what's taking so long?

[bisonmike2]

Anybody else heard the myth of the hydraulic hybrid? Rumors are that Ford has an F-150 that can get 60 mpg with the use of capturing energy from braking into hydraulic sytems, which are then turned around into using the stored hydraulic power to launch the vechicle. I thought it was bunk until I found this pdf from the EPA. It's dated back in March 2004. So what the hell is taking them so long? I would buy one of these in a second. I get to drive a truck/suv and get 60 mph. I really hope this is true.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/technology/420f04024.pdf

[aces1180]

Anybody else heard the myth of the hydraulic hybrid? Rumors are that Ford has an F-150 that can get 60 mpg with the use of capturing energy from braking into hydraulic sytems, which are then turned around into using the stored hydraulic power to launch the vechicle. I thought it was bunk until I found this pdf from the EPA. It's dated back in March 2004. So what the hell is taking them so long? I would buy one of these in a second. I get to drive a truck/suv and get 60 mph. I really hope this is true.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/technology/420f04024.pdf

My guess is it has been held off because of companies like Exxon-Mobile...Gas guzzlers sell more fuel, which leads to billions of dollars in sales.

[met1990]

Less gas used means less tax revenue as well. I have a feeling a few states will be in a pinch when taxes fall as people are driving less (or less stupidly, as the case may be).

[bisonaudit]

If we're serious about getting off of oil why not enact a tax regime to keep gasoline at or about $4 a gallon. In the short term is would increase revenues for state and federal infrastructure programs while providing an incentive for the development and adoption of alternatives.

[bisonmike2]

If we're serious about getting off of oil why not enact a tax regime to keep gasoline at or about $4 a gallon. In the short term is would increase revenues for state and federal infrastructure programs while providing an incentive for the development and adoption of alternatives.

Riots would ensue if a floor price scheme was enacted. No way people would be ok with paying $4 a gallon if they knew they could get it for $2 or even $3.

[56BISON73]

Why get off of oil???? There is NO SHORTAGE of it. The bottle neck is at the refineries as there hasnt been a new one built in the US in 20-30 years. PL

[met1990]

Why get off of oil???? There is NO SHORTAGE of it. The bottle neck is at the refineries as there hasnt been a new one built in the US in 20-30 years. PL

I agree. There is no shortage of oil. In fact, we'll never run out of it. But it won't be long before the easily accessible oil is gone and it costs more than $150 per barrel just to get it out of the ground.

Another interesting technology that's being studied (and probably has been for some time) is the ability to harness infrared energy. It's amazing what starts becoming quasi-feasible when crude oil costs more than $100 per barrel.

[mebisonII]

I hadn't heard of this, but a google search turns up a few references here and there. Sounds interesting, but there must be more details to be worked out as its pretty far under the radar yet.

BTW, I really have never bought the "car companies could make higher mileage cars, but oil companies keep them from coming out" line of argument. If Ford could release an F-150 tomorrow that was basically the same as the current pickup but got 60 mpg, they'd mop the floor with the competition and secure the company's future for the next decade at least, and probably two. Even as short-sighted as the Big Three seem to be at times, there's no way they take a payment from Big Oil to let that opportunity slip by.

Its basic engineering and economics that drives whats on the road. You can only squeeze so much energy out of a gallon of gas and you can only expect so much efficiency from metal parts rubbing together at 2,000 rpms. As for economics, people want horsepower, size, and safety. Companies have flat out said they could build an 80 mpg car, but it won't sell until consumers are willing to sacrifice one of those three.

So, to end my rant, I'm sure Big Oil has its hands plenty dirty playing in automobile politics, but I don't at all buy the idea that they are holding up some major blockbuster.

[bisonaudit]

Riots would ensue if a floor price scheme was enacted. No way people would be ok with paying $4 a gallon if they knew they could get it for $2 or even $3.

Where are you going to get it for $2 or $3? Canada? Mexico?

