PDA

View Full Version : Gateway to FBS, Would we go?



tjbison
02-17-2008, 03:08 PM
This thread from Illinois St. about moving to FBS, they they seem to think UNI, ISU, MSU, SIU are the ones that will make the jump and NDSU, SDSU, INDY. ST, Drake, YSU, Valpo etc. will stay in a "Gateway type conference" by 2013. If the MVC jumped to FBS would you be in favor of SU in 2013. Remember this is just MESSAGE BOARD TALK TO PASS THE TIME TILL KICKOFF:p

http://www.redbirdfan.com/msgforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8863

lakesbison
02-17-2008, 03:57 PM
YES! WHY NOT 2010 ? sooner da better!

tjbison
02-17-2008, 04:01 PM
YES! WHY NOT 2010 ? sooner da better!


Could the 4 year restriction have something to do with it?:D

Bisonguy
02-17-2008, 04:11 PM
If the opportunity to move to FBS with a conference (especially one that NDSU is already a member) presented itself, I believe NDSU would heavily consider it.

Hammersmith
02-17-2008, 04:24 PM
Without a doubt, NDSU would move up. We would get all the benefits of a conference in place without the extra travel costs that would come with the WAC. Competition would also be on par with the MAC, at the very least. And as a bonus, it would be one step closer to full MVC membership. What's not to love?

On the con side, it would force us to add at least one women's sport, but that is needed anyway.

Just so I'm not a MlpsBison, I need to say this is just my opinion, not fact, but I'm very confident in it.

NDSU1980
02-17-2008, 05:45 PM
On the con side, it would force us to add at least one women's sport, but that is needed anyway.



OK, clue me in, why would we have to add a women's sport if we moved up to FBS? It's not like we are adding a men's sport such as hockey.

westriver bison
02-17-2008, 05:53 PM
More football scholarships. Can you say equestrian?

Bisonguy
02-17-2008, 06:03 PM
NDSU already sponsors the 16 required sports for FBS membership.

Adding another women's sport would be a good idea, but not required for Title IX, as NDSU has always used the third prong of Title IX compliance (Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented sex)

Hammersmith
02-17-2008, 06:06 PM
More football scholarships. Can you say equestrian?
Exactly. To be safe, we should be giving out scholarships at a proportion very similar to the undergrad proportion of 55/45. Right now, we can only get close by underfunding the men's programs. Adding 15-20 football scholarships would just make things that much worse. I also agree that equestrian is the most likely; tennis, lacrosse or rugby are less likely possibilities.

Hammersmith
02-17-2008, 06:12 PM
NDSU already sponsors the 16 required sports for FBS membership.

Adding another women's sport would be a good idea, but not required for Title IX, as NDSU has always used the third prong of Title IX compliance (Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented sex)

We might be able to use the third prong while we're FCS, but I think the additional 15-20 men's scholarships would really be asking for a lawsuit. We're already dangerously close to one in regards to facilities. Beyond just scholarships, Title IX also requires the quality and condition of the practice, training and locker facilities to be relatively equal between sports of the same tier. Can anyone honestly say that the WBB and VB facilities are equal to FB? The BSA renovation and improvements to the BBF cannot come fast enough.

Bisonguy
02-17-2008, 06:44 PM
We might be able to use the third prong while we're FCS, but I think the additional 15-20 men's scholarships would really be asking for a lawsuit. We're already dangerously close to one in regards to facilities. Beyond just scholarships, Title IX also requires the quality and condition of the practice, training and locker facilities to be relatively equal between sports of the same tier. Can anyone honestly say that the WBB and VB facilities are equal to FB? The BSA renovation and improvements to the BBF cannot come fast enough.

Why would the facilities of WBB and VB need to compare to that of FB?

WBB facilities are already equivalent to that of MBB, VB is comparable to wrestling. Until those sports start bringing in nearly 100k people per year at $20/seat, they're not on the same tier as football.

Would NDSU have to add a women's sport if they move to FBS? No

Should NDSU add a women's sport if they move to FBS? Yes



I just wish NDSU was in a situation like WKU where they moved to FBS due to Title IX!!!

56BISON73
02-17-2008, 06:58 PM
If the conference were to make that move it would be foolish not to. PL

tjbison
02-17-2008, 07:07 PM
I agree 100% with you all, i've been following the talk of this on all the message boards and most seem to think that NDSU/SDSU would not be included, but then they go and say that they can see NDSU in the MVC in a few years. Either way we are in a good position right now, with a fun future to talk about.

Hammersmith
02-17-2008, 07:25 PM
Why would the facilities of WBB and VB need to compare to that of FB?

WBB facilities are already equivalent to that of MBB, VB is comparable to wrestling. Until those sports start bringing in nearly 100k people per year at $20/seat, they're not on the same tier as football.

Would NDSU have to add a women's sport if they move to FBS? No

Should NDSU add a women's sport if they move to FBS? Yes



I just wish NDSU was in a situation like WKU where they moved to FBS due to Title IX!!!

