Sources: UND faces retiring Fighting Sioux nickname

[NDSUstudent]

The Fighting Sioux nickname will be retired in three years unless the University of North Dakota gets support from the area’s Sioux tribes, according to terms of a pending settlement agreement.


Anonymous sources familiar with initial settlement talks told The Forum the proposed agreement with the NCAA allows UND to use the Fighting Sioux nickname in postseason play for the next three years.......

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=181829&section=news

[tjbison]

I still think its too bad they have to change their name, as much as I do not like UND its a shame. I thought the two leading universities had mascots that represented the state well. The History of the Dakotas revolve around the Native americans and the Bison. I think it will be a sad day when they retire it. I also hope they decide before the 3 years as I am a little tired of hearing about it. Just my opinion:)

[Bison bison]

I too am tired of the issue.

I also don't see how this settlement doesn't make an absolute mess of things. How can anyone believe that UND's overtures of the tribes are sincere when self-interest is so obviously/strongly involved? With UND failing to do anything after their prior agreement with Spirit Lake in 2000(?) are they going to 'really try' now that the bottom line is they must have tribal approval?

I also think that UND and the NCAA are absolute buttheads for putting the issue completely on the tribes.

[Bison bison]

Agreement Highlight from the Forum:

- Some of the Sioux logos would have to be removed from the Ralph Engelstad Arena, but the more permanent logos, such as those in granite, would stay.


They've gone so far as to discuss the removal of logos and make decisions about which will go or stay........

[bisonaudit]

If this is true it's going to give HUGE leverage to the tribes. It'll be interesting to see how much the Englestads are willing to pay to keep the nickname and whether and which of the tribes can get together to maximize their bargining power.

Cabinet level advisory position.
Free tuition, room, board, and books.
An exceedingly generous merchandise and licensing agreement.
A direct investment in Tribal elementary and secondary education.
Convert the lobby of the Ralph into a museum grade display on First Nations history.
A couple prominent parcels of University land.
Gaming development partnership.

[Hammersmith]

SBoHE agreed to the settlement:

Sioux settlement approved (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=181852&section=news)


on a lighter note...

UND President Charles Kupchella was not present for the settlement discussion today because he’s in Pennsylvania on vacation.

He doesn't exist. He's actually a figment of our collective imagination.

[THEsocalledfan]

If this is true it's going to give HUGE leverage to the tribes. It'll be interesting to see how much the Englestads are willing to pay to keep the nickname and whether and which of the tribes can get together to maximize their bargining power..

I was thinking the same thing. UND now needs to go into massive fundraising mode and buy their approval, as that is the only way they will get it. Just like how UND dropped their questions about the name for $200 million, I suspect the tribes themselves could be convinced to allow the name if enough money is given to them.

By no means is this intended as any type of negative comment about the tribes. I just think human nature is human nature and money talks and bull sh%t walks......

You can help a lot of people with the type of money they may be able to get from UND.

[RodentiaX]

You can get an undergraduate degree in Indian Studies at UND, perhaps adding a graduate level Indian Studies program could help. I think the idea of a museum, then again, I just generally like museums. Perhaps some more scholarships could be given out.

It's going to be a matter of doing some things for the tribes, and a PR matter.

[roadwarrior]

Listening to the report on the radio today, they were explaining even IF the tribes were to approve the name today, that does not prevent the tribes from rescinding their action in the future. If that happens, UND would have to change the name within a year.

There is only one way to solve this permanently, and that is to change the name.

[westriver bison]

My guess is UND funds the atheletic programs on the two reservations to the tune of $100,00 per year from now until the tribes want more, or change their mind.

[onbison09]

It's on the ESPN ticker that the lawsuit is settled. It's official: 3 years to get tribal approval. Frankly I hope they do. http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=181852&section=news

[ndsu lakota]

I know my tribe probably won't give them approval. Hell they don't even help kids that want to go to UND I believe.

[56BISON73]

I know my tribe probably won't give them approval. Hell they don't even help kids that want to go to UND I believe.

I bet thats going to change. PL

[56BISON73]

If this is true it's going to give HUGE leverage to the tribes. It'll be interesting to see how much the Englestads are willing to pay to keep the nickname and whether and which of the tribes can get together to maximize their bargining power.

Cabinet level advisory position.
Free tuition, room, board, and books.
An exceedingly generous merchandise and licensing agreement.
A direct investment in Tribal elementary and secondary education.
Convert the lobby of the Ralph into a museum grade display on First Nations history.
A couple prominent parcels of University land.
Gaming development partnership.

You can rest assured that they will come up with more than that. But your list was a pretty good start. LOL PL

[Tatanka]

It's on the ESPN ticker that the lawsuit is settled. It's official: 3 years to get tribal approval. Frankly I hope they do. http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=181852&section=news
Which would you rather have on the ESPN ticker: lawsuit news or ND STATE 27 MINNESOTA 21?

[Shawn-O]

Listening to the report on the radio today, they were explaining even IF the tribes were to approve the name today, that does not prevent the tribes from rescinding their action in the future. If that happens, UND would have to change the name within a year.

There is only one way to solve this permanently, and that is to change the name.

You are correct Roadwarrior. I was thinking some sort of a royalty agreement could be in the cards, but after that language, I wish to move on. The end of an era began today.

[Tatanka]

Yes, please let's get this overwith and move on.

