Goodbye moral high horse

[Hammersmith]

(reposted because it deserves its own thread)

Well, our moral high horse just rode off into the sunset.

Obama skit prompts investigation at NDSU (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=196225&section=news)

A pageant contestant from Saddle and Sirloin dressed as the woman from the popular Internet video “I Got a Crush on Obama” and performed for another student who was wearing dark makeup and an afro wig.

In the background, two male students dressed as cowboys simulated anal sex while holding an Obama sign that one student ripped at the conclusion of the 30-second performance.

Quick notes: Alpha Gamma Delta(who ran the event) did not know what the skit was going to be because S&S did not attend the optional rehearsal. They're not happy.

The skit was booed by some, and the closest thing they're getting to support from anyone is, "It wasn’t malicious and it wasn’t racist in any way. They’re very apologetic and they realize the mistake that they made," from their advisor who also remarks the students involved are from rural North Dakota communities with little diversity and will possibly receive sensitivity training after this.

I bashed the leadership of UND's Gamma Phi Beta pretty hard over their party, and this stinks just as bad. I don't know which is worse, and it probably doesn't matter. The S&S skit is more offensive on its face, but at least it was jumped on by other groups and faculty immediately. I don't know exactly what will happen, but I'd love to see them get a Class A dressing down by Chapman in a closed room beyond the formal punishments. Perhaps we could bring in Bobby Knight as an adviser/instructor for our pres.

[Bison Dan]

(reposted because it deserves its own thread)

Well, our moral high horse just rode off into the sunset.

Obama skit prompts investigation at NDSU (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=196225&section=news)


Quick notes: Alpha Gamma Delta(who ran the event) did not know what the skit was going to be because S&S did not attend the optional rehearsal. They're not happy.

The skit was booed by some, and the closest thing they're getting to support from anyone is, "It wasn’t malicious and it wasn’t racist in any way. They’re very apologetic and they realize the mistake that they made," from their advisor who also remarks the students involved are from rural North Dakota communities with little diversity and will possibly receive sensitivity training after this.

I bashed the leadership of UND's Gamma Phi Beta pretty hard over their party, and this stinks just as bad. I don't know which is worse, and it probably doesn't matter. The S&S skit is more offensive on its face, but at least it was jumped on by other groups and faculty immediately. I don't know exactly what will happen, but I'd love to see them get a Class A dressing down by Chapman in a closed room beyond the formal punishments. Perhaps we could bring in Bobby Knight as an adviser/instructor for our pres.

What were they thinking - they should know you can only make fun of a white person!!!

[tony]

What were they thinking - they should know you can only make fun of a white person!!!

BAH! For all the stuff I hear about "PC crap", nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is more oversensitive than the people who start crying about the "PC Gestapo" when anybody points out patently bad behavior.

It just doesn't get much worse than the what the Saddle and Sirloin Club did. There is a decent chance that this could become a national news story as well as a black eye for NDSU and the entire state of North Dakota. What are we going to do then? Start mumbling about mean old Dave Chappelle? BTW, if you are truly offended by stuff like that, then you should speak up. What you shouldn't do is use it to justify things that aren't even remotely acceptable (like that skit).

Like I said in the other thread. The preppy "Indians" from UND should take their costume party to a school in Standing Rock and answer questions from the folks down there. Likewise, I'll donate $100 toward sending the Saddle and Sirloin Club team to NYC so they can put their show on at the Apollo.

If you can't tell a joke directly to the butt of the joke, then that's a good sign that you've crossed a line.

Arg... well, on the plus side, I think NDSU can still stay on the high horse because, unlike UND, they haven't made stuff like that skit a cornerstone of their very identity. :)

Edit: Did I just become offended because somebody was offended that other people were offended? Ohoh... my head is going to explode! And we don't have a smiley for that!!!

[markerman]

This is bad news. I just don't get how supposedly intelligent college students can think something like this is not a terrible idea (much less is funny).

As the Mr. and Miss NDSU contests are such great events for the campus, I hope that this doesn't jeopardize their status in the future.

What idiots...

[Herd80]

Part of the problem here is the crossing of multiple lines of decency. Combine profane acts of gender, racial and sexual nature in one pot and....eureka, a
sh-tstorm of major proportion. While a university can't control every act of it's students, the image problems now reside right here whether personal responsibility is the main issue or not. Their momma's are likely very disappointed today. And I agree....this one will be national before it's done.

[DORMIE]

By the way this comes from a city boy!!! It's really too bad that this would happen to members of the Saddle & Sirloin Club at NDSU. These are the men and ladies who run the very successful Little International. They're a bunch of rural kids that work their asses on their parents farms and ranches and then come to SU and work their asses off there also. Just some poor judgement in wanting to be funny at the moment. No intent on being racial, however that seem to be the way it came across.

[Bison Dan]

Has anyone posting here seen the skit? If not, how can anyone make a judgement on what happened? What part was offensive? A white person dressing up as Obama? If that was it, being Obama is half white is it only 1/2 offensive? Too many people are TOO easily offended today. If Obama is going to be our next president the PC crowd better grow a thicker skin because this will be nothing compared with what is going to come.

[TransAmBison]

Has anyone posting here seen the skit? If not, how can anyone make a judgement on what happened? What part was offensive? A white person dressing up as Obama? If that was it, being Obama is half white is it only 1/2 offensive? Too many people are TOO easily offended today. If Obama is going to be our next president the PC crowd better grow a thicker skin because this will be nothing compared with what is going to come.
It is hard to form a concret opinion by all the facts stated so far. From what is has been posted so far I have come to these conclusions:

1. It was not racist. A white person dressed up to look like a black person does not make it racist. Nuff said there.

2. The two cowboys in the background...completely out of line and had no business in the production. The smoking gun, in my opinion...no pun intended.

3. The girl giving the lapdance...saying it objectified women. Give me a break on the complaint. Look at an advertisements...objectifying women is the norm. Now, I do think it was inappropriate to show a lapdance for that crowd. I haven't seen it, but that is the opinion I have without seeing it.

4. The whole skit for this type of audience seems completely inappropriate. It has gone beyond "bad taste."

5. I don't like when the race card gets thrown so easily. Maybe there was something it the skit that warranted it, I don't know. It just bothers me that it is the first part of the article.

[mebisonII]

It is a bit of crow for everyone that was solemnly pointing out UNDs Indian party and saying that it proved systemic racism at UND. The two cases are about equal in my mind, with the NDSU one being a bit worse since it was at an official NDSU-sponsored public event.

I don't think in either case the people involved were probably necessarily trying to insult any race, but it was dumb and classless in both cases. People should know better.

[TransAmBison]

Just a question...is it wrong now for little kids to play "cowboys and indians"? I know I played it when I was a kid. Everybody did. Is that taboo now?

[SDbison]

Just a question...is it wrong now for little kids to play "cowboys and indians"? I know I played it when I was a kid. Everybody did. Is that taboo now?
Well, this is what happens in a society that is over sensitized about offending anyone, especially the "protected" groups. At the same time things 10 times worse can be portrayed as long as a white male is the subject matter. Since I gave more than a dollars worth of comments in similar threads this is my last 2 cents......

[aces1180]

Shit...This story is in the Strib now.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/17084126.html

[tony]

Well, this is what happens in a society that is over sensitized about offending anyone, especially the "protected" groups. At the same time things 10 times worse can be portrayed as long as a white male is the subject matter. Since I gave more than a dollars worth of comments in similar threads this is my last 2 cents......

So, for the record, you are fine with NDSU sponsoring events in which a white guy puts on black face?

[Bison Dan]

So, for the record, you are fine with NDSU sponsoring events in which a white guy puts on black face?

Would it be different to you if a black person put on a white face?

[TransAmBison]

So, for the record, you are fine with NDSU sponsoring events in which a white guy puts on black face?
If that is all they are doing, I am fine with it. What is wrong with that? Why can't you impersonate a person of another race?

[BisonBabe]

To me this is just another case of acting without thinking it through. It happens almost daily in the news. They may not have realized that they were crossing the line but they did.

I have a problem with how PC society has become. I am not one to take offense easily. But there is a time where you have to think to yourself would I want my parents/kids to see/here me act this way. If the answer is no then maybe you should reconsider your behavior.

[Bison_Pride]

Is there anybody here who is not white that thinks it was just fine?

[tony]

I can't believe you don't know this but white folks used to put on blackface and put on mocking shows posing as black people in establishments that would not allow black people to enter. It's not as if there is long historical precedence for black people donning white face and mocking white people in places that banned white people in a culture that first treated them as livestock and then as second-class citizens. Can you see why people who are aware of the historical context, regardless of their race, would be aghast at this skit (even without the lapdance and the simulated anal sex)?