They actually do need to compare. I stumbled across the NCAA handbook to Title IX a few days ago and learned a few new things. In the handbook, they talked about tiers of sports. I think they're more like guidelines, but they illustrate the point well. A tier 1 sport would be one that gives out 100% of the possible aid. A tier 2 would be one that gives out around 50%. A tier 3 would give out <25%. In each tier, there should be proportionality. For example: Let's assume a university with a perfect 50/50 balance of male and female undergrads. If there are 50 men involved in tier 1 sports, there should be 50 women also involved in tier 1 sports. As you can imagine, football does some really bad things to tier 1 calculations. I would bet that NDSU considers WBB, VB, soccer and softball all to be tier 1 for the purposes of gender equity. If you put FB and MBB on the other side, you get approximately 105 male athletes and 61 female athletes participating at NDSU. It's still not great, but it's about as good as NDSU can do(the actual scholarship numbers are different, but I don't have the info on exactly how many scholarships are awarded in each sport).

Within each tier, there should be similar numbers of coachs, amounts and conditions of practice equipment, facilities, recruiting budgets, etc. Now we know that things will never be perfect, but an honest attempt should be made. If a school is going to use prongs 2 or 3, they had better do a damn sight more than just attempt if they don't like courtrooms.

I realize that there are a lot of people on this site that will disagree with the NCAA on this, but remember that we're dealing with decades upon decades of discrimination and marginalization of women's athletics. If things had been handled better in the past, there wouldn't be such a wide discrepency in the popularity between men's and women's sports. Even in just the Title IX-era, there have been huge improvements. Those improvements deserve to continue, and that requires an honest attempt at equity in all things athletic.

[/soapbox] (Man, I'm doing that a lot this weekend; must have too much time on my hands.)


Gender Equity in Intercollegiate Athletics (http://www.ncaa.org/library/general/gender_equity/gender_equity_manual.pdf)(NCAA .pdf)

Hammersmith
02-17-2008, 08:01 PM
(There's a touch of politics in this, but it's necessary due to the topic.)

I want to add one other thing to my Title IX dissertation. There's a difference between the NCAA interpretation of Title IX and the government's interpretation that I did not make clear. In 1996, under the Clinton administration, the Department of Education issued a clarification that reaffirmed Title IX and even strengthened it a bit. In 2005, the DoE under Bush, issued an Additional Clarification that weakened parts of Title IX a good deal. There was a strong attempt to gut it, but that failed when two prominent members of the commission went public with a strongly dissenting minority opinion and several other members of the commission said that the final report that was delivered to the DoE had changes that they had not approved. Public backlash caused the commission's leaders to backpedel and the damage to Title IX was minimized. Still, the government branch that handles Title IX enforcement now has a mess on their hands. They've got two clarifications that confict with each other in several important areas and the 2005 Additional Clarification seems to contridict some case law. If it's not overturned through legislation, it will eventually be tested in court. The outcome is unknown.

The NCAA does not support the 2005 Additional Clarification and urges its members to use the 1996 Clarification instead. This is important to NDSU because the 2005 Additional Clarification directly impacts the "interests and abilities" prong of Title IX. Under the new guidelines, it's very difficult to force a school to add a women's sport. Effectively, prong 3 becomes a haven for those schools who wish to evade compliance. While it would save NDSU money to take that route, it's my opinion that it wouldn't be ethical and that it could come back to bite us in the ass if and when it's overturned. But that's just my(unimportant) opinion.

Bisonguy
02-17-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm still going with test #3 for not having to add additional aid for a women's sport if NDSU goes FBS:


In other words, there is only a
participation issue under Title IX where it can be shown that there are (most
often) women waiting, ready and able to participate in athletics and where men
already occupy a disproportionate number of the existing participation
opportunities. Where an institution can show that it has fully accommodated the
interests and abilities of the under-represented sex, it may continue to add
participation opportunities for the over-represented sex without running afoul of
the law.
(page 26)

Facilities, yes, many need improvement, however:

It is of course
understandable that a new facility that houses certain sports may clearly outshine
an older facility that houses others on the same campus. The key is that access to the new facility should still be as equitable as possible.
(page 50)
Football locker rooms, etc. are obviously the most recently renovated and will be the most up to date until the BSA/BBF are renovated. An argument could be pretty easily made that the football locker rooms previously were one of the worst facilities on campus.

I'm still in favor of adding Equestrian at NDSU ( which I stated on here nearly five years ago). Not due to NDSU possibly moving to FBS, but rather because there's a need for it (plus more benefits for NDSU than any other option).




My issue isn't with Title IX itself, it's with those that think 'direct proportionality' as soon as they hear 'Title IX'. As you've proven with your linky, there's a lot more to it than that.

TheBisonator
02-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Why the hell would the idiots on that board think we wouldn't move up with them to FBS?? Didn't they witness our top-notch facilities and see our thrashing of their Redbirds last season??

NDSU Football has a lot of respect to play for this year.

NDSU1980
02-18-2008, 02:32 AM
More football scholarships. Can you say equestrian?