[braveheart]

We've gotta winner here folks!!! Just put aside your petty jealousy and blind pride and there is a huge solution to this mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;) ;) ;) :bow: :bow: :bow:

[braveheart]

I know my tribe probably won't give them approval. Hell they don't even help kids that want to go to UND I believe.With all due respect and required reverence bring on the WHITE BUFFALO:bow: :bow: :bow:

[tony]

Imagine UND talking to the Sioux and getting their permission to use THEIR name and THEIR image to market UND's athletic programs? That's so crazy it might work!

Why do you suppose that UND never tried that before?

[THEsocalledfan]

You are correct Roadwarrior. I was thinking some sort of a royalty agreement could be in the cards, but after that language, I wish to move on. The end of an era began today.

Shawn-O

Don't you think old Ralphy probably still has some money left for this? My theory? UND will make a deal, with the help of the Ralphy foundation, to pay a yearly fee to the tribes to use the name. No permission given, no payment. Its that simple. Would the tribes really pass up this big money opportunity? Heck, I would cheer for the Trucks against the Bison if someone paid me enough!

[ndsu lakota]

Shawn-O

Don't you think old Ralphy probably still has some money left for this? My theory? UND will make a deal, with the help of the Ralphy foundation, to pay a yearly fee to the tribes to use the name. No permission given, no payment. Its that simple. Would the tribes really pass up this big money opportunity? Heck, I would cheer for the Trucks against the Bison if someone paid me enough!

Money isn't everything..."That's why the Sioux, among the poorest people in America, refuse the half-billion dollars offered by the U.S. government, which has claimed ownership of this land since 1877.

The Indians have a longer memory. In 1868, the United States signed a treaty setting aside the Black Hills "for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupancy of the Sioux." Then gold was discovered there, and Congress grabbed the land after negotiations to purchase it broke down."

Trust me, we could use that money, but money isn't everything.

[braveheart]

Imagine UND talking to the Sioux and getting their permission to use THEIR name and THEIR image to market UND's athletic programs? That's so crazy it might work!

Why do you suppose that UND never tried that before?Tony, get real, Native Americans cannot be bought.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[THEsocalledfan]

Money isn't everything..."That's why the Sioux, among the poorest people in America, refuse the half-billion dollars offered by the U.S. government, which has claimed ownership of this land since 1877.

The Indians have a longer memory. In 1868, the United States signed a treaty setting aside the Black Hills "for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupancy of the Sioux." Then gold was discovered there, and Congress grabbed the land after negotiations to purchase it broke down."

Trust me, we could use that money, but money isn't everything.

I hope your right. We will see as I am sure UND with try to buy off the tribes.

[56BISON73]

Money isn't everything..."That's why the Sioux, among the poorest people in America, refuse the half-billion dollars offered by the U.S. government, which has claimed ownership of this land since 1877.

The Indians have a longer memory. In 1868, the United States signed a treaty setting aside the Black Hills "for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupancy of the Sioux." Then gold was discovered there, and Congress grabbed the land after negotiations to purchase it broke down."

Trust me, we could use that money, but money isn't everything.

One must live in the here and now. To live in abject poverty and suject your children to it is unexcusable . All you are doing is cutting off your own nose to spite your face. PL

[NDSU1980]

After listening to McFeely explain why the name has to be changed on his Saturday sports show, I have to say, this is one time where Mike knows what he's talking about. I honestly think he got it right.

[ndsu lakota]

One must live in the here and now. To live in abject poverty and suject your children to it is unexcusable . All you are doing is cutting off your own nose to spite your face. PL

Pride is something my people have and something noone can take from us. The Black Hills is sacred to us, it's where we believe we came from (our creation story) and our Holy Land which is rightfully ours. Money isn't everything when it comes to our beliefs. Taking that money would be sacreligious to my people. Do you think the Jewish people would take loads of money to leave Jerusalem? The Black Hills is my peoples Jerusalem. I agree we could use that money, but taking it would go against everything my ancestors gave their lives for.

[56BISON73]

Pride is something my people have and something noone can take from us. The Black Hills is sacred to us, it's where we believe we came from (our creation story) and our Holy Land which is rightfully ours. Money isn't everything when it comes to our beliefs. Taking that money would be sacreligious to my people. Do you think the Jewish people would take loads of money to leave Jerusalem? The Black Hills is my peoples Jerusalem. I agree we could use that money, but taking it would go against everything my ancestors gave their lives for.

We werent discussing the Black Hills. PL

[onbison09]

Great to hear from someone who knows the true perspective. What do the majority of Lakota's think of the name? My former neighbor is Lakota so I would be interested to know.

[Shawn-O]

Pride is something my people have and something noone can take from us. The Black Hills is sacred to us, it's where we believe we came from (our creation story) and our Holy Land which is rightfully ours. Money isn't everything when it comes to our beliefs. Taking that money would be sacreligious to my people. Do you think the Jewish people would take loads of money to leave Jerusalem? The Black Hills is my peoples Jerusalem. I agree we could use that money, but taking it would go against everything my ancestors gave their lives for.

The name is changing, time to move on without you, "NDSU Lakota". What's with the FSU logo, anyway? I don't know you, but I'd bet money you're a fraud.

[Swaghook]

Wonder if the tribes will ever go after the ND state highway patrol for their use of Red Tomahawk as their symbol. After all Red Tomahawk is the one who assassinated Sitting Bull.

[BisBison]

The name is changing, time to move on without you, "NDSU Lakota". What's with the FSU logo, anyway? I don't know you, but I'd bet money you're a fraud.

You know Shawn, I was thinking the same thing. Where did this guy come from? If one logo is offensive isn't the other one?