Seriously, if I thought for one dang minute that North Dakota State University approved of this kind of crap, I would sever all ties to it, including closing down this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

[UTH]

Other people, institutions, etc., will very likely be teeing off on this story, and rightfully so. What's funnier and more appropriate to tease / make fun of?... Race, or Collossal Ignunce thereof? (cue Borat references...)

I'm thinking that the people who came up with the idea for this skit were probably trying to be on the 'cutting edge' or something. They just got taught a lesson in life. I hope they take it to heart.

I agree with SDBison that PC has been getting more out of control, but stuff like this goes over the top. I've enjoyed Tony's take on this and would like to match his $100 pledge to send these 'Bison Ambassadors' to the Apollo. It would be well worth it, but only if we get to keep the video copy of their performance.:D

I would argue that this matter differs from the issue up north because there is not a soul up there who doesn't know that parties / behavior like that is going to attract lots of unwanted attention, at the very least. If you are a student up there and wish to be immortalized on posters for years to come, allow a picture of you dressed up like that to get out. This isn't the first time. I remember a picture, taken years ago, of another partygoer dressed up, walking across the street. He literally became a poster boy for racist-mascot-haters for several years. I'm sure the poster is still pasted up somewhere on campus even today. The caption said something like, "See anything wrong with this picture?" There's no way that nobody in that whole sorority wasn't on notice.

[UTH]

Is there anybody here who is not white that thinks it was just fine?

Whoopi Goldberg... [linky (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n26_v84/ai_14488564)]

[Bison_Pride]

Nice reference, but different situations. What Ted Danson did was a to try to make a mockery of the people who called him a N***** lover, at the one event that he could get away with it, he did it to purposely draw peoples attention. I don't think the S&S club had any intentions of sending a racial message here, they were just naive students who didn't understand it's not okay to make fun of other people's race, or sexuality, especially at a campus sponsored event.

[Scooter1]

I can't believe you don't know this but white folks used to put on blackface and put on mocking shows posing as black people in establishments that would not allow black people to enter. It's not as if there is long historical precedence for black people donning white face and mocking white people in places that banned white people in a culture that first treated them as livestock and then as second-class citizens. Can you see why people who are aware of the historical context, regardless of their race, would be aghast at this skit (even without the lapdance and the simulated anal sex)?



Seriously, if I thought for one dang minute that North Dakota State University approved of this kind of crap, I would sever all ties to it, including closing down this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

Tony, you are 100% correct. Another thing that was only touched on was the fact that these people intentionally skipped the rehersal session because they KNEW that the people that were putting this function on would have said "Oh, hell no!!!" This shows a total lack of respect for the people sponsoring this event.

everyone is entitled to their own veiws but....sometimes...:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Shawn-O]

I don't think the S&S club* Gamma Phi Beta's had any intentions of sending a racial message here, they were just naive students who didn't understand it's not okay to make fun of other people's race, or sexuality, especially at a campus sponsored event.

How's that look? To suggest that the situations are different due to some additional "moral obligation" that comes with the Fighting Sioux name? I don't see it. These are 20 year old kids we're talking about here. I'm not condoning either situation. The UND nickname is going away soon, but theme parties such as these will not be going away with it...I guess that's my point.

*why the hell won't strikethrough work?

[90BISON]

People, do any of you happen to remember, I know may be a bit foggy, even some of the things you did or said while you were a college age student? Sometimes common sense and thinking the result of your actions to the end cosumer would be, probably didn't happen often. Not defending this skit in any way, especially in the current P/C climate to a very public audience. Still trying to figure out what that skit would have to do with the venue and audience they would have been performing it for?, maybe how to be edgey and offend as many groups as possible in the least amount of time.

I guess my overall point is that college age kids, even the really smart ones, do some really stupid things from time to time, especially if there is alcohol involved. I'm sure most of you could drudge up a dozen different stories about yourself or people you knew back then, that you would certainly not want your parents or especially your kids to ever know about, ever! It is ever so dangerous for the kids now with camera phones, digital cameras, myspace, facebook sites, etc, that could make their stupid actions even one time immortal.:smh:

[UTH]

Nice reference, but different situations. What Ted Danson did was a to try to make a mockery of the people who called him a N***** lover, at the one event that he could get away with it, he did it to purposely draw peoples attention. I don't think the S&S club had any intentions of sending a racial message here, they were just naive students who didn't understand it's not okay to make fun of other people's race, or sexuality, especially at a campus sponsored event.

You're preaching to the Pope here. I don't remember any of the details from Ted Danson's incident - I only remember the ensuing firestorm taking place. Thanks for the insight on that story. Where my post is concerned - I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

[Bison_Pride]

People, do any of you happen to remember, I know may be a bit foggy, even some of the things you did or said while you were a college age student? Sometimes common sense and thinking the result of your actions to the end cosumer would be, probably didn't happen often. Not defending this skit in any way, especially in the current P/C climate to a very public audience. Still trying to figure out what that skit would have to do with the venue and audience they would have been performing it for?, maybe how to be edgey and offend as many groups as possible in the least amount of time.

I guess my overall point is that college age kids, even the really smart ones, do some really stupid things from time to time, especially if there is alcohol involved. I'm sure most of you could drudge up a dozen different stories about yourself or people you knew back then, that you would certainly not want your parents or especially your kids to ever know about, ever! It is ever so dangerous for the kids now with camera phones, digital cameras, myspace, facebook sites, etc, that could make their stupid actions even one time immortal.:smh:

You are correct, they do stupid things. And they deserve all the crap that comes their way as a reminder for everyone to be more careful next time. That's a part of growing up and becoming wiser from experience.

(both in NDSU and in UND's cases)

[DORMIE]

The answer to this question still would not be an excuse for this type of behavior, but just what kind of an event was it? Was it a MR. NDSU not to be confused with a Missed Fargo Pagent that the Fargo Jaycees did years ago where guys performed as women. One of my friends was sponsored by Joe's Truckstop Bar & Grill. What were the nature of the other skits? Were they serious or joke related. Maybe the guys were trying to be funny in liu of the type of event they were in. Very unfortunate for a group that has done so much for our community and the University.

[TheBisonator]

The fact alone that 1) They did simulated anal sex acts in front of a crowd with some children in it and 2) Blackface (I don't care what you think, anything resembling a minstrel show is WRONG) made it wrong.

[CarringtonBison]

People, do any of you happen to remember, I know may be a bit foggy, even some of the things you did or said while you were a college age student? Sometimes common sense and thinking the result of your actions to the end cosumer would be, probably didn't happen often. Not defending this skit in any way, especially in the current P/C climate to a very public audience. Still trying to figure out what that skit would have to do with the venue and audience they would have been performing it for?, maybe how to be edgey and offend as many groups as possible in the least amount of time.

I guess my overall point is that college age kids, even the really smart ones, do some really stupid things from time to time, especially if there is alcohol involved. I'm sure most of you could drudge up a dozen different stories about yourself or people you knew back then, that you would certainly not want your parents or especially your kids to ever know about, ever! It is ever so dangerous for the kids now with camera phones, digital cameras, myspace, facebook sites, etc, that could make their stupid actions even one time immortal.:smh:
Agree 100%
This, my friends is why they make us wait until we are 35 years old to run for president!!

Not condoning the behavior or agreeing, just a comment on how college aged kids do not always think things through before their actions. That being said, actions have consequences and they will find out the hard way this lesson in life they will.

[bisonaudit]

FYI: the theme for the Mr. NDSU pagent 'Man v. Wild'

Also, it's Diversity Week on Campus.

And three, Mr. Obama is going to be in Grand Forks on Tuesday. We are totally screwed, this is going to be a national embarassment. :(

Actions have consequences and not just for those who performed them but those associated with them. I expect nothing less than swift and decisive action from the University in sanctioning these students and the organizations involved.

[tony]

FWIW, I never wanted those preppie idiots up at UND to be punished for dressing up like Indians and putting on warpaint. Same deal with the Saddle and Saddle folks - they were ignorant, but you know what? It seems like both groups gave out a big "Oh crap, I had no idea," and caught on pretty quickly that they had screwed up big time.

So, sure, I was terribly disappointed that one of the pillars of the NDSU community disgraced themselves in the way that they did, but I figured they'd learn a painful lesson from it. What is totally shocking me isn't so much the initial acts (college students can do some pretty stupid stuff after all - that's to be expected); it's the people who rush to defend what these kids did as if they are staking out the moral high ground or defending some fundamental democratic principle. Did they have the 20th century where they grew up?