Hell, maybe they should add some equestrian sport just to keep an old An Sci grad like you happy. :>)

NDSU1980
02-18-2008, 02:41 AM
One only has to look at the old NCC to see what happens when the entire conference doesn't move up together. I would think that in a growing Fargo economy we can swing the extra scholy dollars. Big question is, how big a chance is there that the Gateway will actually follow through and do this. Is any of this coming from AD's, or is it all message board chit chat?

56BISON73
02-18-2008, 02:44 AM
One only has to look at the old NCC to see what happens when the entire conference doesn't move up together. I would think that in a growing Fargo economy we can swing the extra scholy dollars. Big question is, how big a chance is there that the Gateway will actually follow through and do this. Is any of this coming from AD's, or is it all message board chit chat?

Message board chit chat.
But the situation is much different than the old NCC days so thats really not a good analogy. But the scienarios of conference, auto bids scheduling etc would be the same and which would make sense to have the conference move as a whole. PL

westriver bison
02-18-2008, 12:46 PM
Hell, maybe they should add some equestrian sport just to keep an old An Sci grad like you happy. :>)

IMO. Waste of money and resources that could be spent on teaching and research of "production" agriculture. The equine sciences program has brought a lot of new students to the department but has pulled resources(money) away from programs dealing with animals that we eat.

Equestrian would help with compliance issues so the sports that matter don't get shorted.

Bison101
02-27-2008, 01:14 AM
This thread from Illinois St. about moving to FBS, they they seem to think UNI, ISU, MSU, SIU are the ones that will make the jump and NDSU, SDSU, INDY. ST, Drake, YSU, Valpo etc. will stay in a "Gateway type conference" by 2013. If the MVC jumped to FBS would you be in favor of SU in 2013. Remember this is just MESSAGE BOARD TALK TO PASS THE TIME TILL KICKOFF:p

http://www.redbirdfan.com/msgforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8863


Seems to me like the FBS has a lot of conferences already, but that's just my opinion. NDSU joining the Mountain West has possibilities though.

That would be swell. NDSU in the Mountain West, while the Fighting Sioux (or other team name for U.N.D.) are in the Great West. :nod:

TheBisonator
02-27-2008, 03:36 AM
Seems to me like the FBS has a lot of conferences already, but that's just my opinion. NDSU joining the Mountain West has possibilities though.

That would be swell. NDSU in the Mountain West, while the Fighting Sioux (or other team name for U.N.D.) are in the Great West. :nod:

You think 10 conferences is too many?? That's only 4 more than what college hockey has.

Hammersmith
02-27-2008, 07:09 AM
You think 10 conferences is too many?? That's only 4 more than what college hockey has.

Eleven, actually, but I agree that there's room for another(it is my pet dream after all).

tony
02-27-2008, 09:25 AM
In light of the topic about Team Maker dues, how much would they go up to support an FBS move?

Herd
02-27-2008, 10:54 PM
While the Mountain West is a nice thought, I'd prefer and FBS Missouri Valley to the MW. There are a lot of reasons, the least of which is playing in the central time zone.

Missouri Valley compared to the MAC or WAC? No contest, FBS Missouri Valley by far!!! The MW would be my 2nd favorite choice, but NDSU will not have a MW, MAC or WAC choice. I do believe, however, that our Missouri Valley option will come true w/i the next 5 years.

tjbison
02-27-2008, 11:12 PM
MVC would be the far better choice if they moved the ENTIRE conference! MW, WAC travel is a huge issue with either of those.

westriver bison
02-28-2008, 12:59 AM
IMO if we can't get the funding and facilities to go Big Ten or Big 12 we should stay where we are at. I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond than a minnow in the ocean. And yes, I thought the jump to FCS was the right choice at the time because it fit our funding and facilities.

tjbison
02-28-2008, 02:02 AM
IMO if we can't get the funding and facilities to go Big Ten or Big 12 we should stay where we are at. I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond than a minnow in the ocean. And yes, I thought the jump to FCS was the right choice at the time because it fit our funding and facilities.

Even with the funding I doubt this would happen FOR A LONG LONG LONG LONG time, if ever. I still think a FBS gateway/mvc would become a pretty solid conference, with maybe a few more schools jumping in!

missingnumber7
03-06-2008, 02:25 PM
Isn't there a morotorium(sp?) on moves until 2013? Gives us plenty of time to upgrade all facilities involved, and figure out a way to get way above the 15000 average attendance that I believe you need to be FBS.

Hammersmith
03-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Isn't there a morotorium(sp?) on moves until 2013? Gives us plenty of time to upgrade all facilities involved, and figure out a way to get way above the 15000 average attendance that I believe you need to be FBS.

2011, and we could go right now if we had a conference and the money for the additional scholarships. Of course, just because we can do it doesn't necessarily mean we should the minute the moritorium expires.

TheBisonator
03-06-2008, 09:50 PM
2011, and we could go right now if we had a conference and the money for the additional scholarships. Of course, just because we can do it doesn't necessarily mean we should the minute the moritorium expires.

Exactly. In my opinion, we'd need to wait until we know we'd be one of the top non-BCS programs in FBS before we made the move.