PDA

View Full Version : USA v JAPAN World Baseball. payback time!



lakesbison
03-22-2009, 11:56 PM
Payback for 1941!! LETS DO THIS!!!!

coldspot
03-23-2009, 12:18 AM
Payback for 1941!! LETS DO THIS!!!!

not to put a damper on your motivation for this game, but i think we got them back sometime in 1945. we might have dropped some bombs on two of their cities. but yeah, LETS DO THIS!!!!

lakesbison
03-23-2009, 12:19 AM
U S A 1
Japan 0 Woo Hoo!!

sambini
03-23-2009, 04:31 AM
Usa Usa Usa+++++++++

bisonaudit
03-23-2009, 05:02 PM
That's what we get for playing Jeter in the field, and a marginal left fielder out of position in right.

lakesbison
03-23-2009, 05:07 PM
and a 1st baseman that didnt even have a first basements' mitt

gotts
03-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Yeah, injuries suck!

bisonaudit
03-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Yeah, injuries suck!

Who got hurt, that Jeter was playing short?

ndsubison1
03-23-2009, 08:01 PM
Rollins deserved to be playing SS over Jeter... better fielder and hitter :eek:

gotts
03-23-2009, 08:07 PM
Who got hurt, that Jeter was playing short?

Was referring to the Youkilis injury and DeRosa...

But you bring up a good point that Davey Johnson needs to not put a shortstop out there that's past his peak...

NorthernBison
03-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Other countries take this WBC seriously. Team USA is hampered by promises made by the manager to major league clubs on how he will use their players. They aren't his players to use.

Last night was a perfect example. Japan fills out a lineup card with 7 lefties. Davey Johnson says he has the left-handed arms to shut the Japanese down but still starts Oswalt because he has to get Roy his work (apparently). By the time he gets the lefties in the game, the USA is down a bunch of runs. Game is basically over.

Other countries play this to win the title. We are trying to avoid getting embarrassed.

bisonaudit
03-24-2009, 01:40 PM
Was referring to the Youkilis injury and DeRosa...

But you bring up a good point that Davey Johnson needs to not put a shortstop out there that's past his peak...

It's got less to do with Jeter being passed his prime than with the fact that he was never a great defender to begin with.

coldspot
03-24-2009, 02:58 PM
i cringed everytime i saw jeter starting at short and rollins not playing or stuck in the DH spot. i absolutely hate the yankees with a burning passion but ive always like jeter, but the last few years he's dropped off plus theres a whole new batch of stud SS that could have played. why not do the team up with a starting lineup of all stars/future HOF'ers and then have the backups be some young studs in the minors. if you want to see how hungry they really are to be in the big leagues let them play in a game that means something, not that spring training bull crap.


/end rant. im just a little hurt that we didnt win the WBC again.:banghead:

lcbison
03-24-2009, 03:56 PM
Where the heck was Tim Lincecum. Could they not have added him to the roster for the final round?? He is the best pitcher in baseball (american). How about Cole Hamels??

Also, Derek Jeter is OLD. J-Roll should have played the whole tourney. Joe "I'm going to be DHing in 3 years" Mauer would have helped alot if he wasn't hurt again.

This WBC could have really taken off, if they would organize it better.

lakesbison
03-24-2009, 05:19 PM
it was fun to watch japan and korea last night, they had stadiums filled halfway across the world going crazy. good stuff actually.

ndsubison1
03-24-2009, 07:58 PM
Where the heck was Tim Lincecum. Could they not have added him to the roster for the final round?? He is the best pitcher in baseball (american). How about Cole Hamels??

Also, Derek Jeter is OLD. J-Roll should have played the whole tourney. Joe "I'm going to be DHing in 3 years" Mauer would have helped alot if he wasn't hurt again.

This WBC could have really taken off, if they would organize it better.

a lot of players stick with their commitments to their MLB teams... Lincecum choose not to participate so he could get ready for the '09 season.

Hamels also said he would not play for Team USA so he could rest and get ready for the upcoming season... a lot of guys choose not to play because of MLB obligations and teams also discourage players to play for obvious reasons... if Team USA was at full strength we would no doubt win this thing

bisonpride
03-25-2009, 03:18 PM
The WBC needs to take place in Mid-November when everyone pretty much in regular season form so we dont need to have 60 pitch count limits and hitters all still have their timing from the regular season. By having it then it would not have to be stretched out over an entire month like it is. Idea behind it is great, but the design and time is terrible.

BraxtonT
03-29-2009, 06:43 PM
It's got less to do with Jeter being passed his prime than with the fact that he was never a great defender to begin with.

This is coming from the guy who thinks Alex Rodgriguez is one of the greatest players of all time?!!!!

Jeter = Winner

That being said, I'd have played Jimmy Rollins, too. Jeter should have been the DH.

bisonpride
03-30-2009, 03:01 PM
This is coming from the guy who thinks Alex Rodgriguez is one of the greatest players of all time?!!!!

Jeter = Winner

That being said, I'd have played Jimmy Rollins, too. Jeter should have been the DH.