I had kind of the same reaction to the controversy over Indian nicknames except in that case the problem wasn't nearly so blindingly obvious at first. However, the more arguments I heard in favor of the nickame, the more I saw the ignorance and hostility lurking behind them.

[Civil06]

Shit...This story is in the Strib now.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/17084126.html

This is not only regional or national news.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7419585
http://www.newsweek.com/id/129414
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/28/nd-university-investigates-raunchy-skit-where-white-student-played-obama-in-blackface/

etc, etc, etc..... I found 60 links to this story. Every major paper is running it. Hopefully Chapman comments soon. This might be far from over...

[bisonaudit]

Boston Herald has it too.

They've got to act fast to condemn and sanction what happened, with Mr. Obama up the road at the state DFL convention next week this is not going away and it will stay national.

[bisonaudit]

NY Times and the Washington Post.

Kolpak is going to be famous.

[tony]

This is not only regional or national news.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7419585
http://www.newsweek.com/id/129414
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/28/nd-university-investigates-raunchy-skit-where-white-student-played-obama-in-blackface/

etc, etc, etc..... I found 60 links to this story. Every major paper is running it. Hopefully Chapman comments soon. This might be far from over...

Yeah, if there's video of this (and there probably is), I'm pretty sure that major news networks will be lining up to air it. Greeeat. Reporters will be in the area for the Obama deal and I'm sure they'll be looking for people to give answers that will confirm the rest of the nation's (and maybe the world's) view of North Dakota as an ignorant and racist backwater.

That said, even though this is a phenomenal embarrassment to NDSU and North Dakota, I don't think it would be fair to make the official consequences to the students involved any harsher than they would otherwise be. Maybe next time people see something like this, they'll speak up right away.

[Bison_Pride]

I'd look for NDSU and Chapman to put a major foot up someones behind on this one. The way to handle it is by overreacting. Public apologies, major sanctions, a commitment to even more cultural awareness. You have to make the campus reaction as much a part of the story as everything else.

[bisonaudit]

Apparently there is video. Someone here or on the STrib message board (don't remember where I saw the post) has seen it.

[bisonaudit]

Where's the Spectrum on this? I didn't see anything on their web site. I'm sure they had someone covering the event.

How can the Campus newspaper get scooped by CNN?

[Bison bison]

I think they should put AGD and Saddle & Sirloin on suspension for the rest of the year. No formal meetings/events on campus for the next six weeks. Remove their execs from power.

No twenty year old should be stupid enough to put on black face or to simulate anal sex.

I can't believe that the skits weren't vetted prior the event.

[runtheoption]

If the punishments get really harsh on the S&S'ers, do you think they may try a 1st Amendment arguement? It would make for some interesting arguements in court if it was to get that far. From what I've heard of the skit, it sounds like an attempt at political humor while making a pretty strong political statement. More like something one would see on Saturday Night Live, Mad TV or the Jon Stewart Show.

I think it is a very offensive skit, but yet I am torn as I am a strong advocate of 1st Amendment freedoms for political statements. This whole thing doesn't seem too far removed from those preacher types that used to come and speak in the sunken area just east of the Union. Those guys would get people pretty riled up with the offensive things they would say about "fags", but NDSU let things go.

(Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.)

[Bison bison]

not a constitutional lawyer, but i don't think they'd get to far posing as first amendment crusaders.

you'd have a better chance convicting them of obscenity-which isn't protected

[bisonaudit]

Not a constitutional scholar either but I don't think there's a free speech arguement here either. They're not being sanctioned by the government for what they said. NDSU gives them money to operate their club and NDSU stands to have its reputation damaged by being associated with these sorts of statements. They've got a perfect right to sanction them.

If I were the Student Body President I think that I'd be calling an emergency session of the Student Senate regardless of what the administration is or isn't planning to do. The Student Senate clearly has grounds to act as S/S receives student fee monies.

Regarding, SNL, Mad TV, Chappelle, Daily Show, Colbert Report, Late Night Talk or on the flip side Mike Richards, Dice Clay, Sinead O'Connor
Smart and Funny = Art
Dumb and Not = Offensive

[runtheoption]

I may have to dust off some law books that I haven't used for a few years and get back to you guys...

Dealing with collections matters and now IP law has made me little rusty in this area.

[runtheoption]

Not a constitutional scholar either but I don't think there's a free speech arguement here either. They're not being sanctioned by the government for what they said. NDSU gives them money to operate their club and NDSU stands to have its reputation damaged by being associated with these sorts of statements. They've got a perfect right to sanction them.

If I were the Student Body President I think that I'd be calling an emergency session of the Student Senate regardless of what the administration is or isn't planning to do. The Student Senate clearly has grounds to act as S/S receives student fee monies.

They may be sanctioned by the government (NDSU).

[Bison bison]

NDSU could choose not to recognize either organization, effectively killing them.

A little light reading:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/memorial_union/thundarbolts/Student%20Organization%20Policies%20and%20Forms.ph p

[Bison bison]

now on the Newsweek Homepage!

[Bison_Pride]

I guarantee at least 5 million hits on youtube when it surfaces.

[90BISON]

FYI: the theme for the Mr. NDSU pagent 'Man v. Wild'

Also, it's Diversity Week on Campus.

And three, Mr. Obama is going to be in Grand Forks on Tuesday. We are totally screwed, this is going to be a national embarassment. :(

Actions have consequences and not just for those who performed them but those associated with them. I expect nothing less than swift and decisive action from the University in sanctioning these students and the organizations involved.

Ah, the timing could not have been better. Sounds like they pretty much covered all the bases.:(

[90BISON]

NDSU could choose not to recognize either organization, effectively killing them.

A little light reading:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/memorial_union/thundarbolts/Student%20Organization%20Policies%20and%20Forms.ph p

If they chose to do that, it would be wrong on so many levels. You don't destroy a whole organization just to be PC and to CYA. To me that would be like banning the entire student body from attending football games because 6 underage students showed up to the game drunk and flipped off the refs. Now whether you want to kick the responsible parties out of those organizations, that is a completely different matter. Part of the consequence of being an idiot to try and get a rise out of people. Mission accomplished.:banghead:

[runtheoption]

If they chose to do that, it would be wrong on so many levels. You don't destroy a whole organization just to be PC and to CYA. To me that would be like banning the entire student body from attending football games because 6 underage students showed up to the game drunk and flipped off the refs. Now whether you want to kick the responsible parties out of those organizations, that is a completely different matter. Part of the consequence of being an idiot to try and get a rise out of people. Mission accomplished.:banghead:

This is kinda what I was getting at in my earlier post. If the punishment was really severe, either on the organization or on certain individuals, I could see some over-zealous type wanting to take on NDSU in court.

[bisonaudit]

This is kinda what I was getting at in my earlier post. If the punishment was really severe, either on the organization or on certain individuals, I could see some over-zealous type wanting to take on NDSU in court.

Fine. Let them. This is about today and what S/S and NDSU need to do to salvage their reputation. If someone wants to file a suit go right ahead we can deal with that after press horde have moved onto their next meal. I'm pretty confident that NDSU would win and if not they could just ask the state legislature for immunity. :)

[runtheoption]

not a constitutional lawyer, but i don't think they'd get to far posing as first amendment crusaders.

you'd have a better chance convicting them of obscenity-which isn't protected

That could be tough.

Something is obscene if it would be found appealing to the prurient interest by an average person applying contemporary community standards, depicts sexual conduct in a patently offensive way and has no serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15 (1973).

‘Prurient interest’ is a shameful and morbid interest in nudity, sex or excretion. Cusack v. Teitel Film Corp., 230 N.E.2d 241, 250 (1967).

[runtheoption]

Again, not really defending these guys, just makes for what I think is an interesting topic. 1st Amendment stuff is always fun :-)

[Tatanka]

:smh: I'm interested to see exactly how this gets handled. So far, President Chapman being half a Kupchella (unavailable for comment, presumably in town) not terribly impressive... Should be interesting to hear Prakash Mathew's take on the situation.

Very embarrassing overall. Wonder what kind of impact this will have on potential students and recruiting. :smh:

[Shawn-O]

Just a question...is it wrong now for little kids to play "cowboys and indians"? I know I played it when I was a kid. Everybody did. Is that taboo now?

Yes. But the good news is that EA Sports is working on the video version, which should be available for XBox and PS3 soon.

[westriver bison]

Not a constitutional scholar either but I don't think there's a free speech arguement here either. They're not being sanctioned by the government for what they said. NDSU gives them money to operate their club and NDSU stands to have its reputation damaged by being associated with these sorts of statements. They've got a perfect right to sanction them.