[GradBison]

Why get off of oil???? There is NO SHORTAGE of it. The bottle neck is at the refineries as there hasnt been a new one built in the US in 20-30 years. PL

What role does the lack of refineries play in crude jumping $140 a barrel?

[99Bison]

What really needs to happen is effiency... However it needs to work through politics to get there is what we really need. Whether that energy comes from oil, wind, rain, sleet, sunspots, snow, or your choice doesn't really matter.

Over time by making autos use 1-3% of the energy that they require now would make an infinate number of things extremely feasible.

[99Bison]

What role does the lack of refineries play in crude jumping $140 a barrel?

The speculators driving the price up because of their feelings about refineries and other such "feelings." Well how can speculators be allowed to happen you say?

Well... special interest efforts have managed to remove a ton of regulatory legistation of the past 20 years. So much so that other commodities like farming related items have much more regulation around them to prevent runaway greed and other rediculous shenanigans.

[56BISON73]

What role does the lack of refineries play in crude jumping $140 a barrel?

Its just one cog in the wheel.

Look at speculation on possibility of supply disruption, 20-30 bl (terrorist)
Supply disruption due to refinery mantanience
Weak dollar
Geopolitical situations-with speculation makes for increases
Greed and fear in the market place

38 different blends of gas in the US lends itself to higher gas prices

Fact is it takes about 20.00 to get a barrel out of the ground.

There are a host of other reasons that have added to the perfect storm as of late.
PL

[met1990]

Its just one cog in the wheel.

Look at speculation on possibility of supply disruption, 20-30 bl (terrorist)
Supply disruption due to refinery mantanience
Weak dollar
Geopolitical situations-with speculation makes for increases
Greed and fear in the market place

38 different blends of gas in the US lends itself to higher gas prices

Fact is it takes about 20.00 to get a barrel out of the ground.

There are a host of other reasons that have added to the perfect storm as of late.
PL

Don't forget the typical American that drives an SUV down to the grocery store for a gallon of milk. Increased demand has a huge role in it as has the lessening in demand in the recent price drop. No politician would ever say that, but it's the fact of the matter.

[NorthernBison]

Don't forget the typical American that drives an SUV down to the grocery store for a gallon of milk. Increased demand has a huge role in it as has the lessening in demand in the recent price drop. No politician would ever say that, but it's the fact of the matter.

Don't forget all those Chinese that used to pedal their bikes around or ride little scooters. A lot of them are now driving cars.

Demand on a worldwide basis is driving oil prices. Asia is a large part of this.

Another thing that doesn't get much press is the effect of the weak US Dollar. Oil prices are quoted in US dollars and that gets our attention because it impacts us directly. The effect is much less in countries where their currency has appreciated against the dollar. For example, there was a time when the Euro was close to the US dollar in value. Recently, I looked, and the Euro was worth $1.55 US. If you are getting paid in Euros, gas probably hasn't gone up much.

Look at Diesel prices. They are really high. I was told (I think by a reliable source) that lots of diesel fuel is being shipped to China. Why? They need it to keep their economy growing. Why should we care? China is probably the biggest investor in US Treasury obligations. We've been borrowing staggering sums of money from them to keep our economy going. The last thing we need is for them to stumble and need their money back. There are alot of financial balls being juggled right now and let's hope they don't get dropped.

[onbison09]

What really needs to happen is effiency... However it needs to work through politics to get there is what we really need. Whether that energy comes from oil, wind, rain, sleet, sunspots, snow, or your choice doesn't really matter.

Over time by making autos use 1-3% of the energy that they require now would make an infinate number of things extremely feasible.
Ding ding ding we have a winner.

[56BISON73]

Don't forget the typical American that drives an SUV down to the grocery store for a gallon of milk. Increased demand has a huge role in it as has the lessening in demand in the recent price drop. No politician would ever say that, but it's the fact of the matter.

