in 50 years. There's a reason Hoeven is in his suite for every home game.

I have a feeling if Dr. Chapman thought this was a big deal, he would have dealt with it differently. However, he did not, so I expect it will go away shortly.

[tony]

I have a feeling if Dr. Chapman thought this was a big deal, he would have dealt with it differently. However, he did not, so I expect it will go away shortly.

Well, we don't have any idea what input Chapman had on the project. The state funds bit... well, the state gave up that kind of control over budgets. The universities get their money and they have a lot of autonomy over how it is spent. I mean, even when the legislature micro-managed the university budgets, the state Attorney General found no violation of law when UND used money designated for a medical school building project and used it to help with a deficit in the athletic department. That said, using state money on furnishing on the house is not going to fly politically and Chapman is responsible for that (and even though they said there was no violation of state law in the example I gave, there were reprecussions.)

[bisonaudit]

Not to mention the "we're absolutely on budget. Oh, wait, except for this, but you can't really fault us for missing that. Oh, and this too, but that's an honest mistake. Oh, and this whole pile over here? Well, technically we should have reported that too."

This in no way exhonorates either school; all I'm asking for is equal treatment. This has some very interesting parallels to the press' handing of the D-I moves... :smh:

The media is totally innumerate. I think its ignorance more than a hatchet job.

[GOB1SON]

Well, we don't have any idea what input Chapman had on the project. The state funds bit... well, the state gave up that kind of control over budgets. The universities get their money and they have a lot of autonomy over how it is spent. I mean, even when the legislature micro-managed the university budgets, the state Attorney General found no violation of law when UND used money designated for a medical school building project and used it to help with a deficit in the athletic department. That said, using state money on furnishing on the house is not going to fly politically and Chapman is responsible for that (and even though they said there was no violation of state law in the example I gave, there were repercussions.)

Couple of things:

I don't know Dr. Chapman, other than meeting him at a couple of sporting events and serving him supper one night (long story), but from the outside looking in, I have a feeling he knew what was going on. In fact, I am certain, he knew about the cost overruns.

I agree on the once the money is in the checkbook, the U has great discretion on how to use it, and they should, within certain parameters. Did this house dance outside of those parameters? Probably.

But, and this was my point in the previous post, it doesn't matter. If my first point about Chapman knowing is right, and he did nothing to address it, then he wasn't worried about it, and I am pretty sure if he isn't worried about it, it will be a non-factor. If it meant too much bad press, or even more importantly, there would be repercussions from the state legislature, things would have been done differently. He is too shrewd of a politician to let something blow up on him.

[tony]

That means the "private money" defense is out the window. Clearly there is a violation of State Law involved. I will be interested to see what the impact of that is.

Absolutely not. I responded to this earlier but this is a pretty serious charge. There would be no violation of state law if NDSU used tax money on something because state law gives NDSU and UND a lot of autonomy when it comes to their budgets.

The example I gave before (UND used funds specifically earmarked for the medical school to prop up the athletic department) was found to be legal - even though that happened when the State Legislator micromanaged the university system.

Using part of NDSU's budget on expenses related to the project is not illegal but it is politically explosive. And that can turn out to be even more damaging.

[NorthernBison]

Absolutely not. I responded to this earlier but this is a pretty serious charge. There would be no violation of state law if NDSU used tax money on something because state law gives NDSU and UND a lot of autonomy when it comes to their budgets.

The example I gave before (UND used funds specifically earmarked for the medical school to prop up the athletic department) was found to be legal - even though that happened when the State Legislator micromanaged the university system.

Using part of NDSU's budget on expenses related to the project is not illegal but it is politically explosive. And that can turn out to be even more damaging.

Laura Glatt is the Vice Chancellor for Administrative Affairs for the SboHE. She cautioned business officers at all the Universities about policies regarding spending limits set by the Board and Legislators. (Taken from an article in the GF Herald on 9-17)

In it she pointed out that the North Dakota Century code says it is unlawful for a State officer to spend or agree to a contract to spend any amount in excess of what was authorized. A State officer who violates the law could be charged with a Class B misdemeanor.