If I were the Student Body President I think that I'd be calling an emergency session of the Student Senate regardless of what the administration is or isn't planning to do. The Student Senate clearly has grounds to act as S/S receives student fee monies.

Regarding, SNL, Mad TV, Chappelle, Daily Show, Colbert Report, Late Night Talk or on the flip side Mike Richards, Dice Clay, Sinead O'Connor
Smart and Funny = Art
Dumb and Not = Offensive


Saddle and Sirloin recieves no money from NDSU. Other than the use of NDSU facilities they are pretty independent. I was president of S/S while at NDSU. These kids did a dumb thing and should suffer the repercussions. Probably the club also, but not lose recognition by the university. Diversity training? Definitely

[Hammersmith]

Since I started the thread, I guess I should post at least one long-winded response.

Short version of the situation: it's bad. What's one of the most popular searches at the moment? Obama. Guess what comes up if you search for news articles about Obama in the last two days? As of right now, it's the 8th listed story on Google News(search: "Obama"). As audit said, with Obama coming to GF next week, the timing is about as bad as it gets. I'm really afraid a major newsservice is going to pick up on the story and go beyond the original Dalrymple AP writeup. If that happens, it's going to get legs.

So what do we(NDSU) do? Well, I'd hate to see S/S cease to exist. They do do a lot of good activities for the university, charities and children. Shutting them down would be like cutting off our nose to spite our face. Still, they made a terrible decision and must pay the piper. First, a minimum of two years probation with significant oversight is in order. Most, if not all, of the student leadership should be removed. Depending on more personal knowledge of the situation, the players of the skit(and anyone who helped) should possibly be kicked out of S/S, or, if they're truly repentant, be left in, but kept on a very short leash. Student Government should put an emergency hold on their funding and keep very close tabs on them. A 10% reduction in fuding for the next two years wouldn't be a bad idea either.* Also, the faculty advisors shouldn't get off scot free. Firing them isn't warranted, but a letter of reprimand in their files will hurt them when it comes time to hand out raises.

As for AGD, I don't hold them nearly as responsible. They should've done a better job vetting the acts, but that's not anywhere near what S/S did. One year of probation and some sanctions from the Pan-Hellenic Council should be enough, as long as they tighten up the vetting procedures for future Mr. NDSU pagents. An extra charity event for the next year or two wouldn't hurt either. The PHC should also push for better control of all events run by greek houses.

From a university perspective, Chapman needs to issue at least one more strongly-worded response, and he should do everything within his power to arrange a meeting with Obama while he's in the area next week. We could actually turn this to our advantage if the S/S members involved(and even the AGD & SG leadership) would travel to GF to make a private, and then public, apology to Obama at the dem convention. If done right, it could turn a media disaster into a coup. Not much time to get it done, though.

The only good thing I've seen about this mess so far is that almost everyone at NDSU recognized how bad this skit was immediately, and there doesn't seem to be a cover-up or "it's not so bad" type of thing happening. Small comfort.

*I wrote this before I read westriver's post. If funding can't be used as a whip, maybe require more charity or community service events along with diversity training.

[bisonaudit]

10 pm Eastern. 4th story on my CNN homepage. At least one member of the press corps has questioned the Obama campaign regarding the incident. 'no comment' at this point. Haven't seen anything of substance from NDSU yet either.

[NDSU1980]

This is a university issue, not a sports issue. The situation at UND is different since they are using the mascot for athletics. I honestly thing they are unrelated and let's let the administration handle it here. Not our problem.

[bisonaudit]

Fresh ink from the STrib. Nothing earth shattering but new quotes from Chapman and Student Body President among others.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/17117086.html

They've got their own writer assigned to it now.

[Stromer]

As a UND student, I am glad to see people on here condemning the recent events at both schools. I am pretty anti-PC, but both of these events showed errors in judgement. No harm was intended to come from these events but that is no excuse to throw common sense out the window. IMO, the incident at NDSU is probably bigger because it is gathering national attention. That being said, the ignorance of these students at UND is amazing. The lack of common sense in thinking that dressing up as native americans is acceptable on a campus refuting claims of racism while trying to build relationships with the tribes is laughable. Hopefully both schools will be able to put these incidents behind them without getting too much egg on their faces.

[TheBisonator]

Both the events at NDSU and UND show me that the state of North Dakota still have a long ways to go to reach the 21st Century in cultural/social thought. I hope that the ever decreasing white homogenization of this state (i.e. fastest percentage growth of Black/African Americans in the US) will do a lot to help correct this.

[NDSUstudent]

I got this in an email a few hours ago....

North Dakota State University President Joseph A. Chapman has issued
this statement regarding the recent Mr. NDSU competition and the
controversy over one of the skits during that event:


“I am deeply disappointed that this incident took place at NDSU. The
students’ actions were entirely unacceptable and will not be
tolerated as the Office of the Dean of Student Life moves forward with a full
investigation. Our campus town hall meeting following the incident was
a first step.

I’m asking the NDSU President’s Diversity Council and the Anti-Racism
Team to continue to work with our campus community to ensure that
incidents of these kinds do not occur. The students involved have
accepted responsibility for their actions and expressed deep remorse.
The students and the department involved are working with the Office of
Equity and Diversity to develop an educational process.

While the actions of the students are regrettable and disturbing, the
incident offers an opportunity to take the campus community more deeply
into an understanding of the harmful nature of prejudice. NDSU is committed
to fostering a climate of acceptance and inclusiveness. The transformation of
an institution, like a society, requires learning from its mistakes and building on
those experiences.

NDSU does not and will not ignore acts of intolerance at our
institution or in our community.”

[DIBISON]

NDSU has addressed their issue as discussed by President Chapman and it will be laid to rest. The situation up north at UND is totally different because of the logo and nickname issue.

[Hammersmith]

The Forum's link to Chapman's statement is broken, but here are the apologies from S/S and AGD(pdf's):

Saddle Sirloin Club Apology (http://www.in-forum.com/pdfs/Saddle%20Sirloin%20Club%20Apology.pdf)

Members of the NDSU Saddle and Sirloin Club recently participated in a skit for the Mr. NDSU competition which was an attempt to re-enact the popular YouTube video “I have a Crush on Obama”. Many of those in attendance were offended and those who participated, and the club as a whole, wish to express our sincere apologies to all who witnessed the skit, to NDSU and to the community.

We would also like to extend an apology to the NDSU Alpha Gamma Delta sorority, the host of Mr. NDSU, as they had no prior knowledge of the actions that took place.

There was no malicious intent on the part of those who were in the skit. Senator Obama is an honorable public servant and we also apologize to him. Again, the Saddle and Sirloin Club is regretful for the performance that our Mr. NDSU candidate displayed and we are truly sorry for the hurt and embarrassment this has caused.

Sincerely,
Jenna Schmidt
NDSU Saddle and Sirloin Club President

Alpha Gamma Delta Apology (http://www.in-forum.com/pdfs/Sorority%20Apology.pdf)

On behalf of the women of Alpha Gamma Delta, I would like to express our extreme disappointment in the nature of the lip-synch that occurred at the Mr. NDSU event on March 18th, 2008. The act was not only offensive and distasteful, but it did not represent the standards upon which our sorority was built. The goal of Mr. NDSU is to provide a campu-wide philanthropic event that showcases the outstanding men we have in our college community. We also strive to display the wide range of diversity found at NDSU.

Our chapter did inform each contestant on three seperate occasions that the content for each pertion of the Mr. NDSU competition needed to be kept to an appropriate level. However, due to the nature of the lip-synch in last week's event, we are working to develop a more strict screening process for the event. It is extremely unfortunate that an act of this distasteful nature was presented at an event that should be a celebration of the diversity at NDSU.

Sincerely,
Erin Saville
Alpha Gamma Delta - Beta Beta Chapter President

[Shawn-O]

NDSU has addressed their issue as discussed by President Chapman and it will be laid to rest. The situation up north at UND is totally different because of the logo and nickname issue.

Absurd, but go ahead and keep tellling yourselves that. Actually, the kids down south even through a homophobic twist into it, so I'd say that makes it worse.

[bisonmike2]

While this is a bit of a black eye (no pun intended) for NDSU we have a long way to go before we reach UND's status of insensitivity. First we need a rich racist alum to build us a new arena and put thousands of logo's of white kids w/black faces all over it, spell out "go whitey" in the shrubs by this new arena to be seen from above. Then this racist alumni needs to intimidate Joe Chapman by threating to halt construction of this new arena if his demands aren't met. I could go on but I'm lazy this morning. You get the point. This S&S skit is not on the same level as what's going on at UND. This was a skit performed at and NDSU event, the content of which was unknown to many. UND uses, what some refer to as, a racist athletic mascot w/out the full blessing of the native american people they are claiming to honor. They repeatedly defend this by parading around their statistics on native americans attending the university and the education courses they offer to support diversity. These situations are not comparable.