Jeter = Overrated

Not to be too harsh but what has he won in the past 8 years. I think he is definitely a great player, but would not receive near the hype had he played for someone like the Royals or Twins. I feel his stats get a nice boost because of the lineup that hits behind him. Rollins is a better defensive player and covers more ground as well as better offensively.

bisonaudit
03-30-2009, 08:00 PM
This is coming from the guy who thinks Alex Rodgriguez is one of the greatest players of all time?!!!!

Jeter = Winner

That being said, I'd have played Jimmy Rollins, too. Jeter should have been the DH.

Jeter is a great player and if he stays healthy will get 3,000 hits and a much deserved plaque in Cooperstown. But he's a starting major league shortstop because of his bat not his glove. Rollins (the best defensive short stop in baseball last year) should have been playing the field.

For bisonpride: Rollins's bat did deserve to be in that lineup, but after you take into account the band box where he plays half his games and the AAA pitching he faces in the NL, Jeter is a better hitter.

BraxtonT
03-31-2009, 08:32 PM
Jeter is a great player and if he stays healthy will get 3,000 hits and a much deserved plaque in Cooperstown. But he's a starting major league shortstop because of his bat not his glove. Rollins (the best defensive short stop in baseball last year) should have been playing the field.

For bisonpride: Rollins's bat did deserve to be in that lineup, but after you take into account the band box where he plays half his games and the AAA pitching he faces in the NL, Jeter is a better hitter.

Audit: I agree, Rollins should have been playing defense. I've seen DJ make some pretty bad throws the last few years, but when the game is on the line, he makes the big plays that need to be made. I'll sacrifice an occasional throwing error for the other things that he does on the field. With Teixeira over at first, look for DJ's fielding percentage to go up.

Bisonpride: Overrated? I guess that depends on the source. Some (me) think he is a great player. Others don't think he's that great. Great, good, OK, subpar, terrible. None of that matters to me. For the Yankees, I wouldn't want any other player playing shortstop for them right now. Not saying he is the 'best' shortstop according to statistics, but he is the best guy to play the position for that team.

jeffdaryl3rd
03-31-2009, 10:33 PM
The fact of the matter is that when you look at Jeter's range factor last year he ranked 16th among 18 qualifying MLB shortstops at 4.05 (as compared to Rollins, 6th at 4.52) and he was also 5th in fielding percentage at .979 (as compared to Rollins, 1st at .988). The fact of the matter is that Jeter simply has never been the elite defensive shortstop he has been purported to be. His value over his career has been that he is an elite 2-hole hitter (and above average leadoff hitter) who brought excellent offensive value to a defensive position, where early in his career he was an average defender. At this point he still has an above average arm for a middle of the diamond player, but his previously average range has declined and he is no longer a starting calibre defender at SS. That being said, his ability to make plays to his right and his ability to cut down runners on outfield relay throws would make him an above-average defender at 2B, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

BraxtonT
04-01-2009, 04:17 AM
The fact of the matter is that when you look at Jeter's range factor last year he ranked 16th among 18 qualifying MLB shortstops at 4.05 (as compared to Rollins, 6th at 4.52) and he was also 5th in fielding percentage at .979 (as compared to Rollins, 1st at .988). The fact of the matter is that Jeter simply has never been the elite defensive shortstop he has been purported to be. His value over his career has been that he is an elite 2-hole hitter (and above average leadoff hitter) who brought excellent offensive value to a defensive position, where early in his career he was an average defender. At this point he still has an above average arm for a middle of the diamond player, but his previously average range has declined and he is no longer a starting calibre defender at SS. That being said, his ability to make plays to his right and his ability to cut down runners on outfield relay throws would make him an above-average defender at 2B, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I have no idea what that means and don't care to know what that means. To me, that is like saying a certain wide receiver should play over another one because he can run faster and cut better. Those skills look great, but if the guy can't catch, he's not helping.

I'll take the guy who is still willing to sacrifice his body diving into the stands and will do anything he can to help his team win. By the way, that is not an endorsement that DJ is the best shortstop in baseball right now, but he is NOT in the bottom 11%, either.

bisonaudit
04-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Let's throw fielding percentage out. Anything that's built on errors is a virtually meaningless statistic.

The advanced defensive stats like range factors and zone ratings have gotten better in the last 5 years but there's still a ways to go. In another 5 years it's going to be night and day from what we know now.

People don't trust defensive stats because they tend not to agree with what their eyes are telling them, but that's poised to change. HitFX is coming and it'll be a revolution. They'll record the launch angle, velocity, trajectory, the bat angle at impact in three dimensions, where the ball went and how long it took to get there, etc. of every batted ball in the league.

For now range factors and zone ratings are infinately better than errors, and fielding percentage. Range Factors are based on how many outs (putouts and assists) a defender makes in a given amount of baseball time (inning, game, per 27 outs, etc.) Not to bad for comparing players at the same position, but things can get skewed depending on who your neighboor is, hit type, location, how hard it's hit, park factors, pitching, etc. are not accounted for.