[westriver bison]

My boss is Lakota. He doesn't have a problem with the Sioux name or it's use at UND. He does have a problem with some of the things fans of other teams say about the Sioux, even though he realizes the taunts are directed at the college and not the tribe.

You bring up NDSU Lakota using a symbol and wondering if it is offensive. Many of the N.A. I work with view it like African-Americans view the N word. It's ok if they use it, but it is not OK for people not of their race to use it.

I don't understand the logic but I'm not of their culture. I think the nickname should go away, not because it or the logos are offensive, but because some of the cheers/taunts/clothes at sporting events are.

[56BISON73]

I have a NA friend from FLA. I have asked him the question about NA symbols etc. Obviously he said they dont have a problem with it.
His words about the UND situation were "they are sticking it to them because"" ''They can" and for no other reason.
He also mentioned that most of the hoopla and bs in the news is brought about by wannabes stirring crap up..PL

[ndsu lakota]

The name is changing, time to move on without you, "NDSU Lakota". What's with the FSU logo, anyway? I don't know you, but I'd bet money you're a fraud.

what's wrong with me being an FSU fan all my life? Big difference between UND and FSU is FSU went and received permission to use the "Seminole" name from the Seminole Nation of Florida, unlike UND. But please, explain how me being an FSU fan and a Lakota from Standing Rock makes me a fraud?

[ndsu lakota]

You know Shawn, I was thinking the same thing. Where did this guy come from? If one logo is offensive isn't the other one?

As I just explained, big difference in getting a tribes permission to use a name and not getting it. As far as "The Fighting Sioux" being offensive, please point out to me where I said I found it offensive? Thanks.

[ndsu lakota]

but because some of the cheers/taunts/clothes at sporting events are.

That's where some people get offended. Most don't care about the name, but seeing fans dressing in feathers and "war paint" and what not gets some people upset...mostly the older people.

[ndsu lakota]

Great to hear from someone who knows the true perspective. What do the majority of Lakota's think of the name? My former neighbor is Lakota so I would be interested to know.

Most people I know around my age really could care less about the name, some even like it. I don't mind it at all, my people did fight and many of my ancestors gave their lives trying to protect their way of life. One thing I don't care for though is the cheers, love it here at NDSU...but don't care for the cheers "Sioux suck shit?" and I also heard "Sioux are faggots" at a game last year. Yes I know they're talking about UND, but hey...I'm a Sioux, those type of cheers only work if you're talking about Gophers, Horned Toads and other types of mascots most Universities have.

[lakesbison]

http://www.startribune.com/503/story/1524478.html

out of money huh?

[DIBISON]

http://www.startribune.com/503/story/1524478.html

out of money huh?

And the Gophers still won't schedule them. That has to hurt especially after the Bison weekend in Gopherland......

[BlueBisonRock]

And the Gophers still won't schedule them. That has to hurt especially after the Bison weekend in Gopherland......

Interesting article. However, this decision belongs to the Dakota tribes, not to some U of MN sociology professor. If the tribes state No - stick a fork in it. It is done. If the tribes agree (however remote), the gophers can talk all they want and can take any stance that they want. It ain't their decision.

Thanks to the agreement fostered by 'running out of defense money', this decision is finally being taken to the right folks.

[met1990]

Thanks to the agreement fostered by 'running out of defense money', this decision is finally being taken to the right folks.

Didn't the "right folks" already make their decision? Isn't that why the NCAA wouldn't allow UND to keep the nickname to begin with? I don't get why if the tribes already wouldn't give formal support to the NCAA that they have to get the pressure of three more years to decide what they've already decided.

[NDSU1980]

There was a story on the radio today that Standing Rock voted yesterday not to let UND use the Sioux name. Story said they had 3 years, and they were denied in less then 3 weeks.

[UTH]

There was a story on the radio today that Standing Rock voted yesterday not to let UND use the Sioux name. Story said they had 3 years, and they were denied in less then 3 weeks.

Here is the [story (http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2007/11/15/news/local/142786.txt)].

I've been thinking this ever since the stipulation became public:

Ron His Horse Is Thunder said he thought UND officials should use the three years to plan for changing the nickname and dropping the logo, rather than attempting to persuade the tribes to change their minds

[56BISON73]

Its going to take three years to change the logo and ramp up the marketing dept to get people to accept the new logo-nickname before the end of their transition. They new what they were doing. PL

[UTH]

Its going to take three years to change the logo and ramp up the marketing dept to get people to accept the new logo-nickname before the end of their transition. They new what they were doing. PL

I agree. The question is whether wisdom or arrogance will prevail in deciding which course of action they choose to pursue. I think they will delay any action on accepting a name change as long as they possibly can. It will take a swimming pool of popcorn to go along with this soap opera.

[Ferd]

A lot of money has been spent fighting the battle, but it does not seem wise to me to even try to get the name endorsed by the tribes. Any endorsement can be rescinded at anytime giving UND one year to change.

I wouldn't want ANY outside entity having that much control over how much we have to spend on uniforms, letterhead, signage, and numerous other costly items. Yearly budgets are tough enough to deal with without letting someone with little or no empathy for the school making expensive decisions.

I suggest they use the three years to find a new nickname and plan for a switch. At least they'll be able to spread the cost and effort over three years.

In hindsight it's fortunate when we changed from "Aggies" we chose something that doesn't speak.

[Ferd]

If they want to start looking this site may be a good starting point:

http://www.smargon.net/nicknames/

It lists almost all of the nicknames for colleges in the US. (Some restrictions apply.)

[UTH]

If they want to start looking this site may be a good starting point:

http://www.smargon.net/nicknames/

It lists almost all of the nicknames for colleges in the US. (Some restrictions apply.)