[Hambone]

It's amazing that now that the Bison faithful has had a day to think, some are starting the process of justifying how this isn't even close to how bad it is at UND. Were some of you sitting around all day yesterday thinking of how you could justify it? UND is in a fight with the NCAA and local tribes, which to be honest most people around the country who don't follow college athletics know nothing about. But NDSU (at a school sponsored event nontheless) has this skit going on about a man WHO COULD BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT, which has gone global, and UND's situation is much worse? Some of you are unbelievable. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Plus, NDSU's actions make the whole state look bad, whereas UND's actions only affect UND IMO. Both groups of students should be ashamed of themselves, but the NDSU situation is worse.

As Shawn-O said, keep telling yourselves that it's not as bad.

[Gully]

Fresh ink from the STrib. Nothing earth shattering but new quotes from Chapman and Student Body President among others.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/17117086.html

They've got their own writer assigned to it now.

bisonaudit....you seem almost thrilled you're finding this covered in so many news outlets. I think some of you are overreacting a bit. Most reasonable people can shake there heads at the dumb actions of a few without condeming a whole university or state as someone mentioned. It will be ok. The sun will come up tomorrow....I promise. Let's move on.

[02Bison]

It's amazing that now that the Bison faithful has had a day to think, some are starting the process of justifying how this isn't even close to how bad it is at UND. Were some of you sitting around all day yesterday thinking of how you could justify it? UND is in a fight with the NCAA and local tribes, which to be honest most people around the country who don't follow college athletics know nothing about. But NDSU (at a school sponsored event nontheless) has this skit going on about a man WHO COULD BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT, which has gone global, and UND's situation is much worse? Some of you are unbelievable. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Plus, NDSU's actions make the whole state look bad, whereas UND's actions only affect UND IMO. Both groups of students should be ashamed of themselves, but the NDSU situation is worse.

As Shawn-O said, keep telling yourselves that it's not as bad.

++++++++++++

UND has no relevance to this and its sad that those still harboring irrational hatred toward UND are trying to minimize what happened at NDSU by pointing to the mascot/logo debacle at UND. After all, a lot of the most tasteless defacing of the UND logo and whatnot has been done by people with allegiance to NDSU in their blood (don't think the problem the Sioux have with UND is totally with just UND...its with all who choose deface what the logo represents..it resresents more than just UND.)

As for content of the skit, all I can say is wtf where they thinking? Its sad that we have people who can think of such things walking around on NDSU's campus every day, let alone choosing to mockingly act out those thoughts on stage in a public performance. WTF is wrong with them? S&S should be ashamed of themselves. I don't care if it was a joke...there are some things you don't joke about and this is one of those things. Tasteless and classless.

[onbison09]

Both the events at NDSU and UND show me that the state of North Dakota still have a long ways to go to reach the 21st Century in cultural/social thought. I hope that the ever decreasing white homogenization of this state (i.e. fastest percentage growth of Black/African Americans in the US) will do a lot to help correct this.
I used to live in Rugby, we had three black kids in our school. Now I live in Plano, TX where we have hundreds in our school not to mention daily life. I'll admit it was a new experience for me being around black people. (not that I was racist in ND) My uncle will occassionaly say "black jokes" and while he is laughing after delivering the punch line I just have my mouth open in amazement that people can have attitudes like that in the 21st century. Regardless about how anti-PC you are "blackfacing" is something you just don't do. It's racist and wrong. I gotta call BS on people who say it's not racist but that's just my opinion. I would like to think those kids aren't racist and just made a bad decision. The timing has been talked about before and it couldn't have been worse. Seriously WTF were they thinking??? Were they trying to be funny? I don't think I'll be wearing any NDSU stuff to school this week:blush: . I'm not saying it was the university's fault or anything like that but I think Chappy really needs to bring the hammer down.

[bisonaudit]

bisonaudit....you seem almost thrilled you're finding this covered in so many news outlets. I think some of you are overreacting a bit. Most reasonable people can shake there heads at the dumb actions of a few without condeming a whole university or state as someone mentioned. It will be ok. The sun will come up tomorrow....I promise. Let's move on.

Where have you been. I'm not thrilled about any of this. It's disgusting and embarrassing and it's a disgrace to the University and everyone associated with it. And guess what else... It's a national story. That's reality.

While I'm at it, it's also pretty disgusting that some fell the need to play the 'well at least we're not as bad as UND card' Give me a break. That doesn't have anything to do with anything. Let's stay focused on our own problems.

I thought Chapman's statement was a good start and in keeping with the themes of Mr. Obama's speach of a couple weeks ago. We need to deal frankly with reality and we can't pretend it didn't happen. Sanctions are warranted, probably harsh ones, but there's also a chance to make an incremental step toward a better society here.

[Gully]

Where have you been. I'm not thrilled about any of this. It's disgusting and embarrassing and it's a disgrace to the University and everyone associated with it. And guess what else... It's a national story. That's reality.

While I'm at it, it's also pretty disgusting that some fell the need to play the 'well at least we're not as bad as UND card' Give me a break. That doesn't have anything to do with anything. Let's stay focused on our own problems.

I thought Chapman's statement was a good start and in keeping with the themes of Mr. Obama's speach of a couple weeks ago. We need to deal frankly with reality and we can't pretend it didn't happen. Sanctions are warranted, probably harsh ones, but there's also a chance to make an incremental step toward a better society here.

I've been right here, reading every post where you point out where you've found the story lately. It happened, it was news, it was reported, it's now over.

[bisonaudit]

[QUOTE=bisonaudit;185258] We are totally screwed, this is going to be a national embarassment. :(

QUOTE]

Guess you must have missed this from my first post on this thread.

If you think this is over you've got your head burried in the sand*.

There's video, almost no one has seen it (I haven't seen it), but there is video, Bisonator has seen it. Mr. Obama is coming to the state on Tuesday. This is not over. Saying so or wishing so isn't going to make it so.

[onbison09]

[quote=bisonaudit;185258] We are totally screwed, this is going to be a national embarassment. :(

QUOTE]

Guess you must have missed this from my first post on this thread.

If you think this is over you've got your head burried somewhere.

There's video, almost no one has seen it (I haven't seen it), but there is video, Bisonator has seen it. Mr. Obama is coming to the state on Tuesday. This is not over. Saying so or wishing so isn't going to make it so.
Please tell me it's not on Youtube.

[westriver bison]

[QUOTE=bisonaudit;185258] We are totally screwed, this is going to be a national embarassment. :(

QUOTE]

Guess you must have missed this from my first post on this thread.

If you think this is over you've got your head burried somewhere.

There's video, almost no one has seen it (I haven't seen it), but there is video, Bisonator has seen it. Mr. Obama is coming to the state on Tuesday. This is not over. Saying so or wishing so isn't going to make it so.

So you agree most of the "outrage" is political?

There must only be one copy of the tape or it would be on utube already. If it ends up there it is an inside job and that to me will be as big an issue as the skit itself.

[bisonaudit]

[QUOTE=bisonaudit;185513]

So you agree most of the "outrage" is political?

There must only be one copy of the tape or it would be on utube already. If it ends up there it is an inside job and that to me will be as big an issue as the skit itself.

No, it's racist, sexist, homophobic idiocy, it's not politics. You've got a local issue no matter what. It's going national because of timing, but that doesn't excuse the behavior it just makes the problem more acute for the people and organizations involved, which is to say all of us, to a greater or lesser degree.

There are going to be a hundred national press people in Grand Forks on Tuesday and most of them have to file a story every day no matter what. This is the most interesting and compelling thing with in 100 miles and a month that has Obama's name on it so it's going to be a story. It's not politics, it's reality. Obama's people aren't going to be playing it up, it doesn't help them.

An 'inside job' what's that suposed to mean? Who on the 'inside' at NDSU, S/S, or the soriority stands to gain from posting that? Is the implication suposed to be that if they did that somehow they'd be selling out the University or their house or their club? This happened and the presence or absence of a tape won't undue it. It may be a bigger or smaller story but it can't change the reality of it occuring. If we're talking about who's selling out who here I think the finger gets pointed straight into the chest of the skit masterminds. They, not the owners of any tape, are the ones who've sold the University community out.