You are SOOOoooo correct that consumption is a big factor. Especially in cooling the speculation market. We are seeingi t now with more reserves in inventory and the price dropping.

The prices as of late werent based on fundementals of supply and demand though. Fear and greed ran the market. PL

[56BISON73]

Don't forget all those Chinese that used to pedal their bikes around or ride little scooters. A lot of them are now driving cars.

Demand on a worldwide basis is driving oil prices. Asia is a large part of this.

Another thing that doesn't get much press is the effect of the weak US Dollar. Oil prices are quoted in US dollars and that gets our attention because it impacts us directly. The effect is much less in countries where their currency has appreciated against the dollar. For example, there was a time when the Euro was close to the US dollar in value. Recently, I looked, and the Euro was worth $1.55 US. If you are getting paid in Euros, gas probably hasn't gone up much.

Look at Diesel prices. They are really high. I was told (I think by a reliable source) that lots of diesel fuel is being shipped to China. Why? They need it to keep their economy growing. Why should we care? China is probably the biggest investor in US Treasury obligations. We've been borrowing staggering sums of money from them to keep our economy going. The last thing we need is for them to stumble and need their money back. There are alot of financial balls being juggled right now and let's hope they don't get dropped.


Its not that China is getting the diesel. The fact is more and more cars and trucks are running on the stuff than there were 5-10 years ago when it was cheap. PL

[56BISON73]

What role does the lack of refineries play in crude jumping $140 a barrel?

Here is a good example to answer your question. PL

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080730/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices;_ylt=Ak5XUWNH1IKBhPUosupushRv24cA

[NorthernBison]

Its not that China is getting the diesel. The fact is more and more cars and trucks are running on the stuff than there were 5-10 years ago when it was cheap. PL

I don't disagree with you there. Another factor is that a lot more grain is getting trucked now vs rail in the rural areas. The main point I was trying to make isn't that diesel prices are high simply due to the Chinese but more importantly, supply and price in this country could take a backseat to the needs of the Chinese economy simply because of the amount of our debt they hold. And it's getting worse every day.

Bottom line on oil is that prices are driven by demand that is growing at unprecedented levels. Call it speculation but, countries whose economies and their growth is tied directly to oil will pay whatever it takes and the market is very responsive to world events as a result. I have it on good authority that refining oil is not real profitable right now. The real money is in extracting oil. The refiners that have to buy their oil (Tesoro) are hurting. Proof of this is that there isn't a rush to bring more refining capacity online.

[56BISON73]

I don't disagree with you there. Another factor is that a lot more grain is getting trucked now vs rail in the rural areas. The main point I was trying to make isn't that diesel prices are high simply due to the Chinese but more importantly, supply and price in this country could take a backseat to the needs of the Chinese economy simply because of the amount of our debt they hold. And it's getting worse every day.

Bottom line on oil is that prices are driven by demand that is growing at unprecedented levels. Call it speculation but, countries whose economies and their growth is tied directly to oil will pay whatever it takes and the market is very responsive to world events as a result. I have it on good authority that refining oil is not real profitable right now. The real money is in extracting oil. The refiners that have to buy their oil (Tesoro) are hurting. Proof of this is that there isn't a rush to bring more refining capacity online.

Refining margins have always been extremely low. The majority of the people dont realize that for example XOM made 30 Billion dollars in one quarter last year. The people went crazy because they didnt KNOW where XOM really made it money. 2/3rd of the 30 Billion was made over seas as they are a multinational company. So now we are down to 10 billion. How much of that was made from the Wholesale price of refined gas??? 2-3 percent. AHhhhh that is now a horse of a different color is it not.
But you can chalk the knee jerk reaction of people to the fact it does effect there pocket book and the media isnt giving the people ALL the informastion they need to have an informed opinion.PL

[onbison09]

China also subsidizes its gas prices. They are incredibly cheap, which they need to be for their economy to keep growing. So unless they quit doing that it's not really going to matter.