The "Black Flies"???

[RodentiaX]

There's the UC-Santa Cruz Banana Slugs. I was living in California when the official state molusk was chosen. The state chose the banana slug over the abalone. One abalone supporter pointed out the the abalone is beautiful and testes delicious. The banana slug is ugly and tastes terrible. There was an attempt to make the abalone the official aquatic molusk, but I don't know if anything happened on that front.

[56BISON73]

"""UC-Santa Cruz Banana Slugs"""

Ive always liked that name. Why I dont know????:D PL

[westriver bison]

I think they should be the Banana Hammocks. Picture below. :bow:



http://www.filmfodder.com/reviews/archives/borat.jpg

[tcbison]

There was a story on the radio today that Standing Rock voted yesterday not to let UND use the Sioux name. Story said they had 3 years, and they were denied in less then 3 weeks.

The vote was 8-1. I hope they did it by secret ballot because I would hate to be the 1 that voted for the use of the name. He probably wouldn't be very liked in the tribe.

[56BISON73]

I think they should be the Banana Hammocks. Picture below. :bow:



http://www.filmfodder.com/reviews/archives/borat.jpg

Now thats funny!!!!! PL

[TheBisonator]

There's the UC-Santa Cruz Banana Slugs. I was living in California when the official state molusk was chosen. The state chose the banana slug over the abalone. One abalone supporter pointed out the the abalone is beautiful and testes delicious. The banana slug is ugly and tastes terrible. There was an attempt to make the abalone the official aquatic molusk, but I don't know if anything happened on that front.

Funny typo right there!!!

[bincitysioux]

The vote was 8-1. I hope they did it by secret ballot because I would hate to be the 1 that voted for the use of the name. He probably wouldn't be very liked in the tribe.

More like he probably wouldn't be very well liked by some of the other council members. 2 other members chose not to vote, and 6 other members were absent.

[bisoneer]

My guess is UND funds the atheletic programs on the two reservations to the tune of $100,00 per year from now until the tribes want more, or change their mind.

I think standing rock will be a tough one to negotiate with any amount of cash.

[NDSUFREAK]

Funny typo right there!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RodentiaX]

Funny typo right there!!!

I meant "tastes", of course... I've eaten abalone, and it's quite good. As for abalone testes, no, I didn't eat that part. :D

[IowaBisonToo]

I meant "tastes", of course... I've eaten abalone, and it's quite good. As for abalone testes, no, I didn't eat that part. :D

At least that you know of.:nod:

[DORMIE]

I heard the other day that they also have a problem with their other logo, the interlocking N & D that Notre Dame uses. Guess The Fighting Irish don't want to be confused with UND with their move up to D1

[MinotBison]

This article was in the GF Herald. Looks like the name change will indeed be happening.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=58679&section=news

[Tatanka]

News flash: Kupchella didn't attend the press conference but he did in fact eat wild rice soup and sandwiches for lunch. Now THAT's journalism!!!:rolleyes:

[RodentiaX]

At least that you know of.:nod:

I know what part of the abalone I ate, I got them when I went abalone diving way back. You cut off everything but the muscle.

[BigBison]

This whole thing is stupid. The natives think this name change will bring North Dakota into the 21st centery, its not going to do anything, to help progess the state along. Then the natives feel they can offer what the new name should be, "RoughRiders" they shouldnt be doing that and just should just say "no." Also UND shouldnt "pay-off" the natives, if it gets to that point UND should tell them to go jump in a lake, change their name, and not offer native students special scholarships. Let them keep their special name. Also when or if UND and NDSU(or it could be any school for that matter) plays agian your still going to hear Sioux Suck (-you-know-what-). Point is, they are still going to be the soiux in the eyes of everyone, even if they change the name. Thats just my 2 cents, PS the phone callers on KFGO are some of the stupidest pointless calls ever in the history of radio. They seriously sound like they've lived in a cave all their lives and just got a radio and phone today. Also if anyone is thinking backward its the sioux tribe, UND is trying to make a proud name of the word "Sioux" but the natives are going by a 200 or however year old definition maybe these tribe should change they way they think of the word sioux just like the rest of the world. People know what the word Sioux means but Lakota or whatever their real name is the general public doesnt have a cule. Ok rant off.

Ok I just thought I should edit this because after reseaching the topic more, I may have been harsh in my above rant. I was acutally listening to KFGO this moring and the way the people on the radio were talking just got my blood to boil. I just dont want to see the Sioux name go, even though I'm a 110% Bison.

[tcbison]

I heard the other day that they also have a problem with their other logo, the interlocking N & D that Notre Dame uses. Guess The Fighting Irish don't want to be confused with UND with their move up to D1

Could this be another lawsuit in the making?

[TransAmBison]

This whole thing is stupid. The natives think this name change will bring North Dakota into the 21st centery, its not going to do anything, to help progess the state along. Then the natives feel they can offer what the new name should be, "RoughRiders" they shouldnt be doing that and just should just say "no." Also UND shouldnt "pay-off" the natives, if it gets to that point UND should tell them to go jump in a lake, change their name, and not offer native students special scholarships. Let them keep their special name. Also when or if UND and NDSU(or it could be any school for that matter) plays agian your still going to hear Sioux Suck (-you-know-what-). Point is, they are still going to be the soiux in the eyes of everyone, even if they change the name. Thats just my 2 cents, PS the phone callers on KFGO are some of the stupidest pointless calls ever in the history of radio. They seriously sound like they've lived in a cave all their lives and just got a radio and phone today. Also if anyone is thinking backward its the sioux tribe, UND is trying to make a proud name of the word "Sioux" but the natives are going by a 200 or however year old definition maybe these tribe should change they way they think of the word sioux just like the rest of the world. People know what the word Sioux means but Lakota or whatever their real name is the general public doesnt have a cule. Ok rant off.
My two cents: The tribes should worry less about the name, and worry more about the image the portray with how they treat their reservations. They are the ones that are running their own names through the muck.

[UTH]

Could this be another lawsuit in the making?

Now, that's interesting...
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[ndsu lakota]

My two cents: The tribes should worry less about the name, and worry more about the image the portray with how they treat their reservations. They are the ones that are running their own names through the muck.

Why don't you get a clue before you go and start yapping? Some of you act like the Tribes sit around bitching about the name...something they do not. They only voted like 2 weeks ago because the court said UND had to get their approval..they don't sit around 24/7 bitching about the name. Some serious ignorant statements in this thread, but something that's not surprising.

[TransAmBison]

Why don't you get a clue before you go and start yapping? Some of you act like the Tribes sit around bitching about the name...something they do not. They only voted like 2 weeks ago because the court said UND had to get their approval..they don't sit around 24/7 bitching about the name. Some serious ignorant statements in this thread, but something that's not surprising.
I didn't say they around 24/7 complaining, did I? You put those words in my mouth. There was the ignorant statement. Reread my post and you will see what my meaning is...even if it isn't very PC.

[Hammerhead]

The rough riders would be a good nickname -- if it wasn't already taken by G.F. Red River high.

[UTH]

The rough riders would be a good nickname -- if it wasn't already taken by G.F. Red River high.

Yeah - and it's bad policy to have two teams at the same level having the same name. Especially when they're geographically so close together.

I've always preferred the
Fighting Snotrockets.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Boogies.jpg

[ndsu lakota]

I didn't say they around 24/7 complaining, did I? You put those words in my mouth. There was the ignorant statement. Reread my post and you will see what my meaning is...even if it isn't very PC.

"The tribes should worry less about the name, and worry more about the image the portray with how they treat their reservations."

Yes, we obviously sit around worrying about the UND name. How do we portray our reservations? How are we running "our name in the muck?" You're assuming we sit around worrying about the UND nickname while doing nothing about our problems on the reservation. Yet, the tribal council on my reservation hardly sit around talking about the UND nickname. Most indian resverations have problems, so does our country..things don't get fixed over night. My tribe has lots of programs to help people out, but there's nothing they can do if people don't choose to use them. Of course your comment isn't 'very PC' I wouldn't expect someone from around here to be very 'PC' towards native americans.

[SirHinn]

"The tribes should worry less about the name, and worry more about the image the portray with how they treat their reservations."

Yes, we obviously sit around worrying about the UND name. How do we portray our reservations? How are we running "our name in the muck?" You're assuming we sit around worrying about the UND nickname while doing nothing about our problems on the reservation. Yet, the tribal council on my reservation hardly sit around talking about the UND nickname. Most indian resverations have problems, so does our country..things don't get fixed over night. My tribe has lots of programs to help people out, but there's nothing they can do if people don't choose to use them. Of course your comment isn't 'very PC' I wouldn't expect someone from around here to be very 'PC' towards native americans.

What if UND yanks all the funding and programs for the Native Americans? UND does an awful lot for Native Americans and I would hate to see them take such an action but considering the circumstances though and the Sioux tribe even refusing to work with them, one has to wonder what actions UND would take.

[UTH]

I hope this thread remains as cordial and respectful as possible. There is no need for a big flame war in Bisonville on this subject, especially when the proper venue for such an event would be at www.http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/SchutzStaffelSS.png.com. If they'd tried a different name in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue today, anyway.

Just hoping to head off unnecessary unpleasantries here.

[56BISON73]

What if UND yanks all the funding and programs for the Native Americans? UND does an awful lot for Native Americans and I would hate to see them take such an action but considering the circumstances though and the Sioux tribe even refusing to work with them, one has to wonder what actions UND would take.

Why should they be treated any different than any other student or group. If N/As want to go to UND fine. But they should receive the same treatment as any other student. To show them favor is nothing more than discrimination. PL

[UTH]

What if UND yanks all the funding and programs for the Native Americans? UND does an awful lot for Native Americans and I would hate to see them take such an action but considering the circumstances though and the Sioux tribe even refusing to work with them, one has to wonder what actions UND would take.

Even THEY don't have the guts to take an action like that. Any institution that reacts in such a way is going to cement its racist place in the news for all to see. Their future is already shaky enough.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gifhttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gifhttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gifhttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gifhttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gifhttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/popc1bp3.gif

[tony]

When folks start generalizing about people based on race, I get very uncomfortable. If you want to generalize about the Sioux, please take it some place else. It is ugly. Yes, the Sioux have problems, big problems, in their communities. Well, guess what? So does all of North Dakota: for example, chronic obesity, binge drinking (seriously, when the hell our North Dakotans going to learn how to drink like adults?), xenophobia, and an aging and declining population. Those are very real problems but, you know what, I don't honor North Dakotans by going around badmouthing them. When I talk about North Dakotans, I stress their good qualities and defend them when they are attacked as being ignorant, intolerant hicks (and, yeah, it pisses me off to no end "coast folks" make assumptions about North Dakotans like that). Anyway, when the heck was the last time that a nickname supporter said anything about what they admire about the living Sioux? I sure hear a lot about everything they dislike about them. The only time I hear any admiration for an individual Sioux person is if they are on the right side of the nickname issue and then they are paraded around like a show dog. Crap, I bet 99% of the students at UND can't name more than 5 living Sioux indians. Hehe, I'm in FULL RANT MODE NOW! BEWARE! :)

The central lie at the heart of the nickname debate is that UND only intends to honor the Sioux. They did not and do not - not any more than Devils Lake intended to honor Satan with their old nickname. UND folks wanted a fierce mascot that killed bison and they wanted one with local ties. In that respect, Sioux is perfect (it also gave them decades of fun dressing up as Indians). IMO, if UND intended to honor the Sioux, they would have had some Sioux on campus during their first 70 years of existence.