If it's political at all it's the fools responsible for the skit who made it so. If they were intent on acting like bigots while implicating the rest of us in their 'fun' they could have picked on Al Sharpton instead.

Lets stop trying to excuse and explain this kind of garbage away and start owning up to the fact that we've got an issue we need to grapple with, at NDSU, in North Dakota, and across the country.

[westriver bison]

The skit with the dark makeup and portrayed gay sex definitely was in bad taste and should not have been performed as it put NDSU in a bad light. All posters have agreed with that. The students who performed the skit agree as evidenced by Chapman's comments. However it is not the end of the world, much worse things could have happened.

I did not see the skit but what I have read about it it certainly was political and imo was designed to be that. The Obama sign made it quite clear. IMO, again from what I have read, it was not racist. I agree with your comment about Sharpton, that would have made it racist. Others see it as racist, that is their perogitive.

I agree no one gains from posting the skit on utube except someone who wants to paint NDSU, North Dakota or S/S in a bad light. I don't keep an eye on the sky for the black helicoptors but I do think there are people who have agendas out there.

[bisonaudit]

It was absolutely racist and the 'outrage', personally, and I think for most everyone, is not politically motivated. It's motivated by a desire to get as far away from this sort of bigioted behavior as possible and by the slim hope that calling someone else on their 'S' may have a positive influence on their decisions and those of others going forward.

Just because there was a political component to the skit doesn't automatically make any negative reaction to it politically motivated. The only people playing politics here are the offenders not the offended.

[lakesbison]

obama in north dakota on tuesday?

like any democrat is gonna win this state.... yea RIIIIGHT!!


I see worse crap then this at any neighborhood bar stool, so if all the PC people wanna start hitting all those, have at it!

[bisonaudit]

I see worse crap then this at any neighborhood bar stool, so if all the PC people wanna start hitting all those, have at it!


Not that it's an excuse, but it's called knowing your audience.

If you want act like a bigoted fool, be my guest. But if you're going to do it where the whole world can see you (like a campus auditorium, or here) you've got to expect consequences.

[TransAmBison]

Not that it's an excuse, but it's called knowing your audience.

If you want act like a bigoted fool, be my guest. But if you're going to do it where the whole world can see you (like a campus auditorium, or here) you've got to expect consequences.
Fools yes, un-informed yes. Bigots no. Get real. They did not do it with the intent to be racist. Do I know this for a fact? No. Just using common sense. Could it be taken as racist, sure. Tony has made some good points about things I did not know before. I can see how it could be taken wrong, but I would be inclined to believe the kids were just not informed as to what they were doing with the black-face thing. The obviously exercised poor judgement on the whole thing, but I don't see evidence that they were intentionally racist.

[tony]

Fools yes, un-informed yes. Bigots no.

FWIW, I agree.

[Ferd]

Both the events at NDSU and UND show me that the state of North Dakota still have a long ways to go to reach the 21st Century in cultural/social thought. I hope that the ever decreasing white homogenization of this state (i.e. fastest percentage growth of Black/African Americans in the US) will do a lot to help correct this.

I hate to see the whole State of North Dakota, or any state for that matter, being painted with such a broad brush.

I would not like to have my character perceived to be the same as several people on even THIS board have indicated by their postings.

Now that I think of it, Maybe "guilt by association" is an example of underlying prejudice?

Just a thought...

[90BISON]

Both the events at NDSU and UND show me that the state of North Dakota still have a long ways to go to reach the 21st Century in cultural/social thought. I hope that the ever decreasing white homogenization of this state (i.e. fastest percentage growth of Black/African Americans in the US) will do a lot to help correct this.

Seriously??? Now for arguments sake, what if those students happened to be from the Twin Cities or some other larger metro area that has a more diverse race mix. Kinda changes the whole argument doesn't it? Individual people make their own decisions, and are responsible for their own actions, period. Or at least in theory they should be. Stupid people come in all shapes, denominations, colors and geographic areas.

[Bison"FANatic"]

If done right and handled correctly by the college this can be a very good learning opportunity for the whole college. I just caught a snipit about some talk or something of the like scheduled at the fieldhouse. I didn't here what it was all about but sounded like some students and faculty were going to be speaking at it. I am sure someone closer to the college can elaborate.

Hopefully they can take a negative turn it into a positive learning experience and we move on with a more racially aware student body.

[onbison09]

Seriously??? Now for arguments sake, what if those students happened to be from the Twin Cities or some other larger metro area that has a more diverse race mix. Kinda changes the whole argument doesn't it? Individual people make their own decisions, and are responsible for their own actions, period. Or at least in theory they should be. Stupid people come in all shapes, denominations, colors and geographic areas.
AMEN. I think the best thing to do now is just move on.

[onbison09]

obama in north dakota on tuesday?

like any democrat is gonna win this state.... yea RIIIIGHT!!


I see worse crap then this at any neighborhood bar stool, so if all the PC people wanna start hitting all those, have at it!

One poll a few weeks ago had him above McCain in ND. Can't find the article on in-forum but got it in an e-mail. Not trying to stir anything up but just saying it's possible but highly unlikely.

[G-city Bison Fan]

Fools yes, un-informed yes. Bigots no. Get real. They did not do it with the intent to be racist. Do I know this for a fact? No. Just using common sense. Could it be taken as racist, sure. Tony has made some good points about things I did not know before. I can see how it could be taken wrong, but I would be inclined to believe the kids were just not informed as to what they were doing with the black-face thing. The obviously exercised poor judgement on the whole thing, but I don't see evidence that they were intentionally racist.

I don't know how old these kids were, but assuming they were 18 and above how on earth can you argue they didn't intend to be racist? You can argue all you want about them not knowing better, but I don't buy it for a second, and if that in fact is the case, that they didn't know any better they have no business being at NDSU because they probably aren't intelligent enough to feed themselves. Not being racist is an active process, telling racist jokes, but "not really meaning it" doesn't cut it.

[westriver bison]

I don't know how old these kids were, but assuming they were 18 and above how on earth can you argue they didn't intend to be racist? You can argue all you want about them not knowing better, but I don't buy it for a second, and if that in fact is the case, that they didn't know any better they have no business being at NDSU because they probably aren't intelligent enough to feed themselves. Not being racist is an active process, telling racist jokes, but "not really meaning it" doesn't cut it.

They intended to dis Obama, a public figure who happens to be african american. That is not racist, it is political. IMO they knew what they were doing and what message they wanted to get across. It had nothing to do with Obama's race and everything to do with his politics.

[TransAmBison]

They intended to dis Obama, a public figure who happens to be african american. That is not racist, it is political. IMO they knew what they were doing and what message they wanted to get across. It had nothing to do with Obama's race and everything to do with his politics.
Exactly. G-City...you obviously feel strongly about this. What do you think they did with the intention of being racist? Besides wearing the black-face (which I admit I knew nothing about being a racist thing from way back)

[bisonaudit]

They intended to dis Obama, a public figure who happens to be african american. That is not racist, it is political. IMO they knew what they were doing and what message they wanted to get across. It had nothing to do with Obama's race and everything to do with his politics.

Yeah, becuase when we oppose someone's politics in this country we express that by mocking their race, simulating an inter-racial 'encounter' and sodomy. Makes me want to run right out and vote Republican.

[Bison Dan]

Yeah, becuase when we oppose someone's politics in this country we express that by mocking their race, simulating an inter-racial 'encounter' and sodomy. Makes me want to run right out and vote Republican.

They were mocking Obama because the youtube chick. The sex thing (sodomy) was never intended just someones opinion. It's strange that some people alway assume the worst in people. If this would have been President Bush I bet your outrage would be zero. (mocking his race - inter-racial encounter and sodomy).

[bisonaudit]

They were mocking Obama because the youtube chick. The sex thing (sodomy) was never intended just someones opinion. It's strange that some people alway assume the worst in people. If this would have been President Bush I bet your outrage would be zero. (mocking his race - inter-racial encounter and sodomy).

If you want continue insisting that this is purely political all I'll say is you're going to end up creating a lot of fiscally conservative, war hawk democrats who aren't interested in being the the 'big tent' with racists and homophobes. You might want to rethink that approach. The party of Lincoln is not the party of hate.

[Hammersmith]

I've thrown out some really, really long posts on this thread and another, so I'll try to keep this one in check. I think the S/S students were trying to make a smoke bomb, and ending up making a high explosive. They grabbed some household chemicals: a pinch of lapdancing for sex, a spoonful of Obama for politics, a little bit of Brokeback Mountain for homosexuality, and a beaker of internet to mix it in. They knew they were crossing the line, but they probably thought it was the gay sex that pushed it over. When the smoke bomb was all mixed together, they realized they needed to make it a particular color(no pun intended). One of the students(a wannabe chemistry major), knew that if another household cleaner(blackface) were added, the resulting smoke would be the correct color. Unfortunately, other chemicals in the cleaner mixed with the smoke bomb to turn it into the high explosive.