The Board authorized $900,000 for each project. They spent nearly double that amount. Somebody authorized the extra spending. Probably somebody in the Business office who is a State Employee.

I doubt if anybody will face legal issues with regard to this. I even doubt if anybody will get fired. I do expect that the SBoHE will now set out some clear black and white guidelines about reporting on all building projects, the procedures for getting appprovals for cost overruns, and defining where responsibility lies. Basically, do it right or next time people get fired and worse.

What ticks me off the most about this is the stupidity of allowing a good project to be mismanaged to the point where, in the future, the Universities get treated like a bunch of 6 year olds.

Please don't try to tell me that this "accidentally" went $900,000 over budget and nobody thought it might be a good idea to inform the Board. Especially after they asked several times if $900,000 was enough and were assured that it was. Wow!

[tony]

Please don't try to tell me that this "accidentally" went $900,000 over budget and nobody thought it might be a good idea to inform the Board. Especially after they asked several times if $900,000 was enough and were assured that it was. Wow!

Hehe, oh, I'm not trying to tell anybody that NDSU accidentally went over the budget but if you are going to say NDSU went $900k, then UND went over by $800k. When two universities do the same thing, that seems like it could be a systematic problem, but, yeah, the part in bold really gets me too.:banghead:

Honestly, it looks to me that NDSU coded stuff properly but UND said, "Anything over $900k goes into 'Site Prep'."

To me, the hatchet job in all this is that NDSU went over budget but UND went over budget by an almost identical amount PLUS they started work on a project that hasn't even been authorized yet. Not only are they getting no flak for that, but UND is using their unauthorized project to disguise cost overruns in the "house" project.

Are there two sets of laws in this state: One that applies to NDSU and another that applies to UND? Sure seems like it.

[Bison Dan]

Hehe, oh, I'm not trying to tell anybody that NDSU accidentally went over the budget but if you are going to say NDSU went $900k, then UND went over by $800k. When two universities do the same thing, that seems like it could be a systematic problem, but, yeah, the part in bold really gets me too.:banghead:

Honestly, it looks to me that NDSU coded stuff properly but UND said, "Anything over $900k goes into 'Site Prep'."

To me, the hatchet job in all this is that NDSU went over budget but UND went over budget by an almost identical amount PLUS they started work on a project that hasn't even been authorized yet. Not only are they getting no flak for that, but UND is using their unauthorized project to disguise cost overruns in the "house" project.

Are there two sets of laws in this state: One that applies to NDSU and another that applies to UND? Sure seems like it.


Tony break down the costs for each project if you have the time.

[NDSUstudent]

You want media bias....I was listening to Joe Heitkamp today and on the air he was playing out a scenario about how people at the Fargo Forum were all sitting in a room trying to plan how they could spin this story to deflect it away from their guy Chapman. Meanwhile he spent most of the rest of his entire show ripping on NDSU and saying next to nothing about UND.

I think NDSU is largely to blame but I also think NDSU is bit scared to go the legislature with a price tag of around $2 million because some legislators would balk at the cost. Even if it is privately funded. A huge problem this state continues to have is that many are out of touch as to what it takes to be a competitive national university. People bitched about the house when it was 900k, they whined about giving Chapman a raise, I think some even complained about the money Bohl is getting paid. Some people just have this condition about being a North Dakotan and having to do things a certain way and a part of that is not spending too much money.

A caller on 790 brought up that Purdue spent 3.6 million on their President's house and I believe Hietkamp himself said that North Dakota was too small to build something that expensive(I think he was even making a case that 1.8 million was too much. I swear if these people were anything but a vocal minority, this state would forever lag decades behind the rest of the nation.

[NorthernBison]

Hehe, oh, I'm not trying to tell anybody that NDSU accidentally went over the budget but if you are going to say NDSU went $900k, then UND went over by $800k. When two universities do the same thing, that seems like it could be a systematic problem, but, yeah, the part in bold really gets me too.:banghead:

Honestly, it looks to me that NDSU coded stuff properly but UND said, "Anything over $900k goes into 'Site Prep'."

To me, the hatchet job in all this is that NDSU went over budget but UND went over budget by an almost identical amount PLUS they started work on a project that hasn't even been authorized yet. Not only are they getting no flak for that, but UND is using their unauthorized project to disguise cost overruns in the "house" project.

Are there two sets of laws in this state: One that applies to NDSU and another that applies to UND? Sure seems like it.

The article in the GF Herald indicates that both NDSU and UND got rapped by the board. It sure sounds like $1.7M for UND and $1.8M for NDSU. Apparently, the NDSU request for approval (after the fact) was agenda item 25 and questions about the UND home were raised and it got added as 25a.

I think both projects were necessary. I really don't have a big problem with what they ended up costing (especially since there was a lot of private money in both).

What really bothers me is that BOTH Universities had people in positions of authority who botched the oversight and apparently don't have much regard for policies. Cripes, follow the rules. How hard is that? If you don't have the authority to approve something, ask somebody who does. I, like a lot of other people, deal with big expenditures and written policies and manage to follow the rules. I know that, if I ignored policy to this extent, I wouldn't need to worry about coming back to work.

[HooliganBison]

Last night of the forum website around 3am it had NDSU and und getting chastised. But when I woke up now it only has NDSU being chastised. So whoever the guy running the webiste prob got his butt chewed this morning when the und lovers showed up and saw it.

[NDSUstudent]

Last night of the forum website around 3am it had NDSU and und getting chastised. But when I woke up now it only has NDSU being chastised. So whoever the guy running the webiste prob got his butt chewed this morning when the und lovers showed up and saw it.

Yeah, I would love to know the true number that UND is over budget, but I won't be holding my breath waiting for the answer.

[tony]

Tony break down the costs for each project if you have the time.

Honestly, I don't know if I can... the Amy Dalrymple story in the Forum doesn't make any sense yet - don't think she has the numbers right.

Here's what I gather the damages are so far:

Totals: NDSU $1.8 million, UND $1.7 million

There is no way I can figure to do an apples to apples comparison of any other numbers except for the amount of tax money used because, frankly, the information provided by the media is so incredibly bad. NDSU says $370k and UND says "about $200k". Even now, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in UND's numbers when they say that they say "about $200k" and come up with an impressively large and round number of $500k for "site prep and stuff."

[GradBison]

Wow.. Having started this thread, I feel obliged to say what a cluster flop on behalf of both universities!

The amount of budget overrun, the use of state money, and the way the whole mess was (miss)handled. Disappointing.

[met1990]

So when does Chapman move in to the house? I assume he's throwing a Bisonville barbeque to christen it.

[TheBisonator]

You want media bias....I was listening to Joe Heitkamp today and on the air he was playing out a scenario about how people at the Fargo Forum were all sitting in a room trying to plan how they could spin this story to deflect it away from their guy Chapman. Meanwhile he spent most of the rest of his entire show ripping on NDSU and saying next to nothing about UND.

I think NDSU is largely to blame but I also think NDSU is bit scared to go the legislature with a price tag of around $2 million because some legislators would balk at the cost. Even if it is privately funded. A huge problem this state continues to have is that many are out of touch as to what it takes to be a competitive national university. People bitched about the house when it was 900k, they whined about giving Chapman a raise, I think some even complained about the money Bohl is getting paid. Some people just have this condition about being a North Dakotan and having to do things a certain way and a part of that is not spending too much money.

A caller on 790 brought up that Purdue spent 3.6 million on their President's house and I believe Hietkamp himself said that North Dakota was too small to build something that expensive(I think he was even making a case that 1.8 million was too much. I swear if these people were anything but a vocal minority, this state would forever lag decades behind the rest of the nation.

Like I tell people, North Dakotans think 1 dollar is worth 1,000 dollars. That sums up this state in a nutshell.

[Bison bison]

Hey, Bisonator. That's a good thing.

[Tatanka]

Like I tell people, North Dakotans think 1 dollar is worth 1,000 dollars. That sums up this state in a nutshell.

Better than the other way around. See also: Surplus, $1B budget :nod:

[NorthernBison]

The Forum website has a side by side comparison of the two projects. Totals are $1.8M and $1.7M.

[Hammersmith]

So when does Chapman move in to the house? I assume he's throwing a Bisonville barbeque to christen it.

He's already moved in. That's one of the problems. The 12th Ave construction plus the spring flood caused the project to get behind schedule. But someone at NDSU decided that the house had to be ready for move-in by the beginning of the semester. Meeting that date required a lot of overtime and that helped drive up the cost. It didn't help that the vacillating between remodeling the old house and starting from scratch also cost time(and thus money). Not to say that was the only reason the project went so far over budget, but it played it's role.

And Chapman had to know what was happening. Two of the members of the committee that ran the project were his assistant and his wife.

I could almost see a case for using some public money on this project. If I remember right, the house has two kitchens. One is a fairly standard kitchen for the private use of the presidents' families. The other kitchen features the type of equipment needed for catering medium-sized events. I wouldn't have a big problem using public money to equip stuff like that second kitchen since it's far more for the benefit of the university rather than the president. Of course that's a pretty fine line to walk and I doubt the media or Bismarck would agree with my interpretations. And if I'm wrong about the two kitchens thing it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Bison"FANatic"]

You want media bias....I was listening to Joe Heitkamp today and on the air he was playing out a scenario about how people at the Fargo Forum were all sitting in a room trying to plan how they could spin this story to deflect it away from their guy Chapman. Meanwhile he spent most of the rest of his entire show ripping on NDSU and saying next to nothing about UND.

I think NDSU is largely to blame but I also think NDSU is bit scared to go the legislature with a price tag of around $2 million because some legislators would balk at the cost. Even if it is privately funded. A huge problem this state continues to have is that many are out of touch as to what it takes to be a competitive national university. People bitched about the house when it was 900k, they whined about giving Chapman a raise, I think some even complained about the money Bohl is getting paid. Some people just have this condition about being a North Dakotan and having to do things a certain way and a part of that is not spending too much money.

A caller on 790 brought up that Purdue spent 3.6 million on their President's house and I believe Hietkamp himself said that North Dakota was too small to build something that expensive(I think he was even making a case that 1.8 million was too much. I swear if these people were anything but a vocal minority, this state would forever lag decades behind the rest of the nation.


I liked the part where Heitkamp was demanding the Legislature do something about the outrageous spending at NDSU. I agree he barely brought up UND it is all NDSU. He takes anychance he can to dig on NDSU and any money they spend. I personally like how he says the legislature has never done anything. Ahhh waite were you not in the "do nothing" legislature till you took your nice payday to blab all morning on the radio and stir up items and try and make them into news.

Those that can't make it as a legislator go on the radio and blab blab blab and cry cry cry about things while the real work gets done in Bismarck. Stay classy and biased Joel.:smh: :smh: :smh:

[roadwarrior]

Hey they could have built a house like this one. (recently set a record for the highest sales price of a home in minneapolis)

http://www.startribune.com/photos/?c=y&img=3recordsale0918.jpg

[gotts]

Better than the other way around. See also: Surplus, $1B budget :nod:

So what you're saying is, it's like we've got a one trillion dollar surplus? :D

[Tatanka]

So what you're saying is, it's like we've got a one trillion dollar surplus? :D

Exactamundo!

[ndsubison1]

still trying to understand heitkamps jabs at hoeven and chapman... people in ND need to get a clue about higher education... this isnt about chapman, it's about improving our campus, university, and trying to make it the best we can. like kolpack said, it's about recruiting the best possible president and such for future years

[NorthernBison]

still trying to understand heitkamps jabs at hoeven and chapman... people in ND need to get a clue about higher education... this isnt about chapman, it's about improving our campus, university, and trying to make it the best we can. like kolpack said, it's about recruiting the best possible president and such for future years

Partisan Politics.

Please tell me that your first comment was rhetorical.

The rest of what you said was pretty much spot on although there is a very large part of the state that will never see it that way.

[Bison bison]

Bismarck Tribune's insight on the issue: http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/opinion/editorial/article_fe3737bc-a2e4-11de-b76c-001cc4c03286.html

Definitely fishwrap material.

(Earth to Bowel Worm Fans, UND's house was more than half-a-million dollars over budget too!)

[bisonmike2]

Hey they could have built a house like this one. (recently set a record for the highest sales price of a home in minneapolis)

http://www.startribune.com/photos/?c=y&img=3recordsale0918.jpg

should have went all out and got this instead.
http://idx.diversesolutions.com/search/567/28#PropertyID=3271221

[NorthernBison]

Bismarck Tribune's insight on the issue: http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/opinion/editorial/article_fe3737bc-a2e4-11de-b76c-001cc4c03286.html

Definitely fishwrap material.

(Earth to Bowel Worm Fans, UND's house was more than half-a-million dollars over budget too!)

In fairness to the Bismarck Trib, they wrote that BEFORE it became known that UND was in the same cost range as NDSU. The Trib should really be mad at UND for shading the truth about their costs. They told everybody that they were under budget. In fairness to them I'm not going to call them a bunch of liars as long as they admit their incompetence at managing a building project. I hope they don't have any Construction Management courses up there.

[Da Bison]

In fairness to the Bismarck Trib, they wrote that BEFORE it became known that UND was in the same cost range as NDSU. The Trib should really be mad at UND for shading the truth about their costs. They told everybody that they were under budget. In fairness to them I'm not going to call them a bunch of liars as long as they admit their incompetence at managing a building project. I hope they don't have any Construction Management courses up there.


No............... they have a law school.

Q: Which does what???

A: Teaches people to lie!!

Don't blame this on the Construction Management Dept. or Industry.

This was all a present from TL Stroh who as an Architect bills himself as a CM.
He is full of s**t. He wanted a monument to himself & he got it. He has never met a cost overrun he couldn't blame on someone else.
I have worked on projects with him & you are always watching your back, because he isn't.:banghead:

[Bison Dan]

No............... they have a law school.

Q: Which does what???

A: Teaches people to lie!!

Don't blame this on the Construction Management Dept. or Industry.

This was all a present from TL Stroh who as an Architect bills himself as a CM.
He is full of s**t. He wanted a monument to himself & he got it. He has never met a cost overrun he couldn't blame on someone else.
I have worked on projects with him & you are always watching your back, because he isn't.:banghead:

I never saw a architect that didn't blame someone else for their mistakes.

[NorthernBison]

No............... they have a law school.

Q: Which does what???

A: Teaches people to lie!!

Don't blame this on the Construction Management Dept. or Industry.

This was all a present from TL Stroh who as an Architect bills himself as a CM.
He is full of s**t. He wanted a monument to himself & he got it. He has never met a cost overrun he couldn't blame on someone else.
I have worked on projects with him & you are always watching your back, because he isn't.:banghead:

Sorry if I stepped on some Construction Management toes. I have a lot of respect for what a good construction manager can add to a project. In this case, I think a Middle School student with a laptop and a spreadsheet that they designed could have tracked the costs and reported on progress as well as the people who were in charge. (Actually that goes for both projects)

[IzzyFlexion]

Sorry if I stepped on some Construction Management toes. I have a lot of respect for what a good construction manager can add to a project. In this case, I think a Middle School student with a laptop and a spreadsheet that they designed could have tracked the costs and reported on progress as well as the people who were in charge. (Actually that goes for both projects)

NorthernBison, sorry for going off topic but I never did hear back from you on the linebacker from Langdon that NDSU is looking at (Lorenz, I think?) Can you give us some insight on him? If so, you can put it in the FB recruiting thread. Also, how good is the Crockett kid? I went to HS with his mom.
Thanks.

[heckler]

970AM now talking about the house.

[bisonmike2]

970AM now talking about the house.

/sarcasm on/ I assume they are also talking about UND's Presidents house?/sarcasm off/

[Tatanka]

/sarcasm on/ I assume they are also talking about UND's Presidents house?/sarcasm off/

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss338/jamesofchaos/ROFLMAO.jpg

:uhyeah:

[Hammersmith]

This could go in a couple different threads or even a new one, but I think this is a good place despite what is said in the article about it being unconnected to the residence project.

NDSU President Joe Chapman’s deferred pay eliminated (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256085)

I don't know if this is going to help or hurt the situation. The part of the article the headline refers to will be good(the deferred pay was a legacy of the time when the base salary set by the SBoHE was absurdly low), but the info in the last half of the article will probably create yet another backlash. There's too much to summarize, so just read the article and draw your own conclusions.

[The_Sicatoka]

Oh 'tony' ... I thought this only happened "up north" ... :hide:


Several trustees were traveling Monday and were unavailable, and others did not return calls seeking comment.

Better?


President Chapman and his wife declined to be interviewed for this story.

[bisonmike2]

Oh 'tony' ... I thought this only happened "up north" ... :hide:



Better?

Hmmm. Wonder where they learned that trick from?

"You alright! I learned it by watching you!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo

[The_Sicatoka]

Hey, that was pretty funny. As a reward, grab some money out of one of the slush funds and take yourself out to lunch. :hungry:

Oh, wait, ... there's no more money in those. :banghead:

[Bison bison]

When is the Forum going to request information from the UND Foundation?

[Tatanka]

McFooly assured everyone on Friday that he would be looking into the UND budget over run as well!

And I am sure they will dedicate the same hours and hours of airtime and the pages and pages of Forum coverage to the und issue as they did to the NDSU issue.:rolleyes:

What? I'm sure there will be a two incher in column 4 of page 7 in the Sunday classifieds, followed by a mention during Art Bell's former time slot in between grain price reports. That's about as equal as coverage gets.

[imabison]

This could go in a couple different threads or even a new one, but I think this is a good place despite what is said in the article about it being unconnected to the residence project.

NDSU President Joe Chapman’s deferred pay eliminated (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256085)

I don't know if this is going to help or hurt the situation. The part of the article the headline refers to will be good(the deferred pay was a legacy of the time when the base salary set by the SBoHE was absurdly low), but the info in the last half of the article will probably create yet another backlash. There's too much to summarize, so just read the article and draw your own conclusions.

Somewhere in this article it states that the NDSU Development Foundation was responsible for the construction of the Presidents house. Also how do they not get the proper paperwork done for the IRS so they have to pay the $ 75,000 deferred compensation 2 years in a row to Champman.

[The_Sicatoka]

Hey, the Forum looked into the travel to Obama's swearing in for both Chapman and Kelley.

You wanted UND and NDSU both looked at. Here it is.

Don't hurt yourselves doing this --> :banghead:

Enjoy.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/137078/

And it's not just KFGO throwing Joe under the bus ...

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/137045/

[The_Sicatoka]

Chapman's "discretionary" fund ... broken down ...

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256145/


The Forum obtained documentation for the president’s discretionary fund, including an item-by-item list of the $260,000 spent last year and President Joseph Chapman’s credit card bills.

Here are further details of how the discretionary money was spent on wining and dining and other perks:


•More than $6,000 for a Fargo Country Club dinner and social for the state Board of Higher Education.


•A $20,000 suite at the RedHawks games, plus about $16,500 in catering and other expenses for those events.


•More than $2,000 for Happy Harry’s Bottle Shops for a pre-game event during football season.


•More than $1,000 in dues for the Cosmos Club for Chapman. The private social club is in Washington, D.C.


•About $2,000 for two meals for dignitaries visiting from India, one at Seasons at Rose Creek and one at the Hotel Donaldson.


•$550 for Northwest Airlines World Club membership for Chapman and his wife. Another $450 for a World Club membership for Vice President Evie Myers.


•A couple of hundred dollars in cell phone charges for Gale Chapman are on the account, but the president used that phone for university business while he was in Uganda, according to spokeswoman Najla Amundson.

Chapman spent $38,450 on his university credit card for 2008-09, primarily for meals and travel.

According to figures provided by the Development Foundation, Chapman spent significantly more with the credit card in previous years. Between 2003-04 and 2007-08, the charges averaged more than $83,000.

The foundation reimbursed NDSU for 16 flights with the university-owned plane. That included lodging and meals for the flight crew in cases when they spent the night.

The largest expenses were more than $9,000 for attending alumni events in Maine and more than $17,000 for the Chapmans to fly to Washington, D.C. There also were several flights for athletic games.

Events to promote NDSU were covered by the discretionary fund as well, including more than $2,000 for NDSU Admissions to attend a college fair in Minneapolis.

[tony]

Chapman's "discretionary" fund ... broken down ...

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256145/

Worried about all that money you gave to NDSU's Development Foundation?

[Tatanka]

Chapman's "discretionary" fund ... broken down ...

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256145/

Thank you for your continued interest in NDSU and Bison athletics.

[The_Sicatoka]

Worried about all that money you gave to NDSU's Development Foundation?

No, but apparently the Foundation board is worried about the money that's been give to them. (And Barry Batchelor is a nice guy. He shouldn't have to deal with this stuff. He still is on the Foundation board, isn't he?)

PS - Tatanka, your needle on your vinyl 45 rpm is stuck, or are you more a 33 1/3 rpm. ;)

[BisonAccountant44]

Chapman's "discretionary" fund ... broken down ...

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/256145/

And your point is? There are only a few items on that list which I feel come close to falling outside of where one would expect a university president to be spending money.

Two small ones are the social club in DC and the World Club memberships. For $2k though, who really cares?

The only other items I may question would be the Redhawks suite, and trips to DC. Even then, if the suite was used around 6-8 times, probably not a bad deal. The only reason I even mention the trips to DC, is just because there is no reason for those trips listed. I don't think anyone would have to try too hard to come up with reasons why the president of a school like NDSU would make the occasional trip to DC, but seeing an example or two of what those trips were for would be nice.

[BisonAccountant44]

And your point is? There are only a few items on that list which I feel come close to falling outside of where one would expect a university president to be spending money.

Two small ones are the social club in DC and the World Club memberships. For $2k though, who really cares?

The only other items I may question would be the Redhawks suite, and trips to DC. Even then, if the suite was used around 6-8 times, probably not a bad deal. The only reason I even mention the trips to DC, is just because there is no reason for those trips listed. I don't think anyone would have to try too hard to come up with reasons why the president of a school like NDSU would make the occasional trip to DC, but seeing an example or two of what those trips were for would be nice.

* This is assuming the $22k trip to the inauguration is not included in these numbers. That trip was just ridiculous :banghead: .

[Tatanka]

No, but apparently the Foundation board is worried about the money that's been give to them. (And Barry Batchelor is a nice guy. He shouldn't have to deal with this stuff. He still is on the Foundation board, isn't he?)

PS - Tatanka, your needle on your vinyl 45 rpm is stuck, or are you more a 33 1/3 rpm. ;)

Thank you for your continued interest in NDSU and Bison athletics!

[The_Sicatoka]

Needle's still stuck.

Maybe Joe can get you a new one on the next $22k boondoggle.

[Tatanka]

Needle's still stuck.

Maybe Joe can get you a new one on the next $22k boondoggle.

Thank you for your continued interest in NDSU and Bison athletics!

[bisonmike2]

I think we're missing the real point here. NDSU's home is supposed to have cost upwards of 2 million. UND's came in around 1.8 million.

2 million > 1.8 million. Suck it UND! Our house is better!:)

/hold your outrage bisonville und'ites. just trying to make light of a shiatty situation

[met1990]

Suck it UND! Our house is better!:)



NDSU could have built a cardboard box shanty and it would have been better than UNDs. After all, NDSU's house is across the street from the Turf (and just a few blocks away from Chubs)!!!

[roadwarrior]

NDSU could have built a cardboard box shanty and it would have been better than UNDs. After all, NDSU's house is across the street from the Turf (and just a few blocks away from Chubs)!!!

Location! Location! Location!