All UND is doing is using the Sioux name and a view of their history to market their athletic teams. The nearest analogy I can think of is if somebody used my family's name to market a product without our permission. To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill. I'm amazed at how patient the Standing Rock tribe has been on this issue. The sad part about this whole deal is that if UND had only sat down and really talked with the Sioux 20 years ago (instead of spending the last two decades talking down to them like the UND alumni association president was their Great White Father), I think they could have come to an understanding. The way people defended the nickname was, in my view, ten times more damaging than the actual use. It has revealed some real ugliness in a lot of people. Of course, they'll say that the ugliness wouldn't have occurred without this issue. That is total BS though.

Rant over.

[56BISON73]

When folks start generalizing about people based on race, I get very uncomfortable. If you want to generalize about the Sioux, please take it some place else. It is ugly. Yes, the Sioux have problems, big problems, in their communities. Well, guess what? So does all of North Dakota: for example, chronic obesity, binge drinking (seriously, when the hell our North Dakotans going to learn how to drink like adults?), xenophobia, and an aging and declining population. Those are very real problems but, you know what, I don't honor North Dakotans by going around badmouthing them. When I talk about North Dakotans, I stress their good qualities and defend them when they are attacked as being ignorant, intolerant hicks (and, yeah, it pisses me off to no end "coast folks" make assumptions about North Dakotans like that). Anyway, when the heck was the last time that a nickname supporter said anything about what they admire about the living Sioux? I sure hear a lot about everything they dislike about them. The only time I hear any admiration for an individual Sioux person is if they are on the right side of the nickname issue and then they are paraded around like a show dog. Crap, I bet 99% of the students at UND can't name more than 5 living Sioux indians. Hehe, I'm in FULL RANT MODE NOW! BEWARE! :)

The central lie at the heart of the nickname debate is that UND only intends to honor the Sioux. They did not and do not - not any more than Devils Lake intended to honor Satan with their old nickname. UND folks wanted a fierce mascot that killed bison and they wanted one with local ties. In that respect, Sioux is perfect (it also gave them decades of fun dressing up as Indians). IMO, if UND intended to honor the Sioux, they would have had some Sioux on campus during their first 70 years of existence.

All UND is doing is using the Sioux name and a view of their history to market their athletic teams. The nearest analogy I can think of is if somebody used my family's name to market a product without our permission. To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill. I'm amazed at how patient the Standing Rock tribe has been on this issue. The sad part about this whole deal is that if UND had only sat down and really talked with the Sioux 20 years ago (instead of spending the last two decades talking down to them like the UND alumni association president was their Great White Father), I think they could have come to an understanding. The way people defended the nickname was, in my view, ten times more damaging than the actual use. It has revealed some real ugliness in a lot of people. Of course, they'll say that the ugliness wouldn't have occurred without this issue. That is total BS though.

Rant over.

Guess Iam going to have to rally all the Norweigns and protest outside the Vikings office in Eden Praire. The owe my some serious money from all the merchadies they have been selling. Oh and the depiction of the Viking at games???? Shame shame. Oh and Capital One is going to be getting a call from out lawyer as well. Talk about stereo types in their commercials. :D
PL

[ndsu lakota]

What if UND yanks all the funding and programs for the Native Americans? UND does an awful lot for Native Americans and I would hate to see them take such an action but considering the circumstances though and the Sioux tribe even refusing to work with them, one has to wonder what actions UND would take.

Well that would be unfortunate. I'm not against the name and wish both tribes would work something out with UND. But if they did, I wouldn't blame them. I really don't like the ideal of certain people getting more types of funding over others. It just seems to create more problems.

I just don't like how the judge left it to the tribes alone. Both tribes have been against the name for years and if they stick to their guns, they get made to look like the bad guys while UND gets off. If they give permission to UND to use the name, it will look like 'oh they just can't resist that money.'

[tony]

When folks start generalizing about people based on race, I get very uncomfortable. If you want to generalize about the Sioux, please take it some place else. It is ugly. Yes, the Sioux have problems, big problems, in their communities. Well, guess what? So does all of North Dakota: for example, chronic obesity, binge drinking (seriously, when the hell our North Dakotans going to learn how to drink like adults?), xenophobia, and an aging and declining population. Those are very real problems but, you know what, I don't honor North Dakotans by going around badmouthing them. When I talk about North Dakotans, I stress their good qualities and defend them when they are attacked as being ignorant, intolerant hicks (and, yeah, it pisses me off to no end "coast folks" make assumptions about North Dakotans like that). Anyway, when the heck was the last time that a nickname supporter said anything about what they admire about the living Sioux? I sure hear a lot about everything they dislike about them. The only time I hear any admiration for an individual Sioux person is if they are on the right side of the nickname issue and then they are paraded around like a show dog. Crap, I bet 99% of the students at UND can't name more than 5 living Sioux indians. Hehe, I'm in FULL RANT MODE NOW! BEWARE! :)

The central lie at the heart of the nickname debate is that UND only intends to honor the Sioux. They did not and do not - not any more than Devils Lake intended to honor Satan with their old nickname. UND folks wanted a fierce mascot that killed bison and they wanted one with local ties. In that respect, Sioux is perfect (it also gave them decades of fun dressing up as Indians). IMO, if UND intended to honor the Sioux, they would have had some Sioux on campus during their first 70 years of existence.