Whether Obama was the focus of the skit or not, the bomb was going to go off and become a local, and probably regional, story. The same would be true with Obama in the skit, but the timing offset a year either way. The combination of high explosive and Obama in the middle of a presidental race pushed the story to mainstream national news.

It's easy to just say it's all about politics(false), but that's not the core issue. It's easy to say the students didn't mean any harm or didn't know what they were doing(true), but being a good citizen means knowing your country's history, warts and all. (That last is a lesson that some here have learned, and a couple more could stand to.) We don't need to drop the equivalent of an atom bomb on the students' heads, but just brushing it aside like it's no big deal is exactly what several generations of UND fans have done with their racial issue. It's sure worked out well for them now, hasn't it?

Well, yet another post that's gotten away from me. Let's all sign up for the trip to Mars. Check out Google for details.

[UTH]

I've thrown out some really, really long posts on this thread and another, so I'll try to keep this one in check. I think the S/S students were trying to make a smoke bomb, and ending up making a high explosive. They grabbed some household chemicals: a pinch of lapdancing for sex, a spoonful of Obama for politics, a little bit of Brokeback Mountain for homosexuality, and a beaker of internet to mix it in. They knew they were crossing the line, but they probably thought it was the gay sex that pushed it over. When the smoke bomb was all mixed together, they realized they needed to make it a particular color(no pun intended). One of the students(a wannabe chemistry major), knew that if another household cleaner(blackface) were added, the resulting smoke would be the correct color. Unfortunately, other chemicals in the cleaner mixed with the smoke bomb to turn it into the high explosive.

Whether Obama was the focus of the skit or not, the bomb was going to go off and become a local, and probably regional, story. The same would be true with Obama in the skit, but the timing offset a year either way. The combination of high explosive and Obama in the middle of a presidental race pushed the story to mainstream national news.

It's easy to just say it's all about politics(false), but that's not the core issue. It's easy to say the students didn't mean any harm or didn't know what they were doing(true), but being a good citizen means knowing your country's history, warts and all. (That last is a lesson that some here have learned, and a couple more could stand to.) We don't need to drop the equivalent of an atom bomb on the students' heads, but just brushing it aside like it's no big deal is exactly what several generations of UND fans have done with their racial issue. It's sure worked out well for them now, hasn't it?

Well, yet another post that's gotten away from me. Let's all sign up for the trip to Mars. Check out Google for details.

This is a post that I can get behind. Lucid, honest, to the point, and insightful. I hereby make this my Nomination for Post of the Day of April 1, 2008.


It's Hammertime!
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/tonyrobotdancing.gif
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/blazingsaddlescowboysdancingracist.gif
Is this viewpoint something that everyone can support?

[G-city Bison Fan]

Exactly. G-City...you obviously feel strongly about this. What do you think they did with the intention of being racist? Besides wearing the black-face (which I admit I knew nothing about being a racist thing from way back)

Well I think a few people have done well with summing the ideas up, Hammersmith and tony both mention some things. The black-face thing was really what did it.

TransAm, you may be right...they may not have intented to be racist. Here is the problem, Most of us being born and raised in the upper midwest are not exposed to other ethnicities at all. I know lots of people that wouldn't consider themselves racist, but still mock, look down on, and harbor racist beliefs. I had to open my eyes a little when I moved out of ND and I learned that you have to try to not be racist, it isn't natural for us.

Obama actually made a point in his big race speech a few weeks back that got him in trouble when he was talking about his mother "a typical white woman" in that she felt anxiety walking down the street and seeing black people, even after she married a black man. It is just how we are raised because it is out of the norm for us. But instead of just saying "I am not a racist", we actually have to try not to be.

[UTH]

TransAm, you may be right...they may not have intented to be racist. Here is the problem, Most of us being born and raised in the upper midwest are not exposed to other ethnicities at all. I had to open my eyes a little when I moved out of ND and I learned that you have to try to not be racist, it isn't natural for us.

I disagree that you have to "try to not be racist" - I like to give people more credit than that. However, this post brings up big issues with 'opening your eyes'. It brings back memories from basic training some time ago. As an 18 year old kid from North Dakota who had just run off and joined the 'circus', there was a HUGE racial learning curve and it was a whole new world to me. I'm sure that other military types on Bisonville had pretty much the same impression.

Concerning some people who probably should be trying a little harder "to not be racist", I have one story from Ft. Riley. There was one redneck in the unit who was the butt of pretty much everyone's "you're racist" jokes. He was from Alaska, but had a rebel flag sticker in the back window of his pickup. He made one statement that he NEVER lived down, once it came out of his mouth... A couple guys were teasing him about something and he finally blew up. His answer: "To hell with you people! I'm not racist! Heck, just last week, I let Moe ride in my pickup!" He had no idea or ability to think between the lines on that one. Nobody really cared or called him out on it. The teasing simply doubled.

[TransAmBison]

Well I think a few people have done well with summing the ideas up, Hammersmith and tony both mention some things. The black-face thing was really what did it.

TransAm, you may be right...they may not have intented to be racist. Here is the problem, Most of us being born and raised in the upper midwest are not exposed to other ethnicities at all. I know lots of people that wouldn't consider themselves racist, but still mock, look down on, and harbor racist beliefs. I had to open my eyes a little when I moved out of ND and I learned that you have to try to not be racist, it isn't natural for us.

Obama actually made a point in his big race speech a few weeks back that got him in trouble when he was talking about his mother "a typical white woman" in that she felt anxiety walking down the street and seeing black people, even after she married a black man. It is just how we are raised because it is out of the norm for us. But instead of just saying "I am not a racist", we actually have to try not to be.
Good points.

[Bison Dan]

If you want continue insisting that this is purely political all I'll say is you're going to end up creating a lot of fiscally conservative, war hawk democrats who aren't interested in being the the 'big tent' with racists and homophobes. You might want to rethink that approach. The party of Lincoln is not the party of hate.

There you go throwing around the R word again. I have no approach, I just don't go off half cocked about something that I didn't see and am taking second and third hand info on.

[bisonaudit]

There you go throwing around the R word again. I have no approach, I just don't go off half cocked about something that I didn't see and am taking second and third hand info on.

All I know is that I show up to work everyday in a race, gender, religious, and orientation diverse office and until Friday I never had a second thought about all the NDSU stuff adorning my person and my personal space.

I didn't have to be there to understand how this plays in the press and neither did my friends and colleges. Perception is reality and everytime you try to defend this stuff you make yourself and the rest of us look like bigger fools.

[westriver bison]

I guess I am just not as enlightned as some of you when it comes to race. Only about 20% of the people I work with are minorities. The actor was not in traditional "black face". He had dark makeup on. It was a skit. Wearing makeup in a skit is not unusual. There was nothing directed at any race, just Obama, a public figure who happens to have dark skin. That is why I don't think the skit was racist. Bad taste certainly, bad timing most definatly. Below is a link that has a long discussion on racism. I think it backs my thoughts up. Some of you will think it backs up your thoughts. I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree. Have a great day!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

[UTH]

Perception is reality and everytime you try to defend this stuff you make yourself and the rest of us look like bigger fools.

I'm sure that...


These people would all agree
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/NaziHitlerundpeprally.jpg


Just because something has great appeal as reality at a given point in time, it doesn't mean that it's a valid, 'real reality'. The greatest propagandists in history have, by and large, understood this phenomenon and have exploited it very well. Assuming that people are sheep and working with / around it, instead of getting the story straight the first time is the wrong way to go through life. I would argue that tolerating the theory that perception is reality has contributed greatly to many of the bad stereotypes and deadly misunderstandings that have brought misery.


Think back to the freshman year of college and you might remember the buzzword term, "critical thinking". I hope that people have learned SOMETHING in college.


I'm not saying. I'm just saying.:D

[capitalcitybison]

I am really surprised how little coverage this has received. If you didn't read the Bismarck paper Saturday or look at the web on Friday night you wouldn't even know this had happened. If this had happened at another college would any of us have heard about it or even remembered that it happened a week from now? I just think we live in a youtube society were if there isn't a video playing or pictures to go with the story it's going to go away pretty fast. Not that it makes what happened any less offensive but thats the world I think we live in. I thought for sure we would have some national black leaders demanding an apology or at least coming to Fargo to meet with Chapman. I'm sure after tonights speech by Obama this story will be over, if it isn't already. At least there been good debate on bisonville and some things good things are happening on campus.