Zone Ratings are built off of play-by-play data and the recorded positions and hit types of every batted ball. Probably better than range factors but still has weaknesses. How hard a ball is hit isn't accounted for nor is the handedness of hitters or park factors.

Fielding statistics after nearly 100 years of complete inattention are evolving rapidly.

For now what we think we know (fangraps.com) indicates that over the last three seasons Jeter was the third worst fielding full time shortstop in baseball just ahead of Hanley Ramirez and Felipe Lopez. Fortunately for Jeter and Ramirez they were the 2nd and 1st best hitting shortstops in the game over that same period.

Roll it all together and Ramirez comes out on top followed by Rollins, Jose Reyes and Jeter in 4th. 4 of the next 5 guys on my list are about the same age as Jeter or older (J.J. Hardy is the only expection). Clearly, Jeter is still an exceptional player despite his shortcomings defensively.

jeffdaryl3rd
04-01-2009, 11:35 PM
I have no idea what that means and don't care to know what that means. To me, that is like saying a certain wide receiver should play over another one because he can run faster and cut better. Those skills look great, but if the guy can't catch, he's not helping.

I'll take the guy who is still willing to sacrifice his body diving into the stands and will do anything he can to help his team win. By the way, that is not an endorsement that DJ is the best shortstop in baseball right now, but he is NOT in the bottom 11%, either.

Look, numbers aside anyone who watches Derek Jeter with an educated eye sees, especially at this point in his career, a significantly below average defensive shortstop. He still hits, he can still steal bases and he adds a lot of value to the top of a lineup by seeing as many pitches as he does. It doesn't mean he isn't a valuable player, it just means the Yankees would probably be better off with him either at second or--in a move that would probably make more sense given the current makeup of the Yankees roster--moving out to LF/RF in place of Xavier Nady/Nick Swisher/Johnny Damon/Hideki Matsui.

cvbison1
04-01-2009, 11:36 PM
i didn't know there were so many MLB Managers on this board.

bisonaudit
04-02-2009, 01:51 AM
I'm not saying that the Yankees should relocate Jeter from short. He's just the beginning of their defensive issues.

What I am saying is it was inexcusable to play Jeter in the field instead of Rollins in the WBC.

coldspot
04-02-2009, 02:05 AM
i didn't know there were so many MLB Managers on this board.

you mean a year of coaching babe ruth and years of mlb video games doesnt qualify me as an mlb manager? way to crush my dreams.

cvbison1
04-02-2009, 02:14 AM
you mean a year of coaching babe ruth and years of mlb video games doesnt qualify me as an mlb manager? way to crush my dreams.

haha, well i guess you qualify as a manager cuz i love you.

bisonaudit
04-03-2009, 05:07 PM
Some love for advanced defensive stats from the STrib and SI.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/42298087.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUqCP:iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU LPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153911/1/index.htm

bisonpride
04-05-2009, 03:54 AM
I have no idea what that means and don't care to know what that means. To me, that is like saying a certain wide receiver should play over another one because he can run faster and cut better. Those skills look great, but if the guy can't catch, he's not helping.

I'll take the guy who is still willing to sacrifice his body diving into the stands and will do anything he can to help his team win. By the way, that is not an endorsement that DJ is the best shortstop in baseball right now, but he is NOT in the bottom 11%, either.

That stat refers to the number of chances he has per game. Fewer chances from a SS basically means they lack range. If you lack range you give up more ground ball base hits which can cost runs. The backhand jumping throw you see him do alot is because of his poor range but makes up for it because of his strong throwing arm. He turns what is a routine back hand play for the majority of short stops into a highlight real play which then the New York media eats up. Which is why I said he is over rated. He is definitely a great player but because of where he plays we are told to think of him as an all-time great which i think he is just a step below.

As far as the play where he went into the stands... Most SS make that play with out having to fly face first. I applaud him for sacrificing his body to get the ball but you see alot of other players doing the same but it doesnt get shown in replays like Jeter receives.

ndsubison1
04-05-2009, 05:25 AM
id prefer a better hitter and defensive player but that's just me... jeter aint what he used to be, ppl need to get over it, there are better SS out there now. rollins had an off year last year but his team still won the world series, plus in 2007 he was NL MVP...

bisonaudit
04-06-2009, 03:12 PM
id prefer a better hitter and defensive player but that's just me... jeter aint what he used to be, ppl need to get over it, there are better SS out there now. rollins had an off year last year but his team still won the world series, plus in 2007 he was NL MVP...

There's nothing wrong w/ Jeter's bat.

Rollins had the second best year of his career in 2008 so I wouldn't say he was 'off' at all.

About the only thing more meaningless than an MVP vote is a Gold Glove. Rollins wasn't even the most valuable guy on his team in 2007 (Utley). Ditto Morneau the year he won it.

Rollins is a better player than Jeter but not because Jeter can't hit, not because Rollins has an MVP, and certainly not because Rollins didn't play to his potential last season.