All UND is doing is using the Sioux name and a view of their history to market their athletic teams. The nearest analogy I can think of is if somebody used my family's name to market a product without our permission. To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill. I'm amazed at how patient the Standing Rock tribe has been on this issue. The sad part about this whole deal is that if UND had only sat down and really talked with the Sioux 20 years ago (instead of spending the last two decades talking down to them like the UND alumni association president is their Great White Father), I think they could have come to an understanding. The way people defended the nickname was, in my view, ten times more damaging than the actual use. It has revealed some real ugliness in a lot of people. Of course, they'll say that the ugliness wouldn't have occurred without this issue but that's BS.

Rant over.

[SirHinn]

When folks start generalizing about people based on race, I get very uncomfortable. If you want to generalize about the Sioux, please take it some place else. It is ugly. Yes, the Sioux have problems, big problems, in their communities. Well, guess what? So does all of North Dakota: for example, chronic obesity, binge drinking (seriously, when the hell our North Dakotans going to learn how to drink like adults?), xenophobia, and an aging and declining population. Those are very real problems but, you know what, I don't honor North Dakotans by going around badmouthing them. When I talk about North Dakotans, I stress their good qualities and defend them when they are attacked as being ignorant, intolerant hicks (and, yeah, it pisses me off to no end "coast folks" make assumptions about North Dakotans like that). Anyway, when the heck was the last time that a nickname supporter said anything about what they admire about the living Sioux? I sure hear a lot about everything they dislike about them. The only time I hear any admiration for an individual Sioux person is if they are on the right side of the nickname issue and then they are paraded around like a show dog. Crap, I bet 99% of the students at UND can't name more than 5 living Sioux indians. Hehe, I'm in FULL RANT MODE NOW! BEWARE! :)

The central lie at the heart of the nickname debate is that UND only intends to honor the Sioux. They did not and do not - not any more than Devils Lake intended to honor Satan with their old nickname. UND folks wanted a fierce mascot that killed bison and they wanted one with local ties. In that respect, Sioux is perfect (it also gave them decades of fun dressing up as Indians). IMO, if UND intended to honor the Sioux, they would have had some Sioux on campus during their first 70 years of existence.

All UND is doing is using the Sioux name and a view of their history to market their athletic teams. The nearest analogy I can think of is if somebody used my family's name to market a product without our permission. To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill. I'm amazed at how patient the Standing Rock tribe has been on this issue. The sad part about this whole deal is that if UND had only sat down and really talked with the Sioux 20 years ago (instead of spending the last two decades talking down to them like the UND alumni association president is their Great White Father), I think they could have come to an understanding. The way people defended the nickname was, in my view, ten times more damaging than the actual use. It has revealed some real ugliness in a lot of people. Of course, they'll say that the ugliness wouldn't have occurred without this issue but that's BS.

Rant over.

Well said Tony!! I'm curious to what people would think of a nickname such as the Fighting Americans? Would people be offended to a nickname such as the Nazi? It's just too bad UND doesn't have a relationship with the Sioux like FSU does with the Seminole tribe.

[BigBison]

Why is the relationship so bad with UND and the Sioux tribes? Why dont they have a relationship like the Seminole tribes and FSU? UND should of been working with the tribes years ago. What could UND do to honor the Sioux name and tribes?

[BigBison]

To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill.

Rant over.


So are you going to be giving the other UND a call? Watch out South Bend! ;)

[SirHinn]

Why is the relationship so bad with UND and the Sioux tribes? Why dont they have a relationship like the Seminole tribes and FSU? UND should of been working with the tribes years ago.

FSU has always had a very solid relationship with the tribe in Florida and always tried to honor them as best as possible. One of the many things FSU does is a seminole color guard participates in every commencement ceremony as well as a seminole junior princess participates in the Homecoming parade and crowns the Homecoming princess and chief. The University also works with the tribe in regards to the mascot and logo which I don't believe UND ever did. For the most part, the Seminole tribe approves of the name. Although the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma vastly disapproves of the name and is disappointed that college football allows this type of racism in the 21st century.

[tony]

So are you going to be giving the other UND a call? Watch out South Bend! ;)

Boy do I hate that analogy :(

Notre Dame was saying "This is who we are." UND was never a Sioux university, never had a Sioux president and it never served many (if any) Sioux students. It's the TOTAL opposite of Notre Dame.

http://www.amazon.com/Notre-Dame-Vs-Klan-Fighting/dp/0829417710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196333647&sr=8-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Fighting_Irish

I like the Fighting Irish nickname myself, especially given its history. They served Irish Catholics back when being Irish and Catholic was doubly unacceptable to much of society (including a majority of the folks living in the Red River Valley).

[BigBison]

Dont worry about it Tony I was just messin with yea, I understood your point. :)

[Bison bison]

When folks start generalizing about people based on race, I get very uncomfortable. If you want to generalize about the Sioux, please take it some place else. It is ugly. Yes, the Sioux have problems, big problems, in their communities. Well, guess what? So does all of North Dakota: for example, chronic obesity, binge drinking (seriously, when the hell our North Dakotans going to learn how to drink like adults?), xenophobia, and an aging and declining population. Those are very real problems but, you know what, I don't honor North Dakotans by going around badmouthing them. When I talk about North Dakotans, I stress their good qualities and defend them when they are attacked as being ignorant, intolerant hicks (and, yeah, it pisses me off to no end "coast folks" make assumptions about North Dakotans like that). Anyway, when the heck was the last time that a nickname supporter said anything about what they admire about the living Sioux? I sure hear a lot about everything they dislike about them. The only time I hear any admiration for an individual Sioux person is if they are on the right side of the nickname issue and then they are paraded around like a show dog. Crap, I bet 99% of the students at UND can't name more than 5 living Sioux indians. Hehe, I'm in FULL RANT MODE NOW! BEWARE! :)

The central lie at the heart of the nickname debate is that UND only intends to honor the Sioux. They did not and do not - not any more than Devils Lake intended to honor Satan with their old nickname. UND folks wanted a fierce mascot that killed bison and they wanted one with local ties. In that respect, Sioux is perfect (it also gave them decades of fun dressing up as Indians). IMO, if UND intended to honor the Sioux, they would have had some Sioux on campus during their first 70 years of existence.

All UND is doing is using the Sioux name and a view of their history to market their athletic teams. The nearest analogy I can think of is if somebody used my family's name to market a product without our permission. To make this analogy more apt, you'd have to assume that we are the only family with that name and that we have a foundation or something that speaks for the family. OK. Assuming all that, let's say that my family foundation objected to the depictions and usages of our name to market this product. You know what? At that point, it doesn't matter one bit what are reasons are or what problems we have in our family - the only way to honor us is to respect our wishes. However, if you patronize us and tell us your honoring us while at the same time making threats and disparaging our family... well, let's just say that you would some damn angry Irishmen up in your grill. I'm amazed at how patient the Standing Rock tribe has been on this issue. The sad part about this whole deal is that if UND had only sat down and really talked with the Sioux 20 years ago (instead of spending the last two decades talking down to them like the UND alumni association president is their Great White Father), I think they could have come to an understanding. The way people defended the nickname was, in my view, ten times more damaging than the actual use. It has revealed some real ugliness in a lot of people. Of course, they'll say that the ugliness wouldn't have occurred without this issue but that's BS.

Rant over.

You're Irish!

What a bunch of potato eating, Guiness drinking, overly-religious Leprechauns.

[Bison bison]

FSU has always had a very solid relationship with the tribe in Florida and always tried to honor them as best as possible. One of the many things FSU does is a seminole color guard participates in every commencement ceremony as well as a seminole junior princess participates in the Homecoming parade and crowns the Homecoming princess and chief. The University also works with the tribe in regards to the mascot and logo which I don't believe UND ever did. For the most part, the Seminole tribe approves of the name. Although the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma vastly disapproves of the name and is disappointed that college football allows this type of racism in the 21st century.

The stupid thing about Florida State is that the likeness of their mascot/logo is plains indian, not seminole.

[Bison bison]

They served Irish Catholics back when being Irish and Catholic was doubly unacceptable to much of society (including a majority of the folks living in the Red River Valley).

Can't believe you're really Irish! :p

[The KKK used to be alive and well in North Dakota anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic. http://www.prairiepublic.org/programs/datebook/bydate/04/0904/090704.jsp

[UTH]

Guess Iam going to have to rally all the Norweigns and protest outside the Vikings office in Eden Praire...

I really respect what you have to say about the Vikings. As a Norwegian, I personally get a great feeling of satisfaction when the Minnesota Vikings do well, and I believe that it does reflect positively upon us nordics. I really enjoy cheering for the Vikings at the Metrodome.

However, I have extreme issues with what the Nazis have done to my Norwegian heritage. Hitler hijacked many symbols that would, were it not for his symbology, stand out front in representing Norwegian cultural and religious history. In another post, I used the SchutzStaffel "http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/SchutzStaffelSS.png" symbol to depict an allegedly racist organization. Heck, Adolf Hitler created his own "Waffen http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/SchutzStaffelSS.png Wiking" Division. Runic symbols are now by definition racist. That really pisses me off, because I think that Runes are cool. Adolf Hitler and his people used my heritage to present a greater image for themselves. That's a hijacking. Where is the outrage with that? This is where I take the analogy.

Nobody is safe from cultural hijackings and I won't criticize the tribes for their opposition. I'm very happy that it isn't a Bison problem.

[SirHinn]

I really respect what you have to say about the Vikings. As a Norwegian, I personally get a great feeling of satisfaction when the Minnesota Vikings do well, and I believe that it does reflect positively upon us nordics. I really enjoy cheering for the Vikings at the Metrodome.

However, I have extreme issues with what the Nazis have done to my Norwegian heritage. Hitler hijacked many symbols that would, were it not for his symbology, stand out front in representing Norwegian cultural and religious history. In another post, I used the SchutzStaffel "http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/SchutzStaffelSS.png" symbol to depict an allegedly racist organization. Heck, Adolf Hitler created his own "Waffen http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/indio_rojas/Smilies/SchutzStaffelSS.png Wiking" Division. Runic symbols are now by definition racist. That really pisses me off, because I think that Runes are cool. Adolf Hitler and his people used my heritage to present a greater image for themselves. That's a hijacking. Where is the outrage with that? This is where I take the analogy.

Nobody is safe from cultural hijackings and I won't criticize the tribes for their opposition. I'm very happy that it isn't a Bison problem.

Good post, well said!