[B. b. bison]

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5030/nazihitlerundpeprallyxxar9.png

I found Ralph!

:hide:

[Bison Dan]

All I know is that I show up to work everyday in a race, gender, religious, and orientation diverse office and until Friday I never had a second thought about all the NDSU stuff adorning my person and my personal space.

I didn't have to be there to understand how this plays in the press and neither did my friends and colleges. Perception is reality and everytime you try to defend this stuff you make yourself and the rest of us look like bigger fools.

Perception may be your reality, not mine - and the only thing that can make you look like a fool is yourself.

[capitalcitybison]

I am really surprised how little coverage this has received. If you didn't read the Bismarck paper Saturday or look at the web on Friday night you wouldn't even know this had happened. If this had happened at another college would any of us have heard about it or even remembered that it happened a week from now? I just think we live in a youtube society were if there isn't a video playing or pictures to go with the story it's going to go away pretty fast. Not that it makes what happened any less offensive but thats the world I think we live in. I thought for sure we would have some national black leaders demanding an apology or at least coming to Fargo to meet with Chapman. I'm sure after tonights speech by Obama this story will be over, if it isn't already. At least there been good debate on bisonville and some things good things are happening on campus.

Obama speaks on friday I was thinking one thing and typing another. Bismarck tribune had an editorial today basically ripping NDSU, Parents, groups involved, and calling Chapmans response to the second incident as LAME.

[Hammersmith]

Obama speaks on friday I was thinking one thing and typing another. Bismarck tribune had an editorial today basically ripping NDSU, Parents, groups involved, and calling Chapmans response to the second incident as LAME.

But..but...Bismarck's always loved us in the past. They love Clay County, Fargo and NDSU. They're our best friends. They'd never do anything to help make us look bad.

Oh, wait.

Never mind.


*just trying to insert a tiny bit of levity into this gods awful situation

[AKBison]

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5030/nazihitlerundpeprallyxxar9.png

I found Ralph!

:hide:

I don't care who you are, that was funny. I really needed a good laugh today. Thanks!

[bisonranch]

Bis tribune editorial: http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/04/02/news/opinion/editorials/152381.txt

[aces1180]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=74471&section=homepage

Looks what's in the news now...UND now takes the racial insensitivity headlines back.

[MN_BISON]

Wow, that is ugly. :smh: Some people need to be shown the door.

[runtheoption]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=74471&section=homepage

Looks what's in the news now...UND now takes the racial insensitivity headlines back.

I find this way more disturbing than the NDSU S&S incident or the UND sororiety party. I just don't get why people are anti-Semites. Do these youngsters that were drawing the swastika's and yelling the slurs even have some type of basis (however irrational it may be) for not liking Jews? Do they even know the history behind these symbols/sayings or what they mean?

If they find who did it, an "educational" trip out to Washington DC to visit the Holocaust Museum may be in order.

I hope this young man finds some good friends and comfort in the fraternity he joined.

[runtheoption]

Is it ironic/hypocritical for me to post the above, but yet laugh my butt off when watching the "Overheard in the Bunker" video?

[bisonmike2]

I find this way more disturbing than the NDSU S&S incident or the UND sororiety party. I just don't get why people are anti-Semites. Do these youngsters that were drawing the swastika's and yelling the slurs even have some type of basis (however irrational it may be) for not liking Jews? Do they even know the history behind these symbols/sayings or what they mean?

If they find who did it, an "educational" trip out to Washington DC to visit the Holocaust Museum may be in order.

I hope this young man finds some good friends and comfort in the fraternity he joined.

This is UND you're talking about. I know I'll draw heat from the UND supporters but here I go anyway. Their most prominent alumni is guilty of holding birthday parties for Hitler, whose ghost is still very much holding much of the administration hostage. They ignore and dismiss the wishes of the native american tribes to change the name of their mascot.
UND "We are honoring you by using your religious symbols as our athletic mascot. Can't you see that?"
Native American Tribe. "No your not. It's actually very disrespectful."
UND "What did you say? How 'bout we create another Native American diverstiy class and add a couple more scholarships. We'll call it good, okay? Great!"
Native American Tribe. "No, it's not okay."
UND "I'm sorry did you guys say something?"

[TransAmBison]

This is UND you're talking about. I know I'll draw heat from the UND supporters but here I go anyway. Their most prominent alumni is guilty of holding birthday parties for Hitler, whose ghost is still very much holding much of the administration hostage. They ignore and dismiss the wishes of the native american tribes to change the name of their mascot.
UND "We are honoring you by using your religious symbols as our athletic mascot. Can't you see that?"
Native American Tribe. "No your not. It's actually very disrespectful."
UND "What did you say? How 'bout we create another Native American diverstiy class and add a couple more scholarships. We'll call it good, okay? Great!"
Native American Tribe. "No, it's not okay."
UND "I'm sorry did you guys say something?"
I'm definitely not a UND supporter, but if the tribes get their way and the logo/name is retired I hope all the extra classes/scholarships/whatever go away. There is no reason for it anymore.

[Ferd]

I'm definitely not a UND supporter, but if the tribes get their way and the logo/name is retired I hope all the extra classes/scholarships/whatever go away. There is no reason for it anymore.

I expect that the tribes will be the ones most hurt by (what I think) a change of nickname. No doubt some of the classes, majors, and programs were created to placate the tribes but as long as there is a need for the classes/majors they should continue to be offered. If they don't/can't pull their own weight then they should be cut.

I just don't see being vindictive as a valid reason for action. The leadership of the tribes have voiced their concerns and the NCAA agrees with them. We have a classic disagreement over policy and now with a negotiated settlement that in all likelihood will require a change of the nickname.

I say Get On With It and devote your energy to finding a new nickname and preparing for the massive marketing effort that will be necessary to bring about the change in branding.

AND, Start now so you can spread the cost over the next 2 1/2 years,

:hide: :nod:

[Bison Dan]

I expect that the tribes will be the ones most hurt by (what I think) a change of nickname. No doubt some of the classes, majors, and programs were created to placate the tribes but as long as there is a need for the classes/majors they should continue to be offered. If they don't/can't pull their own weight then they should be cut.

I just don't see being vindictive as a valid reason for action. The leadership of the tribes have voiced their concerns and the NCAA agrees with them. We have a classic disagreement over policy and now with a negotiated settlement that in all likelihood will require a change of the nickname.

I say Get On With It and devote your energy to finding a new nickname and preparing for the massive marketing effort that will be necessary to bring about the change in branding.

AND, Start now so you can spread the cost over the next 2 1/2 years,

:hide: :nod:

Oh don't worry und will try and get the state to foot the bill for the name change. Why do you think they involved the SBoHE into this mess.

[Ferd]

Oh don't worry und will try and get the state to foot the bill for the name change. Why do you think they involved the SBoHE into this mess.

Oh, I'm sure they will. But I think the reason the SBofHE is involved is that UND can't/hasn't handle(d) it. They should have taken care of it $2 million dollars ago!!

[BisonAccountant44]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=74471&section=homepage

Looks what's in the news now...UND now takes the racial insensitivity headlines back.

I don't know if I believe a word of this article. I mean it trys to claim that Kuppy was actually available to make a comment. ;)

Seriously though. I agree that this situation takes the cake out of the three, but this isn't a good thing to have the trucks and us go back and forth on who can top who for the most racially insensitive situation on campus.

[Tatanka]

Oh, I'm sure they will. But I think the reason the SBofHE is involved is that UND can't/hasn't handle(d) it. They should have taken care of it $2 million dollars ago!!
True that.

Hopefully the state legislature in Bismarck has the collective man-berries to not force all of us to pay for their arrogance.

[KC Bison]

Sorry, this is not where this thread needs to end. For all of you worried because a racially insensitive skit was put at NDSU when Obama was coming to the state, I guess you can stop worrying now. We now know that the skit was child's play compared with what Obama has been sitting through. When Obama can't figure out that he has been listening to racist sermons for 20 years, then I guess I'm not going to worry about him being offended by one really bad skit.

[90BISON]

Sorry, this is not where this thread needs to end. For all of you worried because a racially insensitive skit was put at NDSU when Obama was coming to the state, I guess you can stop worrying now. We now know that the skit was child's play compared with what Obama has been sitting through. When Obama can't figure out that he has been listening to racist sermons for 20 years, then I guess I'm not going to worry about him being offended by one really bad skit.

Kind of pales in comparison now doesn't it.